danger in long term serm use

therocker187

New member
I found this bit of info done by researchers, and my question is if anyone has heard of what kind of damage could come from using serms for far more than 3-9 months? i cant find anything about dangers of serm use for very long periods of time.




Department of Pediatrics, University of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. [email protected]

OBJECTIVES: To assess the efficacy of the anti-estrogens tamoxifen and raloxifen in the medical management of persistent pubertal gynecomastia. STUDY DESIGN: Retrospective chart review of 38 consecutive patients with persistent pubertal gynecomastia who presented to a pediatric endocrinology clinic. Patients received reassurance alone or a 3- to 9-month course of an estrogen receptor modifier (tamoxifen or raloxifene). RESULTS: Mean (superdrol) age of treated subjects was 14.6 (1.5) years with gynecomastia duration of 28.3 (16.4) months. Mean reduction in breast nodule diameter was 2.1 cm (95% CI 1.7, 2.7, P <.0001) after treatment with tamoxifen and 2.5 cm (95% CI 1.7, 3.3, P <.0001) with raloxifene. Some improvement was seen in 86% of patients receiving tamoxifen and in 91% receiving raloxifene, but a greater proportion had a significant decrease (>50%) with raloxifene (86%) than tamoxifen (41%). No side effects were seen in any patients. CONCLUSION: Inhibition of estrogen receptor action in the breast appears to be safe and effective in reducing persistent pubertal gynecomastia, with a better response to raloxifene than to tamoxifen. Further study is required to determine that this is truly a treatment effect.

PMID: 15238910 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
Tamoxifen = liver cancer (at least in rats). Not something I'd want to take for 3-9 months.

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Rhyno said:
Tamoxifen = liver cancer (at least in rats). Not something I'd want to take for 3-9 months.

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Tamoxifen-related liver cancer is a bit overstated, and I really think that part of it is that certain companies have used this research to hawk (relatively) ineffective OTC PCT products. First of all, from the study you posted:

"At 2.8 mg/kg, no hepatoproliferative changes were found."

Secondly, rats have rates of glucoronidation in the liver that are some 40x less than in humans. This process is what eliminates the 4-hydroxy metabolite of tamoxifen, which is what actually is a carcinogen. Note that the large human studies indicate fatty liver as a side effect, rather than liver cancer

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That said, be careful and very limited with SERMs. I cannot stress enough to take taurine with these chemicals.

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OnTheRoadTo said:
Letro seems to be a consistently better choice for gyno reduction, as well.
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I thought letro was more in the case of prevention. from what I understand, long term steady dosing of a serm is the only slight hope for gyno reversal once it has calcified, such as puberty gyno.
idk tho, im not an expert and im not certain.
 
There is nothing special about SERMs - they block estrogen from acting on receptors, but they themselves have weak estrogenic activity. They are still on the receptors exerting a much weaker effect than estradiol.

Letro craters your estrogen to near-zero....which is why it is dangerous, but also effective: the receptors are bare.
 
OnTheRoadTo said:
There is nothing special about SERMs - they block estrogen from acting on receptors, but they themselves have weak estrogenic activity. They are still on the receptors exerting a much weaker effect than estradiol.

Letro craters your estrogen to near-zero....which is why it is dangerous, but also effective: the receptors are bare.
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so how would you suggest stacking the two?
 
I used clomid for 10 weeks, in attempt to kick up my T levels. No problems here...had blood tests on it at 4 weeks marks, no liver elevations.
 
therocker187 said:
out of some of the protocols I have seen across the boards they usually range from 4 to 6 weeks. this guy is suggesting just 1.
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If you actually read the site, it clearly states that those 6 days are to ramp to a dose which you stay at until the gyno is resolved, and then you taper off.
 
OnTheRoadTo said:
If you actually read the site, it clearly states that those 6 days are to ramp to a dose which you stay at until the gyno is resolved, and then you taper off.
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ah ur right. i dint read one of the paragraphs as i thought it was pertaining to one of the scenarios that was not my case. So I assume the length of taking letro still shouldnt go above 6 weeks?
 
I had my gyno from Propecia (2% risk, and I was one go figure). The second I noticed it, I got on Nolva and went to see my doctor. However to get proper blood work, I got off of Nolva for a week or two then took blood test.

All numbers came fine. But the gyno kept on increasing. It went on for a year where I would get on Nolva when it flared again. And it was happening for no reason, I wasn't even working out and was not on anything.

Left side was much smaller than the right one. Left was about silver dollar shaped like an unrolled condom (thick edges, thin middle). Right one was significantly bigger and much more spread with the same unrolled condom shape under the nipple.

I used Nolva for 3 months with no benefit. It prevented it from getting worse, but did not reverse it. I even got flares while on Nolva and had to up it to 40mg at times. Again, the weird thing is that test results were fine.

I used Ralox for few weeks hoping it would be better. I should use it longer, I understand, but I was getting tired of this and I was not seeing any kind of results

I followed the Letro instructions in the link above about 10 days ago. The gyno is shrinking in size now. Left side is now like half an almond in size and shape. Right side is about 1/3rd or 1/4th of what it was. Still bigger than what the left side was initially though, but it is moving in the right direction.

I don't think it will go away completely. I will cycle off it in about 3 weeks (I have to go on a business trip for a week, so a good break point) and jump on Ralox to prevent a rebound. I plan on running Letro again for 4 to 6 weeks after I get off of Ralox and take few weeks break.

So to summarize, Letro is working with about 70% improvement in 10 days on gyno that has been with me for 2 years.

I am about to start breaking the dosage to 1.5ml before bed and 1ml 12 hours later. I have a feeling I will respond better to that.

Hope this helps.
 
fadi said:
I had my gyno from Propecia (2% risk, and I was one go figure). The second I noticed it, I got on Nolva and went to see my doctor. However to get proper blood work, I got off of Nolva for a week or two then took blood test.

All numbers came fine. But the gyno kept on increasing. It went on for a year where I would get on Nolva when it flared again. And it was happening for no reason, I wasn't even working out and was not on anything.

Left side was much smaller than the right one. Left was about silver dollar shaped like an unrolled condom (thick edges, thin middle). Right one was significantly bigger and much more spread with the same unrolled condom shape under the nipple.

I used Nolva for 3 months with no benefit. It prevented it from getting worse, but did not reverse it. I even got flares while on Nolva and had to up it to 40mg at times. Again, the weird thing is that test results were fine.

I used Ralox for few weeks hoping it would be better. I should use it longer, I understand, but I was getting tired of this and I was not seeing any kind of results

I followed the Letro instructions in the link above about 10 days ago. The gyno is shrinking in size now. Left side is now like half an almond in size and shape. Right side is about 1/3rd or 1/4th of what it was. Still bigger than what the left side was initially though, but it is moving in the right direction.

I don't think it will go away completely. I will cycle off it in about 3 weeks (I have to go on a business trip for a week, so a good break point) and jump on Ralox to prevent a rebound. I plan on running Letro again for 4 to 6 weeks after I get off of Ralox and take few weeks break.

So to summarize, Letro is working with about 70% improvement in 10 days on gyno that has been with me for 2 years.

I am about to start breaking the dosage to 1.5ml before bed and 1ml 12 hours later. I have a feeling I will respond better to that.

Hope this helps.
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what dide u start your letro dosing at? im going to be dealing with 2.5mg tablets so Im gona have to plan out how I will cut them up and dose them.
 
I started with:
day 1: 1.5
day 2: 2
day 3: 2.5

I would break it in half for day 1, then take full pill on day 2. I'm not sure the exact reason behind incrementing the dose up to 2.5.
 
Fadi,
so as soon as you got gyno symptoms, you immediately stopped the propecia, correct?
 
Of course. At first, it was pea size lump. I stopped propetia and jumped on Nolva. about 4 or 5 weeks later i did lab tests.
 
I'm still on it, I believe it is day 13 or so. I started my second vial last night. I will run it for another 10 days then PCT.
 
speed kills said:
and then u coasted at 2.5 for a while?
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sorry missed this question. Yes I am staying at 2.5 for the duration. towards the end, I will drop the dose and add a SERM to prevent estrogen rebound.

As an update, the left side is much smaller than I first posted. I still feel the lump, but I have to really look for it to find it. Right side, which was more profound and troubling for me is much smaller now. It dissapeared from one side, more of a C shape now instead of the O shape and shrinking. It is smaller than what the left side was when I started Letro.
 
fadi said:
sorry missed this question. Yes I am staying at 2.5 for the duration. towards the end, I will drop the dose and add a SERM to prevent estrogen rebound.

As an update, the left side is much smaller than I first posted. I still feel the lump, but I have to really look for it to find it. Right side, which was more profound and troubling for me is much smaller now. It dissapeared from one side, more of a C shape now instead of the O shape and shrinking. It is smaller than what the left side was when I started Letro.
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how u planning to taper off the letro?
are your joints really sore?
 
speed kills said:
how u planning to taper off the letro?
are your joints really sore?
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Sore? no, I am not noticing any kind of sides. I will taper it back down the same way, 2.5, 2.0, then 1.5. I will be taking Ralox while I taper off and continue it for couple of weeks after I discontinue Letro.
 
fadi said:
Sore? no, I am not noticing any kind of sides. I will taper it back down the same way, 2.5, 2.0, then 1.5. I will be taking Ralox while I taper off and continue it for couple of weeks after I discontinue Letro.
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so when u decide to get off the letro ur going to go from 2.5 to 1.5 in 3 days? or am i misunderstanding? wouldnt that be too steep of a taper almost like going cold turkey.
 
fadi said:
i will be on ralox to counter the rebound. We'll see in 10 days :)
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I like this concept of using the AI to attack the gyno and the serm to prevent the rebound. What made you consider only 10 days after letro cessation? I'm thinking longer duration. It's also possible that I misread your plan :think:
 
I figured estrogen will be back to normal within 7 to 10 days. Test is already at a normal level. I have about 90 days worth of Ralox and Nolva on hand, so if I need to run it longer I will, but you're right I should research the PCT more to know the best length of PCT.

As quick update, nothing changes over the last 2 to 3 days. I am noticing the lumps to appear bigger at night than during the day. It might be only in my head though. I do take Letro before bedtime
 
maybe something to do with estrogen being higher at night than other times of the day. not sure if that would make that happen. i have a small case from puberty, nothing big. but i have thought the same as well about at night.
 
But Letro works by lowering estrogen levels to undetectible levels in the body, so there should be no extra estrogen at night given that it has a half life of 2 to 4 days. That is why I am thinking maybe it is in my head. Someone more experienced can shed some light on that.

That was the initial idea behind splitting my dose, which I ended up not doing due to the convenience of single dose. I will see if anyone has split the dose before and their experience with split dose.
 
celc5 said:
I like this concept of using the AI to attack the gyno and the serm to prevent the rebound. What made you consider only 10 days after letro cessation? I'm thinking longer duration. It's also possible that I misread your plan :think:
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what would u say the typical letro cycle length should be? 5-6 weeks?
 
speed kills said:
what would u say the typical letro cycle length should be? 5-6 weeks?
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Oh i am not an expert on this. Personally, I don't mind running it for 8 weeks or little longer. It is designed for cancer patients so it is designed to run for very long time although some sides may appear after a while.

I will run it for another week and start my PCT. For now, I moved my dose to earlier. I plan on taking it no later than 8pm instead of my usual bedtime to see if that makes a difference on how it feels at night, but I don't think it will be "cured" completely anymore.

I might try Epistane next after taking a month or two off for 5 to 6 weeks then PCT. Lets see what that will do.
 
fadi said:
Oh i am not an expert on this. Personally, I don't mind running it for 8 weeks or little longer. It is designed for cancer patients so it is designed to run for very long time although some sides may appear after a while.

I will run it for another week and start my PCT. For now, I moved my dose to earlier. I plan on taking it no later than 8pm instead of my usual bedtime to see if that makes a difference on how it feels at night, but I don't think it will be "cured" completely anymore.

I might try Epistane next after taking a month or two off for 5 to 6 weeks then PCT. Lets see what that will do.
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so the sides are temporary tho right?

yea i have been wondering about when letro should be taken. I usually take ralox around 11:30 pm so Im assuming I should just take it at the same time.
 
I'm doing fine, nothing really changed over the past few days. I am thinking this is the best I will get out of it, but I will run it for few more days before I start tapering down.

Reading on others experience with the rebounding, I am planning to spend more time tapering it down and run much longer PCT, about 3 to 4 weeks.
 
fadi said:
I'm doing fine, nothing really changed over the past few days. I am thinking this is the best I will get out of it, but I will run it for few more days before I start tapering down.

Reading on others experience with the rebounding, I am planning to spend more time tapering it down and run much longer PCT, about 3 to 4 weeks.
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so would u say the letro at least gave u a 50% reduction on each side?
 
Oh yes, left side is almost gone. I still feel very small lump, but I would have to look for it to find it.
Right side is down about 70%. Right side was much bigger and more noticable than the left side. Now it is much much smaller. I can live with it, but I was hoping to shrink it more.
 
fadi said:
Oh yes, left side is almost gone. I still feel very small lump, but I would have to look for it to find it.
Right side is down about 70%. Right side was much bigger and more noticable than the left side. Now it is much much smaller. I can live with it, but I was hoping to shrink it more.
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thats good to hear, glad to hear a success story from using letro.

anyone know if this would be a good idea for a 6 week cycle of letro? the mg amount i do may not be to the exact since Im going to be using 2.5mg tablets and Im not sure how i could divide them up to these exact dosages. but it would be around something like this.
.5mg - 1mg - 1.5mg - 1.5mg - 1mg - .5mg ? perhaps I should dose higher at the peak of the cycle?
 
also, i have been on ralox for a while now, and it seems that the lumps have gotten softer than they used to be. does this mean that they have weakened or something, and if so would this mean that letro would have a greater chance of doing its job of reducing the size of the lumps???
 
fadi said:
Ralox can work on gyno symptoms. Letro is suposed to be better
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yea i heard its helpful to stack the two, which is what Im going to try.

Im hoping the ralox has softened it up by now, so by the time I run the letro, it will be more effective. either way, I going to be on the ralox for at least 8-9 months. its only a small lump on each side, so hopefully it will go away, but Im keeping realistic goals and I just hope for a good size reduction.
 
Well, it might be helpful but most likely not. Letro can reduce estrogen production to undetectible levels at a 2.5 dose so Ralox may not have much estrogen to work on anyway. But you could try it if you have enough Ralox to use for PCT when you discontinue the Letro.

As far as toxicity or sides, I did not look into that so you might want to look and see if there is a reason not to stack them.
 
fadi said:
Well, it might be helpful but most likely not. Letro can reduce estrogen production to undetectible levels at a 2.5 dose so Ralox may not have much estrogen to work on anyway. But you could try it if you have enough Ralox to use for PCT when you discontinue the Letro.

As far as toxicity or sides, I did not look into that so you might want to look and see if there is a reason not to stack them.
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well I have been on 60mg a day for the ralox, and after the letro, i was just going to carry through with the 60 mg dosing of ralox. I will check the toxicity of stacking the two.
 
I got almost rid of mine using letro, I was on it for 35 days until I satrted to feel so crappy overall I stopped using it. Lump was tiny by around day 25 and didnt shrink much more if at all till day 35. I took ralox for 30 days after. Now I have to warm you guys, currently it's way bigger then it ever was, got bouts of rebounds over the 6 months after all of this. It's terrible, you need a very long smart plan to avoid the mayor rebound letro cuases. Also it wreaks havoc on your health, everytime I serm longer then 3 weeks I'm pissing blood, doesnt matter which I take, low dose torem seems mildest and mosty effective. Tried to get surgery, not happening unfortunately.

Currently considering a different approach, 30 days of letro and maybe use DHT to counter the rebounds. Any intelligent ideas on that?
 
I haven't experienced the sides you have, but my cycle was shorter. I did experience bad acid reflux issues that seem to subside now that I am off it. Not sure if they were related, we'll see. I decided to end my cycle short because I wanted to give my body some rest and the acid reflux was terrible for me. I might do a 30 day cycle at some point.
I tapered it down 2.0, 1.5, 1, .5, .5 then off it. I took Nolva 40mg during the tapering down and 2 days after then 20mg for 4 more days. I stopped taking Nolva (last dose was the night before) so we'll see how the rebound hits me.

I haven't looked into DHT and Letro, so can't say.
 
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