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Fenugreek A Waste of $$$$?

marco wolf said:
But aren't most of those soy products also fermented?

In the US, unfermented soybean oil is used in alot of products, which I've read can be a problem. Any thougjhts on this, narraboth.
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hi marco

Actually most part of soy product intake in my country is unfermented.
A traditional breakfast is soymilk, and normally you will have at least twice tofu (bean curd) a week. They are all not fermented. (bean curd is not fermented) About soy oil, it is the most common cooking oil in my country, my mum used it all the time. Now more families use sunflower oil or olive oil because they are more stable, but if you eat out, it's still mainly soy oil.

Anyway, I have read a study saying fermented soy bioisoflavon got higher bioavailbility, so if the worry existes, it should be more on chinese/japanese/korean side.

Some people also suggest there is racial difference. But the study is that white women respond to soy isoflavon less well than asian. So base on this study, chinese men should still suffer more gyno from soy, and white men won't, even they take the same amount of soy. However it's still not the case.

You can argue that racial difference work in reverse way on men and women (although i don't believe that), you will need to test by yourself then. For me, I will keep eating lots of soy product like how I did at home :)
 
Jimbo15 said:
My thoughts, avoid soy.
:usa:
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Why... when there has been a litany of carefully controlled painstakingly performed multi-faceted clinicals completed on Soy refuting any claim that it unfavorably modulates hormones (estrogen) in males, and was actually demonstrated to be highly bio-available and worthy of inclusion in any ambitious athlete's supplement stratagem (unless you're referring to some inferior non isolated version of Soy not meant to serve adjunct to a healthy eating protocol)?
 
narraboth said:
hi marco

Actually most part of soy product intake in my country is unfermented.
A traditional breakfast is soymilk, and normally you will have at least twice tofu (bean curd) a week. They are all not fermented. (bean curd is not fermented) About soy oil, it is the most common cooking oil in my country, my mum used it all the time. Now more families use sunflower oil or olive oil because they are more stable, but if you eat out, it's still mainly soy oil.

Anyway, I have read a study saying fermented soy bioisoflavon got higher bioavailbility, so if the worry existes, it should be more on chinese/japanese/korean side.

Some people also suggest there is racial difference. But the study is that white women respond to soy isoflavon less well than asian. So base on this study, chinese men should still suffer more gyno from soy, and white men won't, even they take the same amount of soy. However it's still not the case.

You can argue that racial difference work in reverse way on men and women (although i don't believe that), you will need to test by yourself then. For me, I will keep eating lots of soy product like how I did at home :)
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Thanks, narraboth.

I have miso a few times a week, so I'm not overly worried about soy products, but I also don't go overboard with them.
 
There are many studies on both sides of the soy debate. I personally stay away from it. Not sure anyone will win this debate but it seems to come up over and over again. The latest conclusion I've heard is that is does negatively affect testosterone levels but the amount is very small. I need all the help I can get with test levels so I stay away from it.
 
Outstanding said:
Why... when there has been a litany of carefully controlled painstakingly performed multi-faceted clinicals completed on Soy refuting any claim that it unfavorably modulates hormones (estrogen) in males, and was actually demonstrated to be highly bio-available and worthy of inclusion in any ambitious athlete's supplement stratagem (unless you're referring to some inferior non isolated version of Soy not meant to serve adjunct to a healthy eating protocol)?
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Like wasted said, there are studies on both sides of the debate so we can likely argue all day about it.

My diet is fine without it, so why go out of my way to add something that we aren't sure is actually beneficial? It seems to be a substitute for many things, I'll just stick to the real stuff.
 
Biological Value

BV = Nitrogen Retained divided by Nitrogen absorbed X 100
= (dietary N) - (F - Fm) + (U - Ue) divided by (dietary N) + (F - Fm) X 100

Soy 74 (worst)
Egg white 77
Casein 88
Milk 91
Whole egg 100
Raw whey 104
Egg and milk 118.5
Whey and potatoes 134
Engineered Whey Protein 157 (best)
 
Jimbo15 said:
Like wasted said, there are studies on both sides of the debate so we can likely argue all day about it.

My diet is fine without it, so why go out of my way to add something that we aren't sure is actually beneficial? It seems to be a substitute for many things, I'll just stick to the real stuff.
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I don't use Soy Protein and never have, I'm not a proponent of it by any means; just citing some recent findings in several hormone specific studies that were conducted on human males. I have not however, come across a study that demonstrated an influx in estrogen production or circulation, especially with regards to a significant enough amount to elicit any marked side effects, where Soy protein is concerned.

I agree however that Whole Food and Whey is optimal - unless you read Scott's (Author L Rea) latest 'research' (read: pimp-fest) revolving around his earth-shattering 99% anabolic human protein pills! (rolls eyes)
 
I have ingested several bottles of NOW fenugreek as well as MACA. Never an extract. I can tell you NOW FEnugreek will;
double your load size=lots of pleasure,
Make your man juice smell like Maple Syrup from Canada,
increase libido to the point where you can pump up your love muscle inside your lady at free will. (She willlove this)

To accomplish this, you must cycle minimum 3-5 grams per day (empty stomach is best). Try 4 days on, 3 days off or maybe every other day.

One day I will try the extracts, but for now they seem expensive/in relation to results received.

I use Fenu and Maca as part of my PCT regimens. Latest was a SPAWN cycle which shuts you down HARD if you haven't tried it.
(I also use Cel Formestane)

I have a feeling there is a lot of PLACEBO effects on these boards. Ie: endurance gains and large strength gains from a FENU extract seems far fetched and exaggerated IMHO. (I could be wrong)
 
sluggy said:
Absolutely, avoid soy.

No good reason to eat it. It's not meant for human consumption.
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ignorant racist.
only those who eat hamburger and drink milk are human?

You can keep eating your American or whatever food, no matter how bad it tastes or how unhealthy it is; but it's totally unacceptable to hint a plant which more than 50% population take as main protein source an animal food.

The idea of 'some race eat some food thus they are less masculin' is also very dangerous and stupid.
 
narraboth said:
ignorant racist.
only those who eat hamburger and drink milk are human?

You can keep eating your American or whatever food, no matter how bad it tastes or how unhealthy it is; but it's totally unacceptable to hint a plant which more than 50% population take as main protein source an animal food.

The idea of 'some race eat some food thus they are less masculin' is also very dangerous and stupid.
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I'd say this post is a bit overboard. He didn't attack a race, so how is he a racist? You also assume that because he said something that goes against how you believe that he is an American. So this means that anyone who has an opinion not in line with yours is an American? And all Americans are ignorant racists?

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celc5 said:
I share your suspicions
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I think the placebo effect is a double edged sword. A lot of people like to cast off significant gains as placebo effect on effective supplements.

Now I do not doubt there is a certain amount of placebo effect for certain supplements, but one need be cautious to quickly discount an individuals gains on the grounds of placebo effect.

Is there a certain amount of hype found on any board concerning some products? Of course. But i do see a concerning trend in people quickly dismissing gains as placebo on effective supplement. Moderate to small gains can be considered placebo. Significant gains are rarely placebo within a trained athlete. And the longer an athlete has been training and on supplements the less likely they are to report placebo effects.

The realm of natural supplementation is riddled with lackluster supplement and since they cannot compare to hormonal supplements, placebo effect is the biggest counter argument to staying natural. Once someone has done a hormonal cycle, it is hard to compare it to anythign other then another hormonal. Therefore herbals seem placebo in comparison.


All in all point being, neither clec or lucy are wrong in stating there are people who report certain benefits as placebo....but in my opinion numbers dont lie and when individuals are putting up significant gains over a prolonged period(not a one workout wonder) then placebo effect can be ruled out.
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
I think the placebo effect is a double edged sword. A lot of people like to cast off significant gains as placebo effect on effective supplements.

Now I do not doubt there is a certain amount of placebo effect for certain supplements, but one need be cautious to quickly discount an individuals gains on the grounds of placebo effect.

Is there a certain amount of hype found on any board concerning some products? Of course. But i do see a concerning trend in people quickly dismissing gains as placebo on effective supplement. Moderate to small gains can be considered placebo. Significant gains are rarely placebo within a trained athlete. And the longer an athlete has been training and on supplements the less likely they are to report placebo effects.

The realm of natural supplementation is riddled with lackluster supplement and since they cannot compare to hormonal supplements, placebo effect is the biggest counter argument to staying natural. Once someone has done a hormonal cycle, it is hard to compare it to anythign other then another hormonal. Therefore herbals seem placebo in comparison.


All in all point being, neither clec or lucy are wrong in stating there are people who report certain benefits as placebo....but in my opinion numbers dont lie and when individuals are putting up significant gains over a prolonged period(not a one workout wonder) then placebo effect can be ruled out.
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Well said.
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
I think the placebo effect is a double edged sword. A lot of people like to cast off significant gains as placebo effect on effective supplements.

Now I do not doubt there is a certain amount of placebo effect for certain supplements, but one need be cautious to quickly discount an individuals gains on the grounds of placebo effect.

Is there a certain amount of hype found on any board concerning some products? Of course. But i do see a concerning trend in people quickly dismissing gains as placebo on effective supplement. Moderate to small gains can be considered placebo. Significant gains are rarely placebo within a trained athlete. And the longer an athlete has been training and on supplements the less likely they are to report placebo effects.

The realm of natural supplementation is riddled with lackluster supplement and since they cannot compare to hormonal supplements, placebo effect is the biggest counter argument to staying natural. Once someone has done a hormonal cycle, it is hard to compare it to anythign other then another hormonal. Therefore herbals seem placebo in comparison.


All in all point being, neither clec or lucy are wrong in stating there are people who report certain benefits as placebo....but in my opinion numbers dont lie and when individuals are putting up significant gains over a prolonged period(not a one workout wonder) then placebo effect can be ruled out.
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:goodpost:
 
Fenugreek definitely has sexual side effects. I am a staunch believer that it helped my PCT as well.
 
On testopro right now and libido is way up....Sorry to hear it had the opposite effect on you buddy.

The I3C is derived from Cruciferous veggies and research has shown it to be a possible anticarcinogenic, antioxidant, and anti-atherogenic. It has also been shown to support healthy lipid and hormone levels in both men and women. In one study it shows the ability to lower estrogen levels....which in turn helps prevent estrogen induced cancers. I dont believe it to regulate androgen receptors and believe it is in Testopro to help regulate positive hormonal balance keeping estrogen low in the presence of the higher levels of free testosterone.


The reason it may kill your libido is that estrogen does play a role in libido. When your test raises very high in relation to your estrogen this may negatively effect your libido. This may be a possible answer to why it killed your libido. Now dont get me wrong testosterone is the main indicator for libido in males....but in an environment that has a big deficit of estrogen, SOME men will experience a decrease in libido.

Try popping some Perform and see if that remedies the lack of libido. Perform def got my engines revving on high.
 
zombiemuscle said:
Testopro killed my libido as well on account of the I3C which down regulates androgen receptors.
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I have never been able to uncover any science or study that demonstrates or even alludes to androgen receptor down regulation; and have only seen several write-ups across the 'net propagating the exact opposite. Androgen receptors do not respond to exogenous introduction of hormones/binding like beta receptors respond to antagonist additives such as Clenbuterol or Ephedrine.
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
On testopro right now and libido is way up....Sorry to hear it had the opposite effect on you buddy.

The I3C is derived from Cruciferous veggies and research has shown it to be a possible anticarcinogenic, antioxidant, and anti-atherogenic. It has also been shown to support healthy lipid and hormone levels in both men and women. In one study it shows the ability to lower estrogen levels....which in turn helps prevent estrogen induced cancers. I dont believe it to regulate androgen receptors and believe it is in Testopro to help regulate positive hormonal balance keeping estrogen low in the presence of the higher levels of free testosterone.


The reason it may kill your libido is that estrogen does play a role in libido. When your test raises very high in relation to your estrogen this may negatively effect your libido. This may be a possible answer to why it killed your libido. Now dont get me wrong testosterone is the main indicator for libido in males....but in an environment that has a big deficit of estrogen, SOME men will experience a decrease in libido.

Try popping some Perform and see if that remedies the lack of libido. Perform def got my engines revving on high.
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I'd imagine it's the same reason ATD kills most guy's libido too...
 
Outstanding said:
I have never been able to uncover any science or study that demonstrates or even alludes to androgen receptor down regulation; and have only seen several write-ups across the 'net propagating the exact opposite. Androgen receptors do not respond to exogenous introduction of hormones/binding like beta receptors respond to antagonist additives such as Clenbuterol or Ephedrine.
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This study tells of I3C and all of its benefits. It also tells of the androgen receptor down regulation, but the article describes it as a benefit as well due to prostate cancer prevention.

As a bodybuilder or anyone looking to gain muscle, strength, or mass, you would not want to down regulate any androgen receptors.
 
The fact that is slightly lowers DHT is somewhat worrying, but I have been taking Isa Test (which has testofen in it) and I have had improved energy and mood, and slightly improved libido.
 
zombiemuscle said:
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This study tells of I3C and all of its benefits. It also tells of the androgen receptor down regulation, but the article describes it as a benefit as well due to prostate cancer prevention.

As a bodybuilder or anyone looking to gain muscle, strength, or mass, you would not want to down regulate any androgen receptors.
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I only saw references to estrogen receptors in the link you posted. Besides, my entire point was that androgen receptors do not respond to concomitant endogenous/exogenous circulation of supraphysiological hormone levels by down regulating, in the manner beta(2)-adrenergic receptors react when encountered with an antagonist.

If I may borrow a paragraph offered by Mr. Bryan H: "One misunderstood principle of steroid physiology is the concept of androgen receptors (AR), sometimes called "steroid receptors", and the effects of steroid use on their regulation. It is commonly believed that taking androgens for extended periods of time will lead to what is called AR "down regulation". The premise for this argument is; when using steroids during an extended cycle, you eventually stop growing even though the dose has not decreased. This belief has persisted despite the fact that there is no scientific evidence to date that shows that increased levels of androgens down regulates the androgen receptor in muscle tissue." Source: Invalid Link Removed

Your entire supposition concerning I3C could very well be accurate - because now you are causing a synthetic challenge and resulting down regulation through chemical manipulation of our good old androgen receptor (AR), also known as NR3C4 (nuclear receptor subfamily 3, group C, member 4) if you're of the big-word persuasion ;)
 
I'm picking up some phytotest to add to my stack, log is here Invalid Link Removed so I will keep everyone updated on my take on the phytotest. Also I have a bottle of perform, I use it when I want to make an impression on a first date, very very good stuff, gotta love AI, great company.
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
I think the placebo effect is a double edged sword. A lot of people like to cast off significant gains as placebo effect on effective supplements.

Now I do not doubt there is a certain amount of placebo effect for certain supplements, but one need be cautious to quickly discount an individuals gains on the grounds of placebo effect.

Is there a certain amount of hype found on any board concerning some products? Of course. But i do see a concerning trend in people quickly dismissing gains as placebo on effective supplement. Moderate to small gains can be considered placebo. Significant gains are rarely placebo within a trained athlete. And the longer an athlete has been training and on supplements the less likely they are to report placebo effects.

The realm of natural supplementation is riddled with lackluster supplement and since they cannot compare to hormonal supplements, placebo effect is the biggest counter argument to staying natural. Once someone has done a hormonal cycle, it is hard to compare it to anythign other then another hormonal. Therefore herbals seem placebo in comparison.


All in all point being, neither clec or lucy are wrong in stating there are people who report certain benefits as placebo....but in my opinion numbers dont lie and when individuals are putting up significant gains over a prolonged period(not a one workout wonder) then placebo effect can be ruled out.
Click to expand...

:bigok:
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
I think the placebo effect is a double edged sword. A lot of people like to cast off significant gains as placebo effect on effective supplements.

Now I do not doubt there is a certain amount of placebo effect for certain supplements, but one need be cautious to quickly discount an individuals gains on the grounds of placebo effect.

Is there a certain amount of hype found on any board concerning some products? Of course. But i do see a concerning trend in people quickly dismissing gains as placebo on effective supplement. Moderate to small gains can be considered placebo. Significant gains are rarely placebo within a trained athlete. And the longer an athlete has been training and on supplements the less likely they are to report placebo effects.

The realm of natural supplementation is riddled with lackluster supplement and since they cannot compare to hormonal supplements, placebo effect is the biggest counter argument to staying natural. Once someone has done a hormonal cycle, it is hard to compare it to anythign other then another hormonal. Therefore herbals seem placebo in comparison.


All in all point being, neither clec or lucy are wrong in stating there are people who report certain benefits as placebo....but in my opinion numbers dont lie and when individuals are putting up significant gains over a prolonged period(not a one workout wonder) then placebo effect can be ruled out.
Click to expand...

Good post!
 
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