Is Rear Delt Row a good substitute for rear delt raises?

DerickVonD

DerickVonD

Well-known member
I was wondering this because I was thinking of switching from rear delt raises to rear delt rows. The movement of rear delt rows just seems easier for me.
 
Will the rear delt's be stimulated? Yes, but I wouldn't perform them as a substitution to rear raises. I feel that rear raises puts more emphasis on the rear delts.

The rowing movement also recruits your infraspinatus, Rhomboids, and Teres muscles to a greater degree.
 
lonewolf0420 said:
Will the rear delt's be stimulated? Yes, but I wouldn't perform them as a substitution to rear raises. I feel that rear raises puts more emphasis on the rear delts.

The rowing movement also recruits your infraspinatus, Rhomboids, and Teres muscles to a greater degree.
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Not to mention traps and biceps. I agree, a fine exercise for rear delts, especially if you take a relatively close grip, but not a substitute if "sculpturing" is your goal.
 
hmm would a lying rear delt raise be effective(Invalid Link Removed That may be easier for me especially since I recently sprained my neck well re-sprained it, it never quite healed. I have to also work my lateral delts like this Invalid Link Removed. I find that for some reason no matter the weight I have trouble lifting the weight up at my side but slightly in front I don't have a problem.
 
I dont see how those lying rear delt raises are a good excercises, and bringing the weight straight up is useless.

I do these with dumbbells: Invalid Link Removed

But I find these isolate the best: Invalid Link Removed
 
I still love doing a superset of Arnold presses with rear delt laterals.

Just make sure any rear delt isolation work is done as strictly as possible.
 
ItsHectic said:
I dont see how those lying rear delt raises are a good excercises, and bringing the weight straight up is useless.

I do these with dumbbells: Invalid Link Removed

But I find these isolate the best: Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...

Well those are what I was talking about doing earlier instead of the rear delt raises.
 
VolcomX311 said:
Not to mention traps and biceps. I agree, a fine exercise for rear delts, especially if you take a relatively close grip, but not a substitute if "sculpturing" is your goal.
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Well my main concern was not sculpting even though that is important but strength which is most important to me. My shoulders just sometimes give me trouble. I might just try doing them lying down. I'll have to work my laterials laying down like in the one exercise because like I said I have trouble lifting weight directly at my sides and it feels as if something is shifting in my shoulder when I do. having the weight forward in front of my thigh or a little in front of my side I can do. I don't know maybe I have weird shoulder joints.
 
DerickVonD said:
Well my main concern was not sculpting even though that is important but strength which is most important to me. My shoulders just sometimes give me trouble. I might just try doing them lying down. I'll have to work my laterials laying down like in the one exercise because like I said I have trouble lifting weight directly at my sides and it feels as if something is shifting in my shoulder when I do. having the weight forward in front of my thigh or a little in front of my side I can do. I don't know maybe I have weird shoulder joints.
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You should try face pulls, and see how those feel. They are a very underrated exercise.

Here's a really good article on shoulder stability Invalid Link Removed. Down, toward the bottom of the page, there is a video of a guy performing face pulls. That method is very effective.
 
DerickVonD said:
Well my main concern was not sculpting even though that is important but strength which is most important to me. My shoulders just sometimes give me trouble. I might just try doing them lying down. I'll have to work my laterials laying down like in the one exercise because like I said I have trouble lifting weight directly at my sides and it feels as if something is shifting in my shoulder when I do. having the weight forward in front of my thigh or a little in front of my side I can do. I don't know maybe I have weird shoulder joints.
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I feel you on that. If your gym has immovable flat/incline benches. Do them laying chest first against the incline bench and do the rows with a french bar, grab the french bar at the peaks. The grip is nice & narrow, the form is strict, its at a good incline (set it at its lowest degree), it saves your lumbar and grabbing at french bar is easy on the wrist as oppose to a straight bar.

The bench has to be immovable or you'll endo. Best of luck.
 
lonewolf0420 said:
You should try face pulls, and see how those feel. They are a very underrated exercise.

Here's a really good article on shoulder stability Invalid Link Removed. Down, toward the bottom of the page, there is a video of a guy performing face pulls. That method is very effective.
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Word.

You beat me to it. I actually like to do them both every other week to really strengthen the all important rear delt/lat area.
 
Well I'm not sure if or when I'm getting a gym membership. Also with the rear delt raises, I can do them but it's hard to keep proper form. I was thinking of doing this untill I fix my imbalance or until I can go to the gym.
Military Press (3 sets)
Scaption (1 set)
lying side lateral raises (1 set)
Rear Delt Row (1 set)
DB Upright row (2 sets)
BB Shrugs (3 sets)
DB Shrugs (2 sets)

Also after reading the article I was thinking of adding pushup at the end of my workout on chest days. How does the above sound? I can't do facepulls unti lI join a gym and idk if I'm joining anytime soon.
 
DerickVonD said:
Well I'm not sure if or when I'm getting a gym membership. Also with the rear delt raises, I can do them but it's hard to keep proper form. I was thinking of doing this untill I fix my imbalance or until I can go to the gym.
Military Press (3 sets)
Scaption (1 set)
Rear Delt Row (1 set)
DB Upright row (2 sets)
BB Shrugs (3 sets)
DB Shrugs (2 sets)

Also after reading the article I was thinking of adding pushup at the end of my workout on chest days. How does the above sound? I can't do facepulls unti lI join a gym and idk if I'm joining anytime soon.
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Get yourself some workout "bands", and use them for doing face pulls.
 
lonewolf0420 said:
Get yourself some workout "bands", and use them for doing face pulls.
Click to expand...

If I add them in will the above workout plan still work only with face pulls implemented, or would you change that routine. I'm just trying to get a solid shoulder day down.
Military Press (3 sets)
Scaption (1 set)
lying side lateral raises (1 set)
Rear Delt Row (1 set)
DB Upright row (2 sets)
BB Shrugs (3 sets)
DB Shrugs (2 sets)
facepulls (1 set)
something like that?
 
Hey guy I'm glad to announce I can do the lateral raises now, after doing scaptions for afew weeks. I still can not do rear delt raises yet, but I guess until then I'll have to do rear delt rows. I know you guys said rear delt rows arn't a sub for the raises, but will the rear delt rows add any definition, or will it just add pretty much just strength without much definition? I'm going to have to do the rows until I can do the rear delt raises.

Edit: I'm also able to do upright rows better, but with a shoulder width grip. I'm still confused on them though some say they are bad, other say they are fine.
 
Best rear delt movement I have found:

YOu will need a heavier weight than you do rear flys with.

Bent overat your hips to just above a 45 degree angle - let the weight fall where it does which will be in front of your chest and inside of your shoulders.

add a slight angle you your elbows, maybe 15 degrees, basically like a fly.

Staying bent over keep your arms in the fixed angle and pull up and out with your rear delts. the weight will come to the outside of your hips, you can play with how wide you pull them out but it is mostly back and definitely comes to around your hip. the weight does not break the plane of your body but the top half the the dumbell might.

when lowering it again let gravity pull it down and in, obviously resisting it a bit.

You can use some english or rock to get the weight started at the bottom and to keep your balance but its just enough to keep your balance...

You can go HEAVY with practice. It does not burn as bad as some other movements but the heavy weight makes them grow.
 
Okay guys I found the problem. I was doing delt raises like this Invalid Link Removed
I didn't know you could do them like this
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1uZD-I3qw8"]YouTube- Instructional Fitness - Dumbbell Bent Over Lateral Raises[/nomedia]
which is a much easier way than turning your arms as you go up.
 
Do them how you feel them best and can handle the most weight without hurting yourself. For me that is the one I tried to explain (sorry no name for it so I can't find pics, sort of copied it from someone then modified) or seated with my abdomen expanded for stability and leaning over with some english (like seated on a military press bench with the feet stops).

I've seen that rear delts are better with more weight even if form isn't text book BS
 
DerickVonD said:
Okay guys I found the problem. I was doing delt raises like this Invalid Link Removed
I didn't know you could do them like this
Invalid Link Removed
which is a much easier way than turning your arms as you go up.
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the 2nd example isnt that great. The hands are rotated to follow the shoulders natural movement, and rotating your hands inwards at the top so your thumbs point down helps isolate the rear delt from the medial delt.
I dont think Dave is parallel enough with the ground, seems he is hitting lower traps a bit there when he turns to the side, 45degrees definetly isnt enough, 90 degrees is ideal, I would probably bend my knees heaps and rest my torso on my thighs and do them. Infact the example Dave is doing is bad, between not rotating the arms enough and not being parallel enough with the ground, he is hitting lower traps and even medial delt more than he is hitting rear delt.


If you really wanna see what rear delt isolation feels like, get into a bent over row position on a bench and do unilateral rear delt flies with a straight elbow and light weight and hold for a couple seconds at the top, keeping your hand inline with your shoulder and torso parallel with the ground.
 
The other night I thought I would try Rear Delt rows on my cable machine, with a rope attachment. Didn't go too heavy. I made the movement more about feeling the muscle work. MAN, did that jack up my delts. Definitely going to add these in to my routines.
 
ItsHectic said:
the 2nd example isnt that great. The hands are rotated to follow the shoulders natural movement, and rotating your hands inwards at the top so your thumbs point down helps isolate the rear delt from the medial delt.
I dont think Dave is parallel enough with the ground, seems he is hitting lower traps a bit there when he turns to the side, 45degrees definetly isnt enough, 90 degrees is ideal, I would probably bend my knees heaps and rest my torso on my thighs and do them. Infact the example Dave is doing is bad, between not rotating the arms enough and not being parallel enough with the ground, he is hitting lower traps and even medial delt more than he is hitting rear delt.


If you really wanna see what rear delt isolation feels like, get into a bent over row position on a bench and do unilateral rear delt flies with a straight elbow and light weight and hold for a couple seconds at the top, keeping your hand inline with your shoulder and torso parallel with the ground.
Click to expand...

So is this good?
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfdFnJwV7Cw"]YouTube- Rear Delt Flies[/nomedia]
 
I dont like using cables for delt work(at least fly type movements) because there is just as much force at the beginning of the movement as there is at the end meaning your working the rotator cuff a lot. Although cables shouldnt make a difference with row type movements should it?


That very fit for an american guy couldnt do upright rows correctly but the flies he is doing in that video are alright apart from his elbows being too close to his torso which makes it more like bent over rows, upper arm should be 90 degrees to the torso which makes the exercise a lot harder due to isolation.
 
ItsHectic said:
the 2nd example isnt that great. The hands are rotated to follow the shoulders natural movement, and rotating your hands inwards at the top so your thumbs point down helps isolate the rear delt from the medial delt.
I dont think Dave is parallel enough with the ground, seems he is hitting lower traps a bit there when he turns to the side, 45degrees definetly isnt enough, 90 degrees is ideal, I would probably bend my knees heaps and rest my torso on my thighs and do them. Infact the example Dave is doing is bad, between not rotating the arms enough and not being parallel enough with the ground, he is hitting lower traps and even medial delt more than he is hitting rear delt.


If you really wanna see what rear delt isolation feels like, get into a bent over row position on a bench and do unilateral rear delt flies with a straight elbow and light weight and hold for a couple seconds at the top, keeping your hand inline with your shoulder and torso parallel with the ground.
Click to expand...

Okay, what I did today was bend over at about a 30 degree angle, holding two dumbbells in my hand, I turned my wrists so that my thumbs and the end of the dumbbells were facing each other and then I did rear delt flies like that. Does that sound good? I only had 15lbs but considering I'm a beginner I think I did well. I could really feel my rear delts getting worked.
 
DerickVonD said:
Okay, what I did today was bend over at about a 30 degree angle, holding two dumbbells in my hand, I turned my wrists so that my thumbs and the end of the dumbbells were facing each other and then I did rear delt flies like that. Does that sound good? I only had 15lbs but considering I'm a beginner I think I did well. I could really feel my rear delts getting worked.
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The movements that I felt in my rear delts were never the ones that added mass for me. the ones that I used the most weights on were. For instance, with rear delt flys I do them seated leaning over and can handle 40 with good form. With the movement I tried to describe I can handle 85 and it shows in the mass growth. I fell into the trap of "feel" with my rear delts and now they are lagging and I need to go back to weight.
 
goonstopher said:
The movements that I felt in my rear delts were never the ones that added mass for me. the ones that I used the most weights on were. For instance, with rear delt flys I do them seated leaning over and can handle 40 with good form. With the movement I tried to describe I can handle 85 and it shows in the mass growth. I fell into the trap of "feel" with my rear delts and now they are lagging and I need to go back to weight.
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Okay. Just to clarify, did you understand the movement I was describing? I didn't know if I did a good job explaining it. Basically the grip was like this
Invalid Link Removed
Only I was standing bent over and doing both arms at once. I wanted to know if this was a good exercise I was doing.
 
ha not like that at all.... Its almost like a dumbell row but without moving the elbow joint. Bent over with 110% arms or so (just over 90%) with your palms facing in and bring the weight back towards your hips. It is a very short movement, you don't even let it go down to far to de-load or stretch hence you can rack up the pounds. Works REALLY well at the end of a set of reverse laterals like do the reverse laterals (I use my own looser form, sitting down, bent over your legs with some english) then stand up and burn out on these.

It is closer to the very end of a pull over but with bent arms than anything else.

Honestly though if your bent over row gets strong enough most people will brow their rear delts but I am not that lucky.
 
DerickVonD said:
Okay, what I did today was bend over at about a 30 degree angle, holding two dumbbells in my hand, I turned my wrists so that my thumbs and the end of the dumbbells were facing each other and then I did rear delt flies like that. Does that sound good? I only had 15lbs but considering I'm a beginner I think I did well. I could really feel my rear delts getting worked.
Click to expand...

I would of went paralell to the ground, otherwise your involving side delts.


goonstopher, with that excercise you described in post 17 did you mean this but not bent over as much? Invalid Link Removed
 
haha it is a strange bastardized cross between a row (without rowing) and the end of a pull over (but bent over).

Its not like tis some secret weapon but I really like it.
 
I find it a big coincidence you happened to discover this yourself and its also listed on exrx under poor form, it doesnt look like the type of excercise you just decide to do, obviously it works well for you and others must feel the same way if its on exrx, anyhow its just there to demonstrate these points:
When elbows travel under shoulders:
Latissimus Dorsi takes the majority of the load
Shoulder extension
Rear delts are still exercised
Forfeits the purpose of even performing an auxiliary isolated movement
Isolation
Lats can be exercised more efficiently with rows and pull-downs
 
ItsHectic said:
I find it a big coincidence you happened to discover this yourself and its also listed on exrx under poor form, it doesnt look like the type of excercise you just decide to do, obviously it works well for you and others must feel the same way if its on exrx, anyhow its just there to demonstrate these points:
When elbows travel under shoulders:
Latissimus Dorsi takes the majority of the load
Shoulder extension
Rear delts are still exercised
Forfeits the purpose of even performing an auxiliary isolated movement
Isolation
Lats can be exercised more efficiently with rows and pull-downs
Click to expand...

Done "right" you don't feel it in the lats at all. Yes it can be done FOR lats but that is with much lighter weights, that is an actual movement I have seen in some programs. If you keep your lats tucked in vs flared out and change the bent in the elbow it changes the movement a lot. also not extending as far down on the negative. It is very much something you need to feel out but it does 0000% for my lats when done the way I am picturing. For me, my rear delts feel movements lower down, none of this level with the shoulder crap or above the head. I always went to mid/upper back and this movement which is to the waste. Also the link you left is some cheese "owned" star trek thing not anything pertaining to this.
 
That persons lower back is rounded and so are their shoulders, when they come all the way down their lats will have to flar out and thus get contracted back to make the weight move. With the lower back rounded and shoulder kept further back and not doing all the way down you CAN isolates the rear delt. Also the elbow movement on there looks weird... That is in the right league though.
 
ItsHectic said:
I know what your talking about, have you tried this, I think you might like it: Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...

I have horrible shoulders, one of which is surgically repaired to have restricted range of motion so that really won't be in the works ha.

I also like the lay on your side on a bench and do one handed rear flyes, need to go lighter.
 
You dont look like you have shoulder problems man, you got pretty nice delts.

Here is a more detailed guide on rear delts for anyone who needs it LOL
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxLhH73VgwA&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube- Lying Rear Delt Rows at Home[/nomedia]
 
ItsHectic said:
You dont look like you have shoulder problems man, you got pretty nice delts.

Here is a more detailed guide on rear delts for anyone who needs it LOL
Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...

if I do rear delt rows I rather do them standing bent over. After reading all these posts, I'm probably just going to continue to do rear delt rows or eated rear delt raises.
 
No one has mentioned Arnold Presses I've noticed. I guess they wouldn't be a good idea to add in though if I'm already doing military presses.
Edit: never someone did mention them. I've wanted to try them for a long time, but the routine I'm doing is working so far, besides me having a solid rear delt exercise.
 
Try face pulls with your palms facing in rather than down. It really works to stabilize your shoulder, prevents injuries and works the rear delts. It is a great movement to help on many fronts
 
One thing I noticed is rear delt rows seem too easy. when I started I thought I'd try a db rear delt row with 20 lbs, I wound up using 30 lbs the first time ever doing them.
 
I was wondering, while the other external rotators (infraspinatus, teres minor) assist the posterior deltoid in transverse extension (rear delt rowing), wouldn't the long head of the tricep help the posterior deltoid with hyperextension since it also attaches up on the scapula?

I wonder how elbow bend plays into this. Like, if we kept the elbow straight (kind of like the top of a triceps kickback) would this make the head be overactively insufficient? Whereas the muscle would be longer if the elbow bends and more able to help the posterior deltoid hyperextend.

Edit: I think it's fine as long as you can handle how it will tax other muscles. A bent elbow means we can pull more weight, so that's more for the lower back to support if standing, and more compression on the chest (and difficulty breathing) if laying the chest on a bench.
That and the biceps might get tired if we started pulling in close, probably self-correcting with dumbbells since they won't flex as much.
 
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