Dumbhick, I don't disagree with most of what you said except Ais being safer than SERMS. People routinely get themselves into trouble using Ais. For one thing, without proper testing it is VERY easy to suppress estrogen too low using Ais--and this carries a host of problems. People often see estrogen as an absolute negative, when in reality it has positive atributes as well. For example, Clomid will act as an estrogen antagonist at the breast tissue, but as an estrogen agonist at the bone and in terms of endothilial function and cholesterol levels; whereas Ais can, and will, send your blood lipids into the ****ter! If you want an expert opinion on this see what Seth Roberts has to say about the use of Ais.
Of course your points concerning steroids in general are valid, nevertheless my point remains that the primary reason people experience gyno from substance such as P-Plex and M-Drol THAT DON"T AROMATIZE is because of their effects on SHBG. Also, Ais will do nothing to address the estrogen that was already there (and bound to SHBG) long before you ever statred your cycle, through the natural aromitization of testosterone. This estrogen is now going to be unbound with the use of P-Plex or M-Drol. If you're sensitive to the effects of estrogen you will need a SERM to control this.
As to the use of Ais on cycle, I used "real" AAS before things began getting too ****in sketchy legally. Back when I ran cycles there was never this obsession with Ais like there is today. Guys used low-dose SERMS on cycle with intermittent Hcg, followed by Clomid tapered down during PCT--that's it. Ocassionally some guys would use low-dose Ais on cycle--but not often. Surprisingly--or not--guys weren't developing "gyno" left and right like they seem to today!
Crowbar
Actually, I got most of my information from Seth Robert's Anabolic Pharmacology book (sitting on my desk right now).
I don't really agree with all of his SERM-steroid stack approaches.
I am completely aware of the negative side effects of driving estrogen too low, and the fact that many people still think that no estrogen = a good thing. Of course this is not true. One way to monitor indirectly whether your AI use is suppressing estrogen too much is to monitor your cholesterol at home using an at-home test machine and LDL, HDL, and trigylceride strips, like my friend does. If your cholesterol really starts to get out of control, beyond what is typical of steroids, then it is probably a safe assumption that you need to back off of the AI dose/frequency. And there is no substitute for on cycle and post-cycle bloodwork by a professional. Of course, few people do this...(I do)
The safety issue I mentioned had to do with the direct side effects/toxicity of AIs versus SERMs. SERMs are inherently more toxic than AIs, period, over and out. Tamoxifen is carcinogenic and has caused secondary malignancies in cancer patients. Most SERMs have varying degrees of ocular toxicity, ESP clomid, but also nolva and torem as well. The only major concern with AIs in general is to not drive estrogen so low that you develop estrogen-deficient secondary side effects such as hyperlipidemia (probably the major concern though estrogen supports sex drive and bone health, etc).
I still maintain that using an AI from start to finish on cycle will prevent gyno if done properly. I follow with a SERM, but it ends up just coinciding with PCT, so it limits the amount of time that I am on SERMs which is a good thing. I stick with this approach when needed b/c there is no way that I would ever run a SERM for 10 weeks in a row (6 week cycle + 4 week PCT). It is true that an AI cannot make estrogen that is freed from the bound state magically disappear-I think I said this above (it will circulate and can bind to the ER yes), BUT if your body does not continue to produce significant amounts of estrogen (say by using .5mg ed of arimidex for any cycle, AROMATIZING OR NOT), then significant amounts of estrogen will NOT be produced and in turn won't be newly bound by SHBG only to be released later. If the bound-estrogen pool is not being actively replenished by aromatase, then estrogen is not going to be continually dumped from SHBG into the circulating state b/c it won't even be there to be dumped after a while; perhaps after the initial dump of estrogen due to SHBG displacement-I don't know exactly when pre-cycle, bound estrogen would no longer be an issue once AI use has commenced. I think it will take more than one "spurt" of free estrogen in the circulating state to produce any symptoms of gyno.
What Seth's book doesn't tell you is much about SERM toxicity versus AI toxicity as it should. But he only spent half a page at most on each SERM and AI so what do you expect. If you want more info, read the drug mfg's monograms at
Invalid Link Removed and maybe the Dark Side article on SERMs at
Invalid Link Removed. AIs need to be used with care, so you can't be sloppy like most people are with SERM doses, but when used carefully I maintain that they are much safer drugs than SERMs. Greater care is needed in using AIs on non-aromatizing cycles since a smaller, less frequent dose is likely fine.
BTW, it's funny you mentioned an obsession with AIs today. What I have seen on this forum lately has been an unhealthy obsession with SERMs (get a SERM, get clomid, u need nolva, serm, google serm, etc). They might be "safer" for Joe Blow who doesn't know what bloodwork is but knows what Clomid is (to some extent, being a moron and all). I've also seen an obsession with prolactin antagonists (get cab, get bromo, get p5p, get a job, etc) and I can refer you to your own book reference to remind you that Seth Roberts is pretty adamant about not using them due to their severe side effects. Not only him, but doctors on other forums are of a similar opinion as to their severe side effects not being worth the risk of using them (I know you weren't arguing for/against prolactin agents, but this is just what I have seen lately). I haven't seen as much of an obsession with AIs. They are very potent unlike SERMs, so some intelligence and blood monitoring is needed obviously. Not everyone using anabolics has intelligence to spare, however.
That is my somewhat educated opinion and personal cycle approach; to each his own.
... And depending on your diet, it can either be a wet or dry compound..
