first cycle log: Epi meets GVT

celc5 said:
Agreed with changing routine for pct. Also, do that again AFTER pct. Gotta keep things exciting and motivating to maintain gains. A+ for a well thought out plan :thumbsup:

IMO 40mg is the sweet spot for epithios. I ran 30/30/40/40. The 2nd week at 30 wasn't all that productive. If I run an epithio again, it will go 30/40 and then 40, 50, or maybe even 60ish depending on how I felt. I like the mildness of the compound and a relatively easy recovery. Nice compound IMO.
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Personally 60mg was a little much for me. The side effects began to get a bit noticeable at that range. 50mg was awesome and plenty of the hormone.
 
GMG760 said:
Personally 60mg was a little much for me. The side effects began to get a bit noticeable at that range. 50mg was awesome and plenty of the hormone.
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Agreed. I wouldn't go into it blindly of course :cheers:

What sides did you have? I'd guess some libido loss and more back pumps at that dosage. Maybe even BP issues?
 
celc5 said:
Agreed. I wouldn't go into it blindly of course :cheers:

What sides did you have? I'd guess some libido loss and more back pumps at that dosage. Maybe even BP issues?
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Maybe i'm unique but i've seen an increase in my libido since i've been on epi - no negative sides to date and i'm starting 60mg this week.
 
thatll happen when your test levels raise. its quite the norm. no after weeks 3-5 you may notice libido loss. i prefer sustain alpha to help with libido issues. id also recommend DTH
 
I've felt NO sides to date, except for one morning I got a moderate back pump from my morning incline treadmill walking, hella random haha. Libido has been normal, and on a few occasions I've felt it go on a wild upswing, but otherwise nothin.

So if 40mg treats me fine would you guys recommend bumping to 50mg for the final week, or is that really not necessary given my weight/experience etc?
 
DarkHalf,
actually I'm in the same boat with epithios. The libido increase was PHENOMENAL even at week 4 with 40mg. Testicular atrophy was really really mild at that point...

To clarify, I just was sort of hypothesizing that libido might dip a bit with a higher dosage. I personally don't know if that would happen or not, and it seems that experiences vary frequently regarding libido while on epithio compounds.

Spades,
that's a good level headed question.

If sides aren't a problem at 40mg and you reach a plateau, I see no reason not to bump to 50mg. However, if you're still gaining lean mass and strength is still going up, then there'd be no reason to increase. See my logic?
 
celc5 said:
DarkHalf,
actually I'm in the same boat with epithios. The libido increase was PHENOMENAL even at week 4 with 40mg. Testicular atrophy was really really mild at that point...

To clarify, I just was sort of hypothesizing that libido might dip a bit with a higher dosage. I personally don't know if that would happen or not, and it seems that experiences vary frequently regarding libido while on epithio compounds.

Spades,
that's a good level headed question.

If sides aren't a problem at 40mg and you reach a plateau, I see no reason not to bump to 50mg. However, if you're still gaining lean mass and strength is still going up, then there'd be no reason to increase. See my logic?
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got it. Its like fatloss; only cut cals enough to keep losing weight, no need to go overboard and risk negative consequences. thanks man
 
celc5 said:
Agreed. I wouldn't go into it blindly of course :cheers:

What sides did you have? I'd guess some libido loss and more back pumps at that dosage. Maybe even BP issues?
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Yea, libido loss, back pumps, slight shrinkage, but what ended it for me that last week was the BP. at 60mg my BP was not where it should have been.
 
crowpass said:
thatll happen when your test levels raise. its quite the norm. no after weeks 3-5 you may notice libido loss. i prefer sustain alpha to help with libido issues. id also recommend DTH
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How many cycles have you ran?
 
celc5 said:
DarkHalf,
actually I'm in the same boat with epithios. The libido increase was PHENOMENAL even at week 4 with 40mg. Testicular atrophy was really really mild at that point...
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I'm on week 6 - I went 20/30/30/40/50/60. I haven't even seen testicular atrophy.....my boys are still huge :head:
 
TheDarkHalf said:
I'm on week 6 - I went 20/30/30/40/50/60. I haven't even seen testicular atrophy.....my boys are still huge :head:
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Look at the age in your profile and look at the age in mine :rant: It makes a difference IMO :laugh: The under 22 or 23 crowd are the ones that got away with M1t and Superdrol cycles without libido loss and good recoveries... I still see it with aggressive stacks and mdrol runs. I suppose the epithio response for longer cycles and higher dosages is the same, just not as pronounced as the aforementioned compounds :think:
 
I would say that the epithio compound is about half of what the Superdrol compound is as far as side effects are concerned. I found myself having similar side effects 3 weeks into Mdrol as I did 6 weeks into epi. This is all just personal speculation of course, I didn't get bloodwork done on my epistane cycle.
 
Aight, here's today's and yesterday's sessions:

yesterday:
A1. Bench 135x 10x10 got all reps of all sets, unhhhh son!
A2. Bent BB row 125 9x10, 1x9 only missed on on this biatch too, felt good
B1. Pec dec 80x12-12-12 squeezed in peak contraction for a sec on each rep
B2. lat pd 165x10-10-9 same, squeezed

Overall felt pretty good, I'm steadily bumpin the reps/weights from week to week so I'm happy with that.

Today:
A1. squat 190x 10-10-10-10-9-8-7-8-8-7
A2. standing calf raise 80x 8x10, 2x9
B1. Back ext 35x10-10-10-10-9
B2. incline situp +30x12-12-12-11-10

Man, I'm lookin forward to PCT just so I dont have to do these damn squats anymore... one more session of legs thank GOD

I'll post back in with a weight tomorrow to see if its still doin what its supposed to do!
 
I've been watching this and - wow - great strength gains! I see you put on some weight too - do you see noticeable differences in muscularity (are shoulders rounding out? quads getting a more sweep? etc?) or is it hard to see where the weight is going?

Also wanted to ask you a question - after reading up on GVT, what's recommended is working out Monday/Wednesday/Friday and then resting Tuesday/Thursday and the whole weekend. I see you aren't following this. Instead, you're working out two days in a row, resting one, working out one more day, resting one, and then repeating the cycle. Did you decide to do this because you didn't want to be on an EPI cycle and only working out 3 of every 7 days, or is it because you felt recovery would be quicker while on EPI, or...? If the latter, do you feel the rest periods are adequate, given how brutal GVT is supposed to be?

Thanks.
 
hey guys, sorry for fallin off the face of the earth for a week, work got INSANE. I decided to end my cycle yesterday (about 3 days short) for a couple reasons:
1. I wasn't gaining more lean weight even though I was steadily upping cals
2. My best bud turns 21 in 3 and a half weeks and I want to be done with PCT so I can share a few drinks on his Bday
3. I just honestly wasn't seeing the gains I was hoping for, even though I was busting my ass in the gym and my diet was pretty damn solid. The gains were better than I could have done naturally in the past 3.5 weeks, sure. But they weren't what I expected from my first cycle.

Anyways, there was some great parts about this cycle, which I'll put up in the final review back on page 1. I also took some after pics, so i'll edit the before/afters and get them up sometime over the weekend.
 
Hugo Danner said:
I've been watching this and - wow - great strength gains! I see you put on some weight too - do you see noticeable differences in muscularity (are shoulders rounding out? quads getting a more sweep? etc?) or is it hard to see where the weight is going?

Also wanted to ask you a question - after reading up on GVT, what's recommended is working out Monday/Wednesday/Friday and then resting Tuesday/Thursday and the whole weekend. I see you aren't following this. Instead, you're working out two days in a row, resting one, working out one more day, resting one, and then repeating the cycle. Did you decide to do this because you didn't want to be on an EPI cycle and only working out 3 of every 7 days, or is it because you felt recovery would be quicker while on EPI, or...? If the latter, do you feel the rest periods are adequate, given how brutal GVT is supposed to be?

Thanks.
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I noticed a difference in my shoulders, quad width, and brachialis. Look for my final review/pics when I get it up in the next couple of days- gotta get back to work for now.

Also, every article I've seen on GVT from poliquin himself recommends the split I chose- the only real difference between his version and mine was I put less emphasis on tris and more on shoulders in the shoulder/arms day.

I also have decent recovery rate, I'm usually ready to work a bodypart again after 4 days. There was one or two times on cycle where I was still sore in my upper body so I'd take an extra day off between shoulders/arms and chest/back. I think I only did that once though, last weekend.
 
You only ran epi for 3.5 weeks? You had like maybe 1.5 weeks of the compound kicking in. The bigger gains should be in weeks 3-5. IMO you shortchanged yourself.
 
GMG760 said:
You only ran epi for 3.5 weeks? You had like maybe 1.5 weeks of the compound kicking in. The bigger gains should be in weeks 3-5. IMO you shortchanged yourself.
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x2 -I am wrapping up my first epi cycle (and first PH/DS Cycle) and ran it for 6 weeks. No side effects and some noticeable gains.
 
Stick with the routine, it works. I've done it. By the end you will be spent. Take a week off and return to "normal" training. I've had excellent results by going into a functional hypertrophy protocol. If you actually follow Poliquin, you'll know what I mean.

Charles is extreme, yet delivers. Good luck.
 
spadesofaces said:
I noticed a difference in my shoulders, quad width, and brachialis. Look for my final review/pics when I get it up in the next couple of days- gotta get back to work for now.

Also, every article I've seen on GVT from poliquin himself recommends the split I chose- the only real difference between his version and mine was I put less emphasis on tris and more on shoulders in the shoulder/arms day.

I also have decent recovery rate, I'm usually ready to work a bodypart again after 4 days. There was one or two times on cycle where I was still sore in my upper body so I'd take an extra day off between shoulders/arms and chest/back. I think I only did that once though, last weekend.
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Hey, thanks for the reply. I found it helpful, as I have been skeptical of GVT in general and because what I've read about GVT has been conflicting on some points.

On the general point - I've been skeptical of GVT because GVT doesn't hit every muscle or every muscle head. So it seems GVT would not promote building a symmetrical, well-proportioned body. But I think the answer here is that GVT is a shock-the-muscles program for overall growth.

On the conflicting info. stuff - I've read that each body part should receive 5 days of rest, yet the published routines state you should workout only on M/W/F. This means each body part gets 7 days of rest. And most GVT articles only include two shaping exercises for shoulders, while the GVT premise is to do the biggest bang-for-buck exercise for each body part.

I know tooling around with the published program is supposedly a no-no, but I've been thinking about trying GVT but flipping the legs and shoulders/arms days. This would allow an every-other-day workout program, cutting rest time for each bodypart to 6 days (more than the recommended 5 days, but less than the published routine's 7 days). The routine would look like this: M-chest/back; W - shoulders/arms; F - legs; Sunday - chest; etc.). What do you all think?
 
Direwolf said:
Stick with the routine, it works. I've done it. By the end you will be spent. Take a week off and return to "normal" training. I've had excellent results by going into a functional hypertrophy protocol. If you actually follow Poliquin, you'll know what I mean.

Charles is extreme, yet delivers. Good luck.
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Could you take a look at my note right above and LMK what you think? You seem to know/understand GVT - would appreciate your input also on the conflicts I've mentioned, the revised routine I mentioned, etc.
 
aahhh man, you cut it too short, epi takes 2 weeks just to kick in. also, a cytogainer shake in the morning does wonders. i also find it nearly impossible to eat enough to gain weight when "on". 2 cytogainer shakes a day really made an enormous difference and i just drank them at work over the course of an hour each and still dropped bf.

cheers,
 
Hugo,
I appreciate your enthusiasm for detail to the program. At the same time, people have been successful on all sorts of GVT variations. So I think your proposed plan is just fine.

I only ran each muscle group once per week:
M: Quads/Shoulders
W: Hams/Back/Bis
F: Chest/Tris

IF I could manipulate my work and personal life more, I'd run 3on,1off with whatever split I came up with. Many popular programs suggest muscle recovery only take about 48 hours, there's no set in stone rule. Do what works for you.
 
celc5 said:
Hugo,
I appreciate your enthusiasm for detail to the program. At the same time, people have been successful on all sorts of GVT variations. So I think your proposed plan is just fine.

I only ran each muscle group once per week:
M: Quads/Shoulders
W: Hams/Back/Bis
F: Chest/Tris

IF I could manipulate my work and personal life more, I'd run 3on,1off with whatever split I came up with. Many popular programs suggest muscle recovery only take about 48 hours, there's no set in stone rule. Do what works for you.
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Yeah, 48 hours wouldn't cut it for me on major body parts like quads and back. Going balls-to-the-wall for 10 serious muscle tearing sets would mean soreness for an easy three days. Ironically, I can do whatever I want to delts, yet the only exercise that consistently causes them real soreness is Smith machine presses. I honestly don't get it!

Thanks for the insight on GVT...
 
this is an interesting workout style. i may try it a day or two just to shock my muscles when i feel a plateau coming. ill be following your post too, since they say epi is similar to havoc and i just started havoc
 
dustin06MR said:
this is an interesting workout style. i may try it a day or two just to shock my muscles when i feel a plateau coming. ill be following your post too, since they say epi is similar to havoc and i just started havoc
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Havoc and Epi are the exact same - epi is the name of the compound you are taking.

I hate eating asparagus....but i do it anyways. And I eat it RAW.
 
Hugo Danner said:
Yeah, 48 hours wouldn't cut it for me on major body parts like quads and back. Going balls-to-the-wall for 10 serious muscle tearing sets would mean soreness for an easy three days. Ironically, I can do whatever I want to delts, yet the only exercise that consistently causes them real soreness is Smith machine presses. I honestly don't get it!

Thanks for the insight on GVT...
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When I ran GVT a month or 2 ago, I couldn't walk normally for about 5 days after the first 10x10 squat. But each week thereafter, recovery improved by 1-2 days. Consider low frequency early on but be open minded to increase frequency for the next few weeks. I pretty much crashed after 5 weeks. With my searches before running GVT, the consensus seemed to be more like 6 weeks though.
 
TheDarkHalf said:
Havoc and Epi are the exact same - epi is the name of the compound you are taking.

I hate eating asparagus....but i do it anyways. And I eat it RAW.
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Actually aren't they SLIGHTLY different? I have heard both. You'll get the same results with the same dose with both so it doesn't really matter if the chemical nomenclature is different... And again, I am not even sure that it IS different, but I thought I read that somewhere... just playing devil's advocate....
 
GMG760 said:
Actually aren't they SLIGHTLY different? I have heard both. You'll get the same results with the same dose with both so it doesn't really matter if the chemical nomenclature is different... And again, I am not even sure that it IS different, but I thought I read that somewhere... just playing devil's advocate....
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This thread was really good for clearing this answer up

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Basically, they are the same - but yet they aren't the same.
 
celc5 said:
When I ran GVT a month or 2 ago, I couldn't walk normally for about 5 days after the first 10x10 squat. But each week thereafter, recovery improved by 1-2 days. Consider low frequency early on but be open minded to increase frequency for the next few weeks. I pretty much crashed after 5 weeks. With my searches before running GVT, the consensus seemed to be more like 6 weeks though.
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I read somewhere that doing 10x10 is a waste for advanced trainers - as there isn't enough intensity generated- and to jump to the 10x6 regimen. Can tell you I dabbled a little and did 10x10 for chest and bis/tris and see that 10x10 didn't create the deep ache.

Anyone have an opinion on whether GVT or traditional is better when doing an EPI cycle?
 
Hugo Danner said:
I read somewhere that doing 10x10 is a waste for advanced trainers - as there isn't enough intensity generated- and to jump to the 10x6 regimen. Can tell you I dabbled a little and did 10x10 for chest and bis/tris and see that 10x10 didn't create the deep ache.

Anyone have an opinion on whether GVT or traditional is better when doing an EPI cycle?
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Is it possible that you started with less than 50% of your 1rm?
Maybe your rest between sets was too long?

On the other hand, if you're accustomed to working really fast, then maybe it wouldn't be intense enough for ya :think: I couldn't pick my arms up for 2 days after my first 10x10 chest day.
 
Hugo Danner said:
Hey, thanks for the reply. I found it helpful, as I have been skeptical of GVT in general and because what I've read about GVT has been conflicting on some points.

On the general point - I've been skeptical of GVT because GVT doesn't hit every muscle or every muscle head. So it seems GVT would not promote building a symmetrical, well-proportioned body. But I think the answer here is that GVT is a shock-the-muscles program for overall growth.

On the conflicting info. stuff - I've read that each body part should receive 5 days of rest, yet the published routines state you should workout only on M/W/F. This means each body part gets 7 days of rest. And most GVT articles only include two shaping exercises for shoulders, while the GVT premise is to do the biggest bang-for-buck exercise for each body part.

I know tooling around with the published program is supposedly a no-no, but I've been thinking about trying GVT but flipping the legs and shoulders/arms days. This would allow an every-other-day workout program, cutting rest time for each bodypart to 6 days (more than the recommended 5 days, but less than the published routine's 7 days). The routine would look like this: M-chest/back; W - shoulders/arms; F - legs; Sunday - chest; etc.). What do you all think?
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I am sorry for taking so long to reply. I check this forum only when my schedule allows. GVT is not meant to hit every muscle head. It is a program designed to built overall lean muscle mass. I think it is okay to switch the training days as you see fit for you. Don't worry about not hitting the shoulders. They will get plenty of stimulation with all the other compound moves you will do for the upper body. Actually, having followed Charles' routines, most of the times I don't do direct shoulder work. Once in a while I'll throw in some side delt work. Don't sweat it.

I also believe there is no need to "fool around" and try to redesign the routine to something better. Just do it. What do you have to lose? We're talking 6 weeks. If you're not happy with the results, don't do it again!

I've actually met (years ago) one of the power lifters that Charles put on this routine. The guy spoke highly of the benefits.

Having said that, should you wish to use this type of training often, I suggest you do some research on Poliquins' German Body Comp program. My strength coach is level 3 certified from Poliquin. He has me work out in such a fashion often. When I first met him, I was strong but fat and out of shape.

I started off at about 220 lbs, 22% body fat. Within 6 months of German Body Comp, and a low carb diet, I went down to 195% and 12% body fat. Right now, every couple of months I'll do a GPC program just to keep the fat level in check and the rest of the time I'll perform functional hypertrophy or strength based workouts. It works like a charm, and I love it.

I don't know where you live. This is what I'd suggest: Look for a Poliquin level 2 certified coach. Also, try a biosignature analysis. I won't get into it now, cause I don't want to sound like an infomercial. Dude, it has changed my life/the way I look. Google it. You'll understand what I am talking about.

Good luck, and let me know if you have more questions.
 
You actually lost 2 pounds of lean muscle mass in the process... just sayin :dunno:

Pretty typical fatloss (25 pounds) for 6 months with any dedicated program as far as I can tell. No offense, it's just not as impressive as your post suggests.... to be fair, I do have so say that I appreciate that you listed realistic numbers WITH body comp data to support your claim :thumbsup:
 
celc5 said:
You actually lost 2 pounds of lean muscle mass in the process... just sayin :dunno:

Pretty typical fatloss (25 pounds) for 6 months with any dedicated program as far as I can tell. No offense, it's just not as impressive as your post suggests.... to be fair, I do have so say that I appreciate that you listed realistic numbers WITH body comp data to support your claim :thumbsup:
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LOL, you noticed the muscle loss! You are right. But the reason I did the program was to lose body fat. We are not factoring in protein/fat intake and such. Considering I work crazy hours & have a family, I'll live with slight muscle loss. In any case, gaining 2lbs of muscle is not that big of a challenge. I can also tell you that doing cardio instead, for fat loss, will cause to lose way more muscle mass.

You don't have to agree or like the program. My opinion is that Charles knows what he's talking about. Plus, his methods really fit with the way I like to train.
 
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