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DHEA and lethargy

matthias7

matthias7

Well-known member
Hey All:

This could posted in another forum but DHEA used to be a standard supplement of the anti-aging movement. I don't think it is any longer. I'm talking OXO here rather than keto - which I don't know anything about.

DHEA is known to suppress cortisol and I was wondering if high doses of the stuff long term would produce lethargy? Personal experiences welcome.

When I get an official response back I'll reveal what the precise basis of the question is but I wanna give them a chance first.
 
Ok... the answer I've got back is that DHEA has the opposite effect!
What I am looking at here is Primodeal Performances DHEA TDs.

Hmm... the British Society of Nutrationists bans the supplication of DHEA because of its alleged cortisol crushing ability. This could be ....
1. DHEA suppresses cortisol directly, e.g. a little brother of 11-OXO. If you are trying to go anabolic this makes sense.
2. DHEA is maintaining cortisol levels.

DHEA and cortisol form a fixed ratio and skews in the ratio are problematic. If exogenase DHEA promoted cortisol it could then cause a crash when supplication was removed. I dunno its just an idea but British Nutrationists are spooked by DHEA likely for one or the other reasons.

For now I'll leave this one but see if I can find out more.

Sustain Alpha kicks BTW
 
This ain't as straight-forward as I thought. Lethagy = cortisol suppression isn't as direct as I thought. Trying 1T I fell asleep immediately and that ain't cortisol
 
DHEA is extremely complex and versatile in the body. It does not cause lethargy..rather it's somewhat stimulating due to being a nuerosteroid and thyroid booster.

In men, it tends to boost estradiol levels so I would use it with that caution.
 
bioman said:
DHEA is extremely complex and versatile in the body. It does not cause lethargy..rather it's somewhat stimulating due to being a nuerosteroid and thyroid booster.

In men, it tends to boost estradiol levels so I would use it with that caution.
Click to expand...

Basically you are saying only use it with an AI?
 
One of the things that increased DHEA popularity over the past year or 2 is that we are learning that estrogen tends to drop ON cycle with most of the popular designers. ON cycle lethargy could theoretically be due to low estrogen levels.

As bioman said, DHEA may convert both toward test and estradiol, where slightly elevating estradiol may theoretically help to reduce low estrogen symptoms... including loss of libido and lethargy.

I'm pretty sure that's NOT the context of your post, but it's something to ponder nonetheless.

matthias7 said:
Basically you are saying only use it with an AI?
Click to expand...

Sort of, but I think it's the other way around. There's some people who think that DHEA helps reduce low estrogen symptoms from, for example, an nha stack that includes ATD where libido may be a problem.
 
Okay this is picking up interest.

What you are saying here is that DHEA is good as on cycle support for a PH, to reduce gyno and boost energy levels/ libido.

There's got to be a downside to DHEA. I'll be seeing a nutritionist over the weekend and I'll report back.
 
matthias7 said:
What you are saying here is that DHEA is good as on cycle support for a PH, to reduce gyno and boost energy levels/ libido.
Click to expand...

Yes, there's some that say it helps with libido and lethargy while estrogen is low (me personally, I think it had no effect for me).

No, it DEFINATELY will not reduce gyno. And it won't prevent gyno either. Keep in mind the estrogenic potential, the opposite of what you want if you're susceptible to gyno.

Matthias, IME DHEA is cheap little experiment that we all seem to try... but to be honest, I don't think it has much effect for anyone. Just my 2 cents... and to be sure your "nutrionist" doesn't scam you with a $40 bottle of high potency DHEA extreme reloaded LOL :laugh:
 
DHEA can lower SHBG which can be of some benefit on cycle.

It has a lot of ups and downs and IMO, the jury is still out.
 
bioman said:
DHEA can lower SHBG which can be of some benefit on cycle.

It has a lot of ups and downs and IMO, the jury is still out.
Click to expand...

Does it bind to SHBG like Divanil?

Agreed with the ups and downs. There's a lot of that lately with things like resveratrol, melatonin, i3c, etc. You have just as many opinions and studies showing anti-estrogenic effect as you have showing estrogenic potential.
 
celc5 said:
Does it bind to SHBG like Divanil?
Click to expand...
Not to go on a tangent but I bought 4 bottles of a popular Divanil supplement 2 years ago. Took 5 times the recommended dosage and everything between and seen no signs of additional testosterone. Granted I didn't have a blood test but been "on" enough times to know when I got a lot of test in my veins. No bacne, no aggression, no increase libido, nothing. The only way I knew I was taking it other than knowing I took it was tasting it in my burps. IMO it is just another snake oil potion for making a quick buck like 80% of the other non hormonal anabolics out.

Ok, back to the DHEA discussion.
 
lozgod said:
Not to go on a tangent but I bought 4 bottles of a popular Divanil supplement 2 years ago. Took 5 times the recommended dosage and everything between and seen no signs of additional testosterone. Granted I didn't have a blood test but been "on" enough times to know when I got a lot of test in my veins. No bacne, no aggression, no increase libido, nothing. The only way I knew I was taking it other than knowing I took it was tasting it in my burps. IMO it is just another snake oil potion for making a quick buck like 80% of the other non hormonal anabolics out.

Ok, back to the DHEA discussion.
Click to expand...

Agreed 100% with your rant. LOL re: "snake oil :laugh:

Also Agreed with going back to DHEA :cheers:
 
Okay lets try and get back on the DHEA thread.

Its either doing something good, with no draw backs (PPs point of view), OR its the worst supplement ever and should be banned (British nutritionalist associations point of view).

This stuff ain't snake oil thats for sure, if it was then Aus wouldn't have banned (personal comm. BoyFromAus).
 
Oh by the way the lethargy issue of PH you should really solve using non-anatogonist stims that promote wakefulness but don't cause increases in adrenalin (catabolic reactions). The nootrophics thread contains hints.
 
matthias7 said:
Its either doing something good, with no draw backs (PPs point of view), OR its the worst supplement ever and should be banned (British nutritionalist associations point of view).
Click to expand...

IMO both statements are off and it's somewhere in between. It's neither a miracle supplement as marketing suggrests, nor terribly detrimental. Supps just aren't all or none like that.

matthias7 said:
Oh by the way the lethargy issue of PH you should really solve using non-anatogonist stims that promote wakefulness but don't cause increases in adrenalin (catabolic reactions). The nootrophics thread contains hints.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Tyrosine and SamE are where I start with ON cycle lethargy. More of mood enhancers than stims the way I respond to them.
 
Yes, it is. The PCT guide (PCT forum) goes through the most important type.

I wouldn't use it here because I don't understand the relationship between DHEA and cortisol. On cycle used to get some natural test in the system (I think).
 
ive tried dermacrine, transdermal dhea, and it was great.

transderamal dhea is much better, havent tried regular, but i think this is pretty known.

i think dhea has few applications, its good for the elderly with low dhea levels. but for a bodybuilder, not to much use, maybe in certain prohormone cycle regimens, but thats it.
 
matthias7 said:
Hey All:

This could posted in another forum but DHEA used to be a standard supplement of the anti-aging movement. I don't think it is any longer. I'm talking OXO here rather than keto - which I don't know anything about.

DHEA is known to suppress cortisol and I was wondering if high doses of the stuff long term would produce lethargy? Personal experiences welcome.

When I get an official response back I'll reveal what the precise basis of the question is but I wanna give them a chance first.
Click to expand...

I have gotten pretty bad lethargy on antiglucocorticoids-
on 10 mg DHEA,
i also had bad lethargy on 50 mg 7-oxo,
and even on 75 mg (1 cap) 11-oxo
and when I tried 20mg transdermal 7-oxo the lethargy was worst.
From the very first time I took any of them, onset within 20 mins. Ironically I drink roughly 5-8 cups of coffee a day, so one would think there would be some cancelling out... My main concern is wether this is a legitimate health issue or simply a side effect...

Best,
A.
 
Dhea has been shown to promote free radicals in the liver at high doses. It is difficult to define its effects since it can vary for one individual to another. Dhea is a base hormone that makes whatever hormone it believes the body needs. Moreover there is also the problem to quality. Tests have been done on over-the-counter Dhea and found little to no Dhea in the product. My doctor is very knowledgeable as far as natural supplements are concerned and his advice is that it should be taken only if you natural Dhea levels are low and then only enough to raise it back to physiological levels.
 
^^^
Thanks indeed. Weird stuff. It sounds almost like the "partial agonist" theory of resveratrol. Oral vs. transdermal has been discussed in a lot of detail in another current thread. DHEAs weird behaviour hasn't but it makes sense. Pregnenolone is even more weird - the CNS levels flutuate and no one knows what its doing in the CNS - it ain't making test thats for sure. The other weird thing about it is its role in adrenal fatigue - its good to supplement with preg. Why? When I had massive caffeine tolerance I didn't use pregnenolone but should have.

Linking neuro-steriods to energy levels sort of makes sense without invoking DHEAs direct role on the cortisol system. If DHEA is causing fatigue I'd stay clear: I understand now where your docs coming from.
 
Interesting. Come to think of it, I do drink less coffee now that Ive been taking 7-keto.
I know DHEA affects the GABA receptors...However I am not sure if that would be the cause for lethargy.
Switching around dosages and delivery methods seems to have ameliorated the strange lethargy/eurphoria feeling.
 
Wow... it affects GABA :S

It could well do but nothing that touches GABA is good, except theanine and GABOB IMO.
 
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