Cutting Stack

TheDarkHalf

TheDarkHalf

Well-known member
I'm having troubles deciding on what I should run for a cutting stack. I was definitely looking towards epi/tren or an epi/hdrol combo. I've been doing some research - but it seems like there are a lot of different methods for a cutting stack. I want to run the stack for 4 weeks followed by a 4 week PCT. Just wanted some of you guys to weigh in and give your .02.

I'd like to be able to drop some BF, while getting some strength/size. I already have a PCT lined up with a SERM - just need to make a decision on the PH/DS I want to use. Thanks.
 
Well I wasn't sure what people were going to recommend (as i've read harsher compounds should be kept to shorter 4 week cycles) and I wanted to keep this cycle short since it is going to be my first PH/DS.
 
Aight i've decided on epi for sure.....here are some other possibilities i've read about and am also considering stacking with epi...

3-AD / 11-oxo, Promagnon-25, Propadrol, Prostanozol, or Tren

What do you guys think?
 
dont waste your time with the propadrol i used it in a stack with havoc and it didnt help much at all. your better off just sticking with the epi and maybe up the dose rather than stackin. Also six weeks worked well for me.
 
rosco1234 said:
dont waste your time with the propadrol i used it in a stack with havoc and it didnt help much at all. your better off just sticking with the epi and maybe up the dose rather than stackin. Also six weeks worked well for me.
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Thanks man. I was thinking of running the epi for 30 days @ 30mg ED. I do realize that 4 weeks may not be long enough, but I am just wanting to test the waters so to speak.

I'll strike propadrol from the record, along with the promangon-25. So we're down to 3-AD / 11-oxo, Prostanozol, or Tren to stack with Havoc. Right now i'm leaning towards prostanozol, but if someone thinks 3-AD or Tren would be better stack with havoc speak up.
 
Actually, I don't think i'm going to bother with furaz. Seems underdosed and too expensive to be effective.

Been looking at h-drol/epi, and may throw in some clen with the epi towards the end of that cycle. Was thinking of bridging them.

Hdrol weeks 1-4, epi weeks 3-6

PCT: Torem (40/40/20/20), Lean Extreme Week 2, PCS
 
first cycle huh....i would look at epi for 4-6 weeks and then mabye use 11-oxo or that icon to bridge into pct....you could pull an 8 or nine week cycle out of the deal and keep the sides very low and that bridge will actually make your pct a lot easier....i thnk this would be a great cut....
 
mooch2321 said:
first cycle huh....i would look at epi for 4-6 weeks and then mabye use 11-oxo or that icon to bridge into pct....you could pull an 8 or nine week cycle out of the deal and keep the sides very low and that bridge will actually make your pct a lot easier....i thnk this would be a great cut....
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Sorry to hijack, mooch, would an hdrol/11oxo bridge be good for this as well?
 
mooch2321 said:
first cycle huh....i would look at epi for 4-6 weeks and then mabye use 11-oxo or that icon to bridge into pct....you could pull an 8 or nine week cycle out of the deal and keep the sides very low and that bridge will actually make your pct a lot easier....i thnk this would be a great cut....
Click to expand...

Thanks brother. I noticed there is 11-OXO and 3-AD in the store, which one would I be better off using and how would you set up dosage?

I was planning on running that epi as 30/30/30/30 unless you have a better suggestion.

I will be taking cycle assist as my support supp and have Torem, Lean Xtreme (starting 2nd week PCT), and PCS as my PCT.
 
hdrol and 11-oxo would be fine as well....although i think icon from starchem labs would be a better option....its a lil cheaper and is in the already converted state....i personally prefer epi to hdrol tho....i dont see any results from hdrol till i get around 100-150mgs....with epi i see a drying out effect with 20mgs....i think its just a much better compound.....i do it like this

epi-20/30/30/40/40/40
icon-0/0/0/0/0/450/450/450

this would be a nice little 8 week cut....
 
mooch2321 said:
hdrol and 11-oxo would be fine as well....although i think icon from starchem labs would be a better option....its a lil cheaper and is in the already converted state....i personally prefer epi to hdrol tho....i dont see any results from hdrol till i get around 100-150mgs....with epi i see a drying out effect with 20mgs....i think its just a much better compound.....i do it like this

epi-20/30/30/40/40/40
icon-0/0/0/0/0/450/450/450

this would be a nice little 8 week cut....
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. However the Icon is more expensive than 11-OXO by about 10 bucks. However if you think the Icon is better I will take your word.
 
the 11-oxo wont last as long....you have to take like 9 pills a day to get the anabolic effects out of it....you would need two bottles...thats why icon is cheaper....plus as stated it doesnt need to convert like 11-oxo does....
 
mooch2321 said:
the 11-oxo wont last as long....you have to take like 9 pills a day to get the anabolic effects out of it....you would need two bottles...thats why icon is cheaper....plus as stated it doesnt need to convert like 11-oxo does....
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Wouldn't you need three bottles of the icon as well? Looking at it in the store it says 3 capsules is one serving for 150mg. There are only 20 servings in a container. So that would mean 3 servings per day for 3 weeks (that's 21 servings per week - so at least 3 bottles) according to your outline.

Or is the store incorrect?
 
Hmmm....I've been doing some looking on the board here and it seems that the Icon is not getting too many favorable comments...I may just do a Hdrol or Epi stacked with Tren, which I'm pretty sure I won't be able to get away with just an OTC PCT, or just Hdrol or Epi solo, not sure...opinions?
I may also consider doing just Dymehtazine for my recomp...Vaughn says it would work for that, but I want to do more research first.
 
it doesnt get a lot of favorale comments because it doesnt get you hyooge....thats all the idiots out there care about......in this application it will be great....its not very supressive so it can allow your natty test levels to restart a bit while your still on cycle....it also blocks cortisol....so you can lengthen your cycle and help your pct or you can follow the masses and run mdrol for your three week cut......
 
mooch2321 said:
it doesnt get a lot of favorale comments because it doesnt get you hyooge....thats all the idiots out there care about......in this application it will be great....its not very supressive so it can allow your natty test levels to restart a bit while your still on cycle....it also blocks cortisol....so you can lengthen your cycle and help your pct or you can follow the masses and run mdrol for your three week cut......
Click to expand...

I assume a SERM is still necessary for PCT with the the epi/Icon bridge?
 
in my opinion every pct should be
nolva 20/20/20/20
clomid 50/50/50/50
and an ai of your choice.......
 
mooch, I'm not doubting you, the unfavorable comments have been more towards the bioavailability of the keto...and I wouldn't go the mdrol route just because of the sides...now, as far as PCT, clomid and nolva? Isn't that a bit overkill? I'm still on the fence of what I want to do...Epi/Icon or Epi or Hdrol with Tren...the Dymethazine I may do later.
 
ws65 said:
mooch, I'm not doubting you, the unfavorable comments have been more towards the bioavailability of the keto...and I wouldn't go the mdrol route just because of the sides...now, as far as PCT, clomid and nolva? Isn't that a bit overkill? I'm still on the fence of what I want to do...Epi/Icon or Epi or Hdrol with Tren...the Dymethazine I may do later.
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no clomid and nolva do different things....nolva is great at stopping estrogen from binding at the receptor site and clomid is better at kickstarting lh function....you really need them both...and i like to add in an ai in the second week of pct to help estro buildup and avoid a rebound when you come off the nolva....i was given some icon by the starchem rep when it first came out....it wasnt anything great...but... i hardened up quite a bit and and put on a couple pounds with virtually no shutdown....as for the bio-availability i cant speak for that....but generally these non methyl have a pretty crappy bio-availability....i wouldnt recomend it for a solo run but i think bridging into pct while cutting would be a pretty good idea....
 
ws65 said:
mooch, I'm not doubting you, the unfavorable comments have been more towards the bioavailability of the keto...and I wouldn't go the mdrol route just because of the sides...now, as far as PCT, clomid and nolva? Isn't that a bit overkill? I'm still on the fence of what I want to do...Epi/Icon or Epi or Hdrol with Tren...the Dymethazine I may do later.
Click to expand...

oh and please doubt me all you want....we will never learn from each other if you just take my word on things....do the research and make your own educated decision....please dont do things on what i recomend....take my thought and tear them apart....if when you put it back together you agree with me then its all gravy baby...if not then you will probably die....lol
 
mooch2321 said:
in my opinion every pct should be
nolva 20/20/20/20
clomid 50/50/50/50
and an ai of your choice.......
Click to expand...

Well I was thinking this for PCT with the Epi/Icon -

Toremefine 40/40/40/40

didn't think an AI was really needed since Epi works on estrogen receptors and also acts as an AI.

But you mentioned that while bridging the 11-oxo your natty test levels will start to return on their own, which was why I was questioning the necessity of a SERM in this particular PCT.

I've also decided to run a log on this as well
 
Cool DarkHalf...a log would be awesome...I'd like to see what you come up with for your final decision on what to cycle, cycle support supps, pct, and pct support supps.
 
ws65 said:
Cool DarkHalf...a log would be awesome...I'd like to see what you come up with for your final decision on what to cycle, cycle support supps, pct, and pct support supps.
Click to expand...

Currently as it stands:

On Cycle:
Epi 20/30/30/40/40/40
Icon 0/0/0/0/150/150/150
Cycle Assist

PCT:
PCS
Lean Xtreme in 2nd week
Tore 40/40/20/20 (if needed, is a SERM really necessary on this bridge/cycle?)

Was also thinking about throwing in a fat burner for the last 3 weeks on cycle, can anyone advise whether this is a good or bad idea?
 
TheDarkHalf said:
Well I was thinking this for PCT with the Epi/Icon -

Toremefine 40/40/40/40

didn't think an AI was really needed since Epi works on estrogen receptors and also acts as an AI.

But you mentioned that while bridging the 11-oxo your natty test levels will start to return on their own, which was why I was questioning the necessity of a SERM in this particular PCT.

I've also decided to run a log on this as well
Click to expand...

you will have two weeks of running icon before pct....estro will probably rebound a little....as far as a serm goes its a personal preference but i would use one regardless....natty test levels will recover a bit on icon making pct easier....but that doesnt mean you shouldnt run a comprehensive pct.....


ws65 said:
mooch and all, what do you think of an hdrol/furaguno stack for recomp?
Click to expand...

probably a good cut stack....but both are notoriously weak compounds as far as gains go....
 
mooch2321 said:
you will have two weeks of running icon before pct....estro will probably rebound a little....as far as a serm goes its a personal preference but i would use one regardless....natty test levels will recover a bit on icon making pct easier....but that doesnt mean you shouldnt run a comprehensive pct.....
Click to expand...

Sounds good, thanks for all the advice boss.
 
forgot to ask your opinions on this...what type of workouts do you guys do for a recomp? (I always change mine up...did 1 bodypart a week, upper/lower, etc, etc)
 
ws65 said:
forgot to ask your opinions on this...what type of workouts do you guys do for a recomp? (I always change mine up...did 1 bodypart a week, upper/lower, etc, etc)
Click to expand...

I always train hard and heavy year round, 5 day split. Just the way I like to train and I find that it works best for me.

Didn't realize that people needed to switch things up for a recomp. I generally just do a different workout each day - never repeating the pattern of exercises from the week before.
 
TheDarkHalf said:
Cool, maybe we could co-author a log.
Click to expand...
I need to get SERMS first..trying to figure out a way to get them. I know a couple people that live in Mexico, I'm hoping they could pick them up for me...we'll see...I'd much rather have the pill form than the research liquid form...I will try to give input when I can; I work two full-time jobs, go right to the gym after second one, then bed...sometimes at my day job I can jump on...able to post the past week because I took a week off from the gym.

Dark, you are just going to do the Torem for your SERM? And I think you said you were going to do a natural test booster and pcs as well?
 
ws65 said:
I need to get SERMS first..trying to figure out a way to get them. I know a couple people that live in Mexico, I'm hoping they could pick them up for me...we'll see...I'd much rather have the pill form than the research liquid form...I will try to give input when I can; I work two full-time jobs, go right to the gym after second one, then bed...sometimes at my day job I can jump on...able to post the past week because I took a week off from the gym.

Dark, you are just going to do the Torem for your SERM? And I think you said you were going to do a natural test booster and pcs as well?
Click to expand...

That's cool man i'm in no rush. I'm not looking to start this for atleast another 3 weeks - as I have some supplements that I need to go through and I am still trying to decide whether or not I want to use torem for PCT or just get an OTC PCT. I am definitely using PCS and Lean Xtreme as a part of my PCT.

Invalid Link Removed
 
Hey Dark, thanks for the link to the havoc thread...I posted a quick comment there and I hope someone can gives us the "straight" answer on what you were asking there.
 
ws65 said:
Cool DarkHalf...a log would be awesome...I'd like to see what you come up with for your final decision on what to cycle, cycle support supps, pct, and pct support supps.
Click to expand...

I know it's been a few months, here's what I was thinking as my final thoughts for the cycle. Starting it next week.

Cycle:
Epi 30/30/30/40/40/40/
11-oxo 0/0/0/0/0/450/450/450/

Support Supps:
CEL Cycle Assist (during cycle and PCT), taurine, B-complex

PCT:
Reversitol 4/3/2/1
PCS 0/0/4/4/4/4
Lean Xtreme for 30 days starting in week 2
Activate Xtreme and Powerfull after the reversitol is done
 
Hey Mooch, what's your opinion on my PCT. You think I would need a SERM on hand? I was thinking of Toremifene just in case. I'd like your .02 I feel like you are one of the more knowledable guys that isn't just trying to get me to spend extra money on bull$hit.

I have guys telling me i'll lose all my gains and that i'll crash and won't recover without a SERM when i've read that people have recovered on OTC PCT and kept gains. I need a straight answer from a straight shooter. Thanks boss.
TheDarkHalf said:
PCT:
Reversitol 4/3/2/1
PCS 0/0/4/4/4/4
Lean Xtreme for 30 days starting in week 2
Activate Xtreme and Powerfull after the reversitol is done
Click to expand...
 
i think that those two weeks on 11-oxo will be very beneficial towards recovery......honestly i think that you will be fine without it.....that being said keeping some clomid or toremifene around would be a really smart move....i personally am an advocate of serms....but only when needed......
 
mooch2321 said:
i think that those two weeks on 11-oxo will be very beneficial towards recovery......honestly i think that you will be fine without it.....that being said keeping some clomid or toremifene around would be a really smart move....i personally am an advocate of serms....but only when needed......
Click to expand...

Thanks man. Just the answer I was looking for. I always see people say to have a serm "just in case" - what are these "just in case" factors? Just gyno related sides?
 
gyno sides would be one.... or what if you dont bounce back well with your natty test booster....clomid and tor can have you feeling great in a few days....a lot of the otc stuff takes much longer if it works at all.....if you feel very suppressed on cycle...have any libido probs...or any signs of shut down id use the clomid or tor.....i dont think you should have too much gyno probs with this cycle or id say to have nolva on hand too....its just a really good idea to cover your bases....i dont want to be one of those guys shoving a serm down everybodies throat....honestly in some situations its not needed....that being said i will tell you this....ive never cycled without at least clomid for pct......
 
mooch2321 said:
gyno sides would be one.... or what if you dont bounce back well with your natty test booster....clomid and tor can have you feeling great in a few days....a lot of the otc stuff takes much longer if it works at all.....if you feel very suppressed on cycle...have any libido probs...or any signs of shut down id use the clomid or tor.....i dont think you should have too much gyno probs with this cycle or id say to have nolva on hand too....its just a really good idea to cover your bases....i dont want to be one of those guys shoving a serm down everybodies throat....honestly in some situations its not needed....that being said i will tell you this....ive never cycled without at least clomid for pct......
Click to expand...

You hit in on the head. Exactly the answer I was looking for. I feel like I kept getting a fuc#ing run around on this other thread i've been posting on. I know epi acts as an AI and has SERM like properties which was my reason for asking. After talking to you I think I will get a SERM just to be on the safe side. If I don't need well then i'll have it for another cycle 4-6 months down the road.
 
get torem or clomid to help restore lh function....nolva will stop estrogen from binding at the receptor site....serms function differently....when guys say get a serm half the time they dont know what there talking about and just parroting things from another thread....
 
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