KgTomCat
Well-known member
I wasn't going to say anything but I agree...
First H-drol cycle - Please review!
- Thread starter LAGear
- Start date
LAGear
Active member
First 12 days I took 50. Starting with day 13 I've been taking 75.
I'm tempted to bump up to 100 in the last week but I don't want to push my luck on my first cycle. Especially since I've once again become unsure about my PCT. For a time I was confident that Torem without an AI would do the trick but I've been reading a lot of stuff that makes me feel like not including an AI is a mistake.
My goal was to cut. I figured eating close to maintenance and lifting heavy + cardio would accomplish that. I didn't make this theory up in my head, I came to this conclusion based on my research. There seemed to be quite a few people that not only cut but added some LBM while in a caloric deficit.
At this point I'm not sure I've bulked or cut so the net effect of hdrol is close to nil. As long as I'm busting my ass and eating clean shouldn't there be some difference between taking hdrol and not taking it? I'll have a better idea tomorrow when I measure up again.
I don't want to eat more and risk adding BF while adding mass so that's why I think I should drop the calories and see if I can get some serious cutting effect the last two weeks. Any thoughts about that plan?
GMG760
Well-known member
Not everyone responds great to everything, and some people respond great to the same things... just depends on the person. Yes there should be a difference between taking and not taking it, but it might not neccisarily be in the form of weight. You may have just recomped... IDK without pictures to look at really. What week are you on?
LAGear
Active member
I'm on day 23 so just started week four yesterday.
I'm hoping there is some recomp going on which would be just fine for me. Like I said, my electronic scale says BF is up (I doubt that is right) and my electronic calipers say I'm down 0.3% - 0.6% BF.
Looking at the photos I posted above would you say I'm closer to 10% or 7% BF?
I wasn't going to compare mid-cycle pictures with those I took before because I assumed there wouldn't be enough change to make it worthwhile, I thought it might even be discouraging. But I'm pretty discouraged as it is so maybe I should take some new pics to compare before I start cutting my calories down. If I do a side-by-side comparison I may notice some pronounced changes that I'm not seeing in the mirror.
KgTomCat
Well-known member
bump to what GMG said, adding cals may not make you gain mass, you may burn more fat. on my first cycle I ate like a horse, and then some more, and lost a significant amount of BF and gained good amount of strength, BUT, everyone is different, you have to find out how your body reacts
LAGear
Active member
On hdrol? How much were you taking?
KgTomCat
Well-known member
you cannot use the mirror to judge any changes...you look at the mirror X times in one day, so you grow accustomed to what you see, the slightest difference you will not be able to tell, trust me. take your before pics, compare them to pics now, any difference will be noticeable
LAGear
Active member
I know.
Funny thing is that "X times" is like triple what it normally is while you're on a cycle. LOL
KgTomCat
Well-known member
true...and we push ourselves harder with the iron, kind of depressing
GMG760
Well-known member
I'd say you are closer to 7%... I wouldn't go so far as to say 7%... because 2% less is about competition shape. IDK, if your calipers are saying 7%, then it probably is close. I would have said 8% or so without your previous input. We'll see what you look like in the after pictures. I didn't feel like I gained a ton on Epi, but when I put my before pic next to my after pic, my "new me" looked like he could eat the "old me".
LAGear
Active member
Usually I only laugh at the stupid things I hear people say on AM. But that was actually funny. LOL
CopyCat
Well-known member
KgTomCat
Well-known member
:wizard::head::woohoo:
LAGear
Active member
I've read one in the AM and one four hours later. Then there are two schools of thought on the last dose; some say post workout and some say before bed.
Dilemma now is trying to figure out whether or not I need an AI with Torem for my PCT.
CopyCat
Well-known member
Cortisol levels are their highest when you wake up in the morning and after you work out, with the highest of the two being in the morning after a nights sleep. The idea of taking it before bed is the if ones cortisol levels are going to go up at night while sleeping than it can be taken before going to sleep to keep them from rising. It's a well intentioned thought and even sounds good on the surface, but truly isn't going to work quite like that and won't be the most effective.
LAGear
Active member
Thanks bro. Can't rep you gain but appreciate the info.
LAGear
Active member
What about on non-workout days? When should you take the third dose?
CopyCat
Well-known member
Personally on non workout days I took it just prior to my supper. It probably would make much of a difference if you took it at supper time or before bed, but I would push dose #3 into the evening on non workout days in order to spread the doses out, but keep the 1st thing in the AM dose and the one 4 hrs later where they are.
KgTomCat
Well-known member
Im looking into doing a Pmag cycle in a month or two, can you help me out? W/e I decide to run, Ill log it for sure!
CopyCat
Well-known member
I'm always down to try and answer anything I can. As far a Pmag goes, I don't know too much about it yet though.
LAGear
Active member
Today is day 26.
Last week strength was noticeably up. Nothing spectacular but it's up. On Friday I did sets identical to ones I did at the very beginning of the cycle. I used the same weights and was able to do several more reps across the board.
I still haven't been able to do as much cardio as I would like due to time constraints. I've only been doing about 15:00 of HIIT on most lifting days. I am going to make it a point to focus on cardio in the last stretch.
On Day 25 I dropped my calories back down to about 2000/day but still very clean and 35-40% protein. I'm going to stick with this through the end of the cycle to maximize cutting.
As far as sides, I haven't noticed any testicular discomfort for some time and there are still no other sides to report at all. If anything I've had very mild back pumps when doing squats and deads but not enough to affect my lifting.
Here's a graph of my weight from the beginning of the year. I graphed once a week with the highest, lowest and median weight each week. I think the median line is most telling. You can see that I've gained about three pounds in the last three weeks and I'd love to add another 2-3 in the last nine days before PCT.
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I think I would benefit from a six week cycle since I didn't start to notice much until week four. But I'm not going to push it this time around, I'm going to stick to five. First because of an upcoming trip that would get in the way and because I'm not at all crazy about shutting down for six weeks. From what I understand that sixth week can make a big difference in terms of shutdown. But I might bump up to 100 in the last week or so if I were to do another cycle.
On Day 2 my calipers said I was at 7.3% BF, on Day 10 I was 7.0%, on Day 17 and 24 I was 6.7%. Would love to see any kind of reduction here between now and the end of the cycle.
Some interesting notes is that I've added 7/8" to my waist, 7/16" to my hips, 13/16" around my ass, 9/16" to my thighs 9/16" to my biceps and no change to my chest. Weird thing is that most of the changes came in the last week. Considering I wanted to cut I'm not sure how I feel about the increase in hips and waist measurements. Doesn't seem to be fat though so that's good.
Here are some before (on left) and Day 25 photos. Before photos were in pretty crappy light which I replicated on Day 25.
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Last week strength was noticeably up. Nothing spectacular but it's up. On Friday I did sets identical to ones I did at the very beginning of the cycle. I used the same weights and was able to do several more reps across the board.
I still haven't been able to do as much cardio as I would like due to time constraints. I've only been doing about 15:00 of HIIT on most lifting days. I am going to make it a point to focus on cardio in the last stretch.
On Day 25 I dropped my calories back down to about 2000/day but still very clean and 35-40% protein. I'm going to stick with this through the end of the cycle to maximize cutting.
As far as sides, I haven't noticed any testicular discomfort for some time and there are still no other sides to report at all. If anything I've had very mild back pumps when doing squats and deads but not enough to affect my lifting.
Here's a graph of my weight from the beginning of the year. I graphed once a week with the highest, lowest and median weight each week. I think the median line is most telling. You can see that I've gained about three pounds in the last three weeks and I'd love to add another 2-3 in the last nine days before PCT.
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I think I would benefit from a six week cycle since I didn't start to notice much until week four. But I'm not going to push it this time around, I'm going to stick to five. First because of an upcoming trip that would get in the way and because I'm not at all crazy about shutting down for six weeks. From what I understand that sixth week can make a big difference in terms of shutdown. But I might bump up to 100 in the last week or so if I were to do another cycle.
On Day 2 my calipers said I was at 7.3% BF, on Day 10 I was 7.0%, on Day 17 and 24 I was 6.7%. Would love to see any kind of reduction here between now and the end of the cycle.
Some interesting notes is that I've added 7/8" to my waist, 7/16" to my hips, 13/16" around my ass, 9/16" to my thighs 9/16" to my biceps and no change to my chest. Weird thing is that most of the changes came in the last week. Considering I wanted to cut I'm not sure how I feel about the increase in hips and waist measurements. Doesn't seem to be fat though so that's good.
Here are some before (on left) and Day 25 photos. Before photos were in pretty crappy light which I replicated on Day 25.
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Tone
Member
holy **** bro, your back got huge! looks like a little different pose though. either way thats awesome man, you just have one more week to go?
LAGear
Active member
Thanks man. I don't know jack shi*t about posing so could be different poses. I tried to do everything the same though.
I have nine days left including today.
Goal was to cut. For the last four weeks I've eaten as clean as I ever have. I don't think I could eat any more clean if I wanted to.
I do my best to keep macros around 40P, 30F, 30C.
LAGear
Active member
You sure do know your stuff. I'll see if I can find any pre-cycle pictures where my pose is closer to the Day 25 shots.
What do you think about my plan to cut back on the calories to enhance my cut in the final stretch? Should I stick to with what I've been doing or go for the all out cut? I actually started on Saturday, I cut back from ~2500/day to ~2100/day.
GMG760
Well-known member
Haha, I suck at posing bud. I am a photographer by trade and I typically shoot people as my subject. I can pick apart differences in photos in seconds, it's part of my job.
KgTomCat
Well-known member
good stuff man, my macros will prob be 50-30-20 for my cycle, not sure yet though
I would personally keep the cals a little higher and keep pushing heavy weight in the gym, but I might be wrong
CopyCat
Well-known member
LAGear, here is a link to a thread that Eric (owner) from Primordial Performance created about post cycle therapy. He talks about AI's and there use in the first post along with a lot of other good stuff. As well, if you read the thread long enough it comes back around to AI's a few times and he dishes out other good gouge and recommendations regarding the use of AI's. This guy has a lot of knowledge, experience, and a good rep. I'm personally a big fan of what he has to say on most of this stuff. You should def check it out. hopefully it can help you out with your AI questions.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/119182-official-pct-2009-a.html
Same original post and thread, but at PP's website. It has different responses, questions, and info in the subsequent posts.
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http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/119182-official-pct-2009-a.html
Same original post and thread, but at PP's website. It has different responses, questions, and info in the subsequent posts.
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LAGear
Active member
I appreciate the links. I've read that "official PCT" several times. But there is still disagreement among users here. We've been debating Eric's stance on AI's in another thread. If it's something you or anyone else is interested in it's a good read. Starting with this post and on - http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/111737-toremifene-side-effects-5.html#post1974127
CopyCat
Well-known member
Oh, I've been reading it. I just think that in the end there will always be disagreement. You will not find a 100% conclusive decision on it. My opinion sides with Eric, but like I said it's my opinion.
LAGear
Active member
To be honest, just as Torem seems to stand apart from the other SERMs, Formex also seems to stand apart from other AI's. I'm starting to think adding Formex in week three might not be a bad idea. It seems to give great results when used as a standalone and in PCT Formex doesn't have the issues you could face with other AIs.
I was just advised that DTH might be overkill for my PCT and to save it for standalone use. Anyone have thoughts about that?
KgTomCat
Well-known member
dont know about the I3C or the DTH man, sorry, but I used Blue Up in my second PCT and liked it. Dont know if Ill use that or something else for my next run
LAGear
Active member
Yeah, I've never used DTH but I hear it's great as a standalone which is why I was hoping I might save it for later use. So if I can get away with using Blue Up instead I'll do that. I'm gonna do more research and see what people think, from things I've read before it seems pretty reliable.
LAGear
Active member
So an update on my progress. I hit the wall today in the gym. I was doing supersets of 12 reps with 60 seconds rest. In my first superset I had bench press and in my second superset I had incline DB bench (palms in).
Second time around doing incline DB press I couldn't lift anything. I dropped all the way down to 45 and couldn't get them up. I took a five minute break struggled to do 40's and then had trouble with 35's the next time around. My delts were totally wiped out and I didn't have much energy.
I skipped abs which I do at the end of my workout because I just wasn't feeling it at that point. I got on the eliptical for some cardio and struggled through 15:00 then did some abs when I got home.
This is the first time I've felt anything like this in a looong time. It sucked.
Today was Day 28 so officially the end of week four. Tomorrow better not be the same, I can't afford to take extra days off with just one week left in my cycle. Especially since my gym is closed on Monday for Memorial Day.
Second time around doing incline DB press I couldn't lift anything. I dropped all the way down to 45 and couldn't get them up. I took a five minute break struggled to do 40's and then had trouble with 35's the next time around. My delts were totally wiped out and I didn't have much energy.
I skipped abs which I do at the end of my workout because I just wasn't feeling it at that point. I got on the eliptical for some cardio and struggled through 15:00 then did some abs when I got home.
This is the first time I've felt anything like this in a looong time. It sucked.
Today was Day 28 so officially the end of week four. Tomorrow better not be the same, I can't afford to take extra days off with just one week left in my cycle. Especially since my gym is closed on Monday for Memorial Day.
KgTomCat
Well-known member
yea man, seems like you might be overtraining or not eating enough, but you say you don't want to take another day off...:dunno:How is your calories?? How much sleep are you getting?? I get tired a lot but I find that usually when im not eating enough or im not getting enough sleep at night. try bumping up to 100j/k..
LAGear
Active member
Calories and sleep are in line with what's normal for me.
Overtraining was my first thought but isn't one of the advantages of using gear that you can train more often and not suffer from overtraining?
However, yesterday would have been a weird time for me to hit the overtraining wall. I lifted on Friday, then took Sat and Sun off, then lifted again on Monday and Tuesday. Considering I just took two days off I wouldn't expect to hit the wall on Tuesday. But who knows.
I have exactly seven days left on my cycle (including today) and plan to take two of those days off. I do not want to take more than that off. I'm back in the gym today. If it goes the same as yesterday then I'll definitely plan an extra day off.
LAGear
Active member
UGH! Just discovered I've been taking half as much Cycle Support as I should be.
I decided to take Life Support instead of Cycle Support because it's the same thing but comes in cap form. However, nobody pointed out that you have to double the recommended LS dose to equal one CS dose. So for four weeks I've been getting 50% of the standard CS dose.
Anyone think this is putting dangerous stress on my liver? This was a rather frustrating discovery...
I decided to take Life Support instead of Cycle Support because it's the same thing but comes in cap form. However, nobody pointed out that you have to double the recommended LS dose to equal one CS dose. So for four weeks I've been getting 50% of the standard CS dose.
Anyone think this is putting dangerous stress on my liver? This was a rather frustrating discovery...
Tone
Member
I think you will be fine just make sure you switch to the right doseage
LAGear
Active member
Yeah, I got some feedback from one of the AI co-owners who said he thought LS is plenty for an h-drol only cycle. WHEW!
CopyCat
Well-known member
You'll be fine