Progesterone and Prolactin

sethroberts said:
There is no evidence that progesterone causes gyno, even in the presence of estrogen. That is not to say that it is not possible. High prolactin levels will cause problems -- possibly even in the presence of "normal" levels of estrogen but unless you have a blood test showing elevated prolactin levels, I would assume estrogen first, prolactin last. At this point we have a ton of people blindly using caber and bromo (and even profilactively in some cases) with no evidence of prolactin elevation which has the possibility of seriously screwing up your pituitary.
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Say Joe blow has estrogen levels within the normal range, then introduces a progestin and starts seeing gyno symptoms within the first 2 weeks

Would you say the estrogen or progestin caused that gyno?

I say it’s silly to say it was either, since they are both cofactors.

Whether or not a progestin will initiate gyno in the total absence of estrogen I couldn’t say, but estrogen, progestin, prolactin, GH, and IGF-1 are all contributors to the growth of mammary tissue. Thus reducing any of them will reduce the chance of experiencing gyno symptoms... I think this is important to keep in mind.

-Eric
 
Primordial Perf said:
Say Joe blow has estrogen levels within the normal range, then introduces a progestin and starts seeing gyno symptoms within the first 2 weeks

Would you say the estrogen or progestin caused that gyno?

I say it’s silly to say it was either, since they are both cofactors.

Whether or not a progestin will initiate gyno in the total absence of estrogen I couldn’t say, but estrogen, progestin, prolactin, GH, and IGF-1 are all contributors to the growth of mammary tissue. Thus reducing any of them will reduce the chance of experiencing gyno symptoms... I think this is important to keep in mind.

-Eric
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I was looking a board on your website and noticed that your not too fond of SERM usage? What would you propose to normalizing libido/test/estrogen?

As far as this thread goes I've come to a conclusion that controlling estrogen is key as well as prolactin. But I'm not trying to kill estrogen during PCT, as it is already killed during cycle for me. So I almost feel reluctant to use anything more than a low dose of AI tapering to EOD dosages during PCT. What do you think?

I also plan on using Clomid first few weeks then jumping on perhaps TRS afterwards, if I can come off my hip for that stack.
 
fueledpassion said:
I was looking a board on your website and noticed that your not too fond of SERM usage? What would you propose to normalizing libido/test/estrogen?

As far as this thread goes I've come to a conclusion that controlling estrogen is key as well as prolactin. But I'm not trying to kill estrogen during PCT, as it is already killed during cycle for me. So I almost feel reluctant to use anything more than a low dose of AI tapering to EOD dosages during PCT. What do you think?

I also plan on using Clomid first few weeks then jumping on perhaps TRS afterwards, if I can come off my hip for that stack.
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Yep, not a fan of SERM’s. In my experience they high doses can lower libido and raise estrogen to the point where rebound problems can occur when you discontinue them. If you are going to use a SERM I suggest sticking with lower than traditional doses. (eg, 10mg/day nolva, 25mg/day clomid)

I don’t advise using steroid AI’s for PCT simply because they are steroid hormones that may interfere with the HPTA and natural T production.

Of course, I propose the TRS for PCT. It won’t cause estrogen to rise out of the normal range, nor will it overly suppress estrogen.

-Eric
 
Primordial Perf said:
If these steroids are causing gyno by releasing E2 through SHBG down-regulation or competitive binding then an AI won’t do anything to prevent gyno from the circulating E2. (or the low levels of antagonistic DHT) Therefore, Seth suggests a SERM to block the action of estrogen.

The theory makes sense, but I would still caution against the SERM administration and instead opt for prolactin control. (Being a potent co-factor in breast growth, perhaps keeping it in the sub-physiological range will partly cripple estrogens ability to induce mammary growth)

-Eric
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Eric, to test your theory regarding prolactin being the MAJOR player in gyno

why dont I take Pramipexole high dose and zap out PRL first

then i will take synthetic estradiol

will I develope gyno then?

I think Estrogen needs to be addressed first. it is clear estrogen makes boobies grow i mean look at some boobies carrying homosapiens, namely women, they have high ass E level not high PRL, co factor is a co factor, why not take out the source?

also SERM is, as the name states, selective, meaning its not a full on antagonist of ER, therefore it is partially agnoistic, your HPTA will be 'happy' to see some estrogen like activity happening somwehre (liver or whatever)...which wont freak out and ramp up estrone build up or aromatase build up. Using AI will however cause rebound in some cases, I personally think SERM is better for PCT and even during cycle (nolva).


unrelated, but how about use progesterone cream to lower ER LOL,,,you will be shutdown anyways during cycle, taper off progesterone while tapering off test, run low dose test for awhile then start PCT? no gyno during cycle due to lowered ER? this sounds bad but someone should try it ahhaha

Seth, you should start a thread explaining how progestins work with GR and cause joint pain relief or sore joints depending on structure (nandrolone and winny) and how cortisol, progesterone and glucocorticoid all can interact with same receptors of each...why do i get acne only from progestin based gear? and do they increase cortisol? and yet anti catabolic WTF?
 
comacho said:
Eric, to test your theory regarding prolactin being the MAJOR player in gyno

why dont I take Pramipexole high dose and zap out PRL first

then i will take synthetic estradiol

will I develope gyno then?

I think Estrogen needs to be addressed first. it is clear estrogen makes boobies grow i mean look at some boobies carrying homosapiens, namely women, they have high ass E level not high PRL, co factor is a co factor, why not take out the source?

also SERM is, as the name states, selective, meaning its not a full on antagonist of ER, therefore it is partially agnoistic, your HPTA will be 'happy' to see some estrogen like activity happening somwehre (liver or whatever)...which wont freak out and ramp up estrone build up or aromatase build up. Using AI will however cause rebound in some cases, I personally think SERM is better for PCT and even during cycle (nolva).


unrelated, but how about use progesterone cream to lower ER LOL,,,you will be shutdown anyways during cycle, taper off progesterone while tapering off test, run low dose test for awhile then start PCT? no gyno during cycle due to lowered ER? this sounds bad but someone should try it ahhaha

Seth, you should start a thread explaining how progestins work with GR and cause joint pain relief or sore joints depending on structure (nandrolone and winny) and how cortisol, progesterone and glucocorticoid all can interact with same receptors of each...why do i get acne only from progestin based gear? and do they increase cortisol? and yet anti catabolic WTF?
Click to expand...

I actually found a rellay good paper on estrogen and the joints but my f--king computer crashed so I have to refind it. But the points you bring up are good ones that I will look into.
 
U got it bro. Lol I thought u really liked it soooo...... Anyway e2 before cycle in dec was less thn 20 then a week later gyno popped up. March e2 was 29 and I was on 40mg epi 300mg npp and test 610mg
 
U got it bro. Lol I thought u really liked it soooo...... Anyway e2 before cycle in dec was less thn 20 then a week later gyno popped up. March e2 was 29 and I was on 40mg epi 300mg npp and test 610mg
 
comacho said:
Eric, to test your theory regarding prolactin being the MAJOR player in gyno

why dont I take Pramipexole high dose and zap out PRL first

then i will take synthetic estradiol

will I develope gyno then?

I think Estrogen needs to be addressed first. it is clear estrogen makes boobies grow i mean look at some boobies carrying homosapiens, namely women, they have high ass E level not high PRL, co factor is a co factor, why not take out the source?

also SERM is, as the name states, selective, meaning its not a full on antagonist of ER, therefore it is partially agnoistic, your HPTA will be 'happy' to see some estrogen like activity happening somwehre (liver or whatever)...which wont freak out and ramp up estrone build up or aromatase build up. Using AI will however cause rebound in some cases, I personally think SERM is better for PCT and even during cycle (nolva).


unrelated, but how about use progesterone cream to lower ER LOL,,,you will be shutdown anyways during cycle, taper off progesterone while tapering off test, run low dose test for awhile then start PCT? no gyno during cycle due to lowered ER? this sounds bad but someone should try it ahhaha

Seth, you should start a thread explaining how progestins work with GR and cause joint pain relief or sore joints depending on structure (nandrolone and winny) and how cortisol, progesterone and glucocorticoid all can interact with same receptors of each...why do i get acne only from progestin based gear? and do they increase cortisol? and yet anti catabolic WTF?
Click to expand...

Eric is simply stating that prolactin (as progesterone) are cofactors in the overall development of mammary tissue and milk production. Nothing more, and this really isn't a novelty at this point. Nobody here is denying the prevalence of estrogen in the overall stimulation and/or development of mammary tissue, however the whole issue goes way beyond that. Even in the presence of a normal estrogen level, if your cofactors are elevated to any degree the risk is there to potentiate an issue; not to mention there is the possiblity of so many unknown underlying factors playing a part at times (i.e. underlying hormonal disorders, dopaminergic factors, disease process.)

Just as an example, look at the hormonal/development algorhythm women experience during their menses or pregnancy. Progesterone and prolactin without-a-doubt play a part in the development of glandular tissue and lactation. As in puberty, estrogen controls the growth of the ducts and progesterone controls the growth of the glandular buds. It's all relative here in the end, and that's what really matters.

I can see what you're getting at overall, and i don't disagree per se, but this issue is far more complicated than just estrogen alone in many instances. We could go on for hours discussing each cofactor and the different scenarios that could play a role in any given individual issue. I'm not Anti-Serm myself, and i do think they play an important role, but in general i don't think many people realize how complex endocrinology really is. Without blood work to correlate with each individual presenting case, there is no way to prove any specific treatment modality effective; or even warranted for that matter.
 
crazyfool405 said:
U got it bro. Lol I thought u really liked it soooo...... Anyway e2 before cycle in dec was less thn 20 then a week later gyno popped up. March e2 was 29 and I was on 40mg epi 300mg npp and test 610mg
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Alright, it's been too many posts since we talked about it. so a week after getting a reading of 20 for e2 your gyno popped up. What else did your test measure?
 
Ill have to look. T levels in the 200s prolactin normal like 6. Then march t levels 3487 and e2 29 and prl 8ish

I will let u know when I'm back from dc ill send it to u in a pm
 
crazyfool405 said:
Ill have to look. T levels in the 200s prolactin normal like 6. Then march t levels 3487 and e2 29 and prl 8ish

I will let u know when I'm back from dc ill send it to u in a pm
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I am particularly interested in SHBG and estrone levels. Did you have free test versus total test?
 
Just putting this link from another thread here at AM about Dienedrone/Estra 4,9's here, for easy reference :

Invalid Link Removed
 
SEth...come back!!! This is a GREAT thread--keep it going.

OK, what about SERM use during a cycle of something supressive to SHBG, for example Super Drol or P-Plex? Would you suggest Nolva over Clomid? Would 10 mg./day of Nolva probably be sufficient to get the job done in terms of antagonizing the estrogen receptor and helping keep SHBG not quite so supressed?

I prefer Clomid during PCT; is low dose Nolva (~10 mg./day) on cycle, followed by Clomid during PCT (tapered down and perhaps extended to 6 weeks in order to allow SHBG to normalize and the freed estrone to be cleared) sound like a solid protocol?


Crowbar

P.S. I WILL be getting your book--fascinating stuff!
 
crowbar46 said:
SEth...come back!!! This is a GREAT thread--keep it going.

OK, what about SERM use during a cycle of something supressive to SHBG, for example Super Drol or P-Plex? Would you suggest Nolva over Clomid? Would 10 mg./day of Nolva probably be sufficient to get the job done in terms of antagonizing the estrogen receptor and helping keep SHBG not quite so supressed?

I prefer Clomid during PCT; is low dose Nolva (~10 mg./day) on cycle, followed by Clomid during PCT (tapered down and perhaps extended to 6 weeks in order to allow SHBG to normalize and the freed estrone to be cleared) sound like a solid protocol?


Crowbar


P.S. I WILL be getting your book--fascinating stuff!
Click to expand...

I'm always here :) I lurk a lot looking for interesting discussions.

To answer your question, I don't know for sure. Tamoxifen should increase SHBG levels but no studies have been performed on this particular question. I would have to look in the literature to see if I could get an idea on dose.
 
I understand, but in principle you have no objection to using low dose Nolva on cycle and Clomid during PCT?


Crowbar
 
Seth, I know this is off topic, but while I have you here...What do you think of M1-T? I can obtain some from the UK which I have heard from users of the older versions that it is legit.

I understand this is an open ended question; however, do you have a very strong opinion one way or the other? Some people would never consider using M1-T, and think of it as nothing more than poison in a pill.

Crowbar
 
crowbar46 said:
Seth, I know this is off topic, but while I have you here...What do you think of M1-T? I can obtain some from the UK which I have heard from users of the older versions that it is legit.

I understand this is an open ended question; however, do you have a very strong opinion one way or the other? Some people would never consider using M1-T, and think of it as nothing more than poison in a pill.

Crowbar
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I don't think of it as any worse than superdrol really. Both pretty toxic but superdrol might give a few more pounds of water weight gain. In a perfect world, I would never use either of them.
 
Great... totally awesome read tonight!!! SO SO much info.

Seth, how would you setup oncycle support and PCT for these designer such as SD, Phera and Tren to help prevent against gyno and other unwanted sides. Are you saying to pretty much stay away from an AI oncycle and in PCT?

What do you think about using clomid wks 1-4 along with tamox wks 1-4. Then starting wk 3 add the AI and taper the dose from wk 3-6 (thus extending it 2 wks past the SERMS).
 
Liftingstud said:
Great... totally awesome read tonight!!! SO SO much info.

Seth, how would you setup oncycle support and PCT for these designer such as SD, Phera and Tren to help prevent against gyno and other unwanted sides. Are you saying to pretty much stay away from an AI oncycle and in PCT?

What do you think about using clomid wks 1-4 along with tamox wks 1-4. Then starting wk 3 add the AI and taper the dose from wk 3-6 (thus extending it 2 wks past the SERMS).
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I would probably use a SERM on cycle. I have never been a fan of AI use during or after a cycle unless the dosing is kept very low because they tend to reduce estrogen too much. I think there is a huge amount of gyno hysteria out there (and probably rightfully so). If one uses AAS long enough then there is a very strong liklihood, if not a certainty, of getting gyno and losing hair -- two things that men do not want. But, if you are constantly squeezing your nips, then you may be causing problems. It is not unusual for breast tissue to swell while on a cycle (especially if constantly being squeezed) but true gynecomastia is not swelling.
 
It's interesting, when I used to run "real" gear (before this present legal hysteria) none of us were obsessed with the use of AI's like guys are today--just a SERM on cycle (with some HcG sometimes) and clomid during PCT. It worked perfectly. I agree with you Seth, this preoccupation with very powerful AI's is not good.

On an unrelated note: I use 200 mg. caffeine (+ Alpha-GPC, Power Drive--a supplement that provides the precursors to catecholamine production, and Rhodiola) 1 1/2 hours before I work out. I also use carbs/protein (PeptoPro) both before and during my workout. Do you think the caffeine (and Power Drive), due to increased release of catecholimines, will impair insulin sensitivity, and thus the anabolic/anti-catabolic effects I'm trying to elicit from the insulin and protein?


Thanks so much for your time,

Crowbar
 
crowbar46 said:
It's interesting, when I used to run "real" gear (before this present legal hysteria) none of us were obsessed with the use of AI's like guys are today--just a SERM on cycle (with some HcG sometimes) and clomid during PCT. It worked perfectly. I agree with you Seth, this preoccupation with very powerful AI's is not good.

On an unrelated note: I use 200 mg. caffeine (+ Alpha-GPC, Power Drive--a supplement that provides the precursors to catecholamine production, and Rhodiola) 1 1/2 hours before I work out. I also use carbs/protein (PeptoPro) both before and during my workout. Do you think the caffeine (and Power Drive), due to increased release of catecholimines, will impair insulin sensitivity, and thus the anabolic/anti-catabolic effects I'm trying to elicit from the insulin and protein?


Thanks so much for your time,

Crowbar
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Possibly but so would high intensity physical activity which is why I prefer a post workout carb induced insulin spike and refeed as opposed to pre or during workout.
 
This is an interesting area: I've been following the threads at T-Nation concerning this topic, and it does seem some research as well as people's experience is showing positive results with the pre/during protocol. However, I obviously see your point or I wouldn't have asked. I'm going to be asking Bill Roberts his opinion on this; meanwhile I'm experimenting with the carb/protein pari-workout protocol.

Crowbar
 
crowbar46 said:
This is an interesting area: I've been following the threads at T-Nation concerning this topic, and it does seem some research as well as people's experience is showing positive results with the pre/during protocol. However, I obviously see your point or I wouldn't have asked. I'm going to be asking Bill Roberts his opinion on this; meanwhile I'm experimenting with the carb/protein pari-workout protocol.

Crowbar
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Even the literature is split on this one. If you are using exogenous insulin then it probably doesn't make as much differenc ebefore or after or during. But my current opinion is that post is better.
 
Seth

Ok so here it is. I have read quite a bit of what you have to say about tren related gyno and I'm a bit curious how I should go about combating what I think my issues are. Mostly a swollen almost hard knot that forms from either substance. From what I recall I had this even using tren ace alone. Now with a few cycles under my belt it pops up very easily. I have nolva on hand. Should I use this for the entire cycle? Anything else I should use for the duration? And as far as pct, what would be my best bet? Nolva and clomid? I will be using Melanotan 2 also.

This will be a low dose cycle.

50mg tren ace eod along with 50mg prop eod. I have come to realize that I respond very well at low doses. I can also go ED for both if you think I will have less sides due to blood lvls.

Thanks for the help!
 
Builtone666 said:
Seth

Ok so here it is. I have read quite a bit of what you have to say about tren related gyno and I'm a bit curious how I should go about combating what I think my issues are. Mostly a swollen almost hard knot that forms from either substance. From what I recall I had this even using tren ace alone. Now with a few cycles under my belt it pops up very easily. I have nolva on hand. Should I use this for the entire cycle? Anything else I should use for the duration? And as far as pct, what would be my best bet? Nolva and clomid? I will be using Melanotan 2 also.

This will be a low dose cycle.

50mg tren ace eod along with 50mg prop eod. I have come to realize that I respond very well at low doses. I can also go ED for both if you think I will have less sides due to blood lvls.

Thanks for the help!
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Have you had any blood work done or had a physician look at your lumps?

Nobody is going to be able to guarantee you anything (especially in the absence of bloodwork to know what is truly going on) but if I was you i would either avoid the offending AAS or use Nolva throughout. For PCT you could add clomid to the nolva or switch from nolva to clomid -- but then I might be a little worried of post-cycle gyno. Why are you using the melanotan? for the tanning effects or the erection effects? or both?
 
Had a doc look at the one side, the most bothersome, and he said it was normal haha and that I shouldn't worry about it. I would really like to avoid the puffiness, it's pretty annoying and has made me think twice about even doing another run. Have blood work done every 6 months, I would have to dig them up somehow. Yes, using the Melanotan 2 for the tan and other sides. From what I have heard it helps with libido during cycle. I also want to see just how dark i can get with minimal UV exposure. I know there is no guarantee, I have been fallowing this thread the best I can, I'm just looking for the best suggestion for for the two. So maybe I should say a hypothetical suggestion haha.

Thanks again!
 
Builtone666 said:
Had a doc look at the one side, the most bothersome, and he said it was normal haha and that I shouldn't worry about it. I would really like to avoid the puffiness, it's pretty annoying and has made me think twice about even doing another run. Have blood work done every 6 months, I would have to dig them up somehow. Yes, using the Melanotan 2 for the tan and other sides. From what I have heard it helps with libido during cycle. I also want to see just how dark i can get with minimal UV exposure. I know there is no guarantee, I have been fallowing this thread the best I can, I'm just looking for the best suggestion for for the two. So maybe I should say a hypothetical suggestion haha.

Thanks again!
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Its all hypothetical :D
 
Great post
 
Thanks! I knew I read this somewhere else by Seth a few years ago and I tried to tell people to just control estro to control prolactin issues. Not many took my advice seriously. It's nice to see an expert confirming it tho.
 
Have to bump this... there's still so many discussions going on about progesterone and prolactin and designer tren gyno that it deserves to be re-read!

Hats off to Seth and Eric, great discussion.

BTW, for what it's worth... a low dose of .6mg Letro E3D and 1400mg of Vitex seems to help alleviate post-cycle gyno symptoms. Unusually the gyno reared it's ugly head during the third week of a 20mg ED Nolva pct which led me to believe that prolactin played a role. The gyno lump must have crept up on cycle but the puffy/enlarged nips (which I can only attribute to increased prolactin) def. arrived week 3 pct. FYI my cycle was a ph tren and 11-keto 8 week cut.
 
rokkus said:
Have to bump this... there's still so many discussions going on about progesterone and prolactin and designer tren gyno that it deserves to be re-read!

Hats off to Seth and Eric, great discussion.

BTW, for what it's worth... a low dose of .6mg Letro E3D and 1400mg of Vitex seems to help alleviate post-cycle gyno symptoms. Unusually the gyno reared it's ugly head during the third week of a 20mg ED Nolva pct which led me to believe that prolactin played a role. The gyno lump must have crept up on cycle but the puffy/enlarged nips (which I can only attribute to increased prolactin) def. arrived week 3 pct. FYI my cycle was a ph tren and 11-keto 8 week cut.
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throw in some p5p, more effective than vitex, imo.
 
Bumping this thread after having read through it in its entirety not least because it deserves to be seen but also because I'm hoping to get some insight into my own gyno troubles.

I believe i developed a mild case of gyno at some point during puberty which never went away. I started cycling at age 21 about 1 year ago - first cycle was just basic test e with arimidex at 0.5mg ed. I was scared that the test would cause my pubertal gyno to flare up but it didn't, and so i thought hey maybe I'm not all that susceptible to it!

Along comes my next cycle and I'm running Tren with a test base for a few months and everything seems fine. At this point I added 5iu ED of generic GH to my regiment and after about 2 weeks started to notice my nipples were puffier than usual . They have always been puffy to an extent I think and never looked quite right except when hard, but this was something else. I did some reading and what do you know it would appear that GH is known to cause gyno because it's structurally similar to prolactin (or something). I dropped the GH completely and within a few days things were back to "normal". I should note that i had been running caber at 0.5mg e3d all throughout this Tren cycle. I understand that caber won't do anything for gyno caused by GH but thought is I'd mention it anyway, especially due to what happened next..

Everything seemed to be fine at this point and although my nipples were still naturally puffy this is how things have been since even my earliest recollections of life. So that's cool. Except for the fact that 2 weeks later gyno reared its head again. I figured this was Tren related so I dropped Tren and introduced superdrol. Since adding superdrol things have actually gotten a lot worse. I am taking 2.5mg letro and 0.5mg caber ED but it doesn't seem to be having an effect. My own thoughts and things I should note:

- I've played around with AI's including letro at 2.5mg all throughout this cycle so that plus the fact that I've been running Tren all throughout I dare say that my SHBG levels are absolutely tanked? HOWEVER, I am currently not taking any exogenous testosterone whatsoever, and am relying on proviron for sex drive etc. I don't know how that affects things? Can there still be excess free floating estrogen due to low SHBG when there is no test being introduced or produced?

- I figure that the cause of this is a mixture of the following:

Tren for a long time = low SHBG so no protection from breast growth
AIs for a long time = same as above
GH use = caused gyno directly but also probably Igf levels are still raised anyway which is a factor for gyno in itself

I'm still taking 2.5mg letro ed with no test whatsoever - is there any chance that SHBG could be low enough that estrogen could still be the issue?

Perhaps it's because I've been running caber for so long with brief stints of up to 1mg per day - I read that too much for too long could have the opposite effect and cause raised prolactin levels?

This post is a bit of a mess because its basically a splattering of my thoughts written down with no direction whatsoever. Doesn't help that I wrote this all on my phone either!

I recognise that I can be reckless with the amount of hormones I use and seem to favour the shotgun approach, but please don't let that be the focus of your reply!

Thanks!
 
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