Why you shouldn't eat breakfast

[ozarkaBRAND]

I have a double B.A., in Philosophy and Sociology!

I've taken a big interest in philosophy lately. I picked up an in general type philosophy book, sort of textbookish. Any recommendations?

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I've taken a big interest in philosophy lately. I picked up an in general type philosophy book, sort of textbookish. Any recommendations?

Cambridge Guides to:

Kant
Hegel
Russell
Kierkgaard
Soron
Decartes
Hume
Sarte
Heidegger
Nietzche
Rationalism
Existentialism

For some more introductory reading [less Philosophical]:

Foucault's: Discipline and Punishment, and History of Sexuality.

Nietzche's: Will to Power

Marx's: 1844 Manuscripts; particularly Private Property and Communism and Private Property and Capitalism.

 

[crazyfool405]

Yes, exactly. Mostly through casual reading and so forth. A customer would ask a question/make a comment and I would research do answer that question [firstly out of hobby, then after out of vocation].



Hmm, I have no idea really. That is a bit like asking, "Where did you learn to workout?" I mean, you could say "I started here", or "this person first showed me...." but you couldn't really summate what you know in a single place!

where would one start? any books? anything in particular that a novice can read and learn that you reccommend over something else?

 

[Mulletsoldier]

where would one start? any books? anything in particular that a novice can read and learn that you reccommend over something else?

I honestly would not know what to tell you dude. I began reading my mother's old textbooks and began from there!

 

[PowerlifterMB]

Crazyfool: I highly recommend the book Understanding Nutrition as a good book that goes over in depth the macro nutrients as well as how the body reacts to them. It really has everything you need to know unless you've taken college courses but this book is, I'm sure going to teach you a lot as it did me.

 

[jakellpet]

Cambridge Guides to:

Kant
Hegel
Russell
Kierkgaard
Soron
Decartes
Hume
Sarte
Heidegger
Nietzche
Rationalism
Existentialism

For some more introductory reading [less Philosophical]:

Foucault's: Discipline and Punishment, and History of Sexuality.

Nietzche's: Will to Power

Marx's: 1844 Manuscripts; particularly Private Property and Communism and Private Property and Capitalism.

nilhilism is a great subject to explore :thumbsup:

 

[CopyCat]

I have actually considered taking this approach. I figure I will add some pounds to my frame then maybe go that route. I am not even going to try to get involved in this debate and it is way over my head.

I'm not getting into this debate either because some of this is over my head as well. I mean I do have a good understanding, but there are some things that have been said that have lost me. I'm just gonna follow along and absorb.

I didn't know what I was about to start when I posted this thread. Hahaha

 

[crazyfool405]

Crazyfool: I highly recommend the book Understanding Nutrition as a good book that goes over in depth the macro nutrients as well as how the body reacts to them. It really has everything you need to know unless you've taken college courses but this book is, I'm sure going to teach you a lot as it did me.

i have a very good understanding of nutrition

the pathways that mullet speaks of is what i need to grasp better.

(graduating soon with a BS in nutrition)

 

[CopyCat]

Here's more talk and info on nutrition I posted a while back. Check it.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/nutrition-health/92572-fuel-talk-pt.html

 

[Aggravated]

Skip breakfast? I would never consider that. Not because I'd be afraid my muscle will fall off but I when I wake up...I AM HUNGRY.

HAHA WORD!

 

[PowerlifterMB]

i have a very good understanding of nutrition

the pathways that mullet speaks of is what i need to grasp better.

(graduating soon with a BS in nutrition)

Oh that's cool,still a good book thoguh.

 

[smoke dog]

Mr. Mulletsoldier, it would appear that you are a quite meticulous and thorough examiner of ones logical fallacies. Unfortunately you indulged in a long winded, yet valid, response which attempted to correct points which were already made(albeit hastily summarized).

Yes Type 2B(IIx) muscle fibers are classified as intermediate utilizers of both glycolytic and oxidative pathways. As I stated this in my initial post.

I see how you may have assumed a few potentially false assumption that i may have appeared to make in my post. Yet again you have skipped right over what was actually said, and made certain criticisms based on what i should have more thoroughly explained. I never stated that Type 2B muscle fibers had the highest potential for hypertrophy, nor did i state any further assumptions of this particular fibers role.

To clarify; Genetic predisposition is the ultimate deciding factor of muscle type proportion and distribution. The percentage of any given type of skeletal muscle fiber is also largely influenced by its anatomical place in the body(structure tells of function). Fast twitch muscle fibers (especially 2a)have the greatest capacity for hypertrophy and strength/power output. To increase relative performance you must develop all aspects of performance (Strength, Power, Endurance, est)

I appreciate your knowledge, in depth responses, and critical thinking skills as applied to strength and fitness. But of coarse i have a couple issues with some things you have stated.

#1 Sarcoplasmic fluid is largely dependent on ones muscular glycogen stores. So, based on your statements, how exactly would one increase intramuscular fluid in a glycogen depleted state?
#2 What information are you basing your statement that "Type 2a fibers DO have a high oxidative capacity." ? Every book i have says the opposite...

Do you seriously feel that fasted strength training is an efficient way to burning fat and build strength? Based on my research i am skeptical to say the least. Although, with adequate bcaa and possibly some additional supplementation this may be realistic? What do you think? Please feel free to joust.:thumbsup:

 

[smoke dog]

glucose isnt really necessary nutrient your body can deal without it and much more effectivly IMO QUOTE]

I hope you are referring to single sugar dietary dextrose/ glucose. Glucose is extremely important for nearly every basic cellular function. It is stored in the liver and skeletal muscle tissues as glycogen. I'm sure you must have been referring to dietary simple sugars ie glucose; seeing as you are working on a degree in nutrition.... :think:

 

[Omen]

glucose isnt really necessary nutrient your body can deal without it and much more effectivly IMO

I hope you are referring to single sugar dietary dextrose/ glucose. Glucose is extremely important for nearly every basic cellular function. It is stored in the liver and skeletal muscle tissues as glycogen. I'm sure you must have been referring to dietary simple sugars ie glucose; seeing as you are working on a degree in nutrition.... :think:

Ingestion of glucose is not necessary for survival or optimum health.

In maintenance I like to keep them to 5-20 grams/day when cutting/bulking they can be as low as maintenance or as high as 500(on select days)

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

I'm trying this out, to a degree, come tomorrow. If/when I wake up, I ain't eating nothing, not for at least a couple hours. Oh yeah, I may even get my workout for tomorrow in before I eat. We shall see how it goes.

Any thoughts on taking PEA during my fasted duration?

 

[jakellpet]

smoke dog vs the mullet - battle of the titans :lol:

I am so subbed into the ensuring debate :thumbsup:

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Yes Type 2B(IIx) muscle fibers are classified as intermediate utilizers of both glycolytic and oxidative pathways. As I stated this in my initial post.

Correction, this is what you said:

They are also easily fatigued and primarily use the Glycolytic and Creatine Phosphate energy channels. The oxidative capacity of this muscle is VERY VERY LOW.

I am unsure how much more clear than a capitalized 'very' repeated three times can be. In your initial post you attempted to posit Type IIx fibers as having a low oxidative capacity. Nothing taken out of context or misinterpreted there.

I see how you may have assumed a few potentially false assumption that i may have appeared to make in my post. Yet again you have skipped right over what was actually said, and made certain criticisms based on what i should have more thoroughly explained. I never stated that Type 2B muscle fibers had the highest potential for hypertrophy, nor did i state any further assumptions of this particular fibers role.

No? So there is another reason why you said:

FASTED STRENGTH or POWER TRAINING IS USELESS!!!!!!!!

Capitalized with seven exclamation marks directly preceding your explanation [and mistaken] positioning as Type IIx as the [apparently] most important fiber type in power training?

To clarify; Genetic predisposition is the ultimate deciding factor of muscle type proportion and distribution. The percentage of any given type of skeletal muscle fiber is also largely influenced by its anatomical place in the body(structure tells of function). Fast twitch muscle fibers (especially 2a)have the greatest capacity for hypertrophy and strength/power output. To increase relative performance you must develop all aspects of performance (Strength, Power, Endurance, est)

Exactly. Which is why I was confused about your above post. You seemed to make it disregarding the importance of fiber composition re: The Oxidative Pathway.

#1 Sarcoplasmic fluid is largely dependent on ones muscular glycogen stores. So, based on your statements, how exactly would one increase intramuscular fluid in a glycogen depleted state?

How is one glycogen depleted after a fasted-rest state? Unless you are running marathons in your sleep, Glycogenesis from the preceding day will have muscle-belly stores amply supplied. We undergo nocturnal lipolysis [due to myriad hormone release, somewhat unrelated to this conversation] because of the compact nature of FFAs, and the low-demand for the mitochondrial oxidation of FAs; as opposed to the energy required for Glycolysis/Glycogenolysis, and the associated low-energy yield. Your glycogen stores will remain largely untouched overnight, and, unless your diet is horrible, will be more than adequate for the proceeding morning.

Further, this nocturnal hydrolyzation of stored triglycerides is precisely why [despite your assertion] that resistance training in a fasted state will literally burn fat. The body merely positions FAs as the primary oxidative substrate and utilizes energy which would have been redeposited.

#2 What information are you basing your statement that "Type 2a fibers DO have a high oxidative capacity." ? Every book i have says the opposite...

Odd, you must be reading them wrong. Most entry-level textbooks position Type IIa as having an intermediate-to-high oxidative capacity, with Type IIb being the lowest, and Type I being the highest [with the inverse being true of the glycolytic pathway]. Though, much of the research utilizing muscle biopsies I have seen lately suggests that Type IIa fibers have an extremely high potential for increasing their oxidative capacity with continued bouts of resistance training [the studies I posted which you ignored J/K, :lol:]

Do you seriously feel that fasted strength training is an efficient way to burning fat and build strength? Based on my research i am skeptical to say the least. Although, with adequate bcaa and possibly some additional supplementation this may be realistic? What do you think? Please feel free to joust.:thumbsup:

I do, though I am unsure which research you would be referring to? As I see it, you may be caught in the stigma that the glycolytic pathway is a snap-point reaction, and that if you do not eat one hour preceding your workout your body will have no glycogen. Such is absolutely not the case. Unless you:

a) Have a horrid diet;
b) Ran a marathon directly preceding your rest period or;
c) Ran a marathon in your sleep.

Your glycogen stores will be adequate to increase sarcoplasmic fluid during a bout of fasted training.

This is the supplement program that I associate with my fasted training [kudos to B5150 for compiling it]:

Upon Rising: Fasted
USPLabs Recreate™ - 2 caps [norepinephrine, T3/T4, HSL increase to modulate energy metabolism; caffeine for additional FA oxidation; cactus alkaloids to suppress hunger]
USPLabs PowerFULL™ - 3 caps [tangential GH increase to further induce lipolysis; Dopamine induction to regulate the satiation pathway and increase peak torque production]
USPLabs AnabolicPump™ - 1 cap [AMPk induction with its myriad effects on regulating the lipogenic/lipolytic pathway]

+30 mins later intra w/o drink:
Xtend BCAA - 12.5g
NutraPlanet Leucine - 7g
NutraPlanet Beta Alanine - 3g
NutraPlanet Creatine Mono - 2.5g
[these all have their obvious place - no need to explain]

Immediately following last set: 1 P-Slin dumped in shake:

Immediate Post Work Out Shake:
Xtend BCAA - 12.5g
NutraPlanet Leucine - 7g
NutraPlanet Beta Alanine - 3g
NutraPlanet Creatine Mono - 2.5g
Ground oats - 90g

 

[crazyfool405]

Oh that's cool,still a good book thoguh.

yea its all good.

 

[crazyfool405]

glucose isnt really necessary nutrient your body can deal without it and much more effectivly IMO QUOTE]

I hope you are referring to single sugar dietary dextrose/ glucose. Glucose is extremely important for nearly every basic cellular function. It is stored in the liver and skeletal muscle tissues as glycogen. I'm sure you must have been referring to dietary simple sugars ie glucose; seeing as you are working on a degree in nutrition.... :think:

i dont really agree with some stuff they teach at all.

look at the link i put up a lil while back on this forum....

i personally feel much better on low carb moderate fat and high protein.

also my blood work always comes back better when on it.


read up on it,

also for people that have seizures they INDUCE ketoACIDOSIS (which is not particularly safe) to help with the seizures.

and people live with seizures their whole life and this is a treatment for it.;....

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Made this post a second ago which is relevant to the conversation:

Most definitely. I remember when I first introduced it, only really B5150 and Snagency picked up the program and modified it to suit their needs. Which is, of course, totally understandable; people will use what has always worked for them, and rightfully so.

However, most will have an immediate backlash to fasted training because of the accepted train of thought in weight-training: Carbs, carbs, carbs, carbs, carbs! I think many do not realize that the body's sole purpose for accumulating fatty acids into stored triglycerides is to use them as energy; and that is why our bodies are so efficient at increasing our WAT [white adipose tissue] stores. Glucose is simply the secondary mechanism for energy provision for most tissue types; this is also why excess glucose can be converted to triglycerides: Triglycerides are a more efficient and compact energy source.

Also, the oxidative phosphorylation of fatty acids has a higher energy yield than the oxidative phosphorylation of glucose, and therefore, provides more energy per gram [remembering a gram of carbohydrates has four calories while a gram of fat has nine calories]. This is due to several factors, including the catalyzing necessary to enter each into the Krebs Cycle, as well as the fact that Fatty Acids are hydrophobic [do not bind to water]. I believe when worked out in proportion, fatty acids carry six times the amount of energy as carbohydrates; and following, if the body relied on carbohydrates as its primary energy source [instead of fatty acids], your body would need to be comprised of about 34% glycogen.

Barring any serious physiological impingements, our bodies are incredibly efficient systems meant to keep energy in almost perfect homeostasis; people seem to think, for whatever reason, that the lipogenic process is somehow precluded from this system! Training fasted merely utilizes the body's own natural processes to maximize performance; it merely utilizes energy stores which would have been wasted.

 

[crazyfool405]

mullet what about someone on a keto diet (lets pretend theres no refeeds for a second...)

would fasted training be helpful for weight loss or induce muscle catabolism due to depleted glycogen stores?

i see what you are saying though with fasted training and glycogen stores,

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

Way I see it, we evolved eating carbs (from veggies and fruits, fuck grains), so why not eat them? Will keep you out of ketosis more than likely, but the overall carb count will be low, and your overall health will surely benefit.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

mullet what about someone on a keto diet (lets pretend theres no refeeds for a second...)

would fasted training be helpful for weight loss or induce muscle catabolism due to depleted glycogen stores?

i see what you are saying though with fasted training and glycogen stores,

Well, permanent Ketosis is different that the induction of a quasi-ketogenic state with proper supplementation to 'spur' the body into doing so. I am not suggesting a permanent glycogen depleted state, as that would ultimately be counterintuitive to gaining muscle.

This is why I enjoy my program: One receives the benefit of reducing adipose stores, while simultaneously placing the body in a state of preferential energy use and not risking muscle-wasting.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Way I see it, we evolved eating carbs (from veggies and fruits, fuck grains)

I'm not saying not to, bruv; merely suggesting that, when used properly and tangentially, fasted training has its place in a balanced training and nutrition regime.

Plus, we actually evolved eating animal protein and fat predominantly! Carbohydrates were beyond a secondary food source [and both forensic anthropological evidence and the way our bodies metabolize fatty acids v., carbohydrates tell us this!] :thumbsup:

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

I'm not saying not to, bruv; merely suggesting that, when used properly and tangentially, fasted training has its place in a balanced training and nutrition regime.

Plus, we actually evolved eating animal protein and fat predominantly! Carbohydrates were beyond a secondary food source [and both forensic anthropological evidence and the way our bodies metabolize fatty acids v., carbohydrates tell us this!] :thumbsup:

I was just stating in general Mulleto! Also, if I implied that carbs were or should be the primary source of nutrition, well, my bad, I don't think that at all!

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I was just stating in general Mulleto! Also, if I implied that carbs were or should be the primary source of nutrition, well, my bad, I don't think that at all!

Oops, I may have misinterpreted you a bit there. I simply meant that in terms of food evolution, so to speak, it has only been relatively recently that we have begun consuming carbohydrates as a dominant source of food energy [...and also have glucose-impairment diseases as a consequence :lol:]

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

Oops, I may have misinterpreted you a bit there. I simply meant that in terms of food evolution, so to speak, it has only been relatively recently that we have begun consuming carbohydrates as a dominant source of food energy [...and also have glucose-impairment diseases as a consequence :lol:]

Yes. The agricultural revolution... more like,

The Agricultural Apocalypse :twisted:

 

[crazyfool405]

Well, permanent Ketosis is different that the induction of a quasi-ketogenic state with proper supplementation to 'spur' the body into doing so. I am not suggesting a permanent glycogen depleted state, as that would ultimately be counterintuitive to gaining muscle.

This is why I enjoy my program: One receives the benefit of reducing adipose stores, while simultaneously placing the body in a state of preferential energy use and not risking muscle-wasting.

the way i see it is good for 3 -4 days after a refeed meal (depending on how many carbs you ingest) on a keto diet, or everyday on a bulk diet because your glycogen stores will most likely always be full.

 

[MattRoeske]

Thats not right, IF you eat correctly thru out the entire day - Low Glycemic + High Glycemic (pre-post workout&morning) Your energy is thru the roof 24/7 and so is your metabolism.

And when you dont eat your body eats itself, Look @ The celeb's.

U have to feed your body the fuel that is designed for.

And this quote "Having breakfast is only hailed as the weight loss king because some people may just end up over eating later on from not being able to handle a little hunger and think they are wasting away…..in the end it’s still total calories in a day…whether 3 meals or 6." <------ Maybe if you're trying to be a fat a**. because if you eat 3 meals of 3000cals or 6 meals of 400-500 which do you think would digest better. And you wouldnt put on ALL FAT. Plus your blood sugar, would be all f'd up and your energy levels would be terrible. Welcome to all the people who i sit down with at the gym.

 

[smoke dog]

I must apologize, as i seem to have taken the information from your initial response as fact. Type 2b and type 2x are not referring to the same fiber.

You insist that type 2b muscle fibers are intermediate utilizers of oxidative and glycolytic pathways. (This is actually true of type 2x or FOG fibers)... Here is the most laymen links i could find to help lay this out for you.

isokinetics.net/advanced/musclefibertypes.htm

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeletal_muscle

It appears that we may have been talking about two different things. In which case some of this discussion becomes irrelevant.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Here is the most laymen links i could find to help lay this out for you.

isokinetics.net/advanced/musclefibertypes.htm

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeletal_muscle

Oh jeez, please tell me you are kidding. At any rate, you may have missed this using your source:

Type II fibers come in three primary sub-types, called type IIa, IIx, and IIb. Recent studies[3] show that human skeletal muscle contains type I, IIa, and IIx fibers, though confusingly, human IIx fibers used to be referred to as type IIb. Types IIa, IIx, and IIb fibers are found in skeletal muscle of other mammals (e.g., rodents and cats).

I think you are a bit confused. Type IIx fibers used to be Type IIb and do have an intermediate oxidative capacity. So unless you have been arguing about rat muscle fibers, then you are pretty mistaken. Which makes the fact you offered to 'lay it out in layman's terms' a bit funny, I must say.

As you can see by the source that you decided to use, Type IIx are intermediate oxidizers of FAs; while Type IIa [the important type] are high oxidizers.

Invalid Link Removed

:thumbsup:

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I must apologize, as i seem to have taken the information from your initial response as fact. Type 2b and type 2x are not referring to the same fiber.

You insist that type 2b muscle fibers are intermediate utilizers of oxidative and glycolytic pathways. (This is actually true of type 2x or FOG fibers)... Here is the most laymen links i could find to help lay this out for you.

isokinetics.net/advanced/musclefibertypes.htm

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeletal_muscle

It appears that we may have been talking about two different things. In which case some of this discussion becomes irrelevant.

Allow me to help you get this fiber issue straightened out; using a much better source than Wikipedia:

Invalid Link Removed

First, notice the nomenclature used:

As you can see, the proper nomenclature is Type IIx. Now, in discussing the irrelevant nature of Type IIx fibers:

As you can also see, Type IIa fibers [having a high oxidative capacity] come to almost universally dominant in trained individuals. What I stated previously:

You have a point in terms of power training [i.e., 1-3 rep training, long rests, and very acute bouts of training] but have absolutely no point in regards to a more aesthetically-tuned training regime which incorporates more than Type IIx fibers. Bodybuilding, to increase sarcoplasmic fluid capacity, does not predominantly use Type IIx fiber type. As a result of consistent bouts of resistance training [multiple weeks in a row], Type IIa fiber activation takes precedent over Type IIx! The role of Type IIx as the power fiber had been misunderstood for some time: In very acute [see: completely untrained individuals forced to complete an arduous task] Type IIx is the power fiber; however, in trained individuals [see: the vast majority of us on this site] Type IIa fibers come to dominate:

In fact, Sharon et al (1991), Adams et al (1993) and other studies display a proportionate decrease in Type IIx fibers with long bouts of resistance training [12 weeks and over]. Training of the type most people here utilize does not demand Type IIb fiber activation as you suggest! In Sharon et al's study, the decrease in Type IIx fibers was from 16% to 0.9%. As a result, I am not sure your point was well made!

If you wish to continue this discussion, you have a bit of sorting to do. My mistake in this conversation was assuming you knew what you were speaking about when, respectfully, you do not!

 

[smoke dog]

I thank you for your thorough and detailed responses. I am a bit disappointed in myself for basing most of my statements on the first book i picked up (NCSF advanced concepts personal training). In this book, published in 2007, it clearly designates 3 muscle types; 1,2a, and 2b, designating 2b as fast twitch/fast fatigue, highest power/largest diameter. Apparently my points of reference were flawed and i was mislead.

Now, back to the matter at hand. Fasted workouts...

Most trained individuals have a sufficient amount of glycogen stored in their muscles and liver for a relatively short bout of fasted resistance training. The depletion of muscle glycogen occurs at a considerably higher rate during anaerobic metabolism vs aerobic.

Once your muscles become glycogen depleted, the next level of energy is your body fat stores. The utilization of fat for energy (lipolysis) is a process to which breaks down triglycerides into glycerol and three fatty acid chains. Then in order to turn the fatty acid chains into usable units of muscle energy they must go through another process called gluconeogenesis. These process for utilizing body fat during high intensity strength training are not nearly as immediate as Glycogenolysis, ATP, or Creatine Phosphate synthesis.

What i propose is that when preforming fasted state strength training, allow yourself longer rest periods between sets, and keep your workouts to <60 minutes. This seems like a logical and effective balance.

Yet a more traditional method may be used in a similar way. Prioritize your workout so that you are doing higher weight compound exercises first, higher rep isolated movements second, and finish with cardio. In this pretty traditional sequence you are utilizing nearly all of your immediate muscle glycogen stores with strength as the priority. Then your bodies next energy source, fat, will be burned almost exclusively and very efficiently by your extremely vascular and mitochondrial rich type 1 muscle fibers during you post weight training cardio session.

Personally, fasted morning cardio is as far as i will delve into intentionally fasted exercising. I have had first hand experiences with fasted strength training during summer training for football. I noticed increased perspiration, slightly decreased muscular endurance, and MUCH faster fatigue during heavy lifting. The running was not greatly effected, but i was so past hungry after 2+ hours of starved activity that i was in a totally hypoglycemic state which brought headaches, nausea, and fatigue. Obviously this is a rather extreme example and is not a valid comparison to <60 minute gym workouts

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I thank you for your thorough and detailed responses. I am a bit disappointed in myself for basing most of my statements on the first book i picked up (NCSF advanced concepts personal training). In this book, published in 2007, it clearly designates 3 muscle types; 1,2a, and 2b, designating 2b as fast twitch/fast fatigue, highest power/largest diameter. Apparently my points of reference were flawed and i was mislead.

Maybe a lesson for a more humble approach in the future?

Most trained individuals have a sufficient amount of glycogen stored in their muscles and liver for a relatively short bout of fasted resistance training. The depletion of muscle glycogen occurs at a considerably higher rate during anaerobic metabolism vs aerobic.

Yes. And?

Once your muscles become glycogen depleted, the next level of energy is your body fat stores. The utilization of fat for energy (lipolysis) is a process to which breaks down triglycerides into glycerol and three fatty acid chains. Then in order to turn the fatty acid chains into usable units of muscle energy they must go through another process called gluconeogenesis. These process for utilizing body fat during high intensity strength training are not nearly as immediate as Glycogenolysis, ATP, or Creatine Phosphate synthesis.

You are missing how the body switches between oxidative substrates in times of immediate glucose [see: not glycogen, but glucose] depravation [see: Ketosis]. The hydroylzation of intramuscular triglyceride stores and subsequent mitochondrial B-Oxidation can become the primary oxidative energy mechanism for anaerobic metabolism; as I stated before.

Also, you are terribly confused, and need to cease stating your inconsistencies and falsehoods as absolute fact! Only glycerol becomes part of the gluconeogenesis and glycolysis pathway; once separated from the glycerol molecule, fatty acids are beta-oxidized [dehydrogenated-hydrogenated-dehydrogenated] into acetyl-CoA in order to enter into the TCA/Krebs cycle. Anabolic Pump is particularly useful in this sense as it inhibits the carboxylation of acetyl-CoA into malonyl-CoA [key inhibitor of CPT-1, the rate-limiting enzyme for B-Oxidation], and also catalyzes the conversion by upregulating levels of MCD [malonyl-CoA-decarboxylase]: Necessarily increasing energy stores in a stated of fasted training.

Yet a more traditional method may be used in a similar way. Prioritize your workout so that you are doing higher weight compound exercises first, higher rep isolated movements second, and finish with cardio. In this pretty traditional sequence you are utilizing nearly all of your immediate muscle glycogen stores with strength as the priority. Then your bodies next energy source, fat, will be burned almost exclusively and very efficiently by your extremely vascular and mitochondrial rich type 1 muscle fibers during you post weight training cardio session.

That is fine. I never said fasted training was the epitome of training; merely that it was plausible and effective.

Personally, fasted morning cardio is as far as i will delve into intentionally fasted exercising. I have had first hand experiences with fasted strength training during summer training for football. I noticed increased perspiration, slightly decreased muscular endurance, and MUCH faster fatigue during heavy lifting. The running was not greatly effected, but i was so past hungry after 2+ hours of starved activity that i was in a totally hypoglycemic state which brought headaches, nausea, and fatigue. Obviously this is a rather extreme example and is not a valid comparison to <60 minute gym workouts

You had this entire discussion not knowing how the body switches between oxidative substrates for energy; not knowing the nomenclature and oxidative capacity of muscle fiber types; and having never tried what I was suggesting. You are a piece of work!

 

[jlh154]

Agree wholeheartedly. My daily energy is much better if I eat light or just use meal replacements early in the day.

 

[Dyou]

oh my god all this hurts my brain... i am more confused now then i ever have been lol

 

[smoke dog]

Beaten into submission......:trout:



!!! ALL BOW TO THE MULLET !!!


:box::box::box::box::box:

 

[shinivan]

Yo mullet, in all honesty, i am very impressed with this kind of protocol and all its scientific evidence. I have a question myself and it is not based on extensive theory or science but rather in what i have experienced in this kind of situation.
Training first thing am i feel somewhat in tune to go train just like that after a good night's sleep. I trully am not hungry at all and all i can chug is some drink (usually some bcaa and jacked is my choice personally) HOwever, too tend to feel kinda nausea and extreme hunger past a good hour of workout with weights. My question is, what is the scientific reasoning behind this phenomenon? What i mean is in relation to exercise, muscle catabolism, fat loss, etc you know all that good stuff that matter to us.

I wonder if harm or good is being done here. My instinctive logic is that although the body may be whining for energy in the form of some food, i am sure that the body is better than that and in my opinion is just playing me games while actually metabolically working the way you have described, is that correct??

 

[AaronJP1]

Invalid Link Removed

Why You Shouldn’t Eat Breakfast…Again
May 21, 2008

Photo by hoveringdog
So when you see that stack above….what’s the first thing that comes to mind? Well they are “whole wheat” so it must be healthy. Ha! You know what I think of? Going into a coma and sleeping for hours after I eat it. I imagine huge brain fog and needing a pot of coffee to stay awake for the day. I picture getting nothing really done but taking all day to do it. Breakfast….the illusion for health and weight loss as sold by the general public. Think of the name….”Break” Fast…..you break the fast…..well if I am doing IF…I don’t want to break the fast just now. But how will I survive? Will I lose all my muscle by skipping one meal? Will my metabolism pack up it’s bags and leave? I mean….without breakfast how will I ever get anything done all day…I need energy right? Sound familiar?
While we are talking about it, I came across this great read from Ori Hofmekler (author of the warrior diet). It actually goes very nicely with the Why Workout Fasted post and the Why Stress is Making You Sick and Fat post. Here’s the article (seen here):
When you wake-up, your body is already in an intense detox mode, clearing itself of endotoxins and digestive waste from the past evening meal.

During the morning hours, when digestion is fully completed (while you are on an empty stomach), a primal survival mechanism, known as fight or flight reaction to stress, is triggered, maximizing your body’s capacity to generate energy, be alert, resist fatigue and resist stress.

This highly geared survival mode is primarily dominated by part of the autonomic nervous system known as the SNS (sympathetic nervous system). At that state, the body is in its most energy-producing phase and that’s when most energy comes from fat burning. All that happens when you do not eat the typical morning meal.

If however you follow what “normal guys” do and eat your morning bagel and cereal and egg & bacon, you’ll most likely shut down the above energy producing system.

The SNS and its fight or flight mechanism will be substantially suppressed. Instead, your morning meal will trigger an antagonistic part of the automatic nervous system known as the PSNS (Para sympathetic nervous system), which makes you sleepy, slow and less resilient to fatigue and stress.

Instead of spending energy and burning fat, your body will be more geared towards storing energy and gaining fat. Under this state, detox would be inhibited. The overall metabolic stress would increase with toxins accumulating in the liver, giving the body another substantial reason to gain fat. (Fat tissues serve as a biological storage for toxins)

The overall suppressing effects of morning meals, can lead to energy crashes during the daily (working) hours, often with chronic cravings for pick-up foods, sweets, coffee and tobacco. Eating at the wrong time, would severely interrupt the body’s ability to be in tune with the circadian clock. The human body has never adapted to such interruptions. We are primarily pre-programmed to rotate between the two autonomic nervous system parts: the daily SNS and the nightly PSNS.

The SNS regulates alertness and action during the day, while PSNS regulates relaxation, digestion and sleep during the nightly hours. Any interruption in this primal daily cycle, may lead into sleepiness during the day followed by sleeping disorders at night.

Morning meals must be carefully designed not to suppress the SNS and its highly energetic state. Minimizing morning food intake to fruits, veggie soup or small amounts of fresh light protein foods, such as poached or boiled eggs, plain yogurt, or white cheese, will maintain the body in an undereating phase, while promoting the SNS with its energy producing properties.

*Note: Athletes who exercise in the morning should turn breakfast into a post-exercise recovery meal. Such meals should consist of small amounts of fresh protein plus carbs such as yogurt and banana, eggs plus a bowl of oatmeal, or cottage cheese with berries.

An insulin spike is necessary for effectively finalizing the anabolic actions of GH and IGF1 after exercise. Nonetheless, after the initial recovery meal, it’s highly recommended to maintain the body in an undereating phase by minimizing daily carb intake in the following meals. Applying small protein meals (minimum carbs) every couple of hours will keep sustaining the SNS during the daily hours while providing amino acids for protein synthesis in the muscle tissues, promoting a long lasting anabolic effect after exercise.

In conclusion, breakfast isn’t the most important meal of the day. The most important meals are post-exercise recovery meals. Saying that, for a WARRIOR every meal is a recovery meal helping to recuperate from either nutritional stress (undereating) or physical stress (exercise). It’s when you eat that makes what you eat matter.

Interesting stuff. One type of IF I do not recommend is what is known as Ramadan fasting, in which you eat when you wake, fast during light hours and then eat at night. (this is a Muslim practice done for a month) But during that month of Ramadan, there are also many reports of increased daytime sleepiness, children falling asleep at school, more mental “fogginess” and increased amount of motor vehicle accidents during this observance. Could it be in part to a large meal in the AM and it’s response on our system? I personally have never had so much mental clarity and consistent energy as when I decided to do IF daily and skip morning meals….and have never looked back. People are so paranoid nowadays that they will starve themselves if they skip breakfast or it will crush their metabolism….that is so untrue…as your metabolism requires many many days of low intake to even start to slow down. To think one meal can cause your metabolism to come to a screeching hault or all your muscle will be destroyed, is science based on comic book research (or just reading too many bodybuilding and fitness magazines…which are owned by supplement companies who want you to eat 6x a day and buy all their shakes and bars). Having breakfast is only hailed as the weight loss king because some people may just end up over eating later on from not being able to handle a little hunger and think they are wasting away…..in the end it’s still total calories in a day…whether 3 meals or 6.
izza:

Good read CC. I honestly hate being hungry; Recently ive been doing research and realize it's not that bad from what I've been reading. I do have some headaches, mood swings, & hunger pains. So usually when I have that I try and eat. Guess I'll try and push through them a tad bit better.

 

[howwedo107]

Life isn't worth living without my morning oatmeal and blueberries

 

[AaronJP1]

Life isn't worth living without my morning oatmeal and blueberries

Sometimes I try to eat a lot due to not knowing when I'm going to get a chance to get food in.

 

[GraceMarie123]

I eat one meal a day in the evening. I eat all I want ... even to a point I am stuffed and in pain sometimes. LOL. However, I do limit my carbs to no more than 100g p/day (usually around 60 most days). I do snack during the day sometimes, but not on carbs... usually pork rinds or plain peanut butter. I have lost 100 pounds and AM building muscle, not losing. I have tons of energy!

 

[mkneuer]

Breakfast is the most important meal. Idk how anyone can do without it.

 

[montray420]

Do you know how the glycolytic/gluconeogenic pathway operates in reference to resistance training? That is an honest question, by the way; no disrespect intended.

I ask because 'hypoglycaemia' is a bit of a misplaced term here. Also, the GIndex is a bit outdated, CF! I dislike using tools like that, as they are terribly inaccurate, but: The Insulin Index is a better indicator of what we really want to know from the GI. At any rate, who is prescribing utilizing High II foods after a fast?

I think what is being misunderstood here is the role of FA oxidation in response to training. I think most of you would be plenty surprised at how little the body truly needs glucose to function. For [most likely] the first 185, 000 years of our existence we fed off of animal fat and protein. There is a reason why our bodies have such a high FA Oxidative capacity!

We were initially meant to consume protein and fat; have you not ever wondered why we are so predisposed to glucose-related diseases? What do you feel the incidence rate if for Impaired Fatty Acid synthesis is? Hint: Nada!

we were gatherer's before we were hunters. Genetically we are made not to eat mainly meat, just like all other primates. The skill of hunting and fire gave us the availability to eat meat.