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coming off levi

so im wrapping up an 8 week cycle of 2 bottles of leviathan with great results. im almost displaying abs just need the last lbs stripped off. according to the levi bottle it is not recommended to take for more than 8 weeks. any suggestions on something else to help me lose the last bit of fat?
 
have a look into a topical fat burner like Napalm. I don't know much about it but there's loads of threads on it if you have a search :) Hope that helps!
 
Well you can use the Napalm topically at the same time as the Reloaded. Or you can switch to a different fat burner to use with the Napalm.
 
so im wrapping up an 8 week cycle of 2 bottles of leviathan with great results. im almost displaying abs just need the last lbs stripped off. according to the levi bottle it is not recommended to take for more than 8 weeks. any suggestions on something else to help me lose the last bit of fat?
all i can say is that I legitimately love this product (Leviathon)- great stuff- try stacking it with tyrosine and Drive, or if you want to come off it and then get back on- try the tyrosine and Drive for a 6 week wash-out period, and then get right back on the Levi.....
 
The main reason we recommend taking a break after 8 weeks is that your body will become tolerant to the caffeine and yohimbine, thereby reducing the thermogenic effect of the product while causing shutdown of the Adrenal Glands.

Your best bet would be to take at least 4-6 weeks of any kind of weight loss product or any supplement that has a significant amount of stimulants in it. This will allow your body to reset itself (ahem reset AD :D) and recover from the stress of your cut.
 
thanks for responses guys. i think ill just stay off the fat burners and wait for spring to cut up for the summer. levi gave me my best and prob only successful cut cycle. most fat burners make my muscles shrink and feel weaker. this is def a great product and ill highly reccomend
 
thanks for responses guys. i think ill just stay off the fat burners and wait for spring to cut up for the summer. levi gave me my best and prob only successful cut cycle. most fat burners make my muscles shrink and feel weaker. this is def a great product and ill highly reccomend
IMO if you want to continue the cut jump on some drive and grab some BCAA and beta alanine. use this to bridge till Laviathan
 
it contains :

  • icarrin- a test mimicker. enhances muscle growth
  • Forslean- increases LBM and elevates cAMP levels, speeds up metabolism, and increases diet related thermogenesis.
  • Dodder seed- enhances icariins effects
  • naringin- graprefruit to help aid in absoprtion. antioxidant. aids in metabolism
  • cordyceps- support liver, heart, kidneys. Immune support. increases blood flow and oxygen. increased sex drive

those are some of the benefits in Drive. their are many more
 
Why not put the salesman gig to the side and offer real advice instead of pushing your companies product on someone....or don't answer at all.

Drive is supposed to be a "performance-enhancer" but from my experience and reasearching the ingredient profile it's not the best. Not to say that it doesn't work just it's not the best. Besides he wanted a "FAT BURNER" not a "sports performance-enhancer" as you guys advertise Drive to be. And I don't see any ingredients in that product that would significantly aid his fat loss. My advice from personal experience would be to try DCP as it is contains no stimulants and is quite effective at cutting fat as you can see by the numerous logs and reviews done on it.
 
Well you could do that. DCP is a non stim so if your adrenals are taxed you could use it and the Napalm. Then when you are ready you can add the Reloaded back in or whatever stim you choose. Reset AD also works well to clean the system up for stim use.
 
Why not put the salesman gig to the side and offer real advice instead of pushing your companies product on someone....or don't answer at all.

Drive is supposed to be a "performance-enhancer" but from my experience and reasearching the ingredient profile it's not the best. Not to say that it doesn't work just it's not the best. Besides he wanted a "FAT BURNER" not a "sports performance-enhancer" as you guys advertise Drive to be. And I don't see any ingredients in that product that would significantly aid his fat loss. My advice from personal experience would be to try DCP as it is contains no stimulants and is quite effective at cutting fat as you can see by the numerous logs and reviews done on it.

Why all the hostility?

Texas made a valid point.....Drive is a good product for fat loss/re-comp. It contains forskolin, which allows for said effects of forskolin- which have been validated in human studies- see below:
Obes Res. 2005 Aug;13(8):1335-43. Links
Body composition and hormonal adaptations associated with forskolin consumption in overweight and obese men.Godard MP, Johnson BA, Richmond SR.
University of Kansas, Department of Health, Sport and Exercise Sciences, Applied Physiology Laboratory, Lawrence, KS 66045, USA. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: This study examined the effect of forskolin on body composition, testosterone, metabolic rate, and blood pressure in overweight and obese (BMI > or = 26 kg/m(2)) men. RESEARCH METHODS AND PROCEDURE: Thirty subjects (forskolin, n = 15; placebo, n = 15) were studied in a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study for 12 weeks. RESULTS: Forskolin was shown to elicit favorable changes in body composition by significantly decreasing body fat percentage (BF%) and fat mass (FM) as determined by DXA compared with the placebo group (p < or = 0.05). Additionally, forskolin administration resulted in a change in bone mass for the 12-week trial compared with the placebo group (p < or = 0.05). There was a trend toward a significant increase for lean body mass in the forskolin group compared with the placebo group (p = 0.097). Serum free testosterone levels were significantly increased in the forskolin group compared with the placebo group (p < or = 0.05). The actual change in serum total testosterone concentration was not significantly different among groups, but it increased 16.77 +/- 33.77% in the forskolin group compared with a decrease of 1.08 +/- 18.35% in the placebo group. DISCUSSION: Oral ingestion of forskolin (250 mg of 10% forskolin extract twice a day) for a 12-week period was shown to favorably alter body composition while concurrently increasing bone mass and serum free testosterone levels in overweight and obese

We actually use higher amounts of forskolin in Drive than they do in the study- and numerous users (many people on this board) have reported significant fat loss and lean muscle mass gains- the product has been out for over a year, with literally hundreds of reviews on it.....
 
Why not put the salesman gig to the side and offer real advice instead of pushing your companies product on someone....or don't answer at all.

Drive is supposed to be a "performance-enhancer" but from my experience and reasearching the ingredient profile it's not the best. Not to say that it doesn't work just it's not the best. Besides he wanted a "FAT BURNER" not a "sports performance-enhancer" as you guys advertise Drive to be. And I don't see any ingredients in that product that would significantly aid his fat loss. My advice from personal experience would be to try DCP as it is contains no stimulants and is quite effective at cutting fat as you can see by the numerous logs and reviews done on it.
Before you attack me read some studies....examine the ingredients a bit better. Many users have used Drive for fat loss and recomposition including myself. I would also like to add i am not throwing a 'salesman gig' I said use it as a bridge with BCAA and Beta-alanine. These all are very successful with leaning someone out.

This has been carried over to PM's so please check them.
 
i never really got a stim effect from taking levi just great muscle preservation. i believe its mainly from the boost in test but it also made me more irritable. it was a double edge sword. dcp looks like the better choice. will it preserve muscle as well?
 
Why all the hostility?


No hostility man, I know you guys are only doing your job, it's just pretty annoying when reps always come in promoting their products even if it's not the best for the given situation. It's very rare to see someone honestly say that another companies product may work better for a given situation when it's not the company you're repping for.
 
Before you attack me read some studies....examine the ingredients a bit better. Many users have used Drive for fat loss and recomposition including myself. I would also like to add i am not throwing a 'salesman gig' I said use it as a bridge with BCAA and Beta-alanine. These all are very successful with leaning someone out.

This has been carried over to PM's so please check them.

Sorry to burst your bubble, I guess I did come off a little harsh and if I were to do that with you I'd have to do the same with every rep that practices the same marketing strategy but that ofcourse would be a never ending battle.

I did do some research although I'm sure there's much more you can teach me about Drive. But please notice in my post that I said it works "but it's not the best" for his purposes. Out of all the ingredients it seems only 1-2 directly contribute to fat loss the main one being forskolin which despite all the research on it has had limited feedback in the real world when applied to fat loss although I will admit it seems to aid fat loss, no doubt. But most of the users I've heard from tend to think of it as aiding fat loss in the long run and and perhaps avoiding fat gain when on a bulk. Also there seems to be research that indicates that Forskolin can in fact be detrimental to one's health:

Psychopharmacology (Berl). 1992;106(1):136-42. Related Articles, Links


Noradrenergic receptor mechanisms in neophobia.

Steketee JD, Silverman PB, Swann AC.

Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, University of Texas Medical School, Houston.

We have previously demonstrated that depletion of forebrain norepinephrine (NE) led to an attenuation of neophobia in a novel environment, as defined by a greater preference for novel food over familiar food. To study further the role of forebrain NE in neophobia we chronically infused noradrenergic receptor ligands or forskolin into the lateral ventricles of sham and 6-hydroxydopamine dorsal bundle lesioned rats. Chronic NE infusions into lesioned animals reversed the lesion-induced shift in relative food preference. The beta receptor agonist isoproterenol had moderate effects similar to those of NE in lesioned and sham animals. Phenylephrine, an alpha-1 agonist, was without effect. Forskolin, an adenylate cyclase activator, mimicked the effects of NE infusions. These data suggest a role for noradrenergic stimulation of adenylate cyclase in neophobia.

Ofcourse we know nothing about the dose used but it's still food for thought...


Cell Signal. 2005 Sep;17(9):1111-24. Epub 2005 Feb 25.


Early immune response and regulation of IL-2 receptor subunits.

Hughes-Fulford M, Sugano E, Schopper T, Li CF, Boonyaratanakornkit JB, Cogoli A.

Northern California Institute for Research and Education, San Francisco, CA, United States. [email protected]

Affymetrix oligonucleotide arrays were used to monitor expression of 8796 genes and probe sets in activated T-cells; analysis revealed that 217 genes were significantly upregulated within 4 h. Induced genes included transcription factors, cytokines and their receptor genes. Analysis by semi-quantitative RT-PCR confirmed the significant induction of IL-2, IL-2R(gamma) and IL-2R(alpha). Forty-eight of the 217 induced genes are known to or predicted to be regulated by a CRE promoter/enhancer. We found that T-cell activation caused a significant increase in CREB phosphorylation furthermore, inhibition of the PKC pathway by GF109203 reduced CREB activation by 50% and inhibition of the PKA pathway caused a total block of CREB phosphorylation and significantly reduced IFN(gamma), IL-2 and IL-2R(alpha) gene expression by approximately 40% (p<0.001). PKC(theta) plays a major role in T-cell activation: inhibition of PKC significantly reduced the expression of IFN(gamma), IL-2 and IL-2R(alpha). Since PKC blocked activation of CREB, we studied potential cross-talk between the PKC and the PKA/MAPK pathways, PMA-stimulated Jurkat cells were studied with specific signal pathway inhibitors. Extracellular signal-regulated kinase-2 (ERK2) pathway was found to be significantly activated greater than seven-fold within 30 min; however, there was little activation of ERK-1 and no activation of JNK or p38 MAPK. Inhibition of the PKA pathway, but not the PKC pathway, resulted in inhibition of ERK1/2 activation at all time points, inhibition of MEK1 and 2 significantly blocked expression of IL-2 and IL-2R(alpha). Gene expression of IL-2R(alpha) and IFN(gamma) was dependent on PKA in S49 wt cells but not in kin- mutants. Using gel shift analysis, we found that forskolin activation of T-cells resulted in activation of AP1 sites; this increase in nuclear extract AP1 was significantly blocked by MEK1 inhibitor U0126. Taken together, these results suggest that the PKA in addition to PKC and MAPK pathways plays a role in early T-cell activation and induction of IL-2, IL-2R(alpha) and IFN(gamma) gene expression.

PMID: 15993752



Forskolin potentiaties Histamine-induced BBB pearmability:

Pharmacol Res Commun. 1985 Apr;17(4):395-404. Related Articles, Links


Evidence for the involvement of histamine in the regulation of blood-brain barrier permeability.

Gulati A, Dhawan KN, Shukla R, Srimal RC, Dhawan BN.

Role of histaminergic mechanisms in the regulation of blood-brain barrier (BBB) was assessed in dog. Histamine increased the entry of sodium fluorescein from the blood to the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) in a dose-dependent manner. Histamine receptor antagonists, mepyramine (H1) and metiamide (H2) per se did not affect the entry of dye in the CSF. Mepyramine failed to affect the change induced by histamine whereas metiamide completely blocked the histamine-induced entry of sodium fluorescein in CSF. 2-Methyl histamine, a specific H1-agonist, did not affect the barrier permeability. However, 4-methyl histamine, a specific H2 receptor agonist significantly increased the permeability of BBB. This increase was blocked by metiamide. Forskolin, a stimulant of adenylate cyclase, also increased the entry of dye in the CSF which could be significantly blocked by metiamide. It is concluded that histamine increases the permeability of BBB by affecting H2-receptors linked to adenylate cyclase.

PMID: 4040247
 
Possiblity of causing or aggravating gyno...

In PMID: 16452162

QUOTE
The precise mechanisms by which estrogens enable ductal MECs to proliferate leading to ductal outgrowth is unclear. The pattern of ERα expression in the mammary epithelium is heterogeneous (34, 37), suggesting the involvement of only a subset of ductal cells in estradiol-triggered processes. Our observation that ERα−/− cells can proliferate indicates that estradiol does not need to act directly on MECs for them to participate in proliferation and morphogenesis. Thus, it appears that estradiol, like progesterone (7), acts on a subtype of ductal cells, causing them to release paracrine signals that permit other nearby epithelial cells, both luminal and myoepithelial, to participate directly in ductal outgrowth. Wnt-4 was identified as a paracrine mediator downstream of progesterone (39), and receptor activator of NF-κB-ligand (RANKL) has also been identified as a progesterone target and implicated in mediating progesterone-induced proliferation (40, 41). Prolactin relies on insulin-like growth factor (IGF) 2 as a mediator of its morphogenic effects (40). With regard to estradiol, amphiregulin is an attractive candidate for conveying the paracrine signal. Ablation of this growth factor in the mammary epithelium causes a phenotype similar to that of ERα mutant epithelium, and its transcription is strongly induced by estrogen (L. Ciarloni and C.B., unpublished observations). Interestingly, the receptor for amphiregulin, the epidermal growth factor receptor (EGFR), is required in the fat pad (42), suggesting that the estrogen-induced paracrine-signaling loop involves the stroma. In response to amphiregulin, stromal cells in turn may release fibroblast growth factors (FGFs) that act on the epithelial cells (43).

The observation that proliferating cells in the adult mammary epithelium rarely express steroid receptors was made in mice, rats, and humans (34–36), suggesting that estrogens and progesterone generally operate by paracrine mechanism in the breast. Intriguingly, in ERα-positive human breast carcinomas, which represent 2/3 of all breast cancers, ERα-positive cells proliferate (34). This proliferation may be a reflection of increased paracrine growth stimulation. Alternatively, the rare population of ERα positive proliferating cells (37) expands as an ERα-positive tumor develops or ERα-positive cells acquire the ability to use estrogen as a direct mitogen. ERα-negative tumors, however, may escape the requirement for paracrine growth stimulation by steroid hormones by constitutively activating growth factor signaling pathways. Consistent with this model, epidermal growth factor receptor overexpression is frequently associated with ERα-negative tumors (44). The use of tissue reconstitution techniques and genetically altered cells should help to further dissect the intercellular communication involved in mammary morphogenesis and carcinogenesis.


And as for amphiregulin, in PMID: 15284208...

QUOTE
We examined the cAMP-mediated regulation of the epidermal
growth factor-like growth factor amphiregulin (AR) in T cells
and observed a strong cAMP-induced up-regulation of AR
mRNA in a time- and concentration-dependent manner independent
of T cell activation. This regulation may be mediated
in part through activation of a cAMP-responsive element in
the AR promoter, because the cAMP-responsive element conferred
cAMP responsiveness to a luciferase reporter in Jurkat
TAg cells. Similar effects of AR mRNA induction were seen in
T cells treated with cAMP-elevating agents such as prostaglandin
E2 and forskolin as well as with the phosphodiesterase
inhibitors rolipram and isobutylmethylxanthine. Furthermore,
the induction of AR mRNA by cAMP was strongly
suppressed by a protein kinase A type I-selective inhibitor,
whereas treatment with an exchange protein directly activated
by cAMP-specific agonist did not increase AR levels. In
addition, an increase in AR gene transcripts by cAMP was
seen in MCF-7 mammary carcinoma cells and H295R adrenal
cells. Moreover, the potent cAMP-mediated induction of AR
mRNA resulted in increased secretion (5-fold) of AR from T
cells. Furthermore, supernatants from cAMP-stimulated T
cells containing secreted AR induced phosphorylated MAPK
in OVCAR-3 carcinoma cells. In conclusion, our data suggest
that AR is under strong regulation by the cAMP pathway in
various cell types, and that prostaglandin E2- and cAMP-induced
AR secretion from T cells may be highly relevant in a
microenvironment consisting of tumor cells and infiltrated
immune cells, because AR by activating the MAPK pathway
through a paracrine route may contribute to proliferation of
tumor cells and thus add to neoplastic processes. (Endocrinology
145: 5177–5184, 2004)force's post:



These studies were copied and pasted from mm:
Invalid Link Removed


Now it's not say that these studies apply to everyone in the real world but if we're going to extrapolate that the studies on it's efficacy will equate to greater fat loss it's atleast fair to take these studies into consideration also...

With that said in my personal experience I didn't notice any gyno or neophobia but I also didn't notice much at all from this supplement in the first place. Did it help me in my quest for recomping? yes...but it wasn't really that substantial compared to my results off of it. I'm sure it works nice and dandy for others but it didn't work all that well for me.
 
i never really got a stim effect from taking levi just great muscle preservation. i believe its mainly from the boost in test but it also made me more irritable. it was a double edge sword. dcp looks like the better choice. will it preserve muscle as well?

DCP is pretty awesome at shedding fat assuming you diet/workout is setup correctly. Some even like to throw it in their bulks ,from what I've seen, to minimize fat gain or even recomp. I've used it for fat loss and I personally just like the fact that it's non-stimulating as I'm pretty sensitive to stims. As for preserving muscle it doesn't seem to have anything that does that,and also doesn't seem to affect my appetite at all. So if you need appetite suppresion you're not going to find it in DCP. But at pure fat loss it's pretty darn good.

Do a search brah you'll find tons of sh*t on DCP. Also look into Lean Xtreme, as it seems to be a potent fat loss product, although I've never tried it myself. LX also contains forskolin so just a heads up incase you're thinking twice about it after what I posted.

Personally I haven't come to a conclusion about forskoln but knowledge is always king.
 
i was under the assumption that forsklin boosted test. i wanted to take time off any kind of test booster after running 2 bottles of levi which is why i choose to not take lean xtreme and instead leaning towards dcp as a stand alone. i have read a lot of great feedback on lean xtreme and was thinking of running a leanxtreme/levi stack for a summer cut. would running both be too much forsklin? btw appreciate the honest response!
 
No hostility man, I know you guys are only doing your job, it's just pretty annoying when reps always come in promoting their products even if it's not the best for the given situation. It's very rare to see someone honestly say that another companies product may work better for a given situation when it's not the company you're repping for.


I like DCP as a stim-free alternative for fat-burning- and some of the L-Carns/choline are also very effective in this area as well
 
Sorry to burst your bubble, I guess I did come off a little harsh and if I were to do that with you I'd have to do the same with every rep that practices the same marketing strategy but that ofcourse would be a never ending battle.

I did do some research although I'm sure there's much more you can teach me about Drive. But please notice in my post that I said it works "but it's not the best" for his purposes. Out of all the ingredients it seems only 1-2 directly contribute to fat loss the main one being forskolin which despite all the research on it has had limited feedback in the real world when applied to fat loss although I will admit it seems to aid fat loss, no doubt. But most of the users I've heard from tend to think of it as aiding fat loss in the long run and and perhaps avoiding fat gain when on a bulk. Also there seems to be research that indicates that Forskolin can in fact be detrimental to one's health:

Psychopharmacology (Berl). 1992;106(1):136-42. Related Articles, Links


Noradrenergic receptor mechanisms in neophobia.

Steketee JD, Silverman PB, Swann AC.

Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, University of Texas Medical School, Houston.

We have previously demonstrated that depletion of forebrain norepinephrine (NE) led to an attenuation of neophobia in a novel environment, as defined by a greater preference for novel food over familiar food. To study further the role of forebrain NE in neophobia we chronically infused noradrenergic receptor ligands or forskolin into the lateral ventricles of sham and 6-hydroxydopamine dorsal bundle lesioned rats. Chronic NE infusions into lesioned animals reversed the lesion-induced shift in relative food preference. The beta receptor agonist isoproterenol had moderate effects similar to those of NE in lesioned and sham animals. Phenylephrine, an alpha-1 agonist, was without effect. Forskolin, an adenylate cyclase activator, mimicked the effects of NE infusions. These data suggest a role for noradrenergic stimulation of adenylate cyclase in neophobia.

Ofcourse we know nothing about the dose used but it's still food for thought...


Cell Signal. 2005 Sep;17(9):1111-24. Epub 2005 Feb 25.


Early immune response and regulation of IL-2 receptor subunits.

Hughes-Fulford M, Sugano E, Schopper T, Li CF, Boonyaratanakornkit JB, Cogoli A.

Northern California Institute for Research and Education, San Francisco, CA, United States. [email protected]

Affymetrix oligonucleotide arrays were used to monitor expression of 8796 genes and probe sets in activated T-cells; analysis revealed that 217 genes were significantly upregulated within 4 h. Induced genes included transcription factors, cytokines and their receptor genes. Analysis by semi-quantitative RT-PCR confirmed the significant induction of IL-2, IL-2R(gamma) and IL-2R(alpha). Forty-eight of the 217 induced genes are known to or predicted to be regulated by a CRE promoter/enhancer. We found that T-cell activation caused a significant increase in CREB phosphorylation furthermore, inhibition of the PKC pathway by GF109203 reduced CREB activation by 50% and inhibition of the PKA pathway caused a total block of CREB phosphorylation and significantly reduced IFN(gamma), IL-2 and IL-2R(alpha) gene expression by approximately 40% (p<0.001). PKC(theta) plays a major role in T-cell activation: inhibition of PKC significantly reduced the expression of IFN(gamma), IL-2 and IL-2R(alpha). Since PKC blocked activation of CREB, we studied potential cross-talk between the PKC and the PKA/MAPK pathways, PMA-stimulated Jurkat cells were studied with specific signal pathway inhibitors. Extracellular signal-regulated kinase-2 (ERK2) pathway was found to be significantly activated greater than seven-fold within 30 min; however, there was little activation of ERK-1 and no activation of JNK or p38 MAPK. Inhibition of the PKA pathway, but not the PKC pathway, resulted in inhibition of ERK1/2 activation at all time points, inhibition of MEK1 and 2 significantly blocked expression of IL-2 and IL-2R(alpha). Gene expression of IL-2R(alpha) and IFN(gamma) was dependent on PKA in S49 wt cells but not in kin- mutants. Using gel shift analysis, we found that forskolin activation of T-cells resulted in activation of AP1 sites; this increase in nuclear extract AP1 was significantly blocked by MEK1 inhibitor U0126. Taken together, these results suggest that the PKA in addition to PKC and MAPK pathways plays a role in early T-cell activation and induction of IL-2, IL-2R(alpha) and IFN(gamma) gene expression.

PMID: 15993752



Forskolin potentiaties Histamine-induced BBB pearmability:

Pharmacol Res Commun. 1985 Apr;17(4):395-404. Related Articles, Links


Evidence for the involvement of histamine in the regulation of blood-brain barrier permeability.

Gulati A, Dhawan KN, Shukla R, Srimal RC, Dhawan BN.

Role of histaminergic mechanisms in the regulation of blood-brain barrier (BBB) was assessed in dog. Histamine increased the entry of sodium fluorescein from the blood to the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) in a dose-dependent manner. Histamine receptor antagonists, mepyramine (H1) and metiamide (H2) per se did not affect the entry of dye in the CSF. Mepyramine failed to affect the change induced by histamine whereas metiamide completely blocked the histamine-induced entry of sodium fluorescein in CSF. 2-Methyl histamine, a specific H1-agonist, did not affect the barrier permeability. However, 4-methyl histamine, a specific H2 receptor agonist significantly increased the permeability of BBB. This increase was blocked by metiamide. Forskolin, a stimulant of adenylate cyclase, also increased the entry of dye in the CSF which could be significantly blocked by metiamide. It is concluded that histamine increases the permeability of BBB by affecting H2-receptors linked to adenylate cyclase.

PMID: 4040247

from my boss-
"I have taken a look at these studies, and weighed the benefits vs. risks- forskolin has been used safely for years in the US market- and the only adverse events that I have really seen from it can be upset stomach, slight itching (see below), and increased sweating (but only in fairly rare cases).....

Forskolin is something that you have to look at concerning allergies, and the final study regarding histamines may have some merit- it does have a fairly strong histamine-enhancing effect in some people- my QA can't take Drive or any product containing forskolin for this reason....

but those studies are interesting- good research!"
 
i was under the assumption that forsklin boosted test. i wanted to take time off any kind of test booster after running 2 bottles of levi which is why i choose to not take lean xtreme and instead leaning towards dcp as a stand alone. i have read a lot of great feedback on lean xtreme and was thinking of running a leanxtreme/levi stack for a summer cut. would running both be too much forsklin? btw appreciate the honest response!
You should be alright going with the two. whats making you want to avoid DCP? it and leviathan are successful with each other no doubt
 
DCP, sesamin, cla, holy basil extract (controls+lowers cortisol levels), keep up a clean diet and exercise routine. Reset AD would also be a good idea to get your adrenal glands back to 100%. If you are sub 10%bf go for a transdermal but until then I think it would be a waste of money.
 
i was under the assumption that forsklin boosted test. i wanted to take time off any kind of test booster after running 2 bottles of levi which is why i choose to not take lean xtreme and instead leaning towards dcp as a stand alone. i have read a lot of great feedback on lean xtreme and was thinking of running a leanxtreme/levi stack for a summer cut. would running both be too much forsklin? btw appreciate the honest response!
I think you will be ok if you stay in the 50-75 mg (pure forskolin, so 500-750 mg of the 10%, or 250-375 mg of the 20%)
 
Possiblity of causing or aggravating gyno...

In PMID: 16452162

QUOTE
The precise mechanisms by which estrogens enable ductal MECs to proliferate leading to ductal outgrowth is unclear. The pattern of ERα expression in the mammary epithelium is heterogeneous (34, 37), suggesting the involvement of only a subset of ductal cells in estradiol-triggered processes. Our observation that ERα−/− cells can proliferate indicates that estradiol does not need to act directly on MECs for them to participate in proliferation and morphogenesis. Thus, it appears that estradiol, like progesterone (7), acts on a subtype of ductal cells, causing them to release paracrine signals that permit other nearby epithelial cells, both luminal and myoepithelial, to participate directly in ductal outgrowth. Wnt-4 was identified as a paracrine mediator downstream of progesterone (39), and receptor activator of NF-κB-ligand (RANKL) has also been identified as a progesterone target and implicated in mediating progesterone-induced proliferation (40, 41). Prolactin relies on insulin-like growth factor (IGF) 2 as a mediator of its morphogenic effects (40). With regard to estradiol, amphiregulin is an attractive candidate for conveying the paracrine signal. Ablation of this growth factor in the mammary epithelium causes a phenotype similar to that of ERα mutant epithelium, and its transcription is strongly induced by estrogen (L. Ciarloni and C.B., unpublished observations). Interestingly, the receptor for amphiregulin, the epidermal growth factor receptor (EGFR), is required in the fat pad (42), suggesting that the estrogen-induced paracrine-signaling loop involves the stroma. In response to amphiregulin, stromal cells in turn may release fibroblast growth factors (FGFs) that act on the epithelial cells (43).

The observation that proliferating cells in the adult mammary epithelium rarely express steroid receptors was made in mice, rats, and humans (34–36), suggesting that estrogens and progesterone generally operate by paracrine mechanism in the breast. Intriguingly, in ERα-positive human breast carcinomas, which represent 2/3 of all breast cancers, ERα-positive cells proliferate (34). This proliferation may be a reflection of increased paracrine growth stimulation. Alternatively, the rare population of ERα positive proliferating cells (37) expands as an ERα-positive tumor develops or ERα-positive cells acquire the ability to use estrogen as a direct mitogen. ERα-negative tumors, however, may escape the requirement for paracrine growth stimulation by steroid hormones by constitutively activating growth factor signaling pathways. Consistent with this model, epidermal growth factor receptor overexpression is frequently associated with ERα-negative tumors (44). The use of tissue reconstitution techniques and genetically altered cells should help to further dissect the intercellular communication involved in mammary morphogenesis and carcinogenesis.


And as for amphiregulin, in PMID: 15284208...

QUOTE
We examined the cAMP-mediated regulation of the epidermal
growth factor-like growth factor amphiregulin (AR) in T cells
and observed a strong cAMP-induced up-regulation of AR
mRNA in a time- and concentration-dependent manner independent
of T cell activation. This regulation may be mediated
in part through activation of a cAMP-responsive element in
the AR promoter, because the cAMP-responsive element conferred
cAMP responsiveness to a luciferase reporter in Jurkat
TAg cells. Similar effects of AR mRNA induction were seen in
T cells treated with cAMP-elevating agents such as prostaglandin
E2 and forskolin as well as with the phosphodiesterase
inhibitors rolipram and isobutylmethylxanthine. Furthermore,
the induction of AR mRNA by cAMP was strongly
suppressed by a protein kinase A type I-selective inhibitor,
whereas treatment with an exchange protein directly activated
by cAMP-specific agonist did not increase AR levels. In
addition, an increase in AR gene transcripts by cAMP was
seen in MCF-7 mammary carcinoma cells and H295R adrenal
cells. Moreover, the potent cAMP-mediated induction of AR
mRNA resulted in increased secretion (5-fold) of AR from T
cells. Furthermore, supernatants from cAMP-stimulated T
cells containing secreted AR induced phosphorylated MAPK
in OVCAR-3 carcinoma cells. In conclusion, our data suggest
that AR is under strong regulation by the cAMP pathway in
various cell types, and that prostaglandin E2- and cAMP-induced
AR secretion from T cells may be highly relevant in a
microenvironment consisting of tumor cells and infiltrated
immune cells, because AR by activating the MAPK pathway
through a paracrine route may contribute to proliferation of
tumor cells and thus add to neoplastic processes. (Endocrinology
145: 5177–5184, 2004)force's post:



These studies were copied and pasted from mm:
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Now it's not say that these studies apply to everyone in the real world but if we're going to extrapolate that the studies on it's efficacy will equate to greater fat loss it's atleast fair to take these studies into consideration also...

With that said in my personal experience I didn't notice any gyno or neophobia but I also didn't notice much at all from this supplement in the first place. Did it help me in my quest for recomping? yes...but it wasn't really that substantial compared to my results off of it. I'm sure it works nice and dandy for others but it didn't work all that well for me.
that is some good info- and I have taken a lot of these studies into account, plus tons of real world data- and I have heard of a couple rare instances where someone experienced some gyno-like results from forskolin- maybe 2 out of 5000- but they could have been attributable to other factors as well....
 
from my boss-
"I have taken a look at these studies, and weighed the benefits vs. risks- forskolin has been used safely for years in the US market- and the only adverse events that I have really seen from it can be upset stomach, slight itching (see below), and increased sweating (but only in fairly rare cases).....

Forskolin is something that you have to look at concerning allergies, and the final study regarding histamines may have some merit- it does have a fairly strong histamine-enhancing effect in some people- my QA can't take Drive or any product containing forskolin for this reason....

but those studies are interesting- good research!"

I totally missed this as I just learned how to check thread subscriptions, but I must say I'm honored that your first 2 posts were directed at me:welcome:. It's good that you responded. You too rms80.

Forskolin doesn't seem to be that big of an issue as it's usually noted that studies don't always translate in to the real world. Equally so for the studies that promote Forskolins efficacy in the fat loss arena. Before any one gets angry again I will, once again, restate that it seems to be somewhat helpful in people's quest for fat loss but is far from achieving the fat loss potential one could achieve with the myriad of other products on the current market.
 
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