planetfuzz
Active member
Ok,so I've been experimenting with waxy maize for the past few months. I really like drinking some waxy maize with purple wraath and creatine during training. Just wondering how everybody who does use waxy maize uses it.
Favorite way to use waxy maize?
- Thread starter planetfuzz
- Start date
brk_nemesis
yea!!!!!
I hit it with my protein shake post-workout. Almost done wit 1 jug of it, and all I can say is the recovery is significantly different. Every now and then if I am dragging in the mornings for college, I'll through in a small amount into my morning shake, and I usually feel more amped, then w/o it. So I think for the $$$, its a great addition to my supplement closet.
brk_nemesis
yea!!!!!
yeah its good for me b/c i have it right there with me 5 secs after working out. By the time I get home, shower, etc, enough time goes by to where I can then cook up even more carbs and meat.:afro:
planetfuzz
Active member
I'm pretty sure it takes several hours to turn to creatinine. I mix it immediately before the gym.
I had heard that mixing it with protein lowers it's molecular weight making it not as fast acting. I've heard different things though. I don't even know why the speed is all that important though...
brk_nemesis
yea!!!!!
I dont know,.. It's a fast digesting carb, combined with a protein shake(whey) which is also fast digesting, when compared to the likes of meals, or casein protein. If the protein did affect the absorption speed of the Waxy maize, i dont think it would be that far off than without the protein, moreso just a little more workload for the stomach to digest. I can say one thing,.... 30 minutes after taking the shake, I am refreshed, kickin' and ready to go. Before the addition of waxy maize,.... I was a zombie until I got to the Post-w/o meal.
jsp0785
Well-known member
i've also read that somewhere. the speed is important because technically waximaize is a complex carb but it absorbs like a simple because its heavy and flows through the stomach right into the intestines to be absorbed
planetfuzz
Active member
sorry....GMS?
jsp0785
Well-known member
i'm guessing glycerol mono stearate
brk_nemesis
yea!!!!!
ehhh, took waxy maize half way through workout today, instead of mixing with shake post workout to see the different, all I got say is Fukk that, lol. Well one problem was I was doin deadlifts, but my stomach went crazy, couldnt get the infamous chalk taste to go away( cant taste it when mixed wit protein) and didnt feel no where near refreshed and recovered hours after my workout like i did before with it added to my shake. Maybe its just me but,..... I vote with the shake.
planetfuzz
Active member
Hmm...I might have to try that. Deadlifts do it for me too....just shakes my stomach around a little.
ozarkaBRAND
Well-known member
Studies have shown it takes days. No worries.
jsp0785
Well-known member
gotcha. thought it was only like a half hour or hour.
brk_nemesis
yea!!!!!
idk, you can try, but i didnt like it. Im use to going balls to the wall in the gym, using energy from my pre workout shake, and then afterwards, hitting the whey/WM. In 20-30 minutes I then get my energy back ,feel great, and can finish off my day. When I took the waxy maize 20-25 minutes into my workout( before last set of deads), yeah I got some energy back to finish off my workout, but I just felt shitty for the rest of the day til my next meal. So, ima just wait til afterwards.
planetfuzz
Active member
Just finished my WM and protein. So far so good.
justreading
Banned
Study carb metabolism and insulin sensitivity and you'll see... PRE-Wo is best.
The explanation is far to long to write gonna have to try it and see but here is the SHORT version.
1. Carbs before WO are much more important
2. Carbs after WO are not needed - can help but not needed
3. Carbs during workout are pointless - again, its been studied
4. Carbs after WO are benefitial only for blocking cortisol release via insulin, WMS does not induce insulin response
5. Quickly spiking glycogen levels lowers insulin sensitivity and is only needed for athletes who train multiple times a day...
The explanation is far to long to write gonna have to try it and see but here is the SHORT version.
1. Carbs before WO are much more important
2. Carbs after WO are not needed - can help but not needed
3. Carbs during workout are pointless - again, its been studied
4. Carbs after WO are benefitial only for blocking cortisol release via insulin, WMS does not induce insulin response
5. Quickly spiking glycogen levels lowers insulin sensitivity and is only needed for athletes who train multiple times a day...
planetfuzz
Active member
1.) I agree.
2.)Even though I agree that pre-workout carbs are much more important I can not imagine not having carbs post workout.
3.)Why pointless? Wouldn't this depend on your goals? I like having something to sip on during my workout.
4.)I just read an article from Muscle and Fitness that said a university study found that it spikes insulin,but I am not sure if I should believe them since they also said jelly beans are a good post-workout carb...
justreading
Banned
2) Slow carbs are better...
3) unless your goals are athletic goals requiring IMEDIATE performance your glycogen WILL replenish within 24 hours
4) I was not just talking from that article but also mario d'pasqual (spelling) and palumbo articles...
justreading
Banned
Also... WMS with protein detroys one of ita main bentifs in helping other supplements be absorbed quicker.
I like it BEFORE WO with 3g alcar, 2g tyrosine and 5g aakg so they are pulled into your system fast because you maintain the ratio of WMS to other ingredients.
I like it BEFORE WO with 3g alcar, 2g tyrosine and 5g aakg so they are pulled into your system fast because you maintain the ratio of WMS to other ingredients.
brk_nemesis
yea!!!!!
I might be wrong, but considering MWS is a fast carb, would it not be more beneficial to take it after a W/O when the body needs replenishment ( glycogen levels and recovery) rather than before, establishing a person has already digested an ample amount of slow carbs hours before a w/o? If its a fast carb that means it will be digested extremely fast and could replenish w/e you lost during the w/o as well as add to recovery. Using before a w/o would be great for energy in the gym, and has its benefits, but I have a preworkout shake(no shotgun) for that, which has always done the job for me. Assuming since we are all mostly serious bodybuilders on here, our diets should reflect that, and chances are that diet should already have carbs in the body before a w/o, that unless you are using WMS as a filler/substitute, which would make more sense for your arguement. If carbs are already in the system from a persons diet, I dont see any advantages a pre workout carb intake, that a post wouldn't have, if the carbs were already there from a prevouis meal, You see where Im coming from? I think the same argue can be made for protein shakes, and many other supplements. I do see what you mean about combining the protein with the WMS regarding absorption. Ill have to mess around with the "abundance" of daily supplements i have and see what I can do. Ill be running out of my prew/o shake soon, So i think maybe ill try your way.
planetfuzz
Active member
The only way I can use WMS pre-workout is if I take it immediatly before. I handle it during pretty well too. I tried it about 45 mins before once and I felt drained about half way through.
justreading
Banned
brk... where did you get this "knowledge" that post WO carbs should be fast acting?
It really is supplement industry BS and bending studies to fit their needs. You are totally right that most people on a board say fast acting is needed but none of them know why besides "it just is!" or "duh everyone knows that!" which are not reasons...
Get what I am saying, most poeple who "know" things really know nothing.
It really is supplement industry BS and bending studies to fit their needs. You are totally right that most people on a board say fast acting is needed but none of them know why besides "it just is!" or "duh everyone knows that!" which are not reasons...
Get what I am saying, most poeple who "know" things really know nothing.
brk_nemesis
yea!!!!!
I never said they "should" be anything. But i agree with most of what you said. All i meant was is that if your diet has the proper amount of carbs in it already, why not use the the fast carbs for what they actually are: fast carbs. You woundn't use casein protein for a postworkout shake due to its longer digestion rate compared to whey would you? No, you use it before you go to bed, to give something for your body to feed on while you sleep, and your body also wont go catabolic. I wont lie I havent looked up shite for studies on WMS in a while, and got mine from a friend who hated the taste, and ordered another weeks ago after seeing rather interesting results interms of recovery,.....so my information is rather limited on which, before or after a w/o would be best, but that is also the reason I am here, to learn more about it. I was under the impression that post w/o carb intake promoted greater glucose and insulin responses, as well as the "common sense" approach of replenishing glycogen storage,etc, while im also afaid that the preworkout shake will conflict with the WMS, if taken before w/o. Lemme dig round tomorrow for some studies i read bout post w/o carb intake, although you seem very knowledgable (more than me) and prolly already know most of it. I gotta hit the sac for college class early in the morning.
Btw, forgot to add,....Ive heard conflicting information on rather WMS causes an Insulin response.. If so,.. that would better explain a post w/o intake comparable to a high glycemic carb taken post w/o which also causes a spike, which is good. Ill have to look around on this.
raginfcktard
Active member
all i can tell you is 60-80g with 2 scoops no-shotgun...wear a sleeveless shirt cause it'll rip. i like it preworkout...maybe some post but oatmeal is better for me there!
planetfuzz
Active member
Hmm...maybe I'll mix it with some ragnarok for on the way to the gym.
justreading
Banned
My gripe with WMS post-wo is that it doesn't even seem to cause the insulin response you want post-wo.
In my opinion the insulin spike is the only reason for high glycemis carbs post WO.
In my opinion the insulin spike is the only reason for high glycemis carbs post WO.
brk_nemesis
yea!!!!!
really? in that case i might have to try it out,...... I still got a whole nother tub of it,lol.
brk_nemesis
yea!!!!!
YES! i agree with you,... like i said thou there seems to be a confliction on whether WMS does cause a spike or not, study-wise, few places i did look very briefly had polar oppsosite conclusions. I didnt get a chance to look up anything deep today as mid terms killed me, and im going out tonight but I got all weekend. Ive also read a few places that Post-w/o is the majority choice for WMS usage, yet I see the opposite on here: as many you guys swear by it.(pre w/o dosage). I'll look around, but deff. next week ill try mixing it with my Noshotgun.
justreading
Banned
Man you can totally do without it... you can do without everything talked about on here. Just have protein powder and some good carbs after you workout and you are set.
planetfuzz
Active member
I agree but I think the issue was if waxy maize even spiked insulin. I do think spiking insulin is a bad idea. I mean if it just helps a little then that's fine. If I work out 3-4 times a week I'm pretty much spiking my insulin 3-4 times a week. I doubt that will lead to insulin resistance. It certainly is not needed though. I say it's way overrated. Whatever floats your boat.
sethroberts
Active member
Open toilet lid, dump bottle - the best way to use waxy maize. By the way, my toilet is getting huge.
planetfuzz
Active member
Nonsense. I like waxy maize.
corsaking
Well-known member
How long is too long? can you qualify your statement?
justreading
Banned
10 minutes or less possibly... creatine is horrible in water. mix as close to drinking as possible because it also needs to sit in the water rich environment of your body once ingested and the additional time mixed in water before drinking it is just asking for it to degrade.
brk_nemesis
yea!!!!!
I don't think they are "overemphasized" at all. If you happen to run into someone who swears by them they are only one person, doesn't mean everyone agrees on it, no different then a supplement an individual is opinionated about. I know plenty of ppl from my training experience over the years who saw great gains without ingesting high gly post workout, basically meat only like you stated. I was also one of these people, but decided to change up my diet and try new things, hence, the waxy maize.
corsaking
Well-known member
I drink SIZE ON by Gaspari during training which it suggests you can do .The creatine is creatine gluconate .Training can last anything from 45 -60 mins Are you saying then that during this time the creatine is not effective or does it only apply to monohydrate?
From experience i would say that ive no reason to doubt its not working.
sethroberts
Active member
I like chocolate, so what is your point? Show me some scientific evidence that WMS does anything beneficial for muscle hypertrophy or endurance.
sethroberts
Active member
Actually, I'll save you the trouble. Here is a study where they compared glucose, maltodextrin, waxy maize starch (AKA amylopectin), and amylose (a metabolically resistant starch). the only difference that they found was with the resistant starch. Waxy starch performed the same as glucose with regard to work output, lactate formation and glycogen formation.
Int J Sports Med. 1996 Jul;17(5):373-8.Related Articles, Links
The influence of starch structure on glycogen resynthesis and subsequent cycling performance.
Jozsi AC, Trappe TA, Starling RD, Goodpaster B, Trappe SW, Fink WJ, Costill DL.
Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Muncie, Indiana 47306, USA.
The present study was designed to evaluate the influence of starch structure on muscle glycogen resynthesis and cycling performance. Eight male cyclists (22 +/- 1 yr) completed an exercise protocol (DP) to decrease vastus lateralis glycogen concentration. This exercise consisted of 60 min cycling at 75% VO2max, followed by six 1-min sprints at approximately 125% VO2max with 1 min rest intervals. In the 12 hr after the exercise each subject consumed approximately 3000 kcal (65:20:15% carbohydrate, fat and protein). All of the carbohydrate (CHO) consumed was derived from one of four solutions; 1) glucose, 2) maltodextrin (glucose polymer), 3) waxy starch (100% amylopectin), or 4) resistant starch (100% amylose). Muscle biopsies were taken from the vastus lateralis muscle after DP and 24 hr later to determine glycogen concentrations. A 30 min cycling time trial (TT) was performed following the 24 hr post-DP muscle biopsy to examine the influence of the feeding regimen on total work output. The post-DP glycogen concentrations were similar among the four trials, ranging from 220.3 +/- 29.2 to 264 +/- 48.3 mmol.kg-1 dry weight (d.w.) muscle. Twenty-four hours after DP, muscle glycogen concentration had increased less (p < 0.05) in the resistant starch trial (+90.8 +/- 12.8 mmol.kg-1 d.w.) than in the glucose (+197.7 +/- 31.6 mmol.kg-1 d.w.), maltodextrin (+136.7 +/- 24.5 mmol.kg-1 d.w.) and waxy starch (+171.8 +/- 37.1 mmol.kg-1 d.w.) trials. There were no differences in total work output during the TT, or blood lactate concentration immediately following the TT in any of the CHO trials. In summary, glycogen resynthesis was attenuated following ingestion of starch with a high amylose content, relative to amylopectin or glucose; however, short duration time trial performance was unaffected.
Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't
PMID: 8858410 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Int J Sports Med. 1996 Jul;17(5):373-8.Related Articles, Links
The influence of starch structure on glycogen resynthesis and subsequent cycling performance.
Jozsi AC, Trappe TA, Starling RD, Goodpaster B, Trappe SW, Fink WJ, Costill DL.
Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Muncie, Indiana 47306, USA.
The present study was designed to evaluate the influence of starch structure on muscle glycogen resynthesis and cycling performance. Eight male cyclists (22 +/- 1 yr) completed an exercise protocol (DP) to decrease vastus lateralis glycogen concentration. This exercise consisted of 60 min cycling at 75% VO2max, followed by six 1-min sprints at approximately 125% VO2max with 1 min rest intervals. In the 12 hr after the exercise each subject consumed approximately 3000 kcal (65:20:15% carbohydrate, fat and protein). All of the carbohydrate (CHO) consumed was derived from one of four solutions; 1) glucose, 2) maltodextrin (glucose polymer), 3) waxy starch (100% amylopectin), or 4) resistant starch (100% amylose). Muscle biopsies were taken from the vastus lateralis muscle after DP and 24 hr later to determine glycogen concentrations. A 30 min cycling time trial (TT) was performed following the 24 hr post-DP muscle biopsy to examine the influence of the feeding regimen on total work output. The post-DP glycogen concentrations were similar among the four trials, ranging from 220.3 +/- 29.2 to 264 +/- 48.3 mmol.kg-1 dry weight (d.w.) muscle. Twenty-four hours after DP, muscle glycogen concentration had increased less (p < 0.05) in the resistant starch trial (+90.8 +/- 12.8 mmol.kg-1 d.w.) than in the glucose (+197.7 +/- 31.6 mmol.kg-1 d.w.), maltodextrin (+136.7 +/- 24.5 mmol.kg-1 d.w.) and waxy starch (+171.8 +/- 37.1 mmol.kg-1 d.w.) trials. There were no differences in total work output during the TT, or blood lactate concentration immediately following the TT in any of the CHO trials. In summary, glycogen resynthesis was attenuated following ingestion of starch with a high amylose content, relative to amylopectin or glucose; however, short duration time trial performance was unaffected.
Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't
PMID: 8858410 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
planetfuzz
Active member
I'm not saying it's some super carb that does things nothing else can do. It just settles in my stomach better than other carbs. I can drink it before and during training and I am hungry for a meal after. I have considering maybe trying something like a dextrose/sucrose mix during training to see how it compares with the waxy.
ozarkaBRAND
Well-known member
Nah, there are studies and articles showing that it takes days.
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