Sldge
Super Lab Rat
LMAO, you're the only delusional one here.:fool2:
The #1 Cortisol Blocker
- Thread starter Eric Potratz
- Start date
Sldge
Super Lab Rat
Im not in here because I think PS powder is hurting my sales, it isnt. Im here because you are lying, just like you were at mind and muscle when you posted this same crap. Ive considered PS in the past and may consider it in the future but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Ive never said PS wasnt good, Ive actually posted the opposite. However your comments about the nonanabolic- nonandrogenic metabolites of DHEA being suppressive is false and the above studies show that whether you want to believe it or not.
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
Yep, the same “crap” was posted on M&M and we came to the same conclusion – DHEA’s metabolites lower testosterone production.
Here it is for anyone who wants to see -
Invalid Link Removed
-Pp
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
They may not be direct anti-androgens, but they can have anti-androgenic effects. Here is one study that shows 7-oxo DHEA raising epitestosterone. (there are more studies on this)
Delayed effects of short-term transdermal application of 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone on its metabolites, some hormonal steroids and relevant proteohormones in healthy male volunteers.
J Sulcova, R Hampl, M Hill, L Starka, and A Novacek
Clin Chem Lab Med, January 1, 2005; 43(2): 221-7.
Epitestosterone is generally considered an "anti-androgen" because it doesn’t poses significant androgenic/anabolic activity.
-Pp
Sldge
Super Lab Rat
Actually you were the only one who came to that conclusion.
And there is another study that was mentioned in an article by David Tolson saying that there was no change in testosterone or estradiol levels and only T3 was increased (J Ex Physiology online. 1999 2(4). Double-Blind Study Evaluating the Effects of Exercise Plus 3-Acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone on Body Composition and Endocrine System in Overweight Adults. Colker CM, Torina GC, Swain MA, Kalman DS.)
Sldge
Super Lab Rat
LMAO. You are still quoting the same transdermal study. Transdermal application of 7OXO is not relevant to oral use.
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
Really?
I remember you saying you “Invalid Link Removed”. Is this because you know it suppresses the HPTA?
It’s funny you’re mentioning 7-oxo studies now. Earlier you refused to acknowledge the relationship between 7OH, 5AT and 7-oxo. I guess whatever’s convenient for you eh?
-Pp
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
The transdermal studies are relevant because they give a very clear picture of what happens when these DHEA metabolites get into the system (an amplified result of what happens when administered orally).
Read the full text of any oral 7-oxo study. You will see the same general trend of reduced sex hormones, including a reduction in total Testosterone. It may not be significant enough to put in an abstract, but it’s a reduction of Testosterone none the less. This is enough to make me not want to use it for PCT, when minimizing suppression of the HPTA is critical.
Phosphatidylserine has a clear benefit of being able to suppress cortisol release, while simultaneously increasing testosterone production. (This is at least a step in the right direction)
If you have more studies or in-house blood tests for DHEA metabolites, feel free to post them up. As far as I can tell all the research has been laid on the table. At this point, it’s ultimately the consumer’s decision.
-Pp
Safety and pharmacokinetic study with escalating doses of 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone in healthy male volunteers.
M Davidson, A Marwah, RJ Sawchuk, K Maki, P Marwah, C Weeks, and H Lardy
Clin Invest Med, October 1, 2000; 23(5): 300-10.
Grant
Registered User
Whoa, whoa, whoa, so PS is a test booster now?
Studies please.
And if you are using "HORMONAL EFFECTS OF PHOSPHATIDYLSERINE DURING 2-WKS OF INTENSE WEIGHT TRAINING" please provide the full text, I can't even access the abstract.
Thanks
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
Yes, but PS’s ability to increase testosterone is secondary in action. For instance, if you’re under any kind of physical or mental stress, PS will mitigate the drop in testosterone associated with the rise in cortisol… or perhaps increase testosterone if you’re suppressed from chronically high cortisol levels.
-Pp
Here is the abstract -
HORMONAL EFFECTS OF PHOSPHATIDYLSERINE DURING 2-WKS OF INTENSE WEIGHT TRAINING
[Annual Meeting Abstracts]
Fahey, T. D.; Pearl, M.
California State University, Chico
A double-blind, crossover design study, measured the effects of 800 mg/d soybean derived phosphatidylserine (PS) or placebo (C) during 2-wk intense weight training on cortisol (CT), adrenocorticotropin hormone (ACTH), testosterone (TS), luteinizing hormone (LH), well-being (WB), and muscle soreness (MS) in 11 trained males. Subjects did 5 sets of 10 repetitions of 13 exercises, 4 times/wk for 2, 2-wk periods (3-wk recovery). Venous blood was sampled 6 mornings (T1-T6) and 15-min following the 8th work-out (T7). WB and MS were estimated using 10-point scales. CT was the same in PS and C in T1-T6 but decreased between T6 and T7 in PS (15.6 ± 1.7 to 10.0±0.9μg/dL, mean±SEM, P<0.05) but not in C. ACTH did not change in PS in T1-T7 but increased in C between T4 and T5-7 by over 50%. TS increased in PS between T1 (3.3±0.3 ng/mL) and T3 (4.4±0.5 ng/mL) and fell in both treatments between T3 and T7 (3.3±0.3 ng/mL, PS; 3.3±0.4, C). LH increased significantly between T1 (1.5±0.1 mlU/mL) and T6(2.2±0.3 mlU/mL) in PS but did not change in C. WB was greater in P than C in T2-T6. In C, WB at T3 was markedly depressed (4.9±0.8). MS increased in both treatments and was greater in C than PS at T2 (61%) and T5(55%). Cortisol decreased in PS after exercise, possibly by depressing ACTH. PS attenuated the negative effects of intense weight training on perception of well-being and muscle soreness
Sldge
Super Lab Rat
What I said was LX was not created as a PCT product although it can be used since it increases total testosterone, free testosterone, lowers estrogen, lowers cortisol, increases lean mass, decreases fat mass and helps to prevent futrure gains of fat. It doesnt suppress HPTA and you dont have a single study to show that it does. I dont sell hormones or products that suppress HPTA so I dont see the need in coming out with a product specifically to remedy that situation. However LX will work very well during PCT.
You were the one who said the compounds were the same. I have repeatedly said that they are different. Since you dont understand the difference I can still prove that you are wrong just by using all of the 7OXO studies.
Transdermal use isnt relevant because it prevents 7oxo from going through the liver. Its a HUGE difference but since you dont understand how these compounds work its easy to see why you are so confused.
gibbob2
Member
wow, am I the only one looking at this thinking it'a a bit immature? I think this sets in stone the fact that I will never buy a designer supplement product. I don;t even know what the hell you guys are talkign about, but even I can tell that you are going back and forth. Perhaps you BOTH have good supplements?
E L E
E L E
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
joebo
Well-known member
Designer Supplements has been around for a long time now and has produced many great products. He is trying to debunk information which is being presented by PP for the good of the board. I would side with Designer any day of the week over a new company like PP. And no one is debating if the products are good or not, but rather the information the PP is selling products by and saying it is so much better than LX when there is no science to back it up.
Sldge
Super Lab Rat
Exactly.
vpower
Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by joebo
If you could choose just one fat loss product that you have used in the past, what would it be? I'm looking to drop about 7 lbs and looking for a little help in doing so.
Quote:
Originally Posted By Designer Supps
If youre going to be serious about your diet Ill send you a bottle of Adrenalean for free. Try it out and let me know how it worked towards the 7lbs of fatloss. PM me your addy if you are interested.
Heres where I found this...
Invalid Link Removed
Yeah I would back a company too if they were given me free product. Primordial may be a new company but I have received nothing but good info and results from them...these bros know their stuff
Originally Posted by joebo
If you could choose just one fat loss product that you have used in the past, what would it be? I'm looking to drop about 7 lbs and looking for a little help in doing so.
Quote:
Originally Posted By Designer Supps
If youre going to be serious about your diet Ill send you a bottle of Adrenalean for free. Try it out and let me know how it worked towards the 7lbs of fatloss. PM me your addy if you are interested.
Heres where I found this...
Invalid Link Removed
Yeah I would back a company too if they were given me free product. Primordial may be a new company but I have received nothing but good info and results from them...these bros know their stuff
Sldge
Super Lab Rat
There is also this:
Invalid Link Removed
And a special on Nutraplanet for Adrenalean and a free t-shirt.
Squires
New member
There is nothing wrong with free products. What makes all this interesting is after gibbob2 shows support for PP, joebo comes in to support DS. All perfectly fine. However, when it is shown that joebo has a biased opinion, he responds with
"I've received free product from a lot of companies and in return have provided negative feedback on these companies."
Which is obviously untrue, shown by his comment 35 minutes earlier.
But all this is in good fun, so who really cares?
"I've received free product from a lot of companies and in return have provided negative feedback on these companies."
Which is obviously untrue, shown by his comment 35 minutes earlier.
But all this is in good fun, so who really cares?
grila jujitsu
Well-known member
neither are arguing which has better supps they have respect for each other in that aspect. they are just debating the science of compounds. just read and learn something instead of trying to turn this debate in to an argument.
Thanks
GJJ
MaxGolf
Primordial Performance Rep
Good Call. Lots of good info....a must read
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
I never said PS was so much better than LX. To be fair, LX has a combination of ingredients which make it a totally different kind of product – it really is like comparing apples and oranges.
I posted research that shows DHEA metabolites suppress testosterone production (7oxo which is related to 7OH and 5AT). Any educated member can refute these claims, but science is science and this is what the research shows, whether Designer Supps likes it or not.
Designer Supps keeps crying BS, but posts no relevant research to support his stance. At this point I think we are beating a dead horse.
-Pp
joebo
Well-known member
I obviously don't post negative if the product works, but I was trying to get across that I have recieved product for free to test which didn't live up to what it should have and in return I've posted my honest feedback which was negative for the product. It has nothing to do with DS or PP. I honestly could care less about either company, but moreso about the products they create. I have no loyalty to any company. if you make a good product I will purchase it. I do however believe DS to have a very deep background in the sciences and not knowing much about PP, I would tend to trust DS before PP. Who is ultimately right, I don't know.
On a side note, if you believe I have a biased opinion towards any company because they will provide a free bottle of product to log, then you might as well disregard most members on this board as most have participated in sponsored logs, so in turn we have a board of biased members.
John Smeton
Legend
very well said joebo. I'm with you Im not on any companies side. I do understand Ps is a great compound. I also understand Lean extreme is as well. Both lower cortisol and lean xtreme has some other compounds that increase fat burning and testosterone, like . From my understanding the studies show a eight percent decrease in test levels from TRANSDermal, not oral. Eight percent is basically nothing and the eight percent could be from anything. ie the guys may have not gotten enough sleep, or been exposed to lawn moving chemicals, etc many other factors. regardless eight percent did not come from the oral use and only the tub on use , is my understanding correct?
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
Grant
Registered User
Your loss, DS is only defending his products, it was Primordial who bashed Lean Xtreme in the first place.
Designer Supplements has brought more innovation and knowledge to the supplement industry than many more of the bigger companies. Who was the first to use 7oh? TTA? Superdrol? I could go on and on but you get the point.
strategicmove
Legend
I believe one should judge the effectiveness of products based on whether or not the matrix of compounds deliver the results the manufacturers claimed they would. From this perspective, the length of time a company has been around is secondary, not irrelevant; just secondary. Every (successful) company was once a start-up. Designer Supplements and Primordial Performance, to mention just the two involved in this thread, have excellent products in their line-up. I have stacked Activate Xtreme and Lean Xtreme several times and liked the results a lot. I have also used Endo-AMP, Toco-8, and Sustain Alpha, and was very pleased with the results. And will use them again in after Dermacrine. Furthermore, Lean Xtreme and Endo-AMP, even though their benefits intersect in some areas, are still completely different products and were meant to serve different purposes.
So, while this thread may be entertaining to some, the arguments lose intellectual power and the exchanges get more circular as the thread extends. No one really emerges as a winner in such hostile forum exchanges. On the contrary! So, let things be and just move on! :thumbsup: Or ignore my post!
So, while this thread may be entertaining to some, the arguments lose intellectual power and the exchanges get more circular as the thread extends. No one really emerges as a winner in such hostile forum exchanges. On the contrary! So, let things be and just move on! :thumbsup: Or ignore my post!
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
I believe one should judge the effectiveness of products based on whether or not the matrix of compounds deliver the results the manufacturers claimed they would. From this perspective, the length of time a company has been around is secondary, not irrelevant; just secondary. Every (successful) company was once a start-up. Designer Supplements and Primordial Performance, to mention just the two involved in this thread, have excellent products in their line-up. I have stacked Activate Xtreme and Lean Xtreme several times and liked the results a lot. I have also used Endo-AMP, Toco-8, and Sustain Alpha, and was very pleased with the results. And will use them again in after Dermacrine. Furthermore, Lean Xtreme and Endo-AMP, even though their benefits intersect in some areas, are still completely different products and were meant to serve different purposes.
So, while this thread may be entertaining to some, the arguments lose intellectual power and the exchanges get more circular as the thread extends. No one really emerges as a winner in such hostile forum exchanges. On the contrary! So, let things be and just move on! :thumbsup: Or ignore my post!
I agree... but the debates about the science is what it is all about. I enjoy the heated discussions about product. Get Diesel comes to mind.
Adams
Sldge
Super Lab Rat
You did when a persona asked if they should stop using LX to use PS instead. You did when you post lies about compounds you know nothing about.
You posted research that shows TRANSDERMAL 7OXO can effect testosterone production. Transdermal delivery is not the same as oral. The studies you posted were refuted when I posted multiple studies showing that they cannot bind the AR, are not anabolic nor androgenic and do not convert into anything anabolic, androgenic.
5AT and 7OH are not 7OXO, regardless if they are related or not. Estrogen is related to Testosterone and neither act the same. Both are related to Cholesterol and none act the same.
I have posted tons of relevant research, of which you have no response.
Sldge
Super Lab Rat
Absolutely correct.
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
You posted studies about DHEA metabolites having no AR affinity. A lack of androgenic or anabolic activity means nothing. Case in point - Cortisol has no AR binding, no androgenic activity, and no anabolic activity but it still suppresses HPTA function – Just like 7OH and 5AT do. (the mechanism of which is largely unknown)
I posted studies that show 7OH reduces testosterone production (by conversion from 7-oxo) whether the metabolite is delivered topically or orally (15% and 8% respectively).
-Pp
1. Safety and pharmacokinetic study with escalating doses of 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone in healthy male volunteers.
M Davidson, A Marwah, RJ Sawchuk, K Maki, P Marwah, C Weeks, and H Lardy
Clin Invest Med, October 1, 2000; 23(5): 300-10.
2. Effects of Transdermal Application of 7-oxo-DHEA on the Levels of Steroid Hormones, Gonadotropins and Lipids in Healthy Men.
J Sulcova, et al.
Institute of Endocrinology 50: 9-18, 2001
3. Delayed effects of short-term transdermal application of 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone on its metabolites, some hormonal steroids and relevant proteohormones in healthy male volunteers
Jarmila Sulcova, et al.
Institute of Endoacrinology 43 (2):221-227 2005
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
Absolutely wrong and you’re absolutely full of it.
AGAIN, here is the study that showed oral administration of non-androgenic and non-anabolic DHEA’s metabolites lowering testosterone production.
1. Safety and pharmacokinetic study with escalating doses of 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone in healthy male volunteers.
M Davidson, A Marwah, RJ Sawchuk, K Maki, P Marwah, C Weeks, and H Lardy
Clin Invest Med, October 1, 2000; 23(5): 300-10.
Let me ask you, how much 7Oh or 5At is in your proprietary blend? Perhaps if you where open about the amount of testosterone suppressing ingredients in your product, customers could tailor their dose accordingly – and reap benefits without the side effects.
-Pp
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
pmiller383
Well-known member
There are studies proving and disproving each companies arguments, these studies can be interpreted how ever you choose. What it boils down to is that both companies create quality products that live up to there claims. The products however work through different mechanisms and are truly different so this thread is going to go nowhere. Thank you both for the information in this thread and both of you for creating quality products but I suggest you agree to disagree on the topic because an internet fight never goes anywhere but in circles.
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jjohn
Registered User
True dat. I'll just stack both.
comacho
Member
i would love to see bloodwors by users here after trying either DHEA metabolite based products or PS product
because i can ALWAYS find studies on pubmed that says one thing where the other half says otherwise.
interesting that topical route doesnt go through the liver, i thought all things can filtered...i just dont buy that, those studies are purely dose and time dependent.
maybe more things get absorbed first by the topical route having greater results/sides where the oral route gets poor bioavailibity due to IG tract and probably liver at some point. Less result and less sides that way. Plus, dont people usually mega dose (orally) those 7OH, 7oxo etc products? that should spill over.
one day im sure someone will do some blood work i hope
because i can ALWAYS find studies on pubmed that says one thing where the other half says otherwise.
interesting that topical route doesnt go through the liver, i thought all things can filtered...i just dont buy that, those studies are purely dose and time dependent.
maybe more things get absorbed first by the topical route having greater results/sides where the oral route gets poor bioavailibity due to IG tract and probably liver at some point. Less result and less sides that way. Plus, dont people usually mega dose (orally) those 7OH, 7oxo etc products? that should spill over.
one day im sure someone will do some blood work i hope
sethroberts
Active member
I hate when people use words and they don't know what they mean. Diurnal: Relating to or occurring in a 24-hour period; daily. Therefore, when you talk about reducing cortisol diurnally, you are talking about reducing it though a 24 hour period, not just the daytime
sethroberts
Active member
The reason is that measuring cortisol levels is very difficult. the act of measuring itself often increases stress levels and cortisol release so it is not very reliable which is why, if the doctor thinks you may have a problem, does an ACTH stimulation test or some other kind of tests to see how your adrenals are doing instead of just measuring cortisol.
Royd The Noyd
Board Sponsor
sethroberts
Active member
Agreed. Total test means nothing.
Royd The Noyd
Board Sponsor
Fudge he beat me to it....
Royd The Noyd
Board Sponsor
Nothing at all....I suppose if you dont mind diabetes?
sethroberts
Active member
Free test is active, bound test is not -- that pretty much sums it up. Take any masters level endocrinology course or read the willkiams text and you will understand.
Royd The Noyd
Board Sponsor
OT: Are you the "set point" Seth Roberts???? Or just a fan?
sethroberts
Active member
No, I have used this name as a pseudonym for the past 10 years or so.
Also, a pet peeve of mine, HPTA is hypothalamic pituitary Thyroid axis, HPGA is hypothalamic gonadal axis and HPA is hypothalamic adrenal axis.
Royd The Noyd
Board Sponsor
Yes, this is very well understood even by those with undergrad level endo knowledge. But its sounds as if your saying males with low total test are perfectly healthy with normal free test ranges? I'm putting words in your mouth but its seems like that is where you are taking this...
We are way OT, btw...
sethroberts
Active member
Since the range for total test is so braod, it is almost pointless to even look at it. It is very unlikely that you would have total test below the cutoff for the normal range and still have free test be normal unless you were doing something to manipulate SHBG levels.
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
A pet peeve of mine is guy who thinks he has some great unconventional wisdom, when he really doesn’t.
HPTA – Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis
Invalid Link Removed
Duirnal can be referred to as a Diurnal event that occurs once every 24hrs
Or
Something that happens during the day. (ie daytime cortisol levels, as opposed to nocturnal levels)
Invalid Link Removed
-Pp
HPTA – Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis
Invalid Link Removed
Duirnal can be referred to as a Diurnal event that occurs once every 24hrs
Or
Something that happens during the day. (ie daytime cortisol levels, as opposed to nocturnal levels)
Invalid Link Removed
-Pp
neoborn
Well-known member
So so far we've seen:
1. Squabling like children with no real resolution (unlikely either)
2. Alias usernames coming in and backing up each camp
3. No real resolution
So how about we close this POS thread down and leave it at that. Way to go guys. The whole E-penis thing gets a little old. There are good and bad to both product lines.
Suck it up and move on ladies. I definitely think a one question - one answer format would be wise. If you can't answer then GTFO!
P.S grant remove your nose from DS k?
1. Squabling like children with no real resolution (unlikely either)
2. Alias usernames coming in and backing up each camp
3. No real resolution
So how about we close this POS thread down and leave it at that. Way to go guys. The whole E-penis thing gets a little old. There are good and bad to both product lines.
Suck it up and move on ladies. I definitely think a one question - one answer format would be wise. If you can't answer then GTFO!
P.S grant remove your nose from DS k?