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does god exist

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bryan4980 said:
So a person has basicly one chance to pick the correct religion? How do we know which is right which is wrong? They all claim to be right, so pick the wrong one and you're screwed.
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No I don't think there is one chance for someone to pick a religion.

I used to be agnostic, then I held a belief that probably isn't much different than yours. I believed that if there was a God then I would likely be good enough for Him not to smite me :woohoo:

Those are the two beliefs that I held before becoming a Christian. And the only reason why I remain a Christian is because of what I have experienced as a Christian. Not that I experienced a charmed life or anything, that isn't the case at all, but I experienced things that have done nothing but fortified my faith.

I looked and I found, I believe that no matter where I started from I would have found Jesus because I earnestly searched.
 
Dadof2 said:
Is it unfair that if you don't believe in the law of gravity that you are still going to fall?
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Not a good point. I can drop a cat off a roof and see what happens. I cant see if that cat goes to heaven.

And that brings up a new question for me... Does that cat have to believe in god as well? Or does all of religion just refer to the human species? And how is that differentiated? Does anything cover that?
 
Dadof2 said:
Your scenario doesn't really make sense.

Your example of a man living life without even thinking of God until his deathbed is a bad one. First we have to assume that this guy lives in a culture where he has been exposed to the idea of the Christian God, since he accepts Jesus on his deathbed right?

So that means that the murderer has lived life constantly rejecting God, over and over and over again. His heart would obviously be hard towards God, as he has gone his whole life consistently wanting nothing to do with God.Why would he accept God on his deathbed? Fear of death is the only logical choice here, and "accepting" Jesus because of fear of death wouldn't be a true conversion in this scenario.

The only true conversion is one that is brought about by a repentant heart that understands how lost it is. Salvation is not obtained by all of a sudden believing that there is a god.


This also taps into the issue of whether or not some native on some island who has never heard of Jesus will go to hell or heaven. If the guy was never exposed to the gospel then he cannot be judged the same way as someone who has. His sins were paid for at the cross just like mine, he just doesn't know it.
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well maybe not not ever thinking about god, but never giving in to his belief. and if he lived a life of murder but in all sincerity saw the error of his ways and gave his sould to god, it still doeant make sense that he go to heaven.
 
bryan4980 said:
I don't equate it to a cliff but a set of doors as there are many religions how do we know which is right? Man is capable of lying the bible was written by man, the game of telephone comes to mind.
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True, but if God wanted it to be written by man it was done so under divine revelation. The Bible has been subject to more textual criticism than any other work and it has time and time proven itself as being the same today as the oldest available manuscripts.

Even still the main message of the Bible is totally clear and repeated over and over throughout the Old Testament through the Gospels and into the Epistles (early letters to the early Church from Apostles):

Man is fallen, God promised man a redeemer, Jesus claimed to be said redeemer, he died and resurrected and as such all men can now be redeemed. That message is totally clear.
 
another thing, if the belief in god allows a person to have a beautiful afterlife, why did god put us on earth? if he is as perfect as he and people claim he is, why put us thru the pains of life. kinda seem like he uses that to amuse himself or at least prolong the suffering of believers by making them wait on earth.
 
bigironkiller said:
well maybe not not ever thinking about god, but never giving in to his belief. and if he lived a life of murder but in all sincerity saw the error of his ways and gave his sould to god, it still doeant make sense that he go to heaven.
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If someone truly sees the error of their ways and is sorry for that are they not worthy to be forgiven?

Do you have children? If one of them does something wrong do you not still love that child? If that child is repentant would you not forgive him?

If a man commits a murder he has ultimately offended God who is the Creator and Father of them both. Now since Jesus paid for every sin on the cross, the sin of murder that man 1 committed has already been forgiven 2000 years ago. Now if the man wants this forgiveness it is his, and who is to say that it is wrong for him to have it as he has ultimately sinned against God?

That is why you hear the term the Grace of God. We do not earn any of it, it is freely given to those who want it. The catch is you don't want it unless you know you need it, and you will only know that you need it if you have a repentant spirit.
 
Dadof2 said:
No I don't think there is one chance for someone to pick a religion.

I used to be agnostic, then I held a belief that probably isn't much different than yours. I believed that if there was a God then I would likely be good enough for Him not to smite me :woohoo:

Those are the two beliefs that I held before becoming a Christian. And the only reason why I remain a Christian is because of what I have experienced as a Christian. Not that I experienced a charmed life or anything, that isn't the case at all, but I experienced things that have done nothing but fortified my faith.

I looked and I found, I believe that no matter where I started from I would have found Jesus because I earnestly searched.
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One chance as you have to pick one before you die.

I used the Catholic, then I left because of a series of bad experiences. After that I spent a while finding out what I believe, then once I figured that out a religion with the same ideals presented itself.
 
Dadof2 said:
If someone truly sees the error of their ways and is sorry for that are they not worthy to be forgiven?

Do you have children? If one of them does something wrong do you not still love that child? If that child is repentant would you not forgive him?

If a man commits a murder he has ultimately offended God who is the Creator and Father of them both. Now since Jesus paid for every sin on the cross, the sin of murder that man 1 committed has already been forgiven 2000 years ago. Now if the man wants this forgiveness it is his, and who is to say that it is wrong for him to have it as he has ultimately sinned against God?

That is why you hear the term the Grace of God. We do not earn any of it, it is freely given to those who want it. The catch is you don't want it unless you know you need it, and you will only know that you need it if you have a repentant spirit.
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where is gods grace to the unbeliervers who could be seen as hopelessly ignorant in terms of faith. dont they deserve gods grace?? as does the murderer.
 
bigironkiller said:
another thing, if the belief in god allows a person to have a beautiful afterlife, why did god put us on earth? if he is as perfect as he and people claim he is, why put us thru the pains of life. kinda seem like he uses that to amuse himself or at least prolong the suffering of believers by making them wait on earth.
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Ok this is the last one, because I really have to go workout :hammer:

The thing is that this touches on a lot of theology and free will and so forth, so I may come back to this.

This goes back to the beginning, Adam and Eve and all that. Man was created to be in fellowship with God, and live in what was essentially heaven on earth.

Man broke the fellowship with God when man brought sin into the world. That brings us to where we are now, naturally out of fellowship with God, and destined to die physically and spiritually.

This is where Jesus comes in, the act of God restoring man to fellowship with Him. This also brings us to the point where Jesus will eventually come back and destroy sin itself so that once again we will have heaven on earth.

Until such time we live on earth either willingly in fellowship with God, or willingly not in fellowship with Him (this arrangement carries over through death).

At least this is the Christian perspective, if a not very thorough one.
 
bigironkiller said:
where is gods grace to the unbeliervers who could be seen as hopelessly ignorant in terms of faith. dont they deserve gods grace?? as does the murderer.
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Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. If someone is confronted with the Gospel ignorance is no longer in the picture. Either the person accepts it by faith or goes on to accept it, or they do not. Either way they are no longer ignorant.
 
bigironkiller said:
another thing, if the belief in god allows a person to have a beautiful afterlife, why did god put us on earth? if he is as perfect as he and people claim he is, why put us thru the pains of life. kinda seem like he uses that to amuse himself or at least prolong the suffering of believers by making them wait on earth.
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Originally, life was perfect here. He created humans, and put them on earth (angels are in heaven, humans are different, and we reside someplace different). Then, the first 2, Adam and Eve, were deceived by satan, they screwed up, and it damned the rest of creation.
 
Dadof2 said:
Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. If someone is confronted with the Gospel ignorance is no longer in the picture. Either the person accepts it by faith or goes on to accept it, or they do not. Either way they are no longer ignorant.
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See, the language used here confuses me again. Knowledge is to know something. Faith is to believe something without actually knowing. At least that is how I understand it.
 
Dadof2 said:
Ok this is the last one, because I really have to go workout :hammer:

The thing is that this touches on a lot of theology and free will and so forth, so I may come back to this.

This goes back to the beginning, Adam and Eve and all that. Man was created to be in fellowship with God, and live in what was essentially heaven on earth.

Man broke the fellowship with God when man brought sin into the world. That brings us to where we are now, naturally out of fellowship with God, and destined to die physically and spiritually.

This is where Jesus comes in, the act of God restoring man to fellowship with Him. This also brings us to the point where Jesus will eventually come back and destroy sin itself so that once again we will have heaven on earth.

Until such time we live on earth either willingly in fellowship with God, or willingly not in fellowship with Him (this arrangement carries over through death).

At least this is the Christian perspective, if a not very thorough one.
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so man brought sin into the world, with the tools god gave him and now we are punished for adam and eves mistakes until jesus returns to wipe out all sin. very vindictive sounding
 
Dadof2 said:
True, but if God wanted it to be written by man it was done so under divine revelation. The Bible has been subject to more textual criticism than any other work and it has time and time proven itself as being the same today as the oldest available manuscripts.

Even still the main message of the Bible is totally clear and repeated over and over throughout the Old Testament through the Gospels and into the Epistles (early letters to the early Church from Apostles):

Man is fallen, God promised man a redeemer, Jesus claimed to be said redeemer, he died and resurrected and as such all men can now be redeemed. That message is totally clear.
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The phrases
Never suffer a poisoner to live
and
Never suffer a witch to live.

I have heard of this mis-translation before the first is before the King James edition and the second is the King James edition.
The problem is when the fundamentalists take it literally.
I have heard to get it straight you will have to read the Tanakh not translated of course.

On another note, an individual who is currently Wiccan that used to be Jewish had a teacher at one point (the class was about the kabala) had some book that stated that Moses used exactly 72 words to part the red sea the curious thing is that in the Tanakh there are exactly 72 names for the creator.
I don't know the name of the book however and she does remember either, but it would be interesting to see that book.
 
Dadof2 said:
Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. If someone is confronted with the Gospel ignorance is no longer in the picture. Either the person accepts it by faith or goes on to accept it, or they do not. Either way they are no longer ignorant.
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this also doesnt make sense to me. somes things we cant no for sure even with knowledge, so we give a little faith to the facts. with faith you are submitting to a little ignorance because you are accepting that the bible is true even though one doesnt have full knowledge right??
 
Maverick60 said:
Not a good point. I can drop a cat off a roof and see what happens. I cant see if that cat goes to heaven.

And that brings up a new question for me... Does that cat have to believe in god as well? Or does all of religion just refer to the human species? And how is that differentiated? Does anything cover that?
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what happens when a baby aged about 10 months dies? that baby has absolutely no concept of god or belief, does that baby go to heaven?
 
ozarkaBRAND said:
Originally, life was perfect here. He created humans, and put them on earth (angels are in heaven, humans are different, and we reside someplace different). Then, the first 2, Adam and Eve, were deceived by satan, they screwed up, and it damned the rest of creation.
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oz, where did satan come from? and also who created the angels?

also where exactly did god come from, did he just appear one day out of nothing? who created the creator?
 
ozarkaBRAND said:
Originally, life was perfect here. He created humans, and put them on earth (angels are in heaven, humans are different, and we reside someplace different). Then, the first 2, Adam and Eve, were deceived by satan, they screwed up, and it damned the rest of creation.
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They ate from the tree of knowledge, why would you not want your children to attempt to attain the same perfection that you have?
Also I have heard that divination is a sin, do you follow this train of thought and if so what is wrong about divination?
 
Common methods of divination

astrology: by celestial bodies.
augury: by the flight of birds.
bibliomancy: by books (frequently, but not always, religious texts).
cartomancy: by cards.
cheiromancy/palmistry: by palms.
chronomancy:about time, lucky/unlucky days.
cybermancy: by computers.
gastromancy: by crystal ball.
extispicy: by the entrails of animals.
feng shui: by earthen harmony.
I Ching divination: by the I Ching; a form of bibliomancy.
numerology: by numbers.
oneiromancy: by dreams.
onomancy: by names.
[B]Ouija: board divination.
rhabdomancy:[/B] divination by rods
runecasting/Runic divination: by runes.
scrying: by reflective objects.
taromancy: a form of cartomancy using tarot cards.
necromancy: by the dead, or spirits/souls of the dead/recently dead
 
b unit said:
oz, where did satan come from? and also who created the angels?

also where exactly did god come from, did he just appear one day out of nothing? who created the creator?
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Satan was originally an angel. He thought himself greater than God, and was cast down from heaven into the depths of hell. I don't know that I've read this, but I'd imagine God created the angels, with the monotheistic view of Christianity, who else would there be!?

And man, I gotta admit, there are some things that I can't wrap my mind around. Like where did God come from. It's hard to imagine God going on infinitely both backward and forward in time. I know I can't fathom it. These types of things, while not comprehendable to the human mind, these things are to be revealed to us in eternity.

I heard a recording of a Christian man who describes a vision he had in which he was cast down into hell as a non-believer. It's a very interesting listen. In it, he talks about being able to know and understand things that just aren't to be grasped by human minds. Man, I'll see if I can find this online and link it here.. it's worth listening to imo.
 
bryan4980 said:
They ate from the tree of knowledge, why would you not want your children to attempt to attain the same perfection that you have?
Also I have heard that divination is a sin, do you follow this train of thought and if so what is wrong about divination?
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Humans aren't capable of having the knowledge of right and wrong, and avoiding wrong. Even if a person was a Christian and had the knowledge of salvation and what their purpose was under God, then I don't believe that they would be at all capable of avoiding sin. In our human condition, it just isn't feasible.

I'm not very familiar with divination, so I cannot comment.
 
ozarkaBRAND said:
I heard a recording of a Christian man who describes a vision he had in which he was cast down into hell as a non-believer. It's a very interesting listen. In it, he talks about being able to know and understand things that just aren't to be grasped by human minds. Man, I'll see if I can find this online and link it here.. it's worth listening to imo.
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he wasn't on mushrooms or peyote juice at the time was he? lol
 
One thing nobody answered me yet. Who is God? Is it some kind of giant guy in white robes with white hair sitting in the clouds judging people or what?
Religion teaches that we are (humans) separate from God, we are here, He's there... somewhere.
Spirituality teaches that We Are All One. God is everything, universe, this planet, we are all part of God. There's nowhere else to go but to Oneness, which is God. There's no "hell" in the sence religion teaches, "hell" only exists here on Earth and many people, including many christians already live in it, worrying about afterlife and being in constant fear of God.
 
ozarkaBRAND said:
And man, I gotta admit, there are some things that I can't wrap my mind around. Like where did God come from. It's hard to imagine God going on infinitely both backward and forward in time. I know I can't fathom it.
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It's actually exactly the way it is. Because time is simply an illusion. Time only exists here, in physical world. Isaac Newton said it, not me. :)
 
bryan4980 said:
So a person has basicly one chance to pick the correct religion? How do we know which is right which is wrong? They all claim to be right, so pick the wrong one and you're screwed.
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This is the problem with every religion. They all claim to be the right one. Spirituality teaches that there are many ways to God and every person finds their own way, not commanded by any kind of religion.
 
joeymutz said:
yes and pretty much that is what i believe. I can't imagine our energy as a human being used as something smaller, like i said in an earlier post. I think we gradually kept being reincarnated into something more sophisticated and now were humans. Some people believe they have past lives, it may be true they may still have memories from there past lives they stayed with there energy. But who knows? The universe reuses its self and we are part of the universe so we would be re used.
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Life itself and our souls are all about progress, so if you are human being right now, you will never become something smaller. BTW, religion doesn't believe in reincarnation. You get only one shot at life and that's it. It wouldn't benefit church to tell people you live multiple lives, because people wouldn't be so scared, (if screwed up in this life you can fix it in the next life).
 
witht the facts surrounding jesus's persecution and delieverance back to heaven: why would god give his son only to have him die for our sins, when he himself could just forgive us outright. and if god can sacrifice his son for our sake, only to bring him back to heaven doesnt that make his sacrice trivial. think of it like giving blood, you can give blood and it is replaced......
 
Jesus died because people killed him. Simple as that. People had free will, they could follow Jesus who would teach everyone new way of life and how to create a better life for everyone, or reject him. And that exactly what people did. And then when they realized they made a huge mistake, they made up a beautiful story about how Jesus sacrificed himself so they wouldn't feel guilty for killing him.
 
T-Bone said:
You need to get on your knees and ask for forgiveness. This thread is uncalled for. I'm not gonna read anymore of this thread because it is sickining!.
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I feel terrible for you.

This is a great thread other than absolute BS like the post above.
 
DmitryWI said:
Jesus died because people killed him. Simple as that. People had free will, they could follow Jesus who would teach everyone new way of life and how to create a better life for everyone, or reject him. And that exactly what people did. And then when they realized they made a huge mistake, they made up a beautiful story about how Jesus sacrificed himself so they wouldn't feel guilty for killing him.
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Same thing about "sin". It is not possible to sin against God. You cannot offend God, nor can God be damaged or destroyed. You cannot hurt God, nor can God be harmed in any way. And that which cannot be harmed cannot, and would not, harm another.

Do you understand the logic behind the truth that God do not condemn, nor shall He punish, nor has He need to seek retribution. God has no such need, for God has not been, and cannot be, offended or damaged or hurt in any way.
 
yeah alexander, that was by far the most disappointing post in this thread. i asked for honesty at the beginning, and it just showed a part of religion that is way extreme. only helped keep this discussion going.
 
DmitryWI said:
Jesus died because people killed him. Simple as that. People had free will, they could follow Jesus who would teach everyone new way of life and how to create a better life for everyone, or reject him. And that exactly what people did. And then when they realized they made a huge mistake, they made up a beautiful story about how Jesus sacrificed himself so they wouldn't feel guilty for killing him.
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so even after adam and eve screwed themselves out of eden and went against god. god felt safe sending his son to the now vastly sinful world and didnt anticipate his sons persecution. seems like god could have predicted that one. it seems to affirm what i said before:with the facts surrounding jesus's persecution and delieverance back to heaven: why would god give his son only to have him die for our sins, when he himself could just forgive us outright. and if god can sacrifice his son for our sake, only to bring him back to heaven doesnt that make his sacrice trivial. think of it like giving blood, you can give blood and it is replaced......
 
as far as Adam and Eve goes, again all this talk about sin, going against God, etc. is just stories from Bible. It is not possible to sin against God. You cannot offend or hurt God. Same thing goes for Jesus, nobody could offend or hurt him even by killing him. God simply was giving people a fair shot to better their lives through Jesus, but people refused to do so.
 
DmitryWI said:
as far as Adam and Eve goes, again all this talk about sin, going against God, etc. is just stories from Bible. It is not possible to sin against God. You cannot offend or hurt God. Same thing goes for Jesus, nobody could offend or hurt him even by killing him. God simply was giving people a fair shot to better their lives through Jesus, but people refused to do so.
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1. so how do you know what stories are true, and how do you defned the chosen passages against the disgaurded
2. if sin against god is not possible, then there would be no such thing as sin.
3. if nothing can hurt god, why does not believing result in hell??
 
bigironkiller said:
1. so how do you know what stories are true, and how do you defned the chosen passages against the disgaurded
2. if sin against god is not possible, then there would be no such thing as sin.
3. if nothing can hurt god, why does not believing result in hell??
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1. I read many spiritual books, I know many people who are spiritual teacher and who can freely communicate with God, I can myself communicate with God to some degree through meditation too. (Every person has the ability to do so, but again bible doesn't teach how. Do I need to tell you why?) This is how I find out the truth for myself. I don't understand how can someone claim they know all the truth if they read nothing but bible.

2. There's no such thing as sin. What is "sin"? Wrong doing against other human being? You tell me. Something church came up with to keep people guilty and therefor in fear? God can not get hurt or offended, but many people get hurt and offended on behalf of God. Look at T-Bones post. Perfect example.

3. Lol It doesn't. Just because religion teaches that, doesn't make it true.
 
bigironkiller said:
witht the facts surrounding jesus's persecution and delieverance back to heaven: why would god give his son only to have him die for our sins, when he himself could just forgive us outright. and if god can sacrifice his son for our sake, only to bring him back to heaven doesnt that make his sacrice trivial. think of it like giving blood, you can give blood and it is replaced......
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Jesus had to be sacrificed in order for justice to be served. The sins of man, and the disobedience of man to God was something that had to be atoned for. Jesus was the only acceptable sacrifice to accomplish this. I don't believe that the resurrection and the consequent ascension into heaven make Christ's death trivial. Everything happened according to prophecy.
 
DmitryWI said:
as far as Adam and Eve goes, again all this talk about sin, going against God, etc. is just stories from Bible. It is not possible to sin against God. You cannot offend or hurt God. Same thing goes for Jesus, nobody could offend or hurt him even by killing him. God simply was giving people a fair shot to better their lives through Jesus, but people refused to do so.
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Even under the assumption that one cannot offend or hurt God, his authority was rejected, which is evil in itself, resulting in a need for justice, justice that came to pass by the torture and murder of Christ.
 
ozarkaBRAND said:
Even under the assumption that one cannot offend or hurt God, his authority was rejected, which is evil in itself, resulting in a need for justice, justice that came to pass by the torture and murder of Christ.
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His authority was never rejected by anyone, because it's not possible, you can not reject God even if you don't believe in Him. God is everything and everyone, WE ARE ALL ONE. How can you reject yourself? If you truly know who God is, you would understand that... If God didn't want you to do something, for example, not believing in Him, He would make it not possible to do so. I guess bible fails to explain that as well...
People would always believe in Hell and in a God who would send them there, as long as they believe that God is like man-ruthless, self-serving, unforgiving, and vengeful.
I believe truth is God seeks to prove Himself to no one, for God has no need to do that. God is, and that is what is so. Those who know themselves to be One with God, or have the experience of God within, have no need, nor do they seek, to prove that to anyone, least of all themselves.
 
Disagree fully. The bible clearly expresses that God is not like man. Also, to say that you cannot reject God's commands are BS. He clearly commands things in scripture, and they are disobeyed regularly. You, have no faith in the scriptures, obviously. Why is that?

You come off to me as a gnostic.
 
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Genesis 1:27
 
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