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Questions on my IGF-1 Lr3 plan

glipp

Member
I will be running 40 mcg (20 mcg each forearm) every 3 days in my rats forearms to help repair tendinitis that has been plaguing it off and on for 10 months now. Question is could I also mix in biceps/triceps for growth and still get healing benefits with this schedule (ie: Mon: Forearms (bilateral), Thurs: Biceps (bilateral), Sun. Triceps (bilateral) or would it be too infrequent on the forearms to get the healing benefit I am after. Also first time run on IGF so I don't know. Are the healing properties strong enough to continue to train my rat and heal , or, as I suspect, do I need to give him a break until healed? Thanks for any help.
 
well i hope you are using the rat form of igf rather than the human. ;)

yes biceps and triceps would be wise too as they also have tendons that tie into the elbow. I think some period of full rest is needed to alow any sort of tendonitis to settle. maybe 2 weeks off the gym.also use some ibuprofen gel 4-5 times/day around the area and icepacks 4-5times/day for 10-15 minutes at a time. and if you have good ehalth cover(for cheap physio) then aome ultrasound might help to.
 
I will be running 40 mcg (20 mcg each forearm) every 3 days in my rats forearms to help repair tendinitis that has been plaguing it off and on for 10 months now. Question is could I also mix in biceps/triceps for growth and still get healing benefits with this schedule (ie: Mon: Forearms (bilateral), Thurs: Biceps (bilateral), Sun. Triceps (bilateral) or would it be too infrequent on the forearms to get the healing benefit I am after. Also first time run on IGF so I don't know. Are the healing properties strong enough to continue to train my rat and heal , or, as I suspect, do I need to give him a break until healed? Thanks for any help.


Growth factors like IGF-1 have great potential to help heal tendonopathy (tendinitis). I cleard up forarm tendinitis with IGF use along with other conventional methods (changing exercises targeting forearms, less frequency with troublesome exercises, analgesics, etc). I ran IGF PWO workout days into the last muscle trained but I also had a seperate dose of 10mics into the forearm (as close as possible to thepain area).

One very interesting think I found in my research is that DMSO hs been studied successfully for treatment of tendinitis pain. Here is the link:

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[Dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO) gel in treatment of acute tendopathies. A multicenter, placebo-controlled, randomized study][Article in German]


Kneer W, Kühnau S, Bias P, Haag RF.
Orthopädische Gemeinschaftspraxis, Stockach.

METHOD: In a placebo-controlled double-blind study, 157 patients with acute tenopathies (periarthropathia humeroscapularis or lateral epicondylitis) were randomized to treatment with either DMSO gel 10% applied three times a day (n = 77) or the gel excipient (n = 80). The treatment phase was 14 days long and included four examinations. Treatment was started within 72 hours after the onset of the acute symptoms. RESULTS: Pain of movement under loading and the mobility of the joints were significantly improved after, respectively, 3 and 7 days treatment with DMSO, as compared with placebo. After 14 days on DMSO, a further improvement was observed, and 44% of the patients were pain-free (placebo 9%). In both groups, the substance was well or very well tolerated by more than 90% of the patients. No relevant changes in laboratory results or severe undesired events occurred under treatment. Undesired events were seen in 8 patients receiving DMSO treatment, and in 3 patients in the placebo group. CONCLUSION: The results of this study confirm that Rheumabene (10% DMSO gel) is suitable for topical use in the treatment of acute tenopathy, producing clinically relevant results with little risk to the patient.


Another good read is the effect of Growth Factors like IGF-1 on healing tendinitis:

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Excerpt: (IGF info in bold below)

Manipulating Growth Factors
Growth factors are proteins that stimulate cell proliferation and differentiation. Some growth factors can cause normal uninjured tendon fibroblasts to proliferate and synthesize more collagen and proteoglycans. Since growth factors play an important role in tissue healing, researchers have wondered if they could be used to improve the healing of tendons and ligaments.

Research into growth factor treatments is difficult because the effects of growth factors can be very different in vivo than in vitro and because fibroblast cells injured by repetitive motion can react differently to growth factors than normal cells. [1] In a study of carpal tunnel syndrome, wrist ligament cells from injured and uninjured people were exposed to four growth factors, including transforming growth factor beta (TGF-beta).[1] The cells from the injured patients produced abnormally high amounts of Type III collagen and low amounts of Type I collagen when exposed to the growth factors, as compared to the controls. The cells in the injured patients seemed to have been altered by the injury so that their response to growth factors was different. Therefore, studies that use growth factors to improve healing of acute tendon injuries might not apply to healing of tendinosis injuries.

Nevertheless, growth factors are worth studying to determine their potential for treating acute tendon and ligament injuries and to see if any of the growth factors have positive effects on repetitive motion injuries as well. If growth factor treatments don't seem to produce a good response from cells injured by repetitive motion, stem cell treatment could be combined with growth factor treatment; the stem cells would provide normal uninjured cells for the growth factors to stimulate, and the growth factors could stimulate them to produce healthy tendon/ligament collagen. See the previous section "Local Injection of Stem Cells" for more information about stem cells.

Another obstacle with growth factor therapy is that a fine line could exist between too little and too much of the growth factor; too little could cause inability to heal and too much could cause abnormal healing, scar formation, or other negative effects. When wounds and acute injuries heal normally, the body provides the correct balance of growth factors at the correct time in sequence as healing progresses from one stage to the next. More research is needed to investigate whether we can control the timing and the amount of added growth factors well enough to optimize healing. Researchers will need to investigate how the effects of various growth factors depend on the dose, the injury site, the stage in the healing process, and the interactions with other growth factors.

Various delivery methods for growth factors have been tried. Growth factors can be injected directly into the site of injury, but they tend to break down quickly. Researchers have had difficulty maintaining constant enough levels with the injection method. Other researchers have tried implanting controlled-release polymer matrices or microspheres into the injury site to slowly release growth factors into the tissue; these methods could be appropriate for some acute injuries, but a non-surgical method is better for tendinosis. Many researchers are now looking toward gene therapy delivery methods as being the most promising way to use growth factors to improve healing of injuries. See the section below on "Gene Therapy."

The following list of growth factors describes some of the studies that have been done to determine whether these substances can be used to help improve the healing of tendon and ligament injuries.


IGF-1
Insulin-like growth factor 1, or IGF-1, is a growth factor that is important for tissue healing. It can stimulate an increase in Type I collagen when added to normal fibroblasts.

One study showed that tenocytes from healthy equine tendon made more Type I collagen relative to Type III collagen when treated with IFG-1 in vitro.[31] The tendon samples had "greater numbers of larger and more metabolically active fibroblasts," and IGF-1 enhanced collagen synthesis in a dose dependant manner. The authors suggest that IGF-1 might help treat horses with tendinosis. A growth factor that helps promote Type I collagen relative to Type III collagen in tendon is certainly worth more study for its potential use in treating tendinosis.

Several other studies showed that a combination of IGF-1 and platlet-derived growth factor increased the rupture force, stiffness, and breaking energy in rat medial collateral ligaments.[32,33] Also, one study showed that treating injured rat Achilles tendons with IGF-1 reduced the "maximal functional deficit" and the "time to functional recovery."[34] Another study showed that IGF-1 and IGF-II stimulated collagen, proteoglycan, and DNA synthesis in a dose-dependent manner in rabbit flexor tendon in vitro.[35]

IGF-1 was not one of the growth factors tried in the previously mentioned carpal tunnel syndrome study[1], so it would be interesting to discover its effect on cells from tendinosis patients.

GDF-5
Growth and differentiation factor 5, or GDF-5, has been linked to tendon healing in several studies. One study showed that the tensile strength of healing rat tendons increased in a dose-dependent manner when treated with GDF-5.[36] Another study showed that GDF-5 deficiency caused mouse tail tendon to have a 17% increase in the proportion of medium diameter collagen fibrils at the expense of larger diameter fibrils, as well as a 33% increase in irregularly-shaped polymorphic fibrils.[37] These structural differences did not cause major differences in biomechanical properties of the tendon, but did cause the fibers to relax 11% more slowly than controls during time-dependent stress/relaxation tests. More research would be needed to see if GDF-5 could play a role in the treatment of tendinosis.

CDMP-2
One research group has investigated the potential for treating tendon injuries with cartilage derived morphogenetic protein, or CDMP-2.[25] This protein is a member of the TGF-beta super family. The researchers treated injured rat Achilles tendons with injections of CDMP-2 and found that the treated tendons were 39% stronger than controls after 8 days. The tendons were also mechanically loaded during healing because the researchers suspected that loading would help the CDMP-2 induce tendon-like tissue instead of bone or cartilage tissue. (The abstract didn't say if the control tendons were also mechanically loaded; if not, the improved healing could be from the loading rather than from the CDMP-2. Presumably, they loaded both the controls and the treated injuries.)

TGF-beta1
Transforming growth factor beta1, or TGF-beta1, is a growth factor important in wound and tissue healing. It has been associated with excessive scar tissue formation in some cases. A group of researchers studied the effect of reducing TGF-beta1 because they were looking for a way to reduce the adhesions and scar tissue that commonly form between the site of injured hand flexor tendon and the surrounding tissues.[26,27] These adhesions reduce normal range of motion. Injured rabbit flexor tendons treated with neutralizing antibody to TGF-beta1 had approximately twice as much range of motion as the controls after 8 weeks of healing. This research might not have direct implications for treating tendinosis, but it does show that sometimes lowering growth factors can lead to better healing; more is not always better when it comes to growth factors.

BMP-12
Bone morphogenic protein 12, or BMP-12, has been shown to improve tendon healing; researchers found that in vivo gene therapy delivery of BMP-12 caused a two-fold increase in tissue strength and stiffness of healing chicken tendons.[38] See the section below "Gene Therapy."

There is one other link to a account accessed Book called "The Use of Growth Factors in the Management of Tendinopathies". I wish I could access this info...

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Great info pumbertot and Bobaslaw I appreciate it. My only question is from what I have read dosing more often than every 72 hrs. burns out the receptors pretty quick. Over 40 mcg risks perma gut. Would a Mon. Bic (10 mcg bi lateral) forearm (10 mcg bi lateral) Wed. Tri (10 mcg bi lateral) forearm (10 mcg bi lateral) Fri. forearms (20 bi lateral) schedule be close enough in terms of dosing to not burn out receptors too quick and still be high enough on the dosing to see some healing/growth in these areas? Thanks again for the help.
 
Great info pumbertot and Bobaslaw I appreciate it. My only question is from what I have read dosing more often than every 72 hrs. burns out the receptors pretty quick. Over 40 mcg risks perma gut. Would a Mon. Bic (10 mcg bi lateral) forearm (10 mcg bi lateral) Wed. Tri (10 mcg bi lateral) forearm (10 mcg bi lateral) Fri. forearms (20 bi lateral) schedule be close enough in terms of dosing to not burn out receptors too quick and still be high enough on the dosing to see some healing/growth in these areas? Thanks again for the help.

in short, yes it would. you are correct receptor shutdown appears to happen quicker at more frequent and higher doses. but its not true to say over 40mcg is risky for perma gut(nice choice of words). many are using 50-60mcg and seeing no gut growth after extended periods of time.
 
in short, yes it would. you are correct receptor shutdown appears to happen quicker at more frequent and higher doses. but its not true to say over 40mcg is risky for perma gut(nice choice of words). many are using 50-60mcg and seeing no gut growth after extended periods of time.

Cool. So that is what I will do. I appreciate the help. I read that phrase perma gut somewhere so I can't take credit for it (probably grunt's sticky). I probably should have said 40mcg at a time, but I am just trying to be careful. Don't want a rat w/ perma gut right? ;)
 
Cool. So that is what I will do. I appreciate the help. I read that phrase perma gut somewhere so I can't take credit for it (probably grunt's sticky). I probably should have said 40mcg at a time, but I am just trying to be careful. Don't want a rat w/ perma gut right? ;)

yes now that rat would not be very aesthetically pleasing with a Coleman gut. :D

no problem, hope it all goes well for you(it will I know this).
 
yes now that rat would not be very aesthetically pleasing with a Coleman gut. :D

no problem, hope it all goes well for you(it will I know this).

hey pumbertot, i've been reading some your post lately and you seem really knowledgeble even with igf-1 rh, i was wondering if you could give me a sample protocol of igf-1 rh would look like?

P.S. sorry for going off topic.
 
hey pumbertot, i've been reading some your post lately and you seem really knowledgeble even with igf-1 rh, i was wondering if you could give me a sample protocol of igf-1 rh would look like?

P.S. sorry for going off topic.


I just read a lot, have absorbed all the good stuff out there especially by Grunt and also not afraid to experiment on myself. also lucky to train at a gym that has a few 'good' peptide users.
 
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