Pf/cissus=Gyno?????

[Colin]

Please link me to the study, However, I have the full-text study and they didn't have access to NMR nor
did they indicate any specific molecule. They used IR spectra and only gave clues to the molecule's identity.
The study was Posted by PA over at Avant. PA claimed it contained androstendione.

We been studing Cissus for over a year and if it where a progestrin it would not be a hidden fact.

This only serves to illustrate the point of my last post further;USPLabs has the full text study on hand yet has not posted it after my (a consumer who has purchased USPLabs cissus in the past) request to do so.

 

[Guest]

Leucine and my use of other supplements has no relevance to this matter.

I do not have access to the study,otherwise I would not have asked USPLabs to provide the text.Given the fact that USPLabs sells cissus products I would think that you or Jacob would be happy to post up a study indicating cissus to be devoid of any chance of inducing gyno.

The abstract I provided is enough to raise healthy skepticism,as is the bulk of Dinoii's commentary.USPLabs merely dismissing my request as unfounded ,as well as labeling D's words as childish when D has presented a grounded arguement,does not paint USPLabs as a whole in a good light.

As a representative I think I would not hesitate to step up to defend my product,I would one surely do so if Avant product was called into question.

What you posted was a copy and paste from another forum..that abstract is fabricated. I addressed the issue just go back to the thread that you copied and pasted from.

This was almost 2 years ago..

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Leucine and my use of other supplements has no relevance to this matter.

I do not have access to the study,otherwise I would not have asked USPLabs to provide the text.Given the fact that USPLabs sells cissus products I would think that you or Jacob would be happy to post up a study indicating cissus to be devoid of any chance of inducing gyno.

The abstract I provided is enough to raise healthy skepticism,as is the bulk of Dinoii's commentary.USPLabs merely dismissing my request as unfounded ,as well as labeling D's words as childish when D has presented a grounded arguement,does not paint USPLabs as a whole in a good light.

As a representative I think I would not hesitate to step up to defend my product,I would one surely do so if Avant product was called into question.

Firstly, do not speak to me about jumping to the defense of USP Labs; I was this company's first and, at one time, only representative. I've littered this and other boards with exorbitant amount of data on our products.

Secondly, the issue at hand is a nuanced understanding of Phytos., and their interplay with Alpha and Beta ERs. As has been stated, they have a low binding affinity to Alpha-1 ERs which are expressed heavily in breast tissue, leading to a low chance of Cissus inducing gyno.

Thirdly, it would seem you didn't understand to the allusion to Leucine; my point was recognizing emergent patterns from bodies of data, not a single abstract without a leg to stand on.

Not to sway towards arbitrariness and subjectiveness, but, the fact is, the 'real-world' most often produces the emergent patterns I spoke of earlier. I.e., we have all seen lauded ingredients and supplements fail to produce in real-world scenarios because of unforeseen complexities. Now, Cissus, and I speak of the ingredient as a whole not merely our product, has been prominent in this capacity since 2005 (fair assumption). If there was a tangible danger of it inducing or exacerbating gyno., then the reports would exist, but, they do not. This is mere speculation and conjecture which, to this point, has not been validated by real-world occurrence.

Literally thousands of individuals have ingested Cissus and I have actually never seen a single report of this. That is what is deemed as an emergent pattern in a body of real-world data.

 

[Guest]

This only serves to illustrate the point of my last post further;USPLabs has the full text study on hand yet has not posted it after my (a consumer who has purchased USPLabs cissus in the past) request to do so.

It's at the school's medical libary. It should not be our job to defend an ficticious report. You should e-mail Pat Arnold and ask him for the full text.

 

[PGJPB]

This thread branched off to a discussion about cissus only, which it seems to have reached a conclusion that it is safe for gyno.

But what about Powerfull and gyno? I have two bottles sitting here and the possibility of gyno has me a little skeptical to run it.

 

[dinoiii]

This thread branched off to a discussion about cissus only, which it seems to have reached a conclusion that it is safe for gyno.

Interesting deductive reasoning.

But what about Powerfull and gyno? I have two bottles sitting here and the possibility of gyno has me a little skeptical to run it.

We're still waiting on a question for powerfull over at my subforum, but I no longer hold my breath on getting actual science (we still hear what we want to - case in point: re-read thread).


D_

 

[PGJPB]

Interesting deductive reasoning.




We're still waiting on a question for powerfull over at my subforum, but I no longer hold my breath on getting actual science (we still hear what we want to - case in point: re-read thread).


D_

not safe, but seems reletively safe. I suppose I shouldn't have said that in reference to this thread only.

Anyways, question still stands. Could you link to your other thread?

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Interesting deductive reasoning.




We're still waiting on a question for powerfull over at my subforum, but I no longer hold my breath on getting actual science (we still hear what we want to - case in point: re-read thread).


D_

Which question is that? (I'm not sure what sub-forum you're speaking of).

I'm happy to discuss the science of PowerFULL with you. I wrote this awhile ago:

How Does PowerFULL Work?

PureDOPA, containing an extract of Mucuna Pruriens induces an increase in endogenous (natural) LevaDopa production that vastly outperforms synthetic LevaDopa with 110% higher peak concentrations, 165% longer peak concentrations, and an onset time around 50% shorter [1]. LD itself then leads to an increase in natural Growth Hormone production which research has shown to be staggering, even in healthy, normal subjects [3, 4]. Research has also shown that this increase is most likely occurring by way of LD-induced hypothalamtic GHRH (growth hormone releasing hormone) production [2, 4].

If the GH Increase Came From Synthetic L-DOPA, How Does PowerFULL Compare?

It is true the increases of plasma GHRH and GH [1,2,3,4 ] have been noted as a result of synthetic L-DOPA administration. However, Mucuna P., has demonstrated an efficacy at raising L-DOPA (with its subsequent effect on GHRH and GH) of twice to three times that of synthetic L-DOPA [1, 6, 7]. This increase in effectiveness stems from Mucuna most likely possessing either independent L-DOPA enhancing adjuvents, or possibly containing inherent decarboxylase inhibitors [6. 7. 8]. The latter scenario is likely as Dopamine and its metabolites have not been found in the nigrostriatal tract after Mucuna administration [8], as well as a lack of dyskensia in Parkinson’s patients [1] and lack of side-effects in normal patients [3]. This data is indicative of a lack of Dopaminergic transmission in peripheral tissues.

I Have Read L-DOPA Has Some Unwanted Side-Effects, What About PowerFULL?

Synthetic L-DOPA has been noted to have many adverse side-effects including hypertension, dyskenisia (uncontrollable movement), dizziness, nausea, and so on. However, Mucuna has not shown these same side-effects in Parkinson’s patients [1], and L-DOPA administration has not displayed these same side-effects in healthy, normal subjects [2, 3].

What About Natural Dopamine Production, Doesn’t L-DOPA Decrease That?

Along with the above side-effects, synthetic L-DOPA has been shown to have damaging effects to dopamine ions in the region of the brain most responsible for dopamine transmission (the substantia nigra). This can lead to an aggregate decrease in endogenous dopamine production. However, Mucuna has been shown to have neuro-restorative effects, actually increasing levels of serotonin, dopamine, levadopa, and norepinephrine [9]. This is most likely due to a more efficient transmission of dopamine, and Mucuna containing NADH and COQ-10, both powerfull neurorestorative compounds [9. 10].

So You’re Saying Even as a Health Adult, PowerFULL Will Effect Me?

Yes. As shown Mucuna is vastly more effective than synthetic L-DOPA at raising L-DOPA and Dopamine levels [1, 6, 7], and also has been administered to health adults with success [5]. Coupled with the research in healthy, normal adults as it pertains to synthetic L-DOPA administration [2. 3. 4], and PowerFULL being standardized to 50% L-DOPA, the research is overwhelmingly positive.

REFERENCES:

[1] Mucuna pruriens in Parkinson's disease: a double blind clinical and pharmacological study. Katzenschlager R, et al.

[2] L-dopa stimulates release of hypothalamic growth hormone-releasing hormone in humans. K Chihara, et al.

[3]Intravenous levodopa administration in humans based on a two-compartment kinetic model. Mollie Gordon, et al.
[4] Effect of oral administration of L-dopa on the plasma levels of growth hormone-releasing hormone (GHRH) in normal subjects and patients with various endocrine and metabolic diseases. Mitsuhashi S, et al.

[5] Bioavailability of L-DOPA from HP-200 - a Formulation of Seed Powder of Mucuna pruriens (Bak): a Pharmacokinetic and Pharmacodynamic Study. S.Mahajani et al.,

[6] Mucuna pruriens proves more effective than L-DOPA in Parkinson's disease animal model. Ghazala Hussian, Bala V. Manyam

[7] Beans (Mucuna Pruriens) For Parkinsons Disease:An Herbal Alternative. Bala V. Manyam, M.D.,

[8] Effect of antiparkinson drug HP-200 (Mucuna pruriens) on the central monoaminergic neurotransmitters. Bala V. Manyam et al.,

[9] Neuroprotective effects of the antiparkinson drug Mucuna pruriens. Manywam et al.,

[10] Protecting Axonal Degeneration by Increasing Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide Levels in Experimental Autoimmune Encephalomyelitis Models. Shinjiro Kaneko, et al.

Not sure if that counts as science.

 

[PGJPB]

still unsure if that makes it safe to run. I was hoping that running these two supps would be safe to run with minimal to no sides, but any chance of gyno irritation with little return has scared me off of these two i think. i've searched around in many threads but can't seem to find a good answer to this.
They are getting closer and closer to the trash can everyday.

 

[john123131]

still unsure if that makes it safe to run. I was hoping that running these two supps would be safe to run with minimal to no sides, but any chance of gyno irritation with little return has scared me off of these two i think. i've searched around in many threads but can't seem to find a good answer to this.
They are getting closer and closer to the trash can everyday.

hmmm, you seem overly worried, send them to me.

 

[PGJPB]

hmmm, you seem overly worried, send them to me.

That's exactly the kind of talk that got me to purchase them. That's the encouragment I need to hear!

 

[poopypants]

seriously I have taken powerfull in one form or another for months on end before and never had ANY gyno issues with it. I am even VERY gyno proned so Im sure it would be apparent in an individual such as myself. Stop wasting time and enjoy some nice pumps strength and killer sleep.

 

[dinoiii]

Which question is that? (I'm not sure what sub-forum you're speaking of).

I'm happy to discuss the science of PowerFULL with you. I wrote this awhile ago:

Not sure if that counts as science.

Subforum is on Lean Bulk though this may be a "dirty word" on this forum, so I'll anticipate that this will be *** out potentially.

Nonetheless, I believe we look for science that agrees with advertisement.

In other words, the nomenclature is all that was challenged (as apparently it has been in the past to Jacob's suggestion). That said...if PowerFull is merely Mucuna puriens (in standardized form), a highly-super-duper-rare extract it is not and probably doesn't justify its cost.

Tell me what should support the use of said product vs. any other form of mucuna???

I am afraid that this may be considered "hi-jacking" or whatever considering how this thread started, but Jacob pointed out Eucommia on my subforum so I think that if this is the only way we can get things answered - sure, what the hell.


D_

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Subforum is on Lean Bulk though this may be a "dirty word" on this forum, so I'll anticipate that this will be *** out potentially.

Nonetheless, I believe we look for science that agrees with advertisement.

In other words, the nomenclature is all that was challenged (as apparently it has been in the past to Jacob's suggestion). That said...if PowerFull is merely Mucuna puriens (in standardized form), a highly-super-duper-rare extract it is not and probably doesn't justify its cost.

Tell me what should support the use of said product vs. any other form of mucuna???

D_

I could, however, wouldn't that constitute a discussion on marketing and not science? By a discussion on science, I thought you were alluding to an expounding of PowerFULL's MOA. I thought this discussion is what you wanted to get away from in the first place?

At any rate, the 'extract' isn't necessarily the most important aspect, but where, how, and at what stage of maturity the Mucuna is cultivated. We feel that working in close quarters with a direct-Indian source puts us in an advantageous position in this respect. Mucuna is as much a qualitative (quality of plant, time of maturity, quality of cultivating, geographic location) argument as much as it is a simple quantitative (% point of LD).

Anyway, I'm not here to justify or condemn your products or mine; I highly doubt you're in the deciding stages of purchasing one of our products, so besides hearing ourselves speak I don't think either of us have much to do here.

Have a good one, D.

Standardization of cultivation and harvesting stage of velvet bean (Mucuna pruriens var. utilis) for optimum yield and quality. Krishnamurthy, R., et al.,
Zandu Foundation for Health Care, Ambach, Pardi, Valsad, Gujarat 396 145, India.
Indian Journal of Agricultural Sciences, 2003 (Vol. 73) (No. 11) 585-589

Abstract:
A field experiment was conducted in Gujarat, India during 2 crop cycles in 2000-01 to standardize the cultivation and postharvest drying of velvet bean (M. pruriens var. utilis) for commercial production. The crop was raised during the start of the monsoon rain in June and irrigated (surface) at 15-day intervals during the dry season of October-January. The crop gave the highest seed yield of 1.995 t/ha at a closer spacing of 1.0 m ? 1.0 m (10 000 plants/ha) with individual plant supporting system. The trial conducted with wider spacing (1.0 m ? 1.5 m, 8 000 plants/ha) and individual plant supporting (with bamboo stakes) with 12 rates of N, P2O5 and K2O/ha fertilizer resulted in higher number of pods/9 m2 (252-295) and seed yield with 75, 100 and 0 (1.196 t/ha); 150, 50 and 0 (1.476 t/ha); 150, 100 and 0 (1.496 t/ha); 225, 50 and 0 (1.504 t/ha); and 225, 100 and 0 (1.531 t/ha) applications. K was not applied as the farm soil contained high K2O (240 kg/ha). The pods picked at semi-dry maturity stage gave optimum seed yield (110.40 g/20 pods), L-Dopa (4.680%) and superior quality of seed (white colour, bold and without wrinkles and cracks) used in drug manufacturing industry.

 

[jakellpet]

still unsure if that makes it safe to run. I was hoping that running these two supps would be safe to run with minimal to no sides, but any chance of gyno irritation with little return has scared me off of these two i think. i've searched around in many threads but can't seem to find a good answer to this.
They are getting closer and closer to the trash can everyday.

Ive been taking PF for on and off 6 months - recently experimented with 8 caps a day and have had no negative side effects whatever including gyno.

It's my favourite supp, and I dont like cycling off it.

If anything my nutsack has grown under the shear weight of gizz production (no scientific proof but it goddamn feels like it)

 

[PGJPB]

seriously I have taken powerfull in one form or another for months on end before and never had ANY gyno issues with it. I am even VERY gyno proned so Im sure it would be apparent in an individual such as myself. Stop wasting time and enjoy some nice pumps strength and killer sleep.

It was threads like these that caused me the concern:
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Any reccomendations to what I should run with it to be extra safe? I figured I'd ask you because you are gyno prone, like myself and wondering if you might know.

 

[poopypants]

I wouldnt run anything. I would think that just adding more compounds and more factors would lead you to be more likely to experience some kind of sides from them or the combination of the two or some sort of rebound... say from an AI or something.

Powerfull is supposed to have prolactin blocking effects at that so your covered on that front, if anything a small/occasional dose of an AI wouldnt be a bad idea, maybe formastane. Its been discussed lately alot that a couple time a week dose of an AI can actually be more effective then an every day dose and this is actually being studied and exploited by RPN's new formestane product comiong out.

Maybe just try it out solo at first and see how you do, I doubt youll have any problems. The folks in those threads are not always completely candid with their other supplementation while taking ppowerfull or what they took previously that could have had some prolonged after effects. There are multiple factors that could play a part here, not to mention every person who gets a lil puffy nips thinking they have gyno....