Epistane toxicity
- Thread starter jpk
- Start date
T-Bone
Banned
Yeah, well the point is people don't realize how dangerous Superdrol really is. Just because there are not that many documents doesn't mean things like what happended to me don't happen to others. Only some people document things like this....
Why do you think this happend?
Invalid Link Removed
Because SD is a dangerous drug. The SMART companies listend to the FDA!.
Why do you think this happend?
Invalid Link Removed
Because SD is a dangerous drug. The SMART companies listend to the FDA!.
poopypants
Banned
neoborn
Well-known member
I for one would like to see a balanced well thought out statement from you T-Bone rather than your regular "You will poop your liver if you touch anything stronger than a multivitamin".
Please guide me to this if you would be so kind, if you have already posted some balanced view.
I, like 80% of people here understand that steroids are NOT smarties and research / support supps are needed for a successful cycle.
What about IM Test? What are your views on that?
Please guide me to this if you would be so kind, if you have already posted some balanced view.
I, like 80% of people here understand that steroids are NOT smarties and research / support supps are needed for a successful cycle.
What about IM Test? What are your views on that?
LakeMountD
Doctor Science
I would have to agree with this. Ever since I began furthering my education in the medical field I have switched gears and really focused more on health. After looking at all the different blood tests from Superdrol and doing a little more research on it I have come to the conclusion that it is not a compound to be taken lightly. There are much better options out there that have a much lower instance of hyperlipidemia and abnormal liver values.
I have said this many times. Heart disease is the number one killer in America, over cancer and all the other diseases you can think of. If you don't keep cholesterol levels in check now you are just going to hurt yourself later on. Many users of these compounds have an invincible mindset and since they can't feel anything wrong they assume nothing is wrong. Trust me when I say you really don't want atherosclerosis to become a problem too early in life.
ReaperX
Well-known member
Nope, actually I had another mitigating health problem which caused my liver enzymes to be really high. I was quite sick during that duration.
It was pretty interesting b/c when my bloodwork came back for the first time it said on the paper like 2,000% outside of normal values. That was when I got it pulled in Oct '06.
I got it pulled again in Feb. '07 and it looked like that Hispanic kid's values (still elevated).
Then I got it pulled once more again in May '07 and everything checked out.
I got most recently bloodwork again in Feb '08. My liver enzymes were fine.
No, I don't do Superdrol at all. The toxicity is too high and not worth the risk. You really shouldn't be obesessing over your liver values.
People underestimate the affect it has on the cardiovascular system. The methyls alter gene expression in the liver causing the HDL/LDL ratios to shift.
I don't use designers at all. If I had to go with one, I'd pick Halo, but I don't use that stuff all together.
People underestimate the damage being done to their body via Superdrol.
There's nothing that remotely appeals to me out on the market since it is all methyls.
Cissus-drol is a nice and safe alternative I've been using. It has been good to me so far.
It was pretty interesting b/c when my bloodwork came back for the first time it said on the paper like 2,000% outside of normal values. That was when I got it pulled in Oct '06.
I got it pulled again in Feb. '07 and it looked like that Hispanic kid's values (still elevated).
Then I got it pulled once more again in May '07 and everything checked out.
I got most recently bloodwork again in Feb '08. My liver enzymes were fine.
No, I don't do Superdrol at all. The toxicity is too high and not worth the risk. You really shouldn't be obesessing over your liver values.
People underestimate the affect it has on the cardiovascular system. The methyls alter gene expression in the liver causing the HDL/LDL ratios to shift.
I don't use designers at all. If I had to go with one, I'd pick Halo, but I don't use that stuff all together.
People underestimate the damage being done to their body via Superdrol.
There's nothing that remotely appeals to me out on the market since it is all methyls.
Cissus-drol is a nice and safe alternative I've been using. It has been good to me so far.
T-Bone
Banned
Sorry Neo, it just sticks with me. I can't get it out my mind when I see all these threads about SD. IM Test would be out of this world if I had access to it. I just get flashbacks of remembering myself in my hospital bed feeling so bad I yelled at the nurses to give me drugs or kill me. I ended up in the crazy ward...Only because I couldn't stand the itchyness and pain anymore. I didn't want to live like that....
Really I don't mean to be one sided here, just something like this sticks with you...
Neo, I came very close to death for the first time in my life and sat there in my hospital bed wondering if it was all worth it. I spent tons of money of supplements and meticulousy followed a diet....Since then it has changed my life and other things are just more important than gaining muscle and working out. I'm much more health conscious now and less worried about strength and muscle mass. The risks of these products are just not worth the "rewards"....
TheNoid
Registered User
Hmmm, cant help but open my big mouth here but overall hepatoxicity of orals is vastly overrated.
Even drol at 200mg's ED for 16 weeks produced only slightly raised liver enzymes (paraphrasing a study I recently read so dont quote me on the accuracy of this....).
Now this is only my opinion on healthy individuals. Not those with predisposed to adverse health conditions when such agents are applied (sounds like T-bone's issue without reading his thread).
Now for a bro-telligence bomb. Assuming Havoc mg for mg = Epistane mg for mg (probably a big assumption but who knows, different debate for a different time) then I have ran Havoc on 3 different occasions with bloodwork.
1. Standard havoc solo (10/20/30/40). Bloodwork taken in week 3 produced normal liver enzyme results. Nolva in pct dosed 40/30/20/10. Clean diet.
2. Havoc dosed heavily (30/40/50/60/70/70-80....6 weeks total), stacked with some DHEA and Preg. Bloodwork taken in week 5 of pct indicated normal liver enzyme results. Nolva in pct dosed 20/10/10. Clean diet with moderate alcohol consumption (1x/week).
3. Havoc at the tail end of a Test (approx 500mg long ester) cycle. Superdrol clone kickstarted cycle for 3.5 weeks at 30mg/day. Then 1.5 weeks no orals followed by the Havoc at 50mg/day for an additional 3.5 weeks (total cycle length was 8.5-9 weeks).
For this third cycle:
-Bloodwork taken final week ON cycle
-Slightly elevated liver enzymes (nothing to be concerned about)
-Alcohol consumption DURING cycle was relatively heavy (2x/week at least 10 drinks on each occasion).
Overall (and I believe LMD previously alluded to this earlier in the thread) LIPIDS should be your main concern with these oral compounds.
Even drol at 200mg's ED for 16 weeks produced only slightly raised liver enzymes (paraphrasing a study I recently read so dont quote me on the accuracy of this....).
Now this is only my opinion on healthy individuals. Not those with predisposed to adverse health conditions when such agents are applied (sounds like T-bone's issue without reading his thread).
Now for a bro-telligence bomb. Assuming Havoc mg for mg = Epistane mg for mg (probably a big assumption but who knows, different debate for a different time) then I have ran Havoc on 3 different occasions with bloodwork.
1. Standard havoc solo (10/20/30/40). Bloodwork taken in week 3 produced normal liver enzyme results. Nolva in pct dosed 40/30/20/10. Clean diet.
2. Havoc dosed heavily (30/40/50/60/70/70-80....6 weeks total), stacked with some DHEA and Preg. Bloodwork taken in week 5 of pct indicated normal liver enzyme results. Nolva in pct dosed 20/10/10. Clean diet with moderate alcohol consumption (1x/week).
3. Havoc at the tail end of a Test (approx 500mg long ester) cycle. Superdrol clone kickstarted cycle for 3.5 weeks at 30mg/day. Then 1.5 weeks no orals followed by the Havoc at 50mg/day for an additional 3.5 weeks (total cycle length was 8.5-9 weeks).
For this third cycle:
-Bloodwork taken final week ON cycle
-Slightly elevated liver enzymes (nothing to be concerned about)
-Alcohol consumption DURING cycle was relatively heavy (2x/week at least 10 drinks on each occasion).
Overall (and I believe LMD previously alluded to this earlier in the thread) LIPIDS should be your main concern with these oral compounds.
pantera101
Banned
What can you do for your lipids?
TheNoid
Registered User
Support supps and diet, even meds to an extent. But as most know a compound like SD is a complete monster when it comes to lipids. Imho, Niacin is a must both ON and in PCT. SERM's are for the most party positive on lipids (however I wouldnt use a SERM on cycle, of course dependent on compounds used).
pantera101
Banned
So is niacin it?I have nolva and cycle support for upcomming m-drol cycle.I have never heard of support supps for lipids.I figured i would get a don't use again if lipids get too crazy.
LakeMountD
Doctor Science
Yeah I stated hyperlipidemia and how important it was to keep it under control. Remember guys you want normal niacin, do not get flush free. I know this is its own separate debate but it is the better option. If your lipids are currently off the charts I feel RYR is still another great option as well. A few people tried to flame me for this a while back stating that since RYR is a statin it isn't good to take for prolonged periods of time and can increase hepatoxicity. Look how many people take mega doses of Lipitor and other statins. I am not advocating taking RYR for months on end, but it can definitely help get numbers back in check if they are really high. Lastly, I invite you to read up on the writings of Linus Pauling. Whether you believe them or not they bring an interesting perspective to the mix.
pantera101
Banned
Thanks alot!I don't see why people don't ever talk about support supps for lipids,but they don't.It's always your liver, which will restore itself as long as it hasn't been pushed too far.It's good to hear red yeast rice too,cause thats in cycle support,a great supplement!Now all i need is some niacin.I guess you just take as directed during cycle and pct?
LakeMountD
Doctor Science
Yeah it is in Cycle Support because I created it lol. I got drilled for that by a select few on this board but people are starting to realize more and more that the real danger is hyperlipidemia.
poopypants
Banned
poseidon.... both CS and Poseidon should be staples front loading and through a cycles PCT for optimum health. This will also help one capitiliz on gains and the compound taken, when your body is working at its best it can give you the best possible results.
pantera101
Banned
Should you us the niacin too?Or just poseidon and CS?
TheNoid
Registered User
I agree with this 100%.
I believe Cycle support also has policosonol, which is another positive support supp for lipids.
Poseidon is a bit underdosed in terms of Niacin if I remember correctly. You can safely take 1-2g's/day. Myself I aim for around 1-1.5g's/day spread out (500mg's/dose).
pantera101
Banned
I just looked at poseidon and it looks like it has niacin in it.One guy said he experienced the niacin flush(NP needs to put ingredients and directions on their site.I have to go to BN to see whats in these things)So i guess i'll buy some poseidon tonight.
poopypants
Banned
poseidon has niacin in it. Along with a perfect blend of vitamins and minerals for optimum cellular hydration. I would think that this wuold go great with creatine too which is why I think they made swell too wich would be insane to have with something as simple as creatine mono.
LakeMountD
Doctor Science
The niacin flush isn't anything that is going to hurt you, but it is worth using if your lipid levels are high.
pantera101
Banned
I was just saying that since the guy experienced it,it must be in there.Since NP doesn't list ingredients,Idk.I'll prob go to their website to see ingredients,BN doesn't carry it.Would you recomend extra niacin with the poseidon?
maynehood171
Active member
Great follow-up guys...CS is a great product and glad to know more upon the lipid concern and about RYR and Niacin...will give that a go for next cycle...:thumbsup:
hardknock
Well-known member
LakeMount, in your time of doing research on any of the designers, have you or any of you guys, come across any of them that has been noted to raise CRP levels in the body? It seems through my readings that inflammation in the body from various reasons causes the CRP levels to rise. I understand that the inflammation can cause the inside of arteries to get rough, which allow for lipis, cholesterol, and calcium to "stick" to the walls. So forth and so on...
but, i' have researched and found that women who take hormone replacement drugs have higher levels of C-reactive proteins. So, I was also wondering about any of the designers.
but, i' have researched and found that women who take hormone replacement drugs have higher levels of C-reactive proteins. So, I was also wondering about any of the designers.
pantera101
Banned
Me too!If you look at my sig you'll see i found out just in time.The poseidon is a little pricey,like 40 bucks for 90 servings,but you take 3-6 a day.I'm just going to buy some niacin,it's like 3.50 a bottle.
maynehood171
Active member
Very nice! That's what you get for research :thumbsup:
...now lets go and teach some newb's...haha
SOLARUS
Member
while i agree hyperlipidemia is more detrimental long-term than hepatic stress, it is also transient...my LDL went from 185 late in a cycle of 1-ad/4-ad back to 123 6 months later. i augment this effect with an entirely whole-grain diet, and have for years.
personally i am not sure that hypertension isnt the preeminent detriment from aas use...i know it has been for me. hypertension actually damages your blood vessels i believe. too much cycling can do real long-term damage....and HBP is tougher to mitigate than the other factors (although if you're T-Bone, you cant do sh1t for the hepatoxicity of a 17aa!)
in reality, it's a very personal matter....T-Bone may get horrible liver problems and zero HBP or LDL increase from the same compound that my liver doesnt mind but gives me 160/110 BP (not permanently!) and cranks my LDL up 50 points...
poopypants
Banned
Why rely on either NP or BN?? why not just go to nimubsnutrition.com??? they most certainly show the labels on their own products.
pantera101
Banned
It's because these liver problems are rare.If you read about these things as much as you see gyno flare,possible gyno,gyno help and all that,the product would probabaly be pulled for lack of sells.I know supplement companies don't care about the consumer.But if liver failure were a common side affect,superdrol would of been pulled a long time ago,if it was even put out.I know AX discontinued it,but from my understanding all originals were discontinued cause of the threatening letters sent by the fda and the companies didn't want to fight a losing battle and risk their already succesful supp company.
neoborn
Well-known member
Do you drink? Do you eat large amounts of protein?
Obviously if I had liver failure I would be like "Woah don't touch this stuff guys, seriously!" but just because a person, some people have problems with a product doesn't write it off completely for everyone and also telling everyone "you will all diiiiiiiiiieeeeeee if you touch this stuff" is not a good way to go.
The learning curve that both you and T-Bone have experienced is good for you both. You have learned what is good for you personally and not good for you personally.
Advising people is also good. I think honestly you would get alot further with just sharing your stories without the scare tactics. Generally most people on here aren't stupid so if you present straight forward good info to them they will most likely make the best decision.
All in all some people could run M1T hardcore dosages and be fine while other people would be asking "is that liver on the floor yours" before they pass out. It is all dependent on how each of our bodies responds to certain drugs etc.
It is also a given that there are general rules to live by and some things generally are bad for everyones health, like drinking large amounts of draino(sorry I don't have a pubmed to prove it) is generally not good for your health or longevity.
Good points all in all ....just that the delivery isn't the greatest.
And now......back to Epistane which is a very mild product ...for most
neoborn
Well-known member
blackheart
New member
Your lab results are decidedly better information than then usual brotelligence; a sample size of one is still an issue, nonetheless it's useful, thanks.
ReaperX
Well-known member
neo-
I'm not actually using scare tactics. I'm just referring to the science behind it. The only other documented medical case other than Superdrol that I can think of off the top of my head is Lipokinetix by Syntrax. Which ironically enough was also blamed for liver failure.
Let's be real here, how many members here actually get pre/post bloodwork after their cycles ? Maybe 10% ? That's probably at best rounding upwards. Most people just take their stuff, and supporting supplements and pray for the best.
Also too a very moot argument is methyls and alcohol.
Methylated compounds are metabolized via cytochrome P450 (CYP) 3A4-catalyzed reactions, and to a lesser extent hydroxylated compounds.
Alcohol is metabolized primarily by the CYP2E1 enzyme and NOT 3A4.
Ok, so now that we've established that, it is like comparing apples to oranges. Or draino for that matter. I'm not exactly sure where that has any relevance.
As far as Epistane, what standard is being held to say that it is a 'mild' substance ? Is it multiple bloodworks being done that is enough to draw a substantial statistical conclusion ? There needs to be some standard that it is being compared to. Or is this just another 'brotellegence' comment ?
Hm, your right, that is subjective.
I don't mind what people do, I enjoy hearing the horror stories.
I do believe, however, that it is very irresponsible and wreckless to only tell 'half the truth'.
I'm not actually using scare tactics. I'm just referring to the science behind it. The only other documented medical case other than Superdrol that I can think of off the top of my head is Lipokinetix by Syntrax. Which ironically enough was also blamed for liver failure.
Let's be real here, how many members here actually get pre/post bloodwork after their cycles ? Maybe 10% ? That's probably at best rounding upwards. Most people just take their stuff, and supporting supplements and pray for the best.
Also too a very moot argument is methyls and alcohol.
Methylated compounds are metabolized via cytochrome P450 (CYP) 3A4-catalyzed reactions, and to a lesser extent hydroxylated compounds.
Alcohol is metabolized primarily by the CYP2E1 enzyme and NOT 3A4.
Ok, so now that we've established that, it is like comparing apples to oranges. Or draino for that matter. I'm not exactly sure where that has any relevance.
As far as Epistane, what standard is being held to say that it is a 'mild' substance ? Is it multiple bloodworks being done that is enough to draw a substantial statistical conclusion ? There needs to be some standard that it is being compared to. Or is this just another 'brotellegence' comment ?
Hm, your right, that is subjective.
I don't mind what people do, I enjoy hearing the horror stories.
I do believe, however, that it is very irresponsible and wreckless to only tell 'half the truth'.
maynehood171
Active member
Nice source!
Colden
Nimbus Nutrition Co-Founder
Make sure you are getting real niacin. Most niacin products don't use actual niacin. The niacin in Poseidon is real niacin and it also has a synergistic value because of the formula and the combination of electrolytes and b-vitamins (especially methycobalamin).
Mass_69
Well-known member
MacTech
Member
I don't know if PowerMan2000 is on these boards. Some of you I am sure may know him and he posted his blood tests results from an Epi pulse cycle on another board.
His liver and lipids were both in the normal range after the Epi pulse cycle. His HPTA was shutdown contrary to his thinking.
This is the only blood tests results I have seen from what I consider a trusting internet source.
maynehood171
Active member
Well I read through this thread and I just think that T-bone and ReaperX can preach their story all they want but no body will seriously care to an extent unless there is significant evidence of this or until it happens to the individual himself (figuring we're all men here). People are just going to keep popping them and reaping the benefits as there is more information on benefits than not (if one isn't cycling for a whole baseball season). We all know alcohol is bad for us in the short run with lethargy, dehydration, headaches, etc. and long term with possible liver failure, jaundice, etc. and yet people still do it regardless. Why though? Because people live for today and will do the worrying later!!!...Technically what benefits is there to alcohol besides? A night of fun?...now what benefits is there to steroids? getting bigger and if you still plain lift...you should be able to keep it...for however long. Honestly I would continue to do steroids compared to drinking alcohol as I feel there is just not enough evidence for me to conclude anything different...this is practically what I've done so I'll just see what happens whether be short term or long term...and live with it as many of us I think and will do IMO. Now I don't know about you guys but what would you guys rather have...a gut or abs?: :think:
I hope this doesn't turn into a b*tching match but just making a point that these "scare tactics" needs to be dropped unless you are an anti-steroid enthusiast trying to recruit...? I respect your guys' experiences and as people but when we are trying to say we're going to do it anyways and see how our bodies react to it...the repetitive horrid steroid proclamations are pointless...maybe bring in more than 2-5 people with bad experiences to the 40,000 in here and anywhere else like this forum community and maybe I'll consider...until then...carry on...
I hope this doesn't turn into a b*tching match but just making a point that these "scare tactics" needs to be dropped unless you are an anti-steroid enthusiast trying to recruit...? I respect your guys' experiences and as people but when we are trying to say we're going to do it anyways and see how our bodies react to it...the repetitive horrid steroid proclamations are pointless...maybe bring in more than 2-5 people with bad experiences to the 40,000 in here and anywhere else like this forum community and maybe I'll consider...until then...carry on...
ReaperX
Well-known member
I agree. Everyone in an adult and can make their own decisions. I don't have any problem with that. Good or bad it dosen't affect me.
I'm just curious how the overall conclusion of Epistane being 'mild' was determined. As opposed to what ? semi-mild ? moderate ? Severe ? Just totally subjective if you ask me.
In regards to alcohol, with the exception of actually killing yourself drinking, I don't recall seeing anyone who went out for beers for several weeks, then wound up with liver failure solely from alcohol, but you know, that's just me.
Sure chronic usage can lead to cirrhosis, but keeping all things relevant:
-4 weeks of beers
or
-4 weeks of Superdrol
hm. I wonder which is worse. :think:
p.s. Alcohol has been around much, much longer than Superdrol has.
I'm just curious how the overall conclusion of Epistane being 'mild' was determined. As opposed to what ? semi-mild ? moderate ? Severe ? Just totally subjective if you ask me.
In regards to alcohol, with the exception of actually killing yourself drinking, I don't recall seeing anyone who went out for beers for several weeks, then wound up with liver failure solely from alcohol, but you know, that's just me.
Sure chronic usage can lead to cirrhosis, but keeping all things relevant:
-4 weeks of beers
or
-4 weeks of Superdrol
hm. I wonder which is worse. :think:
p.s. Alcohol has been around much, much longer than Superdrol has.
ReaperX
Well-known member
If people don't care to take care of themselves, why should I ? We are all adults here.
MacTech
Member
Beer
maynehood171
Active member
Come on now you know compounds affect us differently. I drink water and pop ibuprofen before I go to bed after drinking to combat the next day effects and to recover quicker. If I was to drink for 4 weeks I'd be on support supps just like I would steroids. I actually take support supps being on for 2-3 months, off for few months...I'm sure it helps with drinking, steroids and whatever else I'm negatively doing to my body. If you were to do steroids for one day would you worry about taking support supps much if you were to drink for one day/night? Do HDL levels drop to single digits from one day of SD use? Two days? I bet if people were cycling beer (drinking all day everyday) for 3-4 weeks we would be following the same necessary protocol as we would steroids...and notice that SOMETHING in our bodies would drop or raise due to chronic drinking as I'm sure alcoholics experience but they don't get bloodwork done to show us anything unless they turn yellow...or something indicative of a problem
pantera101
Banned
Exactly what i have done!I used to drink every day and get straight up drunk,even by myself.I basically quit a while before using a dsigner.I will still drink,but i haven't since thanksgiving.
I understand you are taking a risk with a new drug,but i'm willing to risk it.Exactly for the same reason i don't gamble or play the lottery.I have used a super/phera combo before and didn't have any problems.I didn't get blood work,but i didn't have yellow eyes or other symptoms.I also didn't use milk thistle.Now i'm pre loading a liver support supplement with higher than reccomended doses and will use cycle support.I'm honestly not worried at all.I have decided to stick with 10 mg's atleast for the first two weeks and hopefully all three.
T-Bone
Banned
I don't remember what my bad cholesterol reading was, but the good cholesterol was listed as "Too low to measure".
T-Bone
Banned