"dont tell the kids!" new steroid study
- Thread starter billm311
- Start date
dedication24
New member
cliff notes pls?
billm311
Member
In trials for male contraception using
testosterone enanthate, only 65% of Caucasian men become
azoospermic (9, 10) This testosterone enanthate-induced
azoospermia is fully reversible with a mean time to recovery
of 3.7 months. Anabolic steroid abuse in excessively high
doses by bodybuilders leads to severely impaired sperm
concentrations, but even after prolonged use, sperm production
may return to normal (7). These findings show that
suppression of spermatogenesis by androgens is fully reversible,and make it most likely that this is also the case in
the treated men.
testosterone treatment, normalize
within 6 weeks after treatment. Only a subgroup of cases
showed a transitory hypersecretion of LH and FSH; moreover,
values in the normal range are found after 12-27
months. Thus, Brgmswig et al. (23) could not find any major
functional alteration of the hypothalamo-pituitary-gonadal
axis.
the view that variocele and maldescended testes and not testosterone treatment
caused the lower semen quality in the
tall men is corroborated by comparison of the tall men and
controls without these conditions. When these selected subgroups
were compared, the differences in semen variables
and hormones disappeared.
Finally, if previous testosterone treatment were of influence
on testicular function, a dose dependence of the effects
might be expected. However, when we calculated the total
dose of testosterone each tall man had received earlier, no
correlation with semen variables could be detected. This is
another indication that previous testosterone exposure does
not cause permanent impairment of testicular function.We conclude that high-dose testosterone treatment at puberty
for tall stature does not impair testicular function on a
long-term basis. Slightly decreased semen variables in the tall
men compared with a control group from the general population
may be caused by coexisting conditions such as varicoceles
and/or maldescended testes. Although there may be
objections against this type of treatment, these findings of a
long-term follow-up provide no argument against high-dose
testosterone treatment in boys with expected excessive
growth. The results also have far-reaching implications for
other uses of testosterone in normal men, e.g. for hormonal
contraception based on testosterone. However, it should be
kept in mind that we only investigated the effects of natural
testosterone (in form of its enanthate ester), and that the
effects of synthetic or modified androgens may be different.
:twisted::thumbsup:
testosterone enanthate, only 65% of Caucasian men become
azoospermic (9, 10) This testosterone enanthate-induced
azoospermia is fully reversible with a mean time to recovery
of 3.7 months. Anabolic steroid abuse in excessively high
doses by bodybuilders leads to severely impaired sperm
concentrations, but even after prolonged use, sperm production
may return to normal (7). These findings show that
suppression of spermatogenesis by androgens is fully reversible,and make it most likely that this is also the case in
the treated men.
testosterone treatment, normalize
within 6 weeks after treatment. Only a subgroup of cases
showed a transitory hypersecretion of LH and FSH; moreover,
values in the normal range are found after 12-27
months. Thus, Brgmswig et al. (23) could not find any major
functional alteration of the hypothalamo-pituitary-gonadal
axis.
the view that variocele and maldescended testes and not testosterone treatment
caused the lower semen quality in the
tall men is corroborated by comparison of the tall men and
controls without these conditions. When these selected subgroups
were compared, the differences in semen variables
and hormones disappeared.
Finally, if previous testosterone treatment were of influence
on testicular function, a dose dependence of the effects
might be expected. However, when we calculated the total
dose of testosterone each tall man had received earlier, no
correlation with semen variables could be detected. This is
another indication that previous testosterone exposure does
not cause permanent impairment of testicular function.We conclude that high-dose testosterone treatment at puberty
for tall stature does not impair testicular function on a
long-term basis. Slightly decreased semen variables in the tall
men compared with a control group from the general population
may be caused by coexisting conditions such as varicoceles
and/or maldescended testes. Although there may be
objections against this type of treatment, these findings of a
long-term follow-up provide no argument against high-dose
testosterone treatment in boys with expected excessive
growth. The results also have far-reaching implications for
other uses of testosterone in normal men, e.g. for hormonal
contraception based on testosterone. However, it should be
kept in mind that we only investigated the effects of natural
testosterone (in form of its enanthate ester), and that the
effects of synthetic or modified androgens may be different.
:twisted::thumbsup:
Gutterpump
Banned
So there are no real threats of going permanently sterile. Interesting.
I also think that with HCG + HMG therapy, you can get those sperm a swimmin once again. HMG stimulates FSH (producing sperm) and upregulates leydig cells, which then get stimulated by HCG, releasing LH and producing more testosterone. I think this is the normal course for male fertilization treatment for someone on TRT/HRT aiming for children.
I also think that with HCG + HMG therapy, you can get those sperm a swimmin once again. HMG stimulates FSH (producing sperm) and upregulates leydig cells, which then get stimulated by HCG, releasing LH and producing more testosterone. I think this is the normal course for male fertilization treatment for someone on TRT/HRT aiming for children.
billm311
Member
the study was done to study effects of testosterone treatment in teens as a way of reducing height.
The study group ended up about 6 cm shorter (average) than projected. these peeps were in 6'6'' range, so they dwarf me anyways. study collected other data, including semen tests, homone tests, recovery, etc.
this was, if I recall, over ten years?
the results were interesting to say the least. nothing extremely groundbreaking, but shows that safe cycling will not destroy your body.
The study group ended up about 6 cm shorter (average) than projected. these peeps were in 6'6'' range, so they dwarf me anyways. study collected other data, including semen tests, homone tests, recovery, etc.
this was, if I recall, over ten years?
the results were interesting to say the least. nothing extremely groundbreaking, but shows that safe cycling will not destroy your body.
billm311
Member
this is what I gather from it as well. The study did show reduced sperm count, and we know from previous knowledge that test will reduce sperm production, FSH, and LH. What you have outlined sounds right.
Now I am no doctor, but I would not take this information, construe it, and go on a crazy cycle and think everything is going to come out straight. Be safe brothers.
MuscleGuyinNY
Banned
This is a very interesting article. Quite informative. So, thank you.
billm311
Member
poopypants
Banned
i just wanted to quote this again and make the point to others reading this that it was only done with TEST and this doesnt mean you can take an indefinate oral cycle or even non stop tren or deca or the like and get away with no permanent effects or possible permanent shutdown..... other then that quite an informative read and makes me want to run test all the more... why cant they make it orally bioavailable damnit!?!?!?
pudzian2
Banned
I think this is a topic that should be discussed more. Especially the PREVENTION aspect. People reading this are concerned with the effect of their RESPONSIBLE steroid use/cycling and the possibility of low to non existent sperm count. I think the current attitude is that while ON we just accept that fact that our sperm production down regulates or near shuts down. The more hormonal changes that take place stands to reason that there is a greater chance of things not returning to normal. An example is the use of HCG ON cycle and its good job at making a smoother cycle and a smoother recovery. However using HCG alone doesnt fully cover the angle of sperm production management. This is where HMG comes in. I am not overly familiar with HMG nor how to use it, But i understand it is to FSH as HCG is to LH. so....I would be curious to hear more about how good a job it does at stimulating sperm production while using gear. If we take a better stab at prevention we'll have less to worry about and less to do later....
billm311
Member
I too am not very familiar with hMG, but tried doing some searches on it. Same journal turned up this older study from 93.
Invalid Link Removed
didnt have time to read whole article, but according to abstract, 24 month tests were done using hcg+hmg vs FSH+test to induce spermatogenesis.
results showed FSH and exogenous T are not able to induce spermatogenesis, however, the study group administered hcg+hmg did induce spermatogenesis with normal motility and quality.
Invalid Link Removed
didnt have time to read whole article, but according to abstract, 24 month tests were done using hcg+hmg vs FSH+test to induce spermatogenesis.
results showed FSH and exogenous T are not able to induce spermatogenesis, however, the study group administered hcg+hmg did induce spermatogenesis with normal motility and quality.
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billm311
Member
just to clear up some basics for those tuning in:
hMG contains natural FSH and LH, purified from urine from postmenopausal women. (After menopause, women produce high levels of gonadotropins, which are excreted in their urine.)
In men with low testosterone and FSH, LH stimulates the production of testosterone, and FSH promotes the formation of sperm. If a semen analysis, LH, and FSH testing suggest that abnormal hormone levels are preventing sperm production, these gonadotropins may be prescribed to promote sperm formation.
Men may experience temporary breast enlargement.
when used for women as fertility drugs, Up to 35% of women who become pregnant after hMG/hCG or rFSH/hCG therapy have a miscarriage. This is higher than the risk of miscarriage in the general population.
looking on pubmed for more
hMG contains natural FSH and LH, purified from urine from postmenopausal women. (After menopause, women produce high levels of gonadotropins, which are excreted in their urine.)
In men with low testosterone and FSH, LH stimulates the production of testosterone, and FSH promotes the formation of sperm. If a semen analysis, LH, and FSH testing suggest that abnormal hormone levels are preventing sperm production, these gonadotropins may be prescribed to promote sperm formation.
Men may experience temporary breast enlargement.
when used for women as fertility drugs, Up to 35% of women who become pregnant after hMG/hCG or rFSH/hCG therapy have a miscarriage. This is higher than the risk of miscarriage in the general population.
looking on pubmed for more
billm311
Member
heres more, i cut them down to make easier to read:
seeing a pattern?
there are a lot more, but my eyes hurt.
seems like when used together they work well. Not 100%, and not right away, but the studies are all done with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism patients. Some studies showed more promise than others. This might be a good way for those that have access to help PREVENT problems with spermatogenesis?
seeing a pattern?
there are a lot more, but my eyes hurt.
seems like when used together they work well. Not 100%, and not right away, but the studies are all done with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism patients. Some studies showed more promise than others. This might be a good way for those that have access to help PREVENT problems with spermatogenesis?
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pudzian2
Banned
thats great info man! yea i hope it does an even better job at prevention as it does at trying to fix the issue in men with a long term pre existing problem such as hypgonadism....
billm311
Member
None of the studies had used it for that exact purpose, I guess these universities aren't conducting studies so that us juicers can live better lives, but, from the existing evidence, and trust me there were a lot more studies and they all showed when combined they work.
So I would be lead to think that if my natural production of gonadotrophins were suppressed by a testosterone based steriod cycle, hMG+hcg would be a good tool to aid in the fight to normalize my endrocrine system.
Until we can see more anectdotal evidence for this specific purpose, it remains theoretical, but has backing as to it efficacy.
I havent heard of too many people using it, and maybe its harder to source, but if you have a kickass doctor, it would probable be a solid addition to your safe cycling practice.
HARDtotheCORE
Member
Yes, but how does this translate to real world gains and body composition?? I mean, i see juicers every day who are off juice w/ no PCT, and in all honesty dont lose all that much... and we all know that their body is in a hormonal wreck. If an individual were to use HCG/nolva etc. in a proper pct... I dont see the possible slight decrease in endogenous production as really making a difference physique-wise. What do ya'all think? - HTTC
MuscleGuyinNY
Banned
Dually noted.
bioman
Well-known member
More or less true in my opinion. PCT is going to help retain a few of those pounds gained during a cycle. I think the bigger reason to use it is to try to offset some of the long term damage that can occur to the hormonal environment..ie prevent severe hypogonadism..but also to prevent the sort of hormonal environment that is conducive to gynecomastia.
Either way, with PCT or without I'm fairly convinced that you are sacrificing normal hormonal function for having muscles. PCT just tries to tip the balance a little more in our favor.
pudzian2
Banned
yea i think some people can go a bit overboard on PCT, however it is in their right to do so...I mean if doing it correctly anything extra may help (or rather not hurt) but may also not be NECESSARY.
as for the HCG/HMG I may try to look into it more and see if I can get my doc to hook me up with some. That is If I decide its worth my while to use while ON. I have to check into some of those other studies....