Best stack during PCT?

[ftchef]

Nearing last two weeks of Epi pulse cycle, and wondering if anyone has ideas with backup for a good stack during PCT.
I will be using POst Cycle Support, 6-Oxo, and some trib at the end of PCT, and either Lean Xtreme, or Retain2 if I go AX.
My planned stack was the AX HyperdrolX2 and Massfx.
Any better ideas and why for a stack?
I want to keep the gains that I have made and build on them.
Thanks.

 

[zpnq]

I'd drop the 6-oxo and run the HDx2 and Mass fx.

 

[jomi822]

Nearing last two weeks of Epi pulse cycle, and wondering if anyone has ideas with backup for a good stack during post cycle therapy.
I will be using POst Cycle Support, 6-Oxo, and some trib at the end of PCT, and either Lean Xtreme, or Retain2 if I go AX.
My planned stack was the AX HyperdrolX2 and Massfx.
Any better ideas and why for a stack?
I want to keep the gains that I have made and build on them.
Thanks.

if you use post cycle support and 6-oxo expect to lose all your gains and not recover properly at all.

get a serm or dont use steroids.

 

[zpnq]

if you use post cycle support and 6-oxo expect to lose all your gains and not recover properly at all.

get a serm or dont use steroids.

We aren't all as hardcore with our cycles as you champ . An epistane pulsing cycle is as mild as it gets, i have one week of a 6 week pulse left and there is no signs of shutdown what so ever. I'll be getting bloods done as soon as the cycle is over to be sure.
Advising a SERM in this case is just total over kill and will bring about more issues than the actual cycle.

 

[jomi822]

We aren't all as hardcore with our cycles as you champ . An epistane pulsing cycle is as mild as it gets, i have one week of a 6 week pulse left and there is no signs of shutdown what so ever. I'll be getting bloods done as soon as the cycle is over to be sure.
Advising a SERM in this case is just total over kill and will bring about more issues than the actual cycle.

i disagree.

 

[SoulofIceman]

I disagree as well, even if you do a ph you should still look at doing a good serm. Regardless if there straight up roids or not, protect your body and don't take any chances:bruce3:

 

[jomi822]

We aren't all as hardcore with our cycles as you champ . An epistane pulsing cycle is as mild as it gets, i have one week of a 6 week pulse left and there is no signs of shutdown what so ever. I'll be getting bloods done as soon as the cycle is over to be sure.
Advising a SERM in this case is just total over kill and will bring about more issues than the actual cycle.

and you know 6-oxo bind to the AR as well as aromatase right? perhaps you could tell me what that means?

 

[MentalTwitch]

I went all out for my first post cycle therapy.
Diesel Test Hardcore
Retain 2
6-oxo
PCS by AI
Torem
I loved it although i wqas involved witht the MDrol situation, it is also what Im runnin for my Hdrol, but the Torem alot less.

Also, Anytime you use a produc/Anabolic/PH that is replacing your natural test production and replacing it then you are gettin shutdown. IT doesn matter if it shows or not. Now if you "cant tell" then you may just take 4 week+ to fully recover after a cycle. I believe eventually, you will fully recover. People run PCT to get their body back on tracka bit quicker. Epistane is hype alot to have SERM like effects. Well it also was found to have Tren(or its prescuoror somehting) in it. So, why not just be safe and run a "protocal" PCT?

On the other hand, i htink that sometimes yes people are very very hung up on SERMs in PCT but i do it casue once the breat tissue begins or your body sufferes longer it only makes thing worse.

 

[z28man]

I think a good compromise would be to run everything you've planned so far except for the 6oxo and a low dose of a serm. Im doing a 2 week blitz of superdrol and Ill be using some resveratrol, drive, HGW, and some other test boosting what nots but will run a conservative dose of nolva just to be safe for 3-4 weeks.

 

[zpnq]

and you know 6-oxo bind to the AR as well as aromatase right? perhaps you could tell me what that means?

What does 6-oxo binding to the AR have to do with me thinking a SERM is not needed for a pulsing cycle of Epistane?
I don't recommend 6-oxo for a post cycle therapy, Infact with the options the OP gave i said to drop the 6-oxo. I would think that PCS or Derma Sust combined with I3C should do the trick.

I am on the tail end of a stand alone epistane pulsing cycle.
Have you experienced a stand alone pulsing cycle of epistane?
A SERM for a stand alone pulsing cycle of epistane, to me is over kill. Its my opinion . When i get my blood test back i'll be able to see for real . If you would like i will post the results on leanbulk. I will be getting bloods directly after my pulse cycle and will be using a trans-res product for PCT not sure which one yet or for how long- how long depends on my bloodwork i suppose). I have Derma Sust and PCS here.

Pulsing is designed to alleviate the sides associated with Pro hormones. If it was a pulsing stack of 2 methyls one being something like M1t or superdrol then i would consider a SERM being needed.

Lets see how my blood work looks .

I have a harsher cycle planned out and will be running it in a few months time. This time i will be attempting an OTC PCT again (assuming my blood work from the pulsing turns ok). I have some torem here as a back up, i jumped the gun a bit getting that. Its not the best choice i have leaned since. It'll all be in my log.

I said don't hate me jomi .

 

[z28man]

What does 6-oxo binding to the AR have to do with me thinking a SERM is not needed for a pulsing cycle of Epistane?
I don't recommend 6-oxo for a post cycle therapy, Infact with the options the OP gave i said to drop the 6-oxo. I would think that PCS or Derma Sust combined with I3C should do the trick.

I am on the tail end of a stand alone epistane pulsing cycle.
Have you experienced a stand alone pulsing cycle of epistane?
A SERM for a stand alone pulsing cycle of epistane, to me is over kill. Its my opinion . When i get my blood test back i'll be able to see for real . If you would like i will post the results on leanbulk. I will be getting bloods directly after my pulse cycle and will be using a trans-res product for post cycle therapy not sure which one yet or for how long- how long depends on my bloodwork i suppose). I have Derma Sust and PCS here.

Pulsing is designed to alleviate the sides associated with Pro hormones. If it was a pulsing stack of 2 methyls one being something like M1t or superdrol then i would consider a SERM being needed.

Lets see how my blood work looks .

I have a harsher cycle planned out and will be running it in a few months time. This time i will be attempting an OTC PCT again (assuming my blood work from the pulsing turns ok). I have some torem here as a back up, i jumped the gun a bit getting that. Its not the best choice i have leaned since. It'll all be in my log.

I said don't hate me jomi .

Maybe Im just out of the loop but I thought torem was the best serm out there. What have you found stating otherwise and what serm would be better?

 

[littlemack]

if you use post cycle support and 6-oxo expect to lose all your gains and not recover properly at all.

get a serm or dont use steroids.

I have to disagree as well... far be it for me to come voicing my opinions...lol...

I know you guys are trying to watch out for these young kids and really pushing SERMS to everyone...but I've never had trouble recovering from a Prohormone or AAS cycle without a SERM. Peroid. 4-6 weeks off an 8 or 12 week cycle and I've always recovered just fine. Keeping it on hand for the risk of gyno I would advise...I've always been fortunate in that department. There are also a LOT of veterans who think you should recover naturally. Some of these SERMS are harder on your body than the Gear itself. Your going to crash regardless...the SERMS only help soften the fall...
Now I know you guys are going to jump down my throat for saying all of that stuff... lol... its just my opinion from my own experience and from talking to guys who've been at this 15-30years. I've got friends who haven't come off gear for 10+ years. Most of these guys bridge into HRT at some point and are on test for life...lol

And you guys who are using Methyl's for 4-8 weeks please don't use tamoxifen (Nolvadex) which is also harsh on the liver and a carcinogen. Oddly, I've seen a few people on this board include that in their PCT.

 

[zpnq]

Maybe Im just out of the loop but I thought torem was the best serm out there. What have you found stating otherwise and what serm would be better?

I am no expert on SERM's but i have heard from a very reliable source that Toremifene is one of the least effective SERM's at restoring shutdown.

 

[zpnq]

Maybe Im just out of the loop but I thought torem was the best serm out there. What have you found stating otherwise and what serm would be better?

I am no expert on SERM's but i have heard from a very reliable source that Toremifene is one of the least effective SERM's at restoring shutdown.

 

[ImJ2x]

I am no expert on SERM's but i have heard from a very reliable source that Toremifene is one of the least effective SERM's at restoring shutdown.

I think you're referring to dinoiii (Dr Dana something). He says Torem sucks for HPTA recovery. But I gotta tell you -- all the anecdotal evidence I've seen is very supportive of Torem for this use. In other words, all the guys who've actually used Torem say it brought "the boys" back pronto. They love it. But I certainly may have missed something. Does anyone know of someone who used Torem but didn't like it?

 

[ImJ2x]

Also, (and I'm definitely no expert on this either, but) isn't Trans-Resveratrol supposed to work similarly to a SERM? For an Epi pulse, PCS may be sufficient, as far as SERMs are needed. That's really why they made it.

 

[dinoiii]

I think you're referring to dinoiii (Dr Dana something). He says Torem sucks for HPTA recovery. But I gotta tell you -- all the anecdotal evidence I've seen is very supportive of Torem for this use. In other words, all the guys who've actually used Torem say it brought "the boys" back pronto. They love it. But I certainly may have missed something. Does anyone know of someone who used Torem but didn't like it?

Yes, the guys that used it also didn't have lab work I assure you (the anecdotal "evidence").

One thing you must understand when SERMs were compared with placebo, the propensity for them to work better than the essential watchful waiting protocol employed by most doctors was slim if at all relevant.

This is not to assume I wouldn't suggest use in certain circumstances. Still, there wasn't one person who actually inquired with the OP how long the intentioned cycle would be (nearing the last two weeks of how long).


D_

 

[zpnq]

Nearing last two weeks of Epi pulse cycle, and wondering if anyone has ideas with backup for a good stack during post cycle therapy.
I will be using POst Cycle Support, 6-Oxo, and some trib at the end of PCT, and either Lean Xtreme, or Retain2 if I go AX.
My planned stack was the AX HyperdrolX2 and Massfx.
Any better ideas and why for a stack?
I want to keep the gains that I have made and build on them.
Thanks.

How long was your cycle?

 

[jomi822]

I have to disagree as well... far be it for me to come voicing my opinions...lol...

I know you guys are trying to watch out for these young kids and really pushing SERMS to everyone...but I've never had trouble recovering from a Prohormone or anabolic steroids cycle without a SERM. Peroid. 4-6 weeks off an 8 or 12 week cycle and I've always recovered just fine. Keeping it on hand for the risk of gyno I would advise...I've always been fortunate in that department. There are also a LOT of veterans who think you should recover naturally. Some of these SERMS are harder on your body than the Gear itself. Your going to crash regardless...the SERMS only help soften the fall...
Now I know you guys are going to jump down my throat for saying all of that stuff... lol... its just my opinion from my own experience and from talking to guys who've been at this 15-30years. I've got friends who haven't come off gear for 10+ years. Most of these guys bridge into HRT at some point and are on test for life...lol

And you guys who are using Methyl's for 4-8 weeks please don't use tamoxifen (Nolvadex) which is also harsh on the liver and a carcinogen. Oddly, I've seen a few people on this board include that in their post cycle therapy.

never had trouble recovering? did you get blood tests done? saying you have no trouble recovering is extremely subjective.

what exactly would you recommend for the people that are on 4-8 week cycles of pro hormones if not tamoxifen...which is a carcinogen if used for years and years and years....

rebound xt?

 

[jomi822]

What does 6-oxo binding to the AR have to do with me thinking a SERM is not needed for a pulsing cycle of Epistane?

that is another question. ill answer it once you answer mine. what is the significance of 6-oxo's main ingredient binding to the AR. its fine to say you dont know, which you dont, in which case why dont you leave post cycle therapy recommendations to those that do.

Pulsing is designed to alleviate the sides associated with Pro hormones. If it was a pulsing stack of 2 methyls one being something like M1t or superdrol then i would consider a SERM being needed.

yes ive actually commented on many pulsing threads. i dont support the idea of pulsing, especially without an injectable counterpart that maintains a STABLE hormone level.

Lets see how my blood work looks .

indeed, lets take a gander at it. ive read at least 30 failed PCT threads in the past year or so where people used only OTC post cycle therapy products. And i have read only one thread where someone actually recovered using only OTC post cycle therapy products.

 

[zpnq]

that is another question. ill answer it once you answer mine. what is the significance of 6-oxo's main ingredient binding to the AR. its fine to say you dont know, which you dont, in which case why dont you leave post cycle therapy recommendations to those that do.

If it does bind the the AR (which i was unaware if it did) Then it would compete with natural hormones for the position, thats obviously something you don't what. If it is androgenic (It shouldn't be) then it will inhibit your natural hormones production through negative feed back.

Now what is the reason you ask about 6-oxo? I don't Use 6-oxo, i wasn't advising the use of 6-oxo, i don't care about 6-oxo and its binding affinity to the AR. Because i don't use it.

I advised 6-bromo over 6-oxo. I will admit i am not an expert at this , but i am how ever researching OTC post cycle therapy. I was just letting the OP know what i would do with the options he gives.

indeed, lets take a gander at it. ive read at least 30 failed post cycle therapy threads in the past year or so where people used only OTC post cycle therapy products. And i have read only one thread where someone actually recovered using only OTC post cycle therapy products.

Of these failed post cycle therapy threads how many used I3C and trans-res after a mild pulsing cycle?

PCS is designed for this express purpose.


The Doc is correct in no one here ask how long the cycle was, if it was 12 weeks then a SERM would be a better option (but you never asked how long the cycle was and jumped in with SERM). If the cycle was 4 weeks, 3 x week at 30-40mg then a SERM is in my opinion overkill (but i never asked how long the cycle was either).

If you don't advocate Pulsing and have no experience with it then how can your advice be any better than mine? I am on the tail end of a pulse, sure you cannot tell if there is shutdown without blood tests, but i can tell you there is no change in my libido, testicle size or anything balls and sex at all. The blood tests will tell the story, one before post cycle and one after.

Its obvious we will never come to an agreement over this so lets agree to disagree for now. If i fail then i will humbly apologize and accept my faults, will do the same if i succeed?

In the mean time i will try to comment less on things i have little experience in. Although i am running a pulsing cycle of epistane like the OP, i have not run a post cycle OTC yet. All i have to go buy are the blood tests i came across in the giant pulsing thread They were clean and nice with no post cycle what so ever, and from high reputation people :0. (and of course my experience so far).

Kind regards,

zpnq

Edit: In Australia, we have a Medicare system that gives free medical to everyone :0. So my blood test are... free. i go down get a piece of paper take it to the clinic when im ready and get the tests done. So i'll be getting bloods all the time

 

[pistonpump]

zpnq, why dont you post blood tests on this forum? We need more blood tests results. It would be interesting to follow. If you are getting free blood tests, why not do one each week and document findings for further research?

 

[zpnq]

zpnq, why dont you post blood tests on this forum? We need more blood tests results. It would be interesting to follow. If you are getting free blood tests, why not do one each week and document findings for further research?

I have to fast for 14 hours before a blood test, and there is up to an hour wait at the clinic. There is also a scaling effect to the governments medicare. They cover all costs at some doctors (doctors can charge more if they like and you pay the "gap" between the subsidised money what is charged) Don't go to the Doctors that have a gap to pay . After a a certain amount of money the government doesn't cover all cost just a % of cost, each visit after that the % gets smaller. If i go crazy on blood tests i'll start having to pay a bit of money my self.
The funding will cover me for blood tests before and after cycles, without a worry. The Funding comes from tax we pay.

I am not %100 sure thats how it works so dont quote me on it . I have never been to the doctor enough to deplete the funding from my tax.

I'll post the results here as well, but for my up coming cycle i will only log it at lean, maybe post the bloods here as well.

 

[Jstrong20]

I have to disagree as well... far be it for me to come voicing my opinions...lol...

I know you guys are trying to watch out for these young kids and really pushing SERMS to everyone...but I've never had trouble recovering from a Prohormone or anabolic steroids cycle without a SERM. Peroid. 4-6 weeks off an 8 or 12 week cycle and I've always recovered just fine. Keeping it on hand for the risk of gyno I would advise...I've always been fortunate in that department. There are also a LOT of veterans who think you should recover naturally. Some of these SERMS are harder on your body than the Gear itself. Your going to crash regardless...the SERMS only help soften the fall...
Now I know you guys are going to jump down my throat for saying all of that stuff... lol... its just my opinion from my own experience and from talking to guys who've been at this 15-30years. I've got friends who haven't come off gear for 10+ years. Most of these guys bridge into HRT at some point and are on test for life...lol

And you guys who are using Methyl's for 4-8 weeks please don't use tamoxifen (Nolvadex) which is also harsh on the liver and a carcinogen. Oddly, I've seen a few people on this board include that in their post cycle therapy.

I also don't use serms.

 

[zpnq]

which you dont, in which case why dont you leave post cycle therapy recommendations to those that do.

So rude, so judging and mistaken. You presume to have knowledge of my knowledge? which you dont, in which case why dont you leave your recommendations to those that do.

Care to answer me?

What does 6-oxo binding to the AR have to do with me thinking a SERM is not needed for a pulsing cycle of Epistane?

was it just jomi's little test?, does everyone have to jump through jomi's hoops and pass his tests? :/

Of these failed post cycle therapy threads how many used I3C and trans-res after a mild pulsing cycle?

If you don't advocate Pulsing and have no experience with it then how can your advice be any better than mine?

:FUfinger:

 

[Musclefever]

if you use post cycle support and 6-oxo expect to lose all your gains and not recover properly at all.

get a serm or dont use steroids.

disagree you do not need a serm for epi or havoc
i will bas my pct on atd 75-50-50-25-25 plus pcs or a test booster

 

[jomi822]

let the games begin

bloodwork please

 

[zpnq]

let the games begin

bloodwork please

Now hold on a second, you were going to answer my questions !!

So does 6-oxo bind to the AR? This interests me, as it would do the opposite of what the goal is .

 

[TheAnimalG]

Now hold on a second, you were going to answer my questions !!

So does 6-oxo bind to the AR? This interests me, as it would do the opposite of what the goal is .

From the studies I read (which I found using Google), it is believed that 6-oxo competes with Testosterone for the androgen receptors because persons that take it as a standalone supplement do not gain any additional muscle mass over those taking placebo.

As for the "goal" of 6-oxo, it is not to make you bigger, but to increase your natural production of testosterone, which it appears to do. However, one study I read did mention the possibility that it is causing a false positive reading for increased testosterone because the molecule of androstenetrione is so similar to testosterone.

Also, I second the others: post your bloodwork after your cycle. Even if it shows low test and shutdown, I won't hold it against you.... I think it would be good for all other to know.

 

[Hank Vangut]

i see too many stories like this one below.
it would suck to have to take steroids just to be normal.

i know this is off topic, but i need some advice from experienced people not my ignorant doctors. My test levels came back very low 59 total. My doctor put me on test cyp. for 8 weeks and told me to taper off for week 9 and 10. I think ill be right where i am now shortly after my last shot. My condition is because i was ignorant and never ran post cycle therapy, ever. Ive been on and off cycle for about 5 years and never even looked into hcg, clomid or anything to restore my levels. Stupid i know but its to late now, i ordered some hcg today, my question is how do u think i should take the hcg or if its too late for me

 

[neverstop]

i fail to see the how much worse taking some Tor for a few weeks would really be than all this 6oxo stuff and epi ??

tor works, i dont know about all that other stuff, but if you want to guarantee you'll be back to normal quickly, then use tor. i have noticed no side effects from it.

 

[zpnq]

From the studies I read (which I found using Google), it is believed that 6-oxo competes with Testosterone for the androgen receptors because persons that take it as a standalone supplement do not gain any additional muscle mass over those taking placebo.

As for the "goal" of 6-oxo, it is not to make you bigger, but to increase your natural production of testosterone, which it appears to do. However, one study I read did mention the possibility that it is causing a false positive reading for increased testosterone because the molecule of androstenetrione is so similar to testosterone.

Also, I second the others: post your bloodwork after your cycle. Even if it shows low test and shutdown, I won't hold it against you.... I think it would be good for all other to know.

Technically the goal of 6-oxo is to inhibit Aromatase, there by decreasing estrogen. The resulting rise in test is a side effect of Inhibiting Aromatase. I didn't mean to sound like 6-oxo was meant to make you big . Suppression is not something you want from an AI though. <-- should have said that.

When i asked Patrick A. if 6-oxo binds to the AR this is what he said. We know where is loyalties lay so this may not mean allot.

It has no intrinsic anabolic/androgenic activity as measured by Herschberger assay

this in conjunction with the fact that it is a 17-ketosteroid make it likely it has negligible binding affinity.

Of course it will show low test and shutdown , I just took a mild steroid, but that said, i will be attempting an OTC PCT. Its the blood tests after the PCT(i will running for 8 weeks) that will tell the story.

 

[ftchef]

wow...a lot of reading and sifting to do here.
Thanks for all the responses. I am 1 1/2 weeks from ending a 6 week cycle. The past 3.5 weeks have been at 40mg 3 times per week. PERCEIVED shutdown is minimal to none, no size difference in the boys and libido is pretty normal.
I only lean away from SERM as it does bother me that is it stronger and also toxic, and wanted to bring my test back on its own. However, to be on the safe side I may get some nolva or torem for a mild two week jumpstart.
Back to the stack, still. I am looking to keep my gains, I have gained about 15 pounds, a lot from eating very well, some from epi, I believe. My arms have grown by 1/2 inch, thighs by 1 inch, and waist stayed about the same... maybe 1/4 inch increase, chest 1/2 inch.
In my cabinet is....NHA stack, Massfx, a little HDX2, post cycle support(resveratin), advanced post cycle therapy, 6 oxo,
creatine cee, citruline malate, arginine malate, beta alanine, sesamin, and whey, fish oil, cla, multis,
My plan was the AX stack, but the price and many people swear by the NHA stack, so went that route instead.
Thanks, guys for all the input.
I am not a kid.. I am 40, and want to take care of myself properly while still optimizing my growth.
Pulse has been ok, if I were to do it again, I would do ED as the off days seem to have some hormonal balance issues.
The comments about 6 oxo surprise me, but are appreciated. I was told by many that it was very good for post cycle therapy.
I have done months of reading and research before starting and planning my cycle. Maybe too much as I still cannot seem to set myself due to so many differing opinions.

 

[TheAnimalG]

Of course it will show low test and shutdown

Actually, 6-oxo has been shown to INCREASE test in studies.

Here is a study published in the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition:

Invalid Link Removed

Here is the money quote:

"FT and DHT underwent overall increases of 90% and 192% for 300 mg 6-OXO and 84% and 265% for 600 mg, respectively, while T/E increased 53% and 67% for 300 mg and 600 mg 6-OXO, respectively."

So, doesn't that pretty conclusively show that 6-OXO is NOT suppressive?

 

[ftchef]

so per that article, 6 OXO is not a good anti aromatase, and this is what I was going to have it in my pct for. So it may as well wait for some other use some other time.

 

[zpnq]

Of course it will show low test and shutdown , I just took a mild steroid, but that said, i will be attempting an OTC post cycle therapy. Its the blood tests after the post cycle therapy(i will running for 8 weeks) that will tell the story.

That wasnt about 6-oxo it was about my blood tests before post cycle therapy.

Actually, 6-oxo has been shown to INCREASE test in studies.

i was answering you here

Also, I second the others: post your bloodwork after your cycle. Even if it shows low test and shutdown, I won't hold it against you.... I think it would be good for all other to know.

6-oxo in not a part of my post cycle therapy. I took epi for 6 weeks pulsing and will be doing an over the counter post cycle therapy. Its all back in the thread there. I went in for bloods yesterday, i started my post cycle therapy yesterday.


In the start of the thread i advised against 6-oxo

I also never said 6-oxo was suppressive. It was jomi that implied it by asking what the relevance of 6-oxo binding to the AR is. In my answer i said i didn't know it did. your getting confused. Take a step back and read through again.

 

[NasD]

ftchef, 15 lbs is impressive for a pulse! Congrats. I hear you on the contradicting opinions...here is mine that I formed all by myself :head:
A. people who hold overall health in higher regard - don't do PH/PS/gear
B. people who take "calculated" health risks - would like to avoid SERMs since they're also a drug
C. people who don't want moobs (read man boobies)/are gyno-phobic...that would be me - figure a SERM "can't hurt" and play safe
D. others

myself... I'm on the B/C fence

 

[ftchef]

thanks, NasD, the 15lbs, I am sure is from a combination of increased cals and not just epi. But, I am thrilled, I just hope to hold on to most of it. I am right there with you on the moobs!, and I think I will get some torem to be on the safe side.
All in all, I will have to be off the epi for awhile to really get a better idea of how well it did work. Strength HAS been great,squats are way up as well as bench, etc. I was hoping for a bit more mass. But then again, i still feel like I'm a small guy at 200lbs, and want to be huuuge!