Post Cardio Nutrition ?

[R.I.C.]

I'm coming towards the end of my cutting cycle - so I've upped my cardio to 6 - 7 times a week, around 35 - 45 mins, doing a jog/walk combination, in the morning. I've done this regime earlier this year, but even though I lost fat, I seemed to lose an equivalent amount of muscle too. (I was working out 5 times a week, and still am)

Back then I didn't eat for 45 min - 1 hour after my cardio (too keep insulin levels low) because I wanted to take full advantage of EPOC (Elevated Postworkout Oxygen consumption) - hence burn more calories. In hindsight, maybe that was the reason for the muscle loss (also I was on a daily calorie deficit of 700 - 800 cals)

So this time around, after cardio, I'm considering having half of what I usually have post-workout. I'm aware this will hinder fat oxidation, because of the insulin spike resulting from the consumed glucose. But maybe this will preserve most of my muscle mass ? Another possibility is just supplementing with Amino's, BCAA's, or Glutamine after cardio - which could be the protein source for gluconeogenesis, instead of muscle protein being used ? [/color]

Any ideas or thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[YellowJacket]

Well it seems you have planned it out and maybe this is something you could "hit or miss" to share with us, seems interesting.....But remember, you actually burn more calories AFTER your cardio than you do during it.....Best of luck.

 

[Chemo]

Originally posted by YellowJacket
.....But remember, you actually burn more calories AFTER your cardio than you do during it.....

Fill in a dumb ole Kentucky boy...how does the body burn more calories AFTER than during?  Maybe I've been doing it all wrong

Chemo

 

[YellowJacket]

To some it up and keep it basic without getting too complex....
After your work out, you body rushes to rebuild glycogen stores in the muscles, thus speeding up the metabolism to perform these actions, burning anything in their way (I believe it's 95% fat and, mostly from the adipose tissue) and this is an awesome phenom, so before you RMR goes back to normal, you've actually burnt so many calories during intense exercise and even more afterwards.

 

[Blindfaith]

yeah..us exercise physiologist call this the "afterburn effect". The thing is when you tax your cardiovascular system enough it will stay in a thermogenic state for most of the day. But the cardio has to be some what intense.

IMO the best cardio to do for the best afterburn effect would be 20 mins balls to the wall. Or HIIT.

This is also why doing cardio first thing in the morning is the best because the effect lasts for much longer...think about it...would you rather have an increased metabolism during the day or would you want it right before you goto sleep??? Thats a no-brainer

 

[YellowJacket]

And BF comes in with the scientific version, very nice bro

 

[windwords7]

I have been working on the principal the Blindfaith mentioned. I am sprinting hardcore after my workouts these days. Going balls out for no more than about 15min. of some kind of heavy exertion cardio. I feel like I'm loosing some body fat without being deteremental to the muscles. I have heard it called Anabolic Aerobics as well.

WW7

 

[sage]

I have been working on the principal the Blindfaith mentioned. I am sprinting hardcore after my workouts these days. Going balls out for no more than about 15min. of some kind of heavy exertion cardio. I feel like I'm loosing some body fat without being deteremental to the muscles. I have heard it called Anabolic Aerobics as well.

WW7

yup, thats my way of incorporating cardio into my routines w/the most minimal muscle lost. Im at a point where mass gain slightly more important than toning but would like to keep the same bf% range. (basically, adding lean mass). so 2-3 times a week, i try to get in a 10-12 minute sprinting. living in the city, its tough to find a place (track, football field, a long empty road) to do wind sprint....and thats basically impossible to run sprints on treadmills so i run across a bball court...walk back....and sprint again. (again about 10-15, 2-3 times a week after a lifting session)....working good.

 

[Kay]

well, my understanding is that high intensity cardio (>85% MHR) has a greater energy expenditure post workout than amoderate of light intensity cardio (<65% MHR).

But-
Light INtensity Cardio = Less total calories burnt, but a large proportion of these calories come from adipose tissue.
(ex. a light jog/walk or a bike ride)

High Intensity Cardio = Greater calories burnt, Greater post exercise energy consumption, greater cardiovascular benifits, but a larger proprtion of total calories spend can be derived from lean mass.
(ex Interval training)

Also with high intensity exercise, the HR remains elevated for much longer post exercise than with lower intensity exercise.

Another bad thing about lower intensity exercise is that it takes the body appx 20-25 minutes after inititaion for the body to tap into fat stores and muscle glycogen to completely deplete.

I think if you want to lose weight a combination of both is the best idea, with 2 session/wk of light intensity ex. and 2-3 sessions/wk of high intensity cardio.

 

[crazypete]

high intensity aerobics all the way (actually anaerobic)

sprints are better, here's why:

forget how many fat calories you burn during exercise. this is the biggest lie ever. First off as you increase your intensity, you will burn more fat until you reach the maximun rate. It is true that the percentage of fat is lower, but total fat burn is higher (time being equal). The mentioned "afterburn effect" is what is reponsible for the effectiveness of high intensity training. The way this works is that after intense training (lifting or sprints) the body shuts down the ability of adipose to absorb nutrients and convert them to fat for up to 6 hrs post workout. With low intensity aerobics, this effect can be as short as 30 min. This is just half of it. The other half is an increase in the basal metabolic rate. This can be up to 39 hrs for sprints and 48 hrs for lifting. This is due to hormonal responses to training. It explains why we can get away with taking in simple carbs post workout without negative effects (assuming one is not diabetic, etc.).

that explains fat burning, now health effects:

once again sprints are better. It allows you to get in shape faster (best way to increase VO2max is interval/sprint training) and the better shape you are in the faster you can shed more fat and gain more muscle. If one is careful about diet and training, you can get better results in the long run than the old bulk up, cut down cycle which is a vicious circle. It also leads to better behaviors concerning one's health in the long run with a positive impact on the hormonal system. Just my thoughts.

For those thinking of implementing:

1. training twice a day, 1 lifting workout, 1 anabolic aerobics will be better than doing at once. If this is done, try to keep the workouts at least 8 hrs apart. Also try not to work similar groups in the same day. This is tricky. Eg. on leg days swimming, on upper body days sprints running or biking. Or one could lift one day, do cardio the next and alternate between the two. If training twice a day, take every third day off.
2. no more than 20 min is required. In fact it is detrimental to those who are new to this type of training.
3. sample routine: do an all out 100m sprint, rest 45 seconds, repeat 19 times. your done (in more than one way) if not, you've been taking it easy.
4. post workout nutrition. same as lifting. eg 200 lbs male <10% bf: 50g protein, 50-125g sugar or maltodextrin, 10mL flax oil, creatine if you want (5-10g)

as always, questions, comments are more than welcome, cheers, pete

 

[R.I.C.]

It's been 4 weeks since I upped the cardio. Couldn't manage to do it 5 - 6 days a week though, it was more like one day on, one day off. Didn't supplement with anything after my cardio; which was 30-45 mins of intermittent jogging and walking.

Results: Good. Can't say that I've lost any muscle, but then again, my diet hasn't been spot on. In the end, perhaps I wasn't on a very high calorie deficit after all. I managed to lose 2 pounds though, and it shows.

When I finally get my diet back in check, I'll probably supplement with some L-Glutamine after my cardio, I'll keep you guys posted.

What's even more interesting is the statement made by crazypete: "that after intense training (lifting or sprints) the body shuts down the ability of adipose to absorb nutrients and convert them to fat for up to 6 hrs post workout"

Is this for real ? Where did you get this information from crazypete, I'd certainly like to read it. According to that theory, I could eat a chunky burger with the lot, a huge bucket of loaded fries, and a chocolate thickshake, after my workout - and not put on a gram of fat (if I ate clean the rest of the day) ?? Sounds like all my Christmas's come at once ! Anyone have an opinion or some facts/references regarding this.

 

[crazypete]

sorry, not so simple. i doubt that your body will absorb all those poor nutrients into muscle or excrete it (post workout nutrition is very important because your body is very depleted, the faster you can replace, the faster you repair. also can get more supercompensation). the fat would still be circulating after the effect wore off. it would also slow carbs and protein from entering muscle (bad). the idea is that carbs will be used for glycogen replenishment first, any extra will still end up in fat tissue anyway sooner or later. this just explains why we can get away with eating high GI carbs after a workout and take advantage of the insulin to push extra glucose and amino acids into muscle cells, and we don't have to worry about insulin promoting glucose uptake in adipose. i remember learning this in a nutritional biochemistry class last year. sorry, i cannot find study references, but when i do i will post them. can you take my word for it, i have a BSc in Biochem (graduated last year). this info should be available in any good biochemistry or physiology based nutrition text. also i found another one: as intensity increases, post exercise fat utilization increases: done by craig broeder at east tennesse state university recently, i can't find on pubmed, but it must be out there.

cheers, pete
PS as always ask questions if you have them

 

[R.I.C.]

Knew there had to be a catch somewhere ! Thanks for the explanation pete. I had a slight suspicion that even if post w/o shuts down the absorption of fat, the fatty acids still circulate until the effect wears out. That said, I'd still like to read up about this effect, so post any references when you have them. Maybe you could recommend a book about nutrional biochemistry that would be valuable for me to read, I'm sure you've come across some great one's during your degree.

I'm keen to give the Interval cardio a try, but first I've got a few more questions. From what I've gathered, it seems that intensity is the key to this style of cardio. If that's true, instead of doing an anabolic cardio session + weights session, why not do 2 weights sessions ? Would I be correct in saying that if you kept your rest between sets to a minimum, hence keeping your heart rate elevated you'd get the same kind of intensity (if not better) than the anabolic cardio session ? Moreover because in a weights session you target the muscles directly, it would be more beneficial ? Ofcourse there is the issue of overtraining, but like you suggested; 2 days on, 1 day off may prevent this.

Another one. Wouldn't consumption of high GI carbs after the cardio session hinder fat oxidation, because of the effect insulin has on lipolysis ?

Cheers

 

[Nelson]

CrazyPete

Great Post.
I want to incorporate cardio in the mornings 2-3 times a week to cut some BF.
FYI I workout with weights in the evening 4 times a week..
Since there`s a heap of snow here now I can`t do my cardio outside.
Would skipping do the trick?
I was thinking 2 mins on / 1 off / 2 on / 1 off / 2 on / 1 off / 2 on.
Should I take glutamine pre or post?
Should I drink the post-shake immediately after the workout, or wait 30 minutes?
Do I eat my normal breakfast (oatmeal/eggs) as well as the post-workout shake?
Sorry so many questions - just wanna make sure I`m doing it right.

 

[YellowJacket]

Re: CrazyPete

http://www.forum.bdcnutrition.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=797

Read that real quick man......

Skipping will work, hitting a punching bag (or fake one) will work....if you have a large basement.....do some shuttles (10 yards back and forth real quick for 1 minute at a time)
Take your glutamine pre AND post. Eat your normal breakfast, on cardio days I hope dont get sick, but ALWAYS have your post workout shake, no matter what. As for the drinking the shake right after or waiting, thats a huge debate among nutritionists and various educated bodybuilders/board members. I personally say wait, you can pump and adequate amount of blood to the muscle to being repair, and a whey shake 30 minutes later isnt going to do any damage, most companies recommend drinking it within 45 minutes of weight training, so I think you'll be fine, plus a whey shake then cardio is rough on your GI tract, not to mention how sick it would make you.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

sorry, not so simple. i doubt that your body will absorb all those poor nutrients into muscle or excrete it (post workout nutrition is very important because your body is very depleted, the faster you can replace, the faster you repair. also can get more supercompensation). the fat would still be circulating after the effect wore off. it would also slow carbs and protein from entering muscle (bad). the idea is that carbs will be used for glycogen replenishment first, any extra will still end up in fat tissue anyway sooner or later. this just explains why we can get away with eating high GI carbs after a workout and take advantage of the insulin to push extra glucose and amino acids into muscle cells, and we don't have to worry about insulin promoting glucose uptake in adipose. i remember learning this in a nutritional biochemistry class last year. sorry, i cannot find study references, but when i do i will post them. can you take my word for it, i have a BSc in Biochem (graduated last year). this info should be available in any good biochemistry or physiology based nutrition text. also i found another one: as intensity increases, post exercise fat utilization increases: done by craig broeder at east tennesse state university recently, i can't find on pubmed, but it must be out there.

cheers, pete
PS as always ask questions if you have them

Just a little tidbit for you.

Cutting The Fat and Keeping The Mass: Is it really possible?
by Tom McCullough MEd., MSS
"What happens when the intensity of the exercise is increased ->70& VO2 max-? Sure the oxidation rate of FFA increased but lactate production also increases. Lactate decreases the FFA mobilization rate and increases FFA reesterification rate. Carbohydrates then become an increasingly important source of fuel. However, during prolonged sub maximal exercise blood lactate levels are very low, thus not affecting FFA mobilization significantly. Thus, carbohydrates are used much less as a fuel and oxidated fats become the most abundant source of energy"

Losing body fat whilst gaining qaulity weight.
Article by James Collier BSc (Hons) SRD (Moderator and contributor to Muscletalk as an expert in nutrition.)
"Try to do 30-40 minutes of cardiovascular work, consisting of maybe two or three exercises. Intensity should be low, and about 55-60% maximum heart rate. This has been shown to be the optimum level for mobilising fat reserves whilst maintaining muscle tissue. In practice, this is a level so when you cease exercising you feel slightly warm and just out of breath, i.e. you are not panting, nor are you breathing normally."

NFPT Personal Trainer Magazine
Scientific Bodybuilding Precontest Program
by Ron J. Clark, NFPT President & Founder
"If a client comes to you at a late stage in his/her contest preparation wanting advice, and you find he/she is dieting extremely hard (undesirable), you may have no choice but to recommend reduced intensity, and increased frequency & duration of training. Intense training while on a low total caloric intake will result in a tremendous amount of lean muscle tissue and glycogen loss"





Ino other words, low intesity is more efficient in burning fat. For Someone that has a low bf% and a good amount of mass, sprinting is a sure way to lose some serious LBM. I'm also assuming this is being used on a low carb carb diet when muscle and liver glycogen is low. Diet plays a big factor here. Most of the studies done on hig intesity exercise proves it will burn more fat but they also conducted without diet manipulation. Studies that have been done while restricting diets prove that low intesity is more efficient at burning fat while keeping LBM. High intensity exercise has a greater chance of burning LBM for fuel.

 

[crazypete]

no doubt Bobo. during times of severe carb depletion its hard to do anything and the body's hormonal systems are not in the same balance as a normally fed state. in fact high intensity exercise could be really detrimental. however, the stuff i had written before is very beneficial for training effects so long as one is not concerned with being contest ripped. i train some football players and they have all become very lean while still gaining strength and muscle (none of them use steroids or prohormones, but they are very dedicated and stick to the program religiously). when i wrote my reply i assumed that people were interested in getting low bodyfat while preserving or adding muscle, not getting into contest shape, perhaps mens health or muscle and fitness cover model shape. to go past this level, i will admit that i know very little since it does not interest me. however, for long term goals i believe that high intensity is better. if one has read earlier posts, they will see that i don't agree with the do anything to bulk up then do anything to cut down mentality (this is not saying do not use certain supps/phs/steroids, just that judicious use combined with a holistic diet and exercise program will yield much better results).

so as Bobo pointed out if your on a restricted diet (well below maintenence), then by all means ignore high intensity. but for everyone else the opposite. besides high intensity is funner. sports can count if the level is high enough.

R.I.C., sorry someone borrowed my nutrition text, but i have a better idea. your thing says you in melbourne. last i checked you have some excellent universities in the city. go to the one with the best health sciences, kinesiology, biochemistry program. they will have the best library with plenty of great references and books. just remember that you have to take each study into context: was it done on healthy young men who exercise, what was their diet and so on, otherwise you can end up with a missunderstanding. i agree with everything in Bobo's post, however, my earlier post was not specific enough. also different people get different results. so when applying your findings try to be honest with yourself (ie: was this diet succesful because i stuck to it or do i like it because it is easy to stick to, but i could get better results elsewhere. once again, what you find hard others may find easy.). I will try to find that study about postworkout increased metabolism, but this is a known and well researched phenomenon. don't worry about training twice a day. one has to be at an extremely high level or seriously assisted to gain any real training effect ie: muscle or strength. as for fat loss, you are better off with seperate sessions, one lifting, one high intensity cardio. try to keep them about 8 hours apart for maximum effect, greater than 8 hours is okay as long as it doesn't affect other things such as sleep. don't worry about insulin. after a hard workout its effects on adipose are not like usual. also the hour that it would inhibit oxidation is short and you get MORE oxidation in the hours after than during that hour or so (this is the effect that we are going after anyway). also i question how big this suppression of fat oxidation is in real world terms.

some notes:
1. i don't do cardio on an empty stomach, hell i don't really wake up until some time into my second lecture.
2. i always eat first thing in the morning, otherwise i'm even more useless. i have done this since i was a kid (nothing like 6am hockey games saturday morning). if you have trouble eating, try to introduce slowly, a little to start and then build up.
3. ignore 2 if you do cardio first thing. puking is not good for promoting optimal working of your body's systems. also if you do a high intensity cardio session, do a post workout-like recovery.
4. sprinters, even ones not on steroids don't seem to lose LBM, so we do not have to worry about this if we are not on a restricted diet and keep workouts under 30 min, 20 is enough.
5. ignore everything about high intensity if you are on a keto/highly restricted diet.
6. unless you have to get into shape for a competition, ignore the keto/highly restricted diet.

cheers, pete

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Gotcha bro...Its tough to tell what people are referring too since diet plays such a crucial role. All in all, high intesity exercise does burn more fat, in particular Interval Training. For someone thats wants to drop the pounds this works very effective. I think we agree for the most post, which is always good

 

[Nelson]

Thanks YellowJacket

I read the other thread & will try this out after the New Year for about four months.
This is my short-term plan to kick-start 2003.
So I`ll be doing:
*HIIT cardio 5 mornings a week for 20-30 minutes;
*Eating a 40/40/20 clean diet that is at maintenace level, give or take;
*Doing weights 4 times a week in the evening.
*After 1 month of the above, I`ll add in some T1-PRO for two cycles of 4 weeks on / 4 off / 4 on.
*Plus I`ll be supplementing with glutamine, multi-v, vit-C, creatine between cycles, flax oil, liver tabs, eca, whey protein, dextrose, mixed protein etc.
How`s that sound?
After 4 months of this I`m expecting BIG changes.
I`ll make a log on BDC (if that`s cool) to post my progress, diet etc & to keep me motivated.
Any comments?