Cutting Diet: 3rd times a Charm

[cpye2]

Hello all. It has been a long time since my last post. Mostly I just read an research. This is my 3rd time cutting weight, below is my background. I have lost 15 pounds of fat slowly in the 5 months, but trying to continue and get leaner. Please review the diet, cardio, supplementation, etc and give some suggestions!

I started college in 2002, and was 6' 3" 145 lbs. After 4 years of Pizza and beer, I was 6' 3" 190lbs for fat and bones. Before I graduated I wanted to start getting into shape. In Early 2006, I started training in my garage with a set of dumbbells, implementing supplements, and cleaned up my eating. I put on some mass and cut down to the mid 185's. After 3 or 4 months of my routine, I decided to join the local gym. I met a lot of people who were competing in BB shows, and learned a lot about dieting. After bulking up to 200 LBS by October (Though I would never be 200) I decided to cut weight. I was doing AM Cardio, Eating very clean and lean, and not drinking alcohol. By March, I got down to 170 lbs. I felt good, but was not shredded. I started working a desk job in June 2007, put on some pounds, and went back to bulking. Got up to 209 (And I thoght I could never his 200!). Well, after bulking up for about a year, I decided to cut back down in Winter/Spring 2008. Started the diet this time, but held off on the AM cardio. I got it down to 189lbs, and couldnt get much lower. I was doing afternoon cardio (I know not as effective as AM cardio). Well, after remaining 189 for over a year, I got tired of feeling weak. I bulked back up From September (189 lbs) to 215 lbs in Janaury. Well, you know what that means, time to cut weight for the summer. This time, lets make sure we take everything we learned, and go to the next level.

I started out in mid January at 215, and was injesting about 2900 calories a day of EFA's (60-75g fat), complex carbs (around 225g of brown rice), and lean protein (250g egg whites, chicken, and tuna). After 1 month I lost 3 lbs. WTF? I used to lose 5 lbs in the first week, but this time I started out at a higher calorie count with intention to ween myself. So I started doing some afternoon cardio to get in shape before doing morning cardio. Lowered the calories about 200/ pay. Still after 2 months, I was around 211. I decided to lower the calories some more and introduce the morning cardio. Got it down to 207 lbs. I knew then I was on the right path. Spent around 2 or 3 weeks at 207, the cut the calories again, and got down to 203. At this point, I was around 2300-2400 calories. I didnt want to cut much more calories, so I dropped more of the rice and switched it with salads. And also introduced High Intense Interval Training in the AM for 30 minutes about 1 time every week. Well, I have been at 200lbs for 3 weeks now, a total loss of 15 lbs. Love handles, waste and tits have shrank down a good bit, but still no six pack.

What can I do to get to the next level? I am doing cardio in the morning 2-3 times a week (sometimes is 35 minutes on 15 incline and 3.9mph, or a 2 mile jog, or 30 minutes of high intense interval training), strength training 4-5 times a week, and following a strict diet. I also just added some supplements to try and help motivate me to keep going (5g bcaa & 2 capsules of recreate before cardio, 3 caps of orange triad after my first meal, Horse Power before workout, cell-mass after workout, 5g bcaa & multivitamin before bed).

Here is a what an ideal day of my diet looks like now:

Cal Fat Carb Pro
1 cup Skim Milk 84 0 12 8
¼ Cup Nutty Nuggets 110 1 23 4
3 Fish Oil Caps 36 3.6 0 0
½ scoop protein powder 70 0 1 12

08:30:00 AM
4 Eggs Whites 64 1 1 14.4
½ Cup All-Bran 81 1.5 23 4.1
3 Fish Oil Caps 36 3.6 0 0
½ cup Skim Milk 42 0 6 4.3

10:15:00 AM
Tuna 120 1 0 26
2 Rice Cakes 140 0 45 3
3 Fish Oil Caps 36 3.6 0 0

12:30:00 PM
1 cup Skim Milk 84 0 12 8
Scoop of protein powser 145 0 3 25

02:30:00 PM
Tuna 120 1 0 26
2 Rice Cakes 140 0 45 3
3 Fish Oil Caps 36 3.6 0 0

04:30:00 PM
½ Chicken Breast 142 3 0 26
Can of Green Beans 70 0 14 1
3 Fish Oil Caps 36 3.6 0 0

06:30:00 PM
Salad 61 0 13 3.8
½ Chicken Breast 142 3 0 26

08:30:00 PM
½ Chicken Breast 142 3 0 26
Salad 61 0 13 3.8
3 Fish Oil 36 3.6 0 0

10:30:00 PM
½ Chicken Breast 142 3 0 26

Daily Totals 2176 39.1 211 250.4

Salad consists of:
no dressing, use a mexican salsa that is 3 ingredients, and no perservatives
½ Cup Broccolli 27 0 5 2
¼ Yellow Onion 12 0 3 0.3
½ Bell Pepper 15 0 4 0.5
1 Cup Spinach 7 0 1 1
total 61 0 13 3.8

 

[cpye2]

Here is what the weight training looks like:

Monday Biceps:
4 sets dumbbell curls 15+ reps
4 sets barbell hammer curls 8-12 reps
4 sets barbell curls 8-12 reps
4 sets dumbbell hammer curls 15+ reps

Tuesday Triceps:
4 sets rope pull downs 15+ reps
4 sets above head tricep extensions 15+ reps
4 sets dumbbell kickbacks 10 reps
Calves:
3 sets seated calf raises 12-15 reps
3 sets standing calf raises 15-20 reps

Wednesday Back:
4 sets close grip lat pull downs 8-10 reps
4 sets wide grip pull downs 12-15 reps
4 sets T-Bar rows 8-10 reps
4 sets dumbbell rows 10-12 reps
4 sets of barbell shrugs 8-10 reps
4 sets hyper extensions with 35lb plate 10 reps

Thursday deltoids:
4 sets front deltoid raises
4 sets side deltoid raises
4 sets rear deltoid raises
4 sets military press


Friday Chest:
4 sets dumbbell press 6-8 reps
4 sets inclined dumbbell press 6-8 reps
3 sets dumbbell pec flys 10-12 reps
3 sets incline benchpress 20+ reps
3 sets pec deck flys 15+ reps

 

[TimberLakers]

You might not want to hear this... but you just may not be working hard enough.

Diet looks OK - you could make some improvements... but I would really encourage you to try to make cardio a priority at least 5 days per week at the intensity you are performing.

I trim down quick on 2200 calories, but I'm also substantially larger than you. You could live with 1900 calories fairly easy... just keep the protein up and lift heavy to maintain muscle mass.

 

[cpye2]

Thanks for telling me that man, cause I was about to lower the calories by cutting some of my protein, and go to lifting lighter weight, but more reps. I could definately step up the intensity some days on the cardio, and should try to go more days in the week / weekend. I thought I was already going hard on the cardio though because I seemed to be doing more then most people in the gym, and going harder. But at the same time, I am in better shape, younger, and have a cleaner diet then most people in the gym.

 

[goonstopher]

Thanks for telling me that man, cause I was about to lower the calories by cutting some of my protein, and go to lifting lighter weight, but more reps. I could definately step up the intensity some days on the cardio, and should try to go more days in the week / weekend. I thought I was already going hard on the cardio though because I seemed to be doing more then most people in the gym, and going harder. But at the same time, I am in better shape, younger, and have a cleaner diet then most people in the gym.

no no no...

Do NOT rely on weight lifting as a calorie burning activity. Do NOT lower weight and up reps!

If anything lower sets and UP the weights. More sets only tear down more muscle and lighter weights give your body a green light to get rid of muscle.

Don't lower protein either

Getting cut without losing muscle is the one thing I tend to pull off properly. Trust me. Do something like a 5x5 program (needsize not madcow) or UHT. Basically 4-7 sets TOTAL per body part, heavy weights and more frequent. Protein levels never change when cutting, you manipulate other macros, protein will not make you fat.

personally I am of the camp that cardio should be done as the LAST resort for someone who is interested in maintaining muscle. Also HIIT is more of a sometimes activity than a staple of cardio activity if you want to preserve muscle...

But if your goals are not maximal muscle maintenance and you just want to get cut at all costs then forget what I have to say ha

 

[TimberLakers]

no no no...

Do NOT rely on weight lifting as a calorie burning activity. Do NOT lower weight and up reps!

If anything lower sets and UP the weights. More sets only tear down more muscle and lighter weights give your body a green light to get rid of muscle.

Don't lower protein either

Getting cut without losing muscle is the one thing I tend to pull off properly. Trust me. Do something like a 5x5 program (needsize not madcow) or UHT. Basically 4-7 sets TOTAL per body part, heavy weights and more frequent. Protein levels never change when cutting, you manipulate other macros, protein will not make you fat.

personally I am of the camp that cardio should be done as the LAST resort for someone who is interested in maintaining muscle. Also HIIT is more of a sometimes activity than a staple of cardio activity if you want to preserve muscle...

But if your goals are not maximal muscle maintenance and you just want to get cut at all costs then forget what I have to say ha

Disagree to an extent here... I'm a big believer in incline walking... you may lose a little muscle, but you're going to slim down a lot faster. To me, its either trimming another 500 cals from my food daily, or walking at a good incline pace for 25 to 30 minutes... Easy choice for me.

 

[TimberLakers]

But anyway, we definitely agree on the whole light weight crap... That's the typical broscience... "I'm gonna up the reps and lower the weights to shred up"... Yeah, good luck with that.

 

[Cooky32]

I believe you should increase the protein, and keep the carbs complex and always include veggies. Maybe try sweet potato. Use olive oil for cooking. Keep doing morning cardio on empty stomach. Maybe try OXY ELITE PRO before cardio. I would also use ZMA before bed with some BCAA's and Glutamine. Keep that anabolic sleep going.

 

[cpye2]

As of late, I have been taking the BCAA's when I dont eat a 1/2 a chicken breast right before bed, and always take the BCAA's before AM cardio.

As for the light weight, higher reps, I have used it before and just ended up losing a bunch of strength. I have not had success with it, but have read about it in other peoples journals. I'll keep up with the high weight, 8-10 reps deal. But should I try to do a large and small group each day?

Now as far as the cardio goes, 3 times a week I would walk on the incline as high as it would go and at a pace just below jogging for 35 minutes (roughly 475 cals). That was all good for a while, but I got used to it, and my body did also. Thats when I replaced one day a week with the HIT training (1.5 minutes high speed then 1.5 minutes rest). 30 minutes of that will put you to the test. My question is how many days a week should I be doing cardio in AM and should I do some in the PM also. Definitely not trying to lose muscle.

I didnt drop any protein out of the diet, but I adjusted some if it and got it down to 1936 calories (144g carbs, 39g fat, and 233g protein)

Any feedback on all that is much appreciated.

 

[cpye2]

Little more info:
I take recreate before I do the cardio also, but I dont like it, it does nothing for me. The only reason I am not eating sweet potatos now, is there is nowhere in my diet to insert them unless I knock out the salad or green beans. Unless I am mistaken, its better to do the salad and green beans then the sweet potatoes.

 

[TimberLakers]

In my opinion... You should be doing cardio daily. Eat enough protein, and you'll keep catabolism at bay.

People get way too afraid of that.

 

[goonstopher]

In my opinion... You should be doing cardio daily. Eat enough protein, and you'll keep catabolism at bay.

People get way too afraid of that.

Let me just argue with you for a second...
(For the argument below I assume your earlier recommendation of 20-30mins)

If you are doing cardio everyday, what do you do when weight loss stalls?

At that pount you can A. Lower calories or B. Up the cardio.

A. does not work because if you were losing fat on calories that only required that small amount of cardio then it will not be safe to lower them much more

B. Does not work because you are already eating low calories and your BF% will hopefully be low enough that further cardio in that state will result in muscle loss.

Your advice is fine if someone is able to reach their goal using that method. Ideally though I would like to see someone have a factor they can manipulate so that means either eating more and doing more cardio OR eating less and not doing as much cardio. That way one can lower calories or up the cardio depending on which method they are using. Either can work for different people but low cals and low cardio is not a good long term gamble for most people.

 

[goonstopher]

In my opinion... You should be doing cardio daily. Eat enough protein, and you'll keep catabolism at bay.

People get way too afraid of that.

Let me just argue with you for a second...

If you are doing cardio everyday, what do you do when weight loss stalls?

At that pount you can A. Lower calories or B. Up the cardio.

A. does not work because if you were losing fat on calories that only required that small amount of cardio then it will not be safe to lower them much more

B. Does not work because you are already eating low calories and your BF% will hopefully be low enough that further cardio in that state will result in muscle loss.

Your advice is fine if someone is able to reach their goal using that method. Ideally though I would like to see someone have a factor they can manipulate so that means either eating more and doing more cardio OR eating less and not doing as much cardio. Either can work for different people but low cals and low cardio is not a good long term gamble for most people, at least not as a starting point.

 

[cpye2]

Yeah, that was my whole thing this time around. Start off at 3000 cals and no cardio, and only work in cardio and lower calories when I hit a stall. I been losing slowly but surely, so 4th time should be perfect. However, when I got down to 2300 cals and cardio 3 times a week and hit a stall, I knew I was in trouble, thats when I started seeking advice.

 

[goonstopher]

Yeah, that was my whole thing this time around. Start off at 3000 cals and no cardio, and only work in cardio and lower calories when I hit a stall. I been losing slowly but surely, so 4th time should be perfect. However, when I got down to 2300 cals and cardio 3 times a week and hit a stall, I knew I was in trouble, thats when I started seeking advice.

Ok I think I can help then.

First off you need to add in re-feeds. Carb/calorie manipulation is iomportant at this stage. I would work back towards having some higher calorie days and maybe more cardio. Honestly I haven't read your whole post (I rarely do sorry) but I will and try to figure something out.

 

[cpye2]

How many of those days / week or month, and how many calories? I am going to try and up the cardio to 4-5 times a week, but if I can do it in the AM everytime, will afternoon suffice?

 

[goonstopher]

This is just a rough outline but look at this thread

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/weight-loss/154844-new-need-guidence.html

 

[TimberLakers]

Logic doesn't make sense. His weight Loss has already stalled... If it stalls with a full cardio load, I'd add in a few high calorie spike days as a jump start.

This whole... You're working out too hard to lose weight is just odd... But I know you aren't going to agree with me regardless. You guys will do what you will.

 

[cpye2]

I was at a stall, but I was only doing the cardio 2-3 times a week and still had 200 or so cals I could remove. So I'm going to do that. I weighed today 2 lbs less then last week, I just didnt feel or look like it. I'ma keep with it. My goal is 185, and I am 198.5 right now. So I have dropped almost 20 lbs so far. Its been a long stretch of time, but slow money is better then no money and I drew up my plan to stretch it out for best results.

 

[goonstopher]

6'3" 185 is a stick figure man. Not even in bodybuilding but just in life in general.

 

[TimberLakers]

6'3" 185 is a stick figure man. Not even in bodybuilding but just in life in general.

I'm 6'1" and 183... It's not all that small dude.

 

[goonstopher]

I'm 6'1" and 183... It's not all that small dude.

2 more inches generally equates to up to 10 more pounds plus take bf% into account and yeah it is.

 

[OrganicShadow]

Woah woah woah! Cardio 5 days a week?! Man I don't even do one day. IF you do decide to invest some time in cardio (which isn't a bad thing in my opinion) be sure to make it light stuff either post workout or before breakfast. No crazy six mile sprints, just something to get your HR above/around 120. 5 days a week is gonna make your metabolism as monotonous as a treadmill and you'll hit a brick wall in no time.

I don't know how a feel about the whole 8 meals thing. I mean I've never tried something like that but six seems to do just fine. That's way too much fish oil - mix it up with flax seed, almonds, sesamin, and other lignans and HDLs. Medium Chain Triglycerides (MCT) are also beneficial. Personally? Up your cals to start.

Two words: resistance training. Never ever ever ever ever ever ever drop weight because you want higher rep counts. Anything you've ever heard about high rep/low weight to help aid cutting is bull****. And 4 motions per day? Yeah, you'll drop weight - in lean mass. At your low calories count you'll only overtrain. Combine some of these workouts to do max 2 motions per muscle groups and maintain heavy weight. Focus on your negative reps and concentrate on resistance strength. And when you're done with your sets, then pick up a weight 30-50% of your rep weight and stretch the hell out of those mother****ers. Resistance training and stretching is more effective in raising heart rate than cardio could ever be.

Two additional methods in cutting via diet: carb cycling and cheating... yeah, cheating.

 

[OrganicShadow]

I'm 6'1" and 183... It's not all that small dude.

That's not exactly twig status but I'm wondering how much you're trying to diet down.

 

[goonstopher]

That's not exactly twig status but I'm wondering how much you're trying to diet down.

Bloomfield nj haha I am seconds from there. Worked out in a gym there for the last year.

 

[goonstopher]

Woah woah woah! Cardio 5 days a week?! Man I don't even do one day. IF you do decide to invest some time in cardio (which isn't a bad thing in my opinion) be sure to make it light stuff either post workout or before breakfast. No crazy six mile sprints, just something to get your HR above/around 120. 5 days a week is gonna make your metabolism as monotonous as a treadmill and you'll hit a brick wall in no time.

I don't know how a feel about the whole 8 meals thing. I mean I've never tried something like that but six seems to do just fine. That's way too much fish oil - mix it up with flax seed, almonds, sesamin, and other lignans and HDLs. Medium Chain Triglycerides (MCT) are also beneficial. Personally? Up your cals to start.

Two words: resistance training. Never ever ever ever ever ever ever drop weight because you want higher rep counts. Anything you've ever heard about high rep/low weight to help aid cutting is bull****. And 4 motions per day? Yeah, you'll drop weight - in lean mass. At your low calories count you'll only overtrain. Combine some of these workouts to do max 2 motions per muscle groups and maintain heavy weight. Focus on your negative reps and concentrate on resistance strength. And when you're done with your sets, then pick up a weight 30-50% of your rep weight and stretch the hell out of those mother****ers. Resistance training and stretching is more effective in raising heart rate than cardio could ever be.

Two additional methods in cutting via diet: carb cycling and cheating... yeah, cheating.

You pretty much echoes what I said but went more indepth, good stuff

 

[TimberLakers]

That's not exactly twig status but I'm wondering how much you're trying to diet down.

At 8ish % it's a lot bigger than most of the 200 pound guys at the gym.

 

[Deeerdre]

Here is a what an ideal day of my diet looks like now:

Cal Fat Carb Pro
1 cup Skim Milk 84 0 12 8
¼ Cup Nutty Nuggets 110 1 23 4
3 Fish Oil Caps 36 3.6 0 0
½ scoop protein powder 70 0 1 12

08:30:00 AM
4 Eggs Whites 64 1 1 14.4
½ Cup All-Bran 81 1.5 23 4.1
3 Fish Oil Caps 36 3.6 0 0
½ cup Skim Milk 42 0 6 4.3

10:15:00 AM
Tuna 120 1 0 26
2 Rice Cakes 140 0 45 3
3 Fish Oil Caps 36 3.6 0 0

12:30:00 PM
1 cup Skim Milk 84 0 12 8
Scoop of protein powser 145 0 3 25

02:30:00 PM
Tuna 120 1 0 26
2 Rice Cakes 140 0 45 3
3 Fish Oil Caps 36 3.6 0 0

04:30:00 PM
½ Chicken Breast 142 3 0 26
Can of Green Beans 70 0 14 1
3 Fish Oil Caps 36 3.6 0 0

06:30:00 PM
Salad 61 0 13 3.8
½ Chicken Breast 142 3 0 26

08:30:00 PM
½ Chicken Breast 142 3 0 26
Salad 61 0 13 3.8
3 Fish Oil 36 3.6 0 0

10:30:00 PM
½ Chicken Breast 142 3 0 26

Daily Totals 2176 39.1 211 250.4

Salad consists of:
no dressing, use a mexican salsa that is 3 ingredients, and no perservatives
½ Cup Broccolli 27 0 5 2
¼ Yellow Onion 12 0 3 0.3
½ Bell Pepper 15 0 4 0.5
1 Cup Spinach 7 0 1 1
total 61 0 13 3.8

Seems like a crap load of fish oil and fish man but dunno

 

[TimberLakers]

Seems like a crap load of fish oil and fish man but dunno

:lol: I just noticed that now... what an absurd amount of fish oil...

 

[cpye2]

I dont see how you can eat only 6 meals in a day, my day starts at 6 AM and doesnt usually end till 11:30PM-12AM. I would be starving. As far as carb cycling goes, you think its a bad idea to eat a lot of veggies each day, and I should be eating brown rice most of the days then just dedicating 2 days to veggies?

I used to do Fish oil, meant to change it to flax oil, but prob didnt adjust my spreadsheet. You guys really thin 39g of fat is a lot in one day? How many grams should I drop down to to be affective?

I think 185 is far from stick figure. I used to weigh 145 before I started lifting weights, now that was stick figurish. I have been working out 3 years and have not ever been on roids and am not trying to be the swollest guy in the gym, but I want to be in top shape when the summer rolls around. However, it has already arrived.

I personally think 5 days of cardio is too much, I get in about 3 days though. Its always before any meals. But I never go over 2.5 miles of anything, and keep my heart rate around 140-150.

I swapped the workout routine to a 2 body part/ 2 exercises a day routine. I like it. I am still using heavy free weights though, I try to stay off the machines. They just dont seem to make me as sore as throwing down on the free weights.

 

[TimberLakers]

185 isn't a stick figure. Especially if you're 185 and lean (sub 12).

That much fish oil isn't dangerous or anything, just needless. Take 2 or 3 with breakfast and 2 or 3 with dinner... Thats more than enough.

Your opinion on how many days of cardio is too much really doesn't carry much weight with me. The overall benefit of cardio goes beyond looking good in the mirror... and you don't have to go stupid low on your calories. Whatever though man - do your thing. Good luck.