[Par Deus]

Do you understand the concept of "waste of time"??

That is what you are. You are no one, and I gain nothing from arguing with you.

I abused you without mercy the other times you tried to show how smart you are.

Am I really expected to address everything every single little nobody says, until the end of time, until THEY get tired of buzzing around my head?

Get real.

Do something significant, make yourself somebody in this industry, bring out 10+ badass, innovative products, run a successful company, get hand picked to do an article in Muscle and Fitness by their PhD from Yale science editor.

Then, you will be worth my time, and we can have some fun.

The fly does not tell me if I am going to swat him or not, and him viewing me as a "wimp" is merely good comedy.

The fly just buzzes around until I decide to squish him.

Originally Posted by Big Cat

Hey, what's the matter ? You too chicken to discuss the matters at hand ? You want to keep running and hiding and posting **** that isn't relevant ?

You fell off, ****er. You're nobody, you're so pitiful.

So what's it gonna be ? You gonna show me what you are all about ? Or you want to hide some more.

Wimp.

[Big Cat]

Originally Posted by Par Deus

Do you understand the concept of "waste of time"??

That is what you are. You are no one, and I gain nothing from arguing with you.

I abused you without mercy the other times you tried to show how smart you are.

Am I really expected to address everything every single little nobody says, until the end of time, until THEY get tired of buzzing around my head?

Get real.

Do something significant, make yourself somebody in this industry, bring out 10+ badass, innovative products, run a successful company, get hand picked to do an article in Muscle and Fitness by their PhD from Yale science editor.

Then, you will be worth my time, and we can have some fun.

The fly does not tell me if I am going to swat him or not, and him viewing me as a "wimp" is merely good comedy.

The fly just buzzes around until I decide to squish him.

Do you realize how stupid you look now ?

You are basically saying its a waste of time to adress genuine things that matter, but its not a waste of time to come and comment on my person ?

Much as I like the attention you are giving me, I'm sure the AM members would be more interested in facts and science instead of your opinions of me.

Chicken-**** *****.

[hamper19]

Originally Posted by Big Cat

yeah, sorry about that on my part too, the dude just has a way of getting under my skin sometime.

no pun intended?

[hamper19]

Originally Posted by Big Cat

yeah, sorry about that on my part too, the dude just has a way of getting under my skin sometime.

no pun intended

[Par Deus]

Hehe.

Fine, I took the bait and went ahead and took you apart on bb.com.

SQUISH:

Par Said:


1) Octopamine interferes with MAO, which breaks down norepinephrine, which is lipolytic, no??
In addition, some will go deep to the adipose, into the muscle, where beta3 is moe useful in humans. Some will also go systemic, and make it to muscle, where beta 3 is more useful in humans. This is all in the write-up.

2) Acetone was not included because it does not do much, IMO, for localization. Isopropyl still evaporates far faster than benzyl alcohol. It is gone long before the lag-time at the stratum corneum is over and everything actually starts partitioning. So is the water. It is a good penetration enhancers, but I have several great ones in the formula.

Acetone would also increase the drying and irritation of the skin, which is bad for user compatability, but could also screw up penetration of hydrophillics, long-term

3) Which are you referring to?? I surely hope you do not think a significant amount of water diffusses into the body across the skin barrier. If you do, you really need to do some real transdermal research. The rest are for penetration enhancement, not localization of delivery. And, with hydrophillic actives, excellent penetration enhancers are a must.

4) Please look into the term "lag time" -- water and isopropyl alcohol are long gone before **** things starts penetrating.

5) Glycerol increases the water content of the skin, which is most helpful with these pesky hydrophillic compounds. It is also useful for preventing dryness, irritation, etc.

Thanks for playing, though






quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Big Cat


Well these are some that Par has been dodging :

1) Why does lipoderm ultra contain octopamine when it has been shown that subQ fat barely contains B3 receptors and that the B3 is downregulated when the A2 is blocked (as with yohimbine ?)

2) Why does it not use Acetone as in Nimni's original design ? It was clearly demonstrated that acetone was a better permeation enhancer than isopropanol, and more volatile, creating an excellent combination for a two phase evaporation before the product is funneled into the benzyl and carried across ?

3) Why is their such a large volume of relatively inactive, non-volatile permeation enhancers. A lot of these are good solvents for the active ingredients and do traverse the skin, reducing micellar formation with benzyl alcohol and a larger systemic uptake is the result

4) Next to that volume, carbomers are added as well as glycerol+water. All resulting in occlusion, which may help permeability, but results in less evaporation of the primary phase, resulting in more systemic uptake since isopropanol, with active ingredients dissolved, is now traversing the skin.

5) Why add glycerol at all , I've seen no evidence that it readily penetrates the skin, and its basically useless if you add water from the get go, since its so hygroscopic you would form a glycerol 3H2O complex that will have even more difficultly traversing the skin, decreases permeation and results, possibly, in more occlusion and less evaporation of the primary phase.

Answers to these would be greately appreciated by the members at AM as well.



Well i hope I managed to adress some, if you have more concerns, feel free to post them. [/b]

[Big Cat]

Originally Posted by Par Deus

Hehe.
1) Octopamine interferes with MAO, which breaks down norepinephrine, which is lipolytic, no??
In addition, some will go deep to the adipose, into the muscle, where beta3 is moe useful in humans. Some will also go systemic, and make it to muscle, where beta 3 is more useful in humans. This is all in the write-up.

[/b]

This is all unproven, unsubstantiated and pulled right out of your ass. You know as well as I do it barely penetrates deeper layers in vivo.

2) Acetone was not included because it does not do much, IMO, for localization. Isopropyl still evaporates far faster than benzyl alcohol. It is gone long before the lag-time at the stratum corneum is over and everything actually starts partitioning. So is the water. It is a good penetration enhancers, but I have several great ones in the formula.

Of course it is gone swiftly, it evaporates in minutes, which is why Nimni used it. The fact remains that both merely make the skin more permeable, neither has a direct influence on local delivery, but acetone is the better enhancer (onken and moyer, 1963) and is the more volatile solvent, more conducive of the two-phase system. But probably better as Nimni envisioned it to have a dual system for the first phase that evaporates in two steps to ensure you get a funneling effect to the benzyl stage.

That the isopropyl evaporates wasn't even the issue, your large pool of PE's doesn't evaporate and makes for a good solvent for the products as well, i'd worry about that more. So why bother taking out acetone ? Its cheap, its easy to get, enlighten me.

Your Penetration enhancers basically suck. Even Patrick Arnold saw that. They are very ineffective and require larger amounts than is suited for the TPD system.

Acetone would also increase the drying and irritation of the skin, which is bad for user compatability, but could also screw up penetration of hydrophillics, long-term

Actually irritation of the skin makes it more permeable, you do realise that ? At the SC actions are mostly on the lipid layer, except if you use DMSO or related substances. The best course of action there is to dehydrate it. Water is the least penetrable substance to the stratum corneum. Which is why water influx and efflux was long used as a standard for permeation rates. Of course if you had bothered to read up on skin physiology and some of the older research you would know this.

3) Which are you referring to?? I surely hope you do not think a significant amount of water diffusses into the body across the skin barrier. If you do, you really need to do some real transdermal research. The rest are for penetration enhancement, not localization of delivery. And, with hydrophillic actives, excellent penetration enhancers are a must.

I don't, but apparently you do, seemingly so convinced that glycerol will result in hydration of the skin. That is if it could pass the skin to begin with, which it can't if you add water to it, since it is so hygroscopic it would immediately bond to the water leaving you with a large molecule that would never pass the skin. I'm also aware the rest are for penetratuon enhancement, the only thing pertaining to local delivery in your formula is the TPDS. You apparently didn't bother to read up on the fact that benzyl does not cause micellar formation in lipophillic environments, which means that if you have a substantial amount of lipophillic solvents, such as your PE's, then your ingredients remain dissolved, resulting in systemic uptake. You also cause a more substantial bodiful whole that is less conducive to the evaporation of the first phase, resulting small portions of isopropanol not evaporating and passing the skin, so that the ingredients in it are not funneled to the benzyl.

4) Please look into the term "lag time" -- water and isopropyl alcohol are long gone before **** things starts penetrating.

The isopropyl is, and one to look up for you is steam evaporation. Anything dissolved in water is, at least for a portion swept with the water upon evaporation. Since this is a stage in which you have micellar formation, that includes not only ingredients but benzyl alcohol as well.

5) Glycerol increases the water content of the skin, which is most helpful with these pesky hydrophillic compounds. It is also useful for preventing dryness, irritation, etc.

"Larger amounts of water are either absorbed in the corneocytes or exist as a separate phase in the SC intercellulare regions"

"Later, however, it was postulated that SC hydration does not lead to an overall decrease in the intercellular lipid disorder"

Quotes from Mak et al, 1991 and Suhonen et al, 1999.

That is of course, if glycerol with water bound to it, as exists in Lipoderm, could even pass the skin, which is, as you yourself stated earlier, quite unlikely.

[Thanks for playing, though

Here's your ass bro I'm getting tired of handing it to you. But yes, I did enjoy playing. Better luck next time.

You are so stupid to let me provoke you, you knew I was going to bury you.

[WYD02]

Alright Par, your move. You call BC a waste of time and a nobody, but he seems to raise some decent points in his argument. I invite both of you to continue this debate....lets refrain from insults as we have seen too many threads get side tracked a ruined for this reason alone. Keep this going, this is good stuff gentlemen.

[Big Cat]

yeah, sorry about that on my part too, the dude just has a way of getting under my skin sometime.

[Big Cat]

Ladies and gentlemen, so far the great Par Deus. But anyway, if there are any more questions, i'd be happy to give you an honest, correct and direct answer.

[Par Deus]

I addressed his points.

He knows **** all about this.

Just like he knows **** all about leptin.

Just like he knows **** all about VAT and cortisol disfunction.

Like I said, do something worthwhile, make yourself somebody in our world, and it will be worth my time.

If some of you believe him, fine. There is not a thing I can say or do to convince such people, at this point, because such people are wholly ignorant of this subject.

Call me a pussy and declare yourself victorious.

I don't ****in' care.

It is 100% laughable to anyone who has a clue on these subjects.

I consider you a joke.

Lyle McDonald considers you a joke.

Pat Arnold considers you a joke.

Spook considers you a joke.

Not one person of science in this industry considers you anything but a joke (if they have even heard of you)

Guess why....?

'Cause you are a joke.

An incredibly insecure, ego-starved, borderline psychotic joke.

The great Par Deus has proven himself over and over again.

You haven't done a ****ing thing, except run your mouth.

I am sorry that you do not like how I treat you, but I got no love for hoes.

Never have.

Never will.

But, by all means, answer their questions

[canadian champ]

***** Fight!!!!! Wahoooooooo

[wojo]

so where can i get acetone?;-)

[Big Cat]

Originally Posted by wojo

so where can i get acetone?;-)

Local drug store.

[wojo]

nice i love absolved and was researching syntehance..thank god i suscribed to this thread a long time ago i forgot it existed..looks like im gonna try a acetone iso and ba homebrew(ghetto version of syntehance) of 4-ad 1t..tooo broke for syntehance.

thanx cat
ur the man.

[Big Cat]

Originally Posted by Par Deus

I addressed his points.

He knows **** all about this.

Just like he knows **** all about leptin.

Just like he knows **** all about VAT and cortisol disfunction.

Like I said, do something worthwhile, make yourself somebody in our world, and it will be worth my time.

If some of you believe him, fine. There is not a thing I can say or do to convince such people, at this point, because such people are wholly ignorant of this subject.

Call me a pussy and declare yourself victorious.

I don't ****in' care.

It is 100% laughable to anyone who has a clue on these subjects.

I consider you a joke.

Lyle McDonald considers you a joke.

Pat Arnold considers you a joke.

Spook considers you a joke.

Not one person of science in this industry considers you anything but a joke (if they have even heard of you)

Guess why....?

'Cause you are a joke.

An incredibly insecure, ego-starved, borderline psychotic joke.

The great Par Deus has proven himself over and over again.

You haven't done a ****ing thing, except run your mouth.

I am sorry that you do not like how I treat you, but I got no love for hoes.

Never have.

Never will.

But, by all means, answer their questions

And this, my friends, is everything Par Deus stands for. He calls himself a person of science. He doesn't have a scientific bone in his body. He doesn't even have a degree remotely related to science, established himself in the least bit as a scientist or anything related. The only thing he does well, is read abstracts and compile a list a of references he's hardly even read (just look at his comprehension of isopropyl and acetone in the TPDS) whenever he thinks he has something new and exciting, not even caring if it will actually work, let alone be worth the money

He is currently drowning, attacking anyone for an opinion that differs from his, because it may lose him one customer. Trolling message boards like bodybuilding.com like a common post-whore, in the hopes of slightly retaining some sort of clientele. Avantlabs, is drowning. And Caleb's pitiful reaction, and panicky accusation's prove it.

You see, what he says is correct, all these people don't think much of me at all. I'm not going to hide the fact that I made mistakes in the past. I made a lot, and the further you go back, the more laughable they probably are. But now we are several years, many studies and one and a half (science) degrees later. Caleb is still the same pseudo-scientist he was then, while me, that same chump he refers to earlier, is now running circles around him. And he doesn't even realize that in ridiculing me, he ridicules himself, because I've already demonstrated i'm better now, and still growing.

This lowly individual is so deluded he even thinks I would pimp something on this board. This board, which is known for its homebrewing, for people with knowledge, sharing information and helping each other find cheaper and more effective alternatives to the crap people like him put out. Give me a break.

Unlike your own board Par, people here actually think and help each other, instead of kissing up to the great leader. The science has been posted, it has been discussed. I hadn't cried victory, Icried for more discussion, because that in the end, is what helps the sport. Remember ? That's what it used to be about. The science and helping people. But I doubt you remember. But I will cry victory now, this response shows you fell off. It tells me I'm finally at a level above you, and with so much room left to grow its amazing.

So people, I presented you with the facts. Par can't even adress the facts, he would much rather insult me and bring up my past mistakes. Past mistakes that I made in a process of learning and helping others. Mistakes that made me the man that just handed him his ass. I'm not ashamed of where I came from, anymore than you are pitiful.

So close this little chapter, and lets get back to discussing this topic. Do we have any other questions or issues that need to be adressed ?