Yohimbine Homebrew

Page 6 of 7 First ... 4567 Last
  1. I am faster than 80% of all snakes
    Dwight Schrute's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  221 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Age
    41
    Posts
    12,913
    Answers
    0

    Its always been like that here Cat.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/image...et/twitter.png http://anabolicminds.com/forum/image...t/facebook.png

    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  2. Moderator
    WYD02's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    818
    Answers
    0

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Cat
    I can scan the whole studies for you guys in case you want to read them. You need the whole study anyway to see the ratio's they use anyway, although I posted them above. You can also look up Nimni's 1989 patent for free at the US patent website.

    I can also post some references showing where Par Deus ****ed up and why, as demonstrated in the literature, or why skulpt didn't work etc. Since you guys have a nice little homebrew thingy going here.

    I think we should do this more often, have like open source projects for homebrewers to discuss various strategies and improvements on products. Kinda like open source software codes.
    I think I speak for everyone when I say we'd love to read the rest of the study... especially if you'll hook it up without us having to buy it . I know I'd like to read it..... by the way, in the acne study cited w/ use of erythromycin...the prescription acne medication Benzamycin approved in 11/2000 (erythromycin 3%-benzoyl peroxide 5% topical gel) is really close to what Nimni used. It's highly effective...used it myself back in the day and it worked much better than RETIN-A and Differin... Fun facts..
  3. Moderator
    WYD02's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    818
    Answers
    0

    Oh and while we are on the subject, couple of questions... It has been discovered that the "special delivery solvent" suggested in Par's write up is benzyl alcohol. I am making the assumption that benzyl alcohol is what he is referring to when discussing how lipoderm-Y is able to bypass systemic uptake of the dermal microvasculature. 1. Am I correct with the assumption? If so...2. Why is this the case?
    •   
       

  4. Board Supporter
    Big Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    111
    Answers
    0

    Ok,let me give you a short breakdown, I've read about 25 studies over the past week on percutaneous delivery alone, and my head is about to explode. I mean I spent 2 hours in the basement of the library digging up studies, some that predate 1950. Who would have though there was so much lit ?

    Anyway, Nimni's TPDS is based on the fact that subQ delivery had been demonstrated ( a nice review of this can be found in Maibach and Guy, 1982) and that the nutrients most prone to this were highly amphiphillic (both polar and unpolar), like for instance Thyroid hormones. This was before specific attempts for this type of delivery were made. Nimni based himself on research showing that benzyl can form a micelle together with an organic compound in an aqueous environment. Benzyl is an amphiphillic molecule, and if it can carry these unpolar molecules as a micelle, then they would technically be able to reach the subQ tissue.

    Nimni devised a trans-phase system consisting of two phases. The benzyl carrier, which is amphiphillic and has a high boiling point (less evaporation) and then a more volatile second phase, in Nimni's case a well chosen mix of isopropanol and acetone. Technically any volatile organic solvent would do, but what makes this a beautiful mix is that both isopropanol, and especially acetone, have been shown to enhance the permeability of the skin. Benzyl itself being amphiphillic, is a good penetration enhancer as well.

    When applied to the skin, the second phase evaporates and the compounds are funneled into the benzyl, forming amphiphillic micelles that pass the skin and reach the subQ tissue. The system as is, is simple, cheap, ingenious and quite effective.

    Of course enhancing it is a possibility, but this delivers a number of problems. First of all most penetration enhancers are either amphiphillic of fatty, and all of them good solvents for organic compounds. Since the PE's traverse the skin as well, they may dissolve the compound, meaning it doesn't have a benzyl carrier, resulting in systemic uptake. So the trick is really to find PE's that you can use in very minimal quantities, with maximum effect.

    Another difficulty is application. Ideally you would make it thicker, or work it into a gel, much like the aloe vera idea discussed here. makes sense, since occlusion can enehance skin permeation. But then you basically **** up the TPDS, because the second phase cannot evaporate resulting in the fact that it too traverses the skin to a larger degree, with a large portion of compound dissolved, and as a result, again, systemic delivery.

    These are basically the initial flaws anyone could pick out of the Lipoderm formulas. It contains glycerol and water. There is no evidence that glycerol absorbs, but lets assume it does. The idea is to create excess water in the skin to disturb the polar heads. Except excess water is rapidly taken up into the keratinocytes and has been shown to have no effect in and of itself (Suhone, Bouwstra, Urtti, 1999). So it wouldn't work. Now he adss water to it as well. Glycerol is hygroscopic and attaches to the water creating glycerol 3H2O, which DEFINITELY cannot pass the skin to any large degree. Together with the carbomers and the large volume of PE's, this basically ****s up your system since a lot goes systemic when its either dissolved in the PE's instead of the benzyl, or in the second phase, since that fails to evaporate properly.

    So basically inefficient, pricey PE's in a large volume that **** up the one revolutionary thing about this formula. That and the fact that he left out acetone, while it is a better enhancer of skin permeation than isopropanol is.

    Once you have this all worked out (add benzyl to compounds until completely dissolved, so you have enough benzyl, then add 50/50 mixture of acetone and isopropanol and if you want, any PE that can be used in very low concentrations.

    On to part two. We remember skulpt don't we ? Well, that didn't work. Why not ? DMSO is amphiphillic, it has been found in subQ tissue after apllication. Well basically since its not an effective carrier. the DMSO passes the skin first and then draws the compound through. Resulting in systemic uptake. However the same study that demonstrated this also demonstrated an assymetrical approach works better. Applying DMSO first and then the product, required less DMSO and resulted in greater uptake. So if you want, you can apply DMSO to the skin several minutes before applying your TPDS mixture and get enhanced benefits, much enhanced benefits, especially over time.

    Transdermal delivery has been shown to downregulate with time, but products using DMSO were less prone to this. Probably because resistance occurs in the lipids of the skin and DMSO like compounds are the only ones that affect the protein layer as well, thus experiencing less resistance. So this is definitely a smart idea.

    Just some thoughts to kick around. I'll see if I can scan the studies for you guys this weekend.
  5. Board Supporter
    Big Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    111
    Answers
    0

    Here is the study on indomethacin, the most interesting of the two. I'm sorry for the shabby work, I don't work with a scanner very often and if anybody can tell me how I can adobe professional to get all the scans into one file, that may help me to make the next one a tad easier to make. In the mean time enjoy.
  6. Board Supporter
    Big Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    111
    Answers
    0

    I didn't see you adressing the points I made. So what are you going to do ? Duck and sling insults and defamations at me, or are you gonna stand up and be the man you claim you are ? Cause I have ****load more studies here that I know you would love to know about ...
    Yeah, that's what I thought ....
  7. Board Sponsor
    Board Sponsor
    Par Deus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    179
    Answers
    0

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Cat
    Yeah, that's what I thought ....
    Sorry, doood, completely forgot about you.

    We just released 5 new products and the sales and enthusiasm has been overwhelming, so it has taken all of my focus and all of my time.

    Pardon me for forgetting about a nobody, who has done nothing, but is trying to make a name for himself to pimp some products to be, by taking on the King.

    Get your free ads somewhere else -- anyone who wants to see how easily you are dealt with by yours truly can read the leptin/LeptiGen "debate".
  8. Board Supporter
    Big Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    111
    Answers
    0

    Quote Originally Posted by Par Deus
    Sorry, doood, completely forgot about you.

    We just released 5 new products and the sales and enthusiasm has been overwhelming, so it has taken all of my focus and all of my time.

    Pardon me for forgetting about a nobody, who has done nothing, but is trying to make a name for himself to pimp some products to be, by taking on the King.

    Get your free ads somewhere else -- anyone who wants to see how easily you are dealt with by yours truly can read the leptin/LeptiGen "debate".
    That's what I thought, wimp.

    yeah, I heard what's been keeping you busy these past days and it sure as hell wasn't the release of your products.

    I really love what you said about the ads too. Shall I start a thread on synthol so you can hijack it and tell all these lovely people about sytenhance ? Or will you be taking out a special 6-page ad report. No thank you, I prefer to let my brain speak for me, rather than pimping crap.
  9. Board Sponsor
    Board Sponsor
    Par Deus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    179
    Answers
    0

    Here is BC making an ass of himself with one of the other leptin experts and brilliant minds in our field, Lyle McDonald (just need to get bitch slapped by Spook, now)

    http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/For...&threadid=9329





    Quote Originally Posted by Big Cat
    That's what I thought, wimp.

    yeah, I heard what's been keeping you busy these past days and it sure as hell wasn't the release of your products.

    I really love what you said about the ads too. Shall I start a thread on synthol so you can hijack it and tell all these lovely people about sytenhance ? Or will you be taking out a special 6-page ad report. No thank you, I prefer to let my brain speak for me, rather than pimping crap.
  10. Board Supporter
    Big Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    111
    Answers
    0

    Quote Originally Posted by Par Deus
    Here is BC making an ass of himself with one of the other leptin experts and brilliant minds in our field, Lyle McDonald (just need to get bitch slapped by Spook, now)

    http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/For...&threadid=9329
    Hey, what's the matter ? You too chicken to discuss the matters at hand ? You want to keep running and hiding and posting **** that isn't relevant ?

    You fell off, ****er. You're nobody, you're so pitiful.

    So what's it gonna be ? You gonna show me what you are all about ? Or you want to hide some more.

    Wimp.
  11. Board Sponsor
    Board Sponsor
    Par Deus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    179
    Answers
    0

    Do you understand the concept of "waste of time"??

    That is what you are. You are no one, and I gain nothing from arguing with you.

    I abused you without mercy the other times you tried to show how smart you are.

    Am I really expected to address everything every single little nobody says, until the end of time, until THEY get tired of buzzing around my head?

    Get real.

    Do something significant, make yourself somebody in this industry, bring out 10+ badass, innovative products, run a successful company, get hand picked to do an article in Muscle and Fitness by their PhD from Yale science editor.

    Then, you will be worth my time, and we can have some fun.

    The fly does not tell me if I am going to swat him or not, and him viewing me as a "wimp" is merely good comedy.

    The fly just buzzes around until I decide to squish him.









    Quote Originally Posted by Big Cat
    Hey, what's the matter ? You too chicken to discuss the matters at hand ? You want to keep running and hiding and posting **** that isn't relevant ?

    You fell off, ****er. You're nobody, you're so pitiful.

    So what's it gonna be ? You gonna show me what you are all about ? Or you want to hide some more.

    Wimp.
  12. Board Supporter
    Big Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    111
    Answers
    0

    Quote Originally Posted by Par Deus
    Do you understand the concept of "waste of time"??

    That is what you are. You are no one, and I gain nothing from arguing with you.

    I abused you without mercy the other times you tried to show how smart you are.

    Am I really expected to address everything every single little nobody says, until the end of time, until THEY get tired of buzzing around my head?

    Get real.

    Do something significant, make yourself somebody in this industry, bring out 10+ badass, innovative products, run a successful company, get hand picked to do an article in Muscle and Fitness by their PhD from Yale science editor.

    Then, you will be worth my time, and we can have some fun.

    The fly does not tell me if I am going to swat him or not, and him viewing me as a "wimp" is merely good comedy.

    The fly just buzzes around until I decide to squish him.
    Do you realize how stupid you look now ?

    You are basically saying its a waste of time to adress genuine things that matter, but its not a waste of time to come and comment on my person ?

    Much as I like the attention you are giving me, I'm sure the AM members would be more interested in facts and science instead of your opinions of me.

    Chicken-**** bitch.
  13. The True Warrior is one who conquers oneself
    hamper19's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  191 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Age
    35
    Posts
    1,474
    Answers
    0

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Cat
    yeah, sorry about that on my part too, the dude just has a way of getting under my skin sometime.

    no pun intended?
  14. The True Warrior is one who conquers oneself
    hamper19's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  191 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Age
    35
    Posts
    1,474
    Answers
    0

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Cat
    yeah, sorry about that on my part too, the dude just has a way of getting under my skin sometime.
    no pun intended
  15. Board Sponsor
    Board Sponsor
    Par Deus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    179
    Answers
    0

    Hehe.

    Fine, I took the bait and went ahead and took you apart on bb.com.

    SQUISH:

    Par Said:


    1) Octopamine interferes with MAO, which breaks down norepinephrine, which is lipolytic, no??
    In addition, some will go deep to the adipose, into the muscle, where beta3 is moe useful in humans. Some will also go systemic, and make it to muscle, where beta 3 is more useful in humans. This is all in the write-up.

    2) Acetone was not included because it does not do much, IMO, for localization. Isopropyl still evaporates far faster than benzyl alcohol. It is gone long before the lag-time at the stratum corneum is over and everything actually starts partitioning. So is the water. It is a good penetration enhancers, but I have several great ones in the formula.

    Acetone would also increase the drying and irritation of the skin, which is bad for user compatability, but could also screw up penetration of hydrophillics, long-term

    3) Which are you referring to?? I surely hope you do not think a significant amount of water diffusses into the body across the skin barrier. If you do, you really need to do some real transdermal research. The rest are for penetration enhancement, not localization of delivery. And, with hydrophillic actives, excellent penetration enhancers are a must.

    4) Please look into the term "lag time" -- water and isopropyl alcohol are long gone before **** things starts penetrating.

    5) Glycerol increases the water content of the skin, which is most helpful with these pesky hydrophillic compounds. It is also useful for preventing dryness, irritation, etc.

    Thanks for playing, though






    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Big Cat


    Well these are some that Par has been dodging :

    1) Why does lipoderm ultra contain octopamine when it has been shown that subQ fat barely contains B3 receptors and that the B3 is downregulated when the A2 is blocked (as with yohimbine ?)

    2) Why does it not use Acetone as in Nimni's original design ? It was clearly demonstrated that acetone was a better permeation enhancer than isopropanol, and more volatile, creating an excellent combination for a two phase evaporation before the product is funneled into the benzyl and carried across ?

    3) Why is their such a large volume of relatively inactive, non-volatile permeation enhancers. A lot of these are good solvents for the active ingredients and do traverse the skin, reducing micellar formation with benzyl alcohol and a larger systemic uptake is the result

    4) Next to that volume, carbomers are added as well as glycerol+water. All resulting in occlusion, which may help permeability, but results in less evaporation of the primary phase, resulting in more systemic uptake since isopropanol, with active ingredients dissolved, is now traversing the skin.

    5) Why add glycerol at all , I've seen no evidence that it readily penetrates the skin, and its basically useless if you add water from the get go, since its so hygroscopic you would form a glycerol 3H2O complex that will have even more difficultly traversing the skin, decreases permeation and results, possibly, in more occlusion and less evaporation of the primary phase.

    Answers to these would be greately appreciated by the members at AM as well.



    Well i hope I managed to adress some, if you have more concerns, feel free to post them. [/B]
  16. Board Supporter
    Big Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    111
    Answers
    0

    Quote Originally Posted by Par Deus
    Hehe.
    1) Octopamine interferes with MAO, which breaks down norepinephrine, which is lipolytic, no??
    In addition, some will go deep to the adipose, into the muscle, where beta3 is moe useful in humans. Some will also go systemic, and make it to muscle, where beta 3 is more useful in humans. This is all in the write-up.
    [/b]

    This is all unproven, unsubstantiated and pulled right out of your ass. You know as well as I do it barely penetrates deeper layers in vivo.

    2) Acetone was not included because it does not do much, IMO, for localization. Isopropyl still evaporates far faster than benzyl alcohol. It is gone long before the lag-time at the stratum corneum is over and everything actually starts partitioning. So is the water. It is a good penetration enhancers, but I have several great ones in the formula.
    Of course it is gone swiftly, it evaporates in minutes, which is why Nimni used it. The fact remains that both merely make the skin more permeable, neither has a direct influence on local delivery, but acetone is the better enhancer (onken and moyer, 1963) and is the more volatile solvent, more conducive of the two-phase system. But probably better as Nimni envisioned it to have a dual system for the first phase that evaporates in two steps to ensure you get a funneling effect to the benzyl stage.

    That the isopropyl evaporates wasn't even the issue, your large pool of PE's doesn't evaporate and makes for a good solvent for the products as well, i'd worry about that more. So why bother taking out acetone ? Its cheap, its easy to get, enlighten me.

    Your Penetration enhancers basically suck. Even Patrick Arnold saw that. They are very ineffective and require larger amounts than is suited for the TPD system.

    Acetone would also increase the drying and irritation of the skin, which is bad for user compatability, but could also screw up penetration of hydrophillics, long-term


    Actually irritation of the skin makes it more permeable, you do realise that ? At the SC actions are mostly on the lipid layer, except if you use DMSO or related substances. The best course of action there is to dehydrate it. Water is the least penetrable substance to the stratum corneum. Which is why water influx and efflux was long used as a standard for permeation rates. Of course if you had bothered to read up on skin physiology and some of the older research you would know this.

    3) Which are you referring to?? I surely hope you do not think a significant amount of water diffusses into the body across the skin barrier. If you do, you really need to do some real transdermal research. The rest are for penetration enhancement, not localization of delivery. And, with hydrophillic actives, excellent penetration enhancers are a must.


    I don't, but apparently you do, seemingly so convinced that glycerol will result in hydration of the skin. That is if it could pass the skin to begin with, which it can't if you add water to it, since it is so hygroscopic it would immediately bond to the water leaving you with a large molecule that would never pass the skin. I'm also aware the rest are for penetratuon enhancement, the only thing pertaining to local delivery in your formula is the TPDS. You apparently didn't bother to read up on the fact that benzyl does not cause micellar formation in lipophillic environments, which means that if you have a substantial amount of lipophillic solvents, such as your PE's, then your ingredients remain dissolved, resulting in systemic uptake. You also cause a more substantial bodiful whole that is less conducive to the evaporation of the first phase, resulting small portions of isopropanol not evaporating and passing the skin, so that the ingredients in it are not funneled to the benzyl.

    4) Please look into the term "lag time" -- water and isopropyl alcohol are long gone before **** things starts penetrating.


    The isopropyl is, and one to look up for you is steam evaporation. Anything dissolved in water is, at least for a portion swept with the water upon evaporation. Since this is a stage in which you have micellar formation, that includes not only ingredients but benzyl alcohol as well.

    5) Glycerol increases the water content of the skin, which is most helpful with these pesky hydrophillic compounds. It is also useful for preventing dryness, irritation, etc.


    "Larger amounts of water are either absorbed in the corneocytes or exist as a separate phase in the SC intercellulare regions"

    "Later, however, it was postulated that SC hydration does not lead to an overall decrease in the intercellular lipid disorder"

    Quotes from Mak et al, 1991 and Suhonen et al, 1999.

    That is of course, if glycerol with water bound to it, as exists in Lipoderm, could even pass the skin, which is, as you yourself stated earlier, quite unlikely.

    [Thanks for playing, though
    Here's your ass bro I'm getting tired of handing it to you. But yes, I did enjoy playing. Better luck next time.

    You are so stupid to let me provoke you, you knew I was going to bury you.
  17. Moderator
    WYD02's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    818
    Answers
    0

    Alright Par, your move. You call BC a waste of time and a nobody, but he seems to raise some decent points in his argument. I invite both of you to continue this debate....lets refrain from insults as we have seen too many threads get side tracked a ruined for this reason alone. Keep this going, this is good stuff gentlemen.
  18. Board Supporter
    Big Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    111
    Answers
    0

    yeah, sorry about that on my part too, the dude just has a way of getting under my skin sometime.
  19. Board Supporter
    Big Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    111
    Answers
    0

    Ladies and gentlemen, so far the great Par Deus. But anyway, if there are any more questions, i'd be happy to give you an honest, correct and direct answer.
  20. Board Sponsor
    Board Sponsor
    Par Deus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    179
    Answers
    0

    I addressed his points.

    He knows **** all about this.

    Just like he knows **** all about leptin.

    Just like he knows **** all about VAT and cortisol disfunction.

    Like I said, do something worthwhile, make yourself somebody in our world, and it will be worth my time.

    If some of you believe him, fine. There is not a thing I can say or do to convince such people, at this point, because such people are wholly ignorant of this subject.

    Call me a ***** and declare yourself victorious.

    I don't ****in' care.

    It is 100% laughable to anyone who has a clue on these subjects.

    I consider you a joke.

    Lyle McDonald considers you a joke.

    Pat Arnold considers you a joke.

    Spook considers you a joke.

    Not one person of science in this industry considers you anything but a joke (if they have even heard of you)

    Guess why....?

    'Cause you are a joke.

    An incredibly insecure, ego-starved, borderline psychotic joke.

    The great Par Deus has proven himself over and over again.

    You haven't done a ****ing thing, except run your mouth.

    I am sorry that you do not like how I treat you, but I got no love for hoes.

    Never have.

    Never will.

    But, by all means, answer their questions
  21. Registered User
    canadian champ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    843
    Answers
    0

    Bitch Fight!!!!! Wahoooooooo
  22. Gold Member
    wojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    1,908
    Answers
    0

    so where can i get acetone?;-)
  23. Board Supporter
    Big Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    111
    Answers
    0

    Quote Originally Posted by wojo
    so where can i get acetone?;-)
    Local drug store.
  24. Gold Member
    wojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    1,908
    Answers
    0

    nice i love absolved and was researching syntehance..thank god i suscribed to this thread a long time ago i forgot it existed..looks like im gonna try a acetone iso and ba homebrew(ghetto version of syntehance) of 4-ad 1t..tooo broke for syntehance.

    thanx cat
    ur the man.
  25. Board Supporter
    Big Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    111
    Answers
    0

    Quote Originally Posted by Par Deus
    I addressed his points.

    He knows **** all about this.

    Just like he knows **** all about leptin.

    Just like he knows **** all about VAT and cortisol disfunction.

    Like I said, do something worthwhile, make yourself somebody in our world, and it will be worth my time.

    If some of you believe him, fine. There is not a thing I can say or do to convince such people, at this point, because such people are wholly ignorant of this subject.

    Call me a ***** and declare yourself victorious.

    I don't ****in' care.

    It is 100% laughable to anyone who has a clue on these subjects.

    I consider you a joke.

    Lyle McDonald considers you a joke.

    Pat Arnold considers you a joke.

    Spook considers you a joke.

    Not one person of science in this industry considers you anything but a joke (if they have even heard of you)

    Guess why....?

    'Cause you are a joke.

    An incredibly insecure, ego-starved, borderline psychotic joke.

    The great Par Deus has proven himself over and over again.

    You haven't done a ****ing thing, except run your mouth.

    I am sorry that you do not like how I treat you, but I got no love for hoes.

    Never have.

    Never will.

    But, by all means, answer their questions
    And this, my friends, is everything Par Deus stands for. He calls himself a person of science. He doesn't have a scientific bone in his body. He doesn't even have a degree remotely related to science, established himself in the least bit as a scientist or anything related. The only thing he does well, is read abstracts and compile a list a of references he's hardly even read (just look at his comprehension of isopropyl and acetone in the TPDS) whenever he thinks he has something new and exciting, not even caring if it will actually work, let alone be worth the money

    He is currently drowning, attacking anyone for an opinion that differs from his, because it may lose him one customer. Trolling message boards like bodybuilding.com like a common post-whore, in the hopes of slightly retaining some sort of clientele. Avantlabs, is drowning. And Caleb's pitiful reaction, and panicky accusation's prove it.

    You see, what he says is correct, all these people don't think much of me at all. I'm not going to hide the fact that I made mistakes in the past. I made a lot, and the further you go back, the more laughable they probably are. But now we are several years, many studies and one and a half (science) degrees later. Caleb is still the same pseudo-scientist he was then, while me, that same chump he refers to earlier, is now running circles around him. And he doesn't even realize that in ridiculing me, he ridicules himself, because I've already demonstrated i'm better now, and still growing.

    This lowly individual is so deluded he even thinks I would pimp something on this board. This board, which is known for its homebrewing, for people with knowledge, sharing information and helping each other find cheaper and more effective alternatives to the crap people like him put out. Give me a break.

    Unlike your own board Par, people here actually think and help each other, instead of kissing up to the great leader. The science has been posted, it has been discussed. I hadn't cried victory, Icried for more discussion, because that in the end, is what helps the sport. Remember ? That's what it used to be about. The science and helping people. But I doubt you remember. But I will cry victory now, this response shows you fell off. It tells me I'm finally at a level above you, and with so much room left to grow its amazing.

    So people, I presented you with the facts. Par can't even adress the facts, he would much rather insult me and bring up my past mistakes. Past mistakes that I made in a process of learning and helping others. Mistakes that made me the man that just handed him his ass. I'm not ashamed of where I came from, anymore than you are pitiful.

    So close this little chapter, and lets get back to discussing this topic. Do we have any other questions or issues that need to be adressed ?
  26. Board Supporter
    Big Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    111
    Answers
    0

    Quote Originally Posted by wojo
    nice i love absolved and was researching syntehance..thank god i suscribed to this thread a long time ago i forgot it existed..looks like im gonna try a acetone iso and ba homebrew(ghetto version of syntehance) of 4-ad 1t..tooo broke for syntehance.

    thanx cat
    ur the man.
    Just wait, I'm working on something that will work considerably better than this junk Par puts out. And both for the Lipo/absolved, as for the sytenhance, I have ingredients that are not only more interesting and effective, but that aren't even necessarily prohormones or anything related. Meaning they will still exist when the ban comes.

    And as soon as i can get them in production, I will gladly discuss the issues that make it so much more effective so that homebrewers can enjoy it too. I'm not as concerned about my dime as Par is, I'm still a scientist and a bodybuilder first.
  27. I am faster than 80% of all snakes
    Dwight Schrute's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  221 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Age
    41
    Posts
    12,913
    Answers
    0

    I called Maltodextrin a "fat" once a long time ago. I was just reminded of the big mistakes I've made. J-Rod will always have that on me. Even angry clowns can be complete morons at times Ok sorry, back to the discussion at hand.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/image...et/twitter.png http://anabolicminds.com/forum/image...t/facebook.png

    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
  28. Board Supporter
    Big Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    111
    Answers
    0

    Oh, I'm sure I made dumber ones than that. But I'm equally confident that the mistakes Par Deus makes here and in his other products will seem just as laughable to me in a few years. In fact they are well under way. The same way we laugh at some of the common practices in bodybuilding in the past.
  29. Board Sponsor
    Board Sponsor
    Par Deus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    179
    Answers
    0

    Actually, I have a bachelor's in Health and Sports Sciences, and i was pre-med for 2 years, so I have also had 4 semesters of chemistry (in addition to all of the basics like human anatomy, human phys., exercise phys, kinesiology, etc.)

    But, of course, 99.9% of my knowledge is indeed self taught.

    Here is some good reading on just what a "scientist" Big Cat is, and why I no longer waste my time deal with him, except in summary form (and, why it took Spook all of 2 weeks to go from getting his ass kissed with tongue by Big Cat to thinking him just as much of a fraud as i think him):



    "Here is why we consider Big Cat a waste of time, for those who care:


    Here, he makes his appearance to attack Leptigen -- note the poster who mentioned not seeing him for a while (he had thrown a fit and exited bb.com's supp forums for about a year previous to fairly recently)

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...highlight=fraud

    Then, after I point out his shortcomings in knowledge, intelligence, and integrity, he comes back with an article in bodybuilding.com to attack Leptigen, which repeats most of the same nonsense.

    His article and my rebuttal can be found here -- and, toward the end, there is a copy of a second article he wrote for bb.com on the matter, and my follow-up.

    http://forum.avantlabs.com/?act=ST&f=1&t=7...=7935&hl=fraud&


    He sticks with hiding behind articles for awhile, until I was safely away at the Arnold (he also wrote an article attacking LipoDerm or Ab-Solved -- can't recall which), then when I am safely away at the Arnold, he decides to attack Ab-Solved on the board, again in typical ignorant but not afraid to state things as fact Big Cat fashion. Again, I expose him.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...&highlight=fact

    Here is him "schooling" Lyle McDonald on leptin, as well.

    http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/sho...p?threadid=9329

    Here, Spook grows tired of his nonsense and calls him on it (it is particularly funny because Big Cat had previously kissed Spook's ass quite a bit):

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...threadid=263933

    Keep in mind that before myself, topical fat loss products were a joke, before Lyle, no one in bodybuilding had heard of leptin (and, I have written as much as anyone and helped popularize it on the boards more than anyone), and no one talked about VAT and cortisol and Metabolic Syndrome and 7-keto in the same sentence before us.

    We have written successful books, articles, designed supplements people rave about, etc., on these matters, for YEARS, while Big Cat is published in bb.com, which publishes everything that is sent to them, and has done little more than read our own articles and a a few article over a weekend, for his knowledge on the matters he is now suddenly an expert on and "schooling" us in."


    And Spook:

    Ok here it is.
    A little background is in order. Big Cat and I had gotten in to it a couple of times before and whenever he started to lose an argument he started making things up and this had irritated me. Specifically he would reference a conversation from a different thread but twist it all around and lie about what was said to make me look foolish. I assume he did this in hopes that users were to lazy to go to the other thread and read what was actually said.

    Anyway in this instance he and Par had gotten in to it yet again about transdermal delivery mechanisms. It was getting fairly heated. This I could care less about but again he pulled the same stunt. In an effort to make par look foolish he misquoted me saying that in a previous discussion I had said ¡§SAT tissue behaves just like VAT tissue¡¨ and how he corrected me about this. When in truth I had said no such thing. I called him on it quite politely BTW. I said stop doing that and I posted a link to the thread he was referring to so users could see what I had actually said. It consisted of two posts to this thread.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...ok&pagenumber=2

    See about half way down on page two. Clearly I said no such that that VAT behaves just like SAT tissue.

    He came back with what is below which basically says he dose not care that he misquoted me because that was not the point he was trying to make. I was angry because when he misquotes me it makes me look bad. So I responded with this. Please note that this is hardly the first time he has done this. You probably want to read these threads to get an understanding of what I am talking about. Look towards the end of each one. As he loses ground in each argument he starts making things up. This is what I was angry about and when he accused me of being a huckster and supplement pimp I was outraged.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...highlight=spook
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...highlight=spook
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...highlight=spook

    Specifically he accused me of pimping Absolved in that thread I just linked up above. Clearly there was no mention of absolved and I even complemented him on his thread.

    So what I decided to do was gather several instances of him fabricating things and post them all in one place so people could see what kind of person they were dealing with. What follows is my response.

    To make it easier to read his words are in red.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Spook, I couldn't have cared less what the actual argument was, the point I was making in this thread was that I knew a **** of a lot more about deep layer SAT than Par Douche ever did, and I certainly did not "get it from him".
    So its ok for you to misquote me and disparage my reputation because you were trying to prove a point? I dont care how much you know about fat cells or when you knew it. My beef with you is because you directly misquoted me which makes me look bad. If you would just say ¡§gee I am sorry I did not really remember the specifics of our conversation. I did not mean to misrepresent what you said¡¨. Then it would be no big deal.

    Secondly you know damn well your reasoning for mentioning the VAT properties of deep layer SAT were in some hopeless attempt to save what was left of ab-solved's credibility, by likening Par's little promo writeups on how reducing cortisol adresses VAT when it was more than obvious a simple lipolytic product would be infinitely more effective in that area than 7-oxo.
    You little SOB. How dare you call in to question my integrity. I linked up the thread. Reread it again you jackass. Sorry mods for my language but am I supposed to stay civil when someone flat out says that I am a liar. That the information I presented what inaccurate in an attempt to sell product. Big Cat has essentially said I am a huckster and a pimp, and those are fighting words. I am professional but I am not Jesus and my patience is finite.

    If you reread that thread I was merely pointing out a flaw in your reasoning. I did this as a favor. I enjoy it when someone points out a flaw in my reasoning so that I do not make the same mistake later. I even complemented you on thread in question because I think its great when anyone tries to further the availability of knowledge in these areas. But, nowhere did I ever even once mention Absolved. If you actually would read what I wrote I said that indeed your ultimate conclusion was correct. That being that DHEA would be superior for localized SAT loss. Its just that one of your statements on the way to that conclusion was incorrect or at least incomplete.

    Lastly, either stay out of this or get in on the action. If you know jack about transdermal delivery, then read. As Par indicated, entirely correctly, I didn't know **** all about TD's 4 years ago. In fact I didn't know that much about it 1 year ago. Now I'm running circles around Mr Gore (I invented local delivery my ass), I mean Stone, so fast it isn't funny.
    Fine I will get in on the discussion. Primairly because I am sick of your lies. That is right I am flat out calling you a liar. You have attacked my reputation and for that I will not sit still.

    But instead of just saying you¡¦re a liar and an ass I will provide definitive evidence.

    P.S. Par I know you have been waiting for this, so enjoy ļ


    I think the major problem here is that you feel free to speak authoritatively on subjects which you no nothing about.

    I imagine I am in the same boat that many people reading this thread are. I do not consider myself to be an expert on transdermal delivery. So I can not in good conscience judge the merits of the arguments presented. So I have to base my assessment on the integrity of the individuals in question. In my mind your credibility is completely gone. Because in past instances where we have discussed issue in which I do have a modicum of expertise, I have found you to speak authoritatively on subjects where you are woefully ignorant.

    For some unknown reason you feel its ok to speak as if you are an expert even when you have no idea what you are talking about. So to me its like the boy who cried wolf. If you make unqualified claims continuously why should I believe what you are saying now.

    Case in point. I said:

    No I have not had time to research HEAT stack throughly yet. The other products I am well versed in. Again with the exception of topical delivery methods. My knowledge in that realm is minimal.

    I have only read about 50-60 papers on the subject and these three books so I would not consider myself knowledgable in that realm:

    Transdermal Delivery of Drugs,
    Mechanisms of Transdermal Drug Delivery,
    Development and Evaluation of Transdermal Drug Delivery Systems
    then Big Cat says this in an attempt to make me look foolish.

    However, not even you can deny that I made several very good points on other products, whatever you believe my motives to be. In fact so good that in most cases you refuse to adress them, such as is the case with Lipoderm (after boasting what you read about TD delivery) and HEAT.
    Boasting what I read about transdermal delivery? I think its painfully clear that I was saying how little I know about transdermal delivery. I think this is the difference between you and I. I do not think because I have read a couple of books and a handful of paper that I am an expert. You on the other hand feel the need to continuously spout nonsense and declare you expertise on matters which you know little about.

    That was not boasting you jackass that was me informing you and everyone else how ignorant I am on the subject.

    So that is lie number one. You say I boasted about my knowledge in a specific subject matter when the point was the exact opposite.


    Next, in relation to the idea of using DHEA in a localized carrier Big Cat said:

    Originally posted by Number 5
    Actually Par used to recommend this too:
    Funny how he only recommended it after I brought it up huh ?
    The date of this post was 5-29-2004

    But the thing is he knew damn well I suggested this over a year ago on Avant Labs site. I linked up a thread that I started on the subject in our debate about DHEA and 7-0x0-DHEA.

    Here is my post from that thread:

    see this thread from june of last year on my theory of how 7-oxo-DHEA works.

    http://forum.avantlabs.com/?act=ST&f=1&t=4432&hl=dhea&

    and here is the thred from march of last eyar where i proposed the use of DHEA + aromatase inhibitors for cutting.

    http://forum.avantlabs.com/?act=ST&f=12&t=...t=2782&hl=dhea&
    Again a second lie to attempt to disparage Avant Labs.

    Now not only does he lie but this is a blatant example of spouting his mouth off when he knows little about the subject.
    From our discussion of DHEA and 7-OXO-DHEA:
    I said:
    I think that his first mistake was in the asumption that VAT tissue is easily lost in all members of the population. Quite the contray. Allthough it is highly lipolytic and prone to apoptosis it also shows extreme resiliance in certain individuals. Mostly because of the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone-system.
    then he said

    Then blocking RAS would be a more suitable approach. and less drastic than eliminating a highly lipolytic factor. Although just as detrimental, since RAS activity promotes hypertrophy and fiber-type switching in favor of fast fibers. I have been doing some work on specific aldosterone blockers (so ACE doesn't have to be blocked), but sadly no suitable candidates have come up yet.
    then I said:

    My you are fond of glib and unqualified responses aren?t you. It would be nice if one could just sum up RAS by saying inhibiting it is detrimental to body composition. Things are a lot more complicated than that. I mean after all RAS activity is also associated with obesity, heart disease, and premature mortality. But let?s no mention those facts. I don?t get it are you trying to win an argument here or are we trying to have a discussion to determine what is optimal for body composition. All I see is rhetoric and glib responses.
    P.S. if you?re looking for aldosterone blockers both capzascin and evonodine block aldosterone release.
    Ok so now at this point you should be concerned. I mean he speaks as if he knows what hes talking about but he did not even know that evoda or cap blocked aldosterone release. And you think he would no such a thing since he said he as actively researching it and because he said he had thoroughly researched HEAT which contains Evoda.
    More alarming is the fact that he makes RAS activity sound good. For the record RAS is extremely complicated and I will leave my opinion for the paper I am going to publish on the subject. If I could sum it up for a forum post I would do so but its to long.
    Anyway take a gander at these studies and tell me if you think this is wise:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...0&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...8&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlere...bmedid=12840062
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...8&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...8&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...7&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...5&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...6&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...0&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...3&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...5&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...7&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...0&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...0&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...2&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...8&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...0&dopt=Abstract

    Anyway so points out just how little he understands.

    But then he had to go on and lie again.

    He then said.


    The latter may have been just critique, but then I was pointing out why it was better. The first point I made in response to you painting RAS as a dominant negative player for body composition, which is simply not the case. RAS manipulation is a key point in achieving maximal growth in a short amount of time. It is accompanied by an increase in blood pressure that could be detrimental in people suffering cardiovascular conditions (which I'm looking to adress with specific intervention by reducing aldosterone and aldosterone action). As with most things it remains a trade-off, however the positives of RAS, in terms of body composition, far outweigh the negatives. If you don't agree, I fear you may be seriously underestimating the potential of this system in mediating fast hypertrophy.
    Then I said:

    Where are you coming up with this stuff. I did not paint it as a dominant negative regulator for body composition only a dominant regulator of VAT tissue development.
    Again so that is lie number three. You mischaracterized what I said. At the very beginning of all of that all I said was that RAS modulates VAT growth. Not that it was a dominant negative regulator of body composition. I know I would never say this because I do not hold that opinion at all. My opinion will be presented in my article when its published.

    Still not satisfied he goes on to say:

    You painted it as being a uniform must-have approach to losing fat while failing to mention the positive effects of RAS and the fact that in the majority of non-obese people VAT is easily and readily lost ....

    Like I said, you seem to be so willing to point out that I paint only one side of the picture, while you so happily paint only the other side, which upon comparison is the worse side in the trade-off.
    Again where if ever have I said that RAS inhibition is a ¡§uniform must-have approach to losing fat¡¨. All I ever said was that in certain individuals VAT is hard to lose because of RAS.

    Finaly even more evidence that he has no idea what he is talking about. He says in relation to BCAA causeing fat gain (a criticism of his of leptigen):


    You fail to see the context, add it in with the effect from other ingredients and my other objections and suddenly its not so minor any more. And for the record, I do remove faster proteins and shift intake towards slower proteins in dieting athletes. Perhaps that too may contribute to the fact that my athletes rarely lose lean muscle mass. It would also make your theory that BCAA adipogenic qualities are minor.

    Its not the BCAA per se either, but rather free form BCAA, or the rate with which the BCAA hits the blood stream. The same goes for glucose. I use milk to the very last day of a diet. Milk contains 48 grams of carbs per liter, half of which are glucose. The only reason this intake of up to 150 grams of carbs per day extra does not result in problems with the diet is the slow and even release into the blood, causing less of an insulin spike. The same holds true for amino acids.
    Yet if he had done is research he would know that milk contains no less that 5 different mildly to moderately potent ACE inhibitors that reduce the RAS activity he loves so much.

    See the following studies:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=15051858

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=14692507

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=12755477

    I agree with him milk is great stuff. But the fact that he did not know this just goes to show how little real investigation he does. Just like the Evoda and cap thing. He speaks authoritatively yet has not done the research.

    Another example of this is in our discussion of Leptin he did not know that the JAK/STAT pathway was the dominant pathway in neurological tissue. Considering he speaks authoritatively on the subject you would think he should no this considering it is of the utmost important as leptin exerts almost all of its effects centrally in the brain.


    Finally I summed it up before better than I possibly could elsewhere.

    Well crap. I had no idea this had been going on. Thanks for clueing me in Par.

    Big Cat, I had been treating your with respect as an academic peer. But at this point forget it. That "article" you wrote was a cheesy editorial peice passed off as a peice of scientific literature.

    The ethical implications disgust me. I thought it was bad enough that your DHEA article faild to inform the readers of the possible downsies of use but this is far worse.

    I have no idea what your motivations are for this kind of behavior and I will not even venture a guess but I for one am through discussing anything with you, after reading this.

    Do you not have any concern for your readers?

    1. You fail to inform your readers of side effects and possible downsides?
    (DHEA's insulugenic capacity, It's effects on sex hormones, Its ability to induce anxiety, How it should not be used in most people who are overweight, how it should not be used orally, how it should not be used systemically, how it should notbe used by people with abdominal weight problems. RAS is wonderful for body composition but fail to mention the fact that its incredibly unhealthy)
    2. You extrapolate wildly from in-vitro research without informing your reader you are doing so.
    (DHEA being superior for fat loss, BCAA make you fat, zinc makes you fat, Vitamin E has signifigant androgenic potential,
    3. You state wild theories which is fine I do this too. But I inform my readers when I am speculating; You do not.
    (DHEA is superior for fat loss, RAS is great for body comp, BCAA contributes to fat gain).
    4. you flip flop and only paint half the picture for your readers. You seem more concerned with wining a argument than furthering anyones understanding of the underlyng physiology. (Just before in this very thread you claim zinc as counter productive while dieting but in your article you claim zinc is great and you have recomended it for years. Whcih is it?)
    5. You completely make stuff up (you acused me of claiming that RAS activity is detremental to body compositon when in fact all I said was that it is a signifigant contributer to VAT development).
    6. You denegrate our product feedback secton claiming it as biased yet for anyone who would like to go look you will see plenty of both positive and negative reviews.

    I will not speculate as to your motives as others have. But I will say I am done discussing anyting with you at this point. It seems abudently clear to me that a fruitful debate on the subject will be imposible as it is colored with your prejudices reguarding Caleb.

    This kind of behavior is completely unethical. Before you just shrug this off I plead with you to think about your audiance. This is far and away the most popular exercise site on the net. You get readers of all shapes and sizes here. When you give advice without altering your readers that you are theorizing or that you are only talking to a specific sub-population it can be DANGEROUS.

    Even the best of intentions missinformaton and opinions presented as facts are not only incorect, but can be harmful to the individual that reads and acts on such advice.

    This will be my last post in this thread, till I cool off. If anyone in the audiance has questions about the Leptigen line please start a new thread and I will be more than happy anwser them or debate any issues with anyone other than Big Cat.

    I mean even the worst article I have ever written which is my peice on fibrates (largely because I was in the desert in a tent in some god forsaken country, when I wrote it). I spent one third of the article talking about the downsides and side effects.

    I urge you as someone who people respect to spend a little more time educating your readers and a little less time trying to look smart.
    Your behavior is ridiculous. Stop trying to win arguments with people by making up lies and misquoting me. Learn some humility. When you don¡¦t know what your talking about say so. I do it all the time. There are so many posts over at avant where I say I was wrong about something or that I don¡¦t know the answer to something. You need to learn to do the same.

    For the readers all quotes were taken from the following threads (besides those already linked up.)

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...highlight=spook
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...highlight=spook
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...highlight=spook
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...highlight=spook
  30. Board Supporter
    Big Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    111
    Answers
    0

    haha, rich Caleb, rich. Again you manage to write half a book to attempt to discredit me, and you don't have time to adress the issues ? What's the matter ? Cat got your balls ?
  31. Jergo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Age
    33
    Posts
    1,436
    Answers
    0

    Quote Originally Posted by Par Deus
    Actually, I have a bachelor's in Health and Sports Sciences, and i was pre-med for 2 years, so I have also had 4 semesters of chemistry (in addition to all of the basics like human anatomy, human phys., exercise phys, kinesiology, etc.)

    But, of course, 99.9% of my knowledge is indeed self taught.

    Here is some good reading on just what a "scientist" Big Cat is, and why I no longer waste my time deal with him, except in summary form (and, why it took Spook all of 2 weeks to go from getting his ass kissed with tongue by Big Cat to thinking him just as much of a fraud as i think him):



    "Here is why we consider Big Cat a waste of time, for those who care:


    Here, he makes his appearance to attack Leptigen -- note the poster who mentioned not seeing him for a while (he had thrown a fit and exited bb.com's supp forums for about a year previous to fairly recently)

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...highlight=fraud

    Then, after I point out his shortcomings in knowledge, intelligence, and integrity, he comes back with an article in bodybuilding.com to attack Leptigen, which repeats most of the same nonsense.

    His article and my rebuttal can be found here -- and, toward the end, there is a copy of a second article he wrote for bb.com on the matter, and my follow-up.

    http://forum.avantlabs.com/?act=ST&f=1&t=7...=7935&hl=fraud&


    He sticks with hiding behind articles for awhile, until I was safely away at the Arnold (he also wrote an article attacking LipoDerm or Ab-Solved -- can't recall which), then when I am safely away at the Arnold, he decides to attack Ab-Solved on the board, again in typical ignorant but not afraid to state things as fact Big Cat fashion. Again, I expose him.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...&highlight=fact

    Here is him "schooling" Lyle McDonald on leptin, as well.

    http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/sho...p?threadid=9329

    Here, Spook grows tired of his nonsense and calls him on it (it is particularly funny because Big Cat had previously kissed Spook's ass quite a bit):

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...threadid=263933

    Keep in mind that before myself, topical fat loss products were a joke, before Lyle, no one in bodybuilding had heard of leptin (and, I have written as much as anyone and helped popularize it on the boards more than anyone), and no one talked about VAT and cortisol and Metabolic Syndrome and 7-keto in the same sentence before us.

    We have written successful books, articles, designed supplements people rave about, etc., on these matters, for YEARS, while Big Cat is published in bb.com, which publishes everything that is sent to them, and has done little more than read our own articles and a a few article over a weekend, for his knowledge on the matters he is now suddenly an expert on and "schooling" us in."


    And Spook:

    Ok here it is.
    A little background is in order. Big Cat and I had gotten in to it a couple of times before and whenever he started to lose an argument he started making things up and this had irritated me. Specifically he would reference a conversation from a different thread but twist it all around and lie about what was said to make me look foolish. I assume he did this in hopes that users were to lazy to go to the other thread and read what was actually said.

    Anyway in this instance he and Par had gotten in to it yet again about transdermal delivery mechanisms. It was getting fairly heated. This I could care less about but again he pulled the same stunt. In an effort to make par look foolish he misquoted me saying that in a previous discussion I had said ¡§SAT tissue behaves just like VAT tissue¡¨ and how he corrected me about this. When in truth I had said no such thing. I called him on it quite politely BTW. I said stop doing that and I posted a link to the thread he was referring to so users could see what I had actually said. It consisted of two posts to this thread.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...ok&pagenumber=2

    See about half way down on page two. Clearly I said no such that that VAT behaves just like SAT tissue.

    He came back with what is below which basically says he dose not care that he misquoted me because that was not the point he was trying to make. I was angry because when he misquotes me it makes me look bad. So I responded with this. Please note that this is hardly the first time he has done this. You probably want to read these threads to get an understanding of what I am talking about. Look towards the end of each one. As he loses ground in each argument he starts making things up. This is what I was angry about and when he accused me of being a huckster and supplement pimp I was outraged.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...highlight=spook
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...highlight=spook
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...highlight=spook

    Specifically he accused me of pimping Absolved in that thread I just linked up above. Clearly there was no mention of absolved and I even complemented him on his thread.

    So what I decided to do was gather several instances of him fabricating things and post them all in one place so people could see what kind of person they were dealing with. What follows is my response.

    To make it easier to read his words are in red.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    So its ok for you to misquote me and disparage my reputation because you were trying to prove a point? I dont care how much you know about fat cells or when you knew it. My beef with you is because you directly misquoted me which makes me look bad. If you would just say ¡§gee I am sorry I did not really remember the specifics of our conversation. I did not mean to misrepresent what you said¡¨. Then it would be no big deal.



    You little SOB. How dare you call in to question my integrity. I linked up the thread. Reread it again you jackass. Sorry mods for my language but am I supposed to stay civil when someone flat out says that I am a liar. That the information I presented what inaccurate in an attempt to sell product. Big Cat has essentially said I am a huckster and a pimp, and those are fighting words. I am professional but I am not Jesus and my patience is finite.

    If you reread that thread I was merely pointing out a flaw in your reasoning. I did this as a favor. I enjoy it when someone points out a flaw in my reasoning so that I do not make the same mistake later. I even complemented you on thread in question because I think its great when anyone tries to further the availability of knowledge in these areas. But, nowhere did I ever even once mention Absolved. If you actually would read what I wrote I said that indeed your ultimate conclusion was correct. That being that DHEA would be superior for localized SAT loss. Its just that one of your statements on the way to that conclusion was incorrect or at least incomplete.



    Fine I will get in on the discussion. Primairly because I am sick of your lies. That is right I am flat out calling you a liar. You have attacked my reputation and for that I will not sit still.

    But instead of just saying you¡¦re a liar and an ass I will provide definitive evidence.

    P.S. Par I know you have been waiting for this, so enjoy ļ


    I think the major problem here is that you feel free to speak authoritatively on subjects which you no nothing about.

    I imagine I am in the same boat that many people reading this thread are. I do not consider myself to be an expert on transdermal delivery. So I can not in good conscience judge the merits of the arguments presented. So I have to base my assessment on the integrity of the individuals in question. In my mind your credibility is completely gone. Because in past instances where we have discussed issue in which I do have a modicum of expertise, I have found you to speak authoritatively on subjects where you are woefully ignorant.

    For some unknown reason you feel its ok to speak as if you are an expert even when you have no idea what you are talking about. So to me its like the boy who cried wolf. If you make unqualified claims continuously why should I believe what you are saying now.

    Case in point. I said:



    then Big Cat says this in an attempt to make me look foolish.



    Boasting what I read about transdermal delivery? I think its painfully clear that I was saying how little I know about transdermal delivery. I think this is the difference between you and I. I do not think because I have read a couple of books and a handful of paper that I am an expert. You on the other hand feel the need to continuously spout nonsense and declare you expertise on matters which you know little about.

    That was not boasting you jackass that was me informing you and everyone else how ignorant I am on the subject.

    So that is lie number one. You say I boasted about my knowledge in a specific subject matter when the point was the exact opposite.


    Next, in relation to the idea of using DHEA in a localized carrier Big Cat said:



    The date of this post was 5-29-2004

    But the thing is he knew damn well I suggested this over a year ago on Avant Labs site. I linked up a thread that I started on the subject in our debate about DHEA and 7-0x0-DHEA.

    Here is my post from that thread:


    Again a second lie to attempt to disparage Avant Labs.

    Now not only does he lie but this is a blatant example of spouting his mouth off when he knows little about the subject.
    From our discussion of DHEA and 7-OXO-DHEA:
    I said:


    then he said



    then I said:



    Ok so now at this point you should be concerned. I mean he speaks as if he knows what hes talking about but he did not even know that evoda or cap blocked aldosterone release. And you think he would no such a thing since he said he as actively researching it and because he said he had thoroughly researched HEAT which contains Evoda.
    More alarming is the fact that he makes RAS activity sound good. For the record RAS is extremely complicated and I will leave my opinion for the paper I am going to publish on the subject. If I could sum it up for a forum post I would do so but its to long.
    Anyway take a gander at these studies and tell me if you think this is wise:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...0&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...8&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlere...bmedid=12840062
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...8&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...8&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...7&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...5&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...6&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...0&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...3&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...5&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...7&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...0&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...0&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...2&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...8&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...0&dopt=Abstract

    Anyway so points out just how little he understands.

    But then he had to go on and lie again.

    He then said.



    Then I said:



    Again so that is lie number three. You mischaracterized what I said. At the very beginning of all of that all I said was that RAS modulates VAT growth. Not that it was a dominant negative regulator of body composition. I know I would never say this because I do not hold that opinion at all. My opinion will be presented in my article when its published.

    Still not satisfied he goes on to say:



    Again where if ever have I said that RAS inhibition is a ¡§uniform must-have approach to losing fat¡¨. All I ever said was that in certain individuals VAT is hard to lose because of RAS.

    Finaly even more evidence that he has no idea what he is talking about. He says in relation to BCAA causeing fat gain (a criticism of his of leptigen):



    Yet if he had done is research he would know that milk contains no less that 5 different mildly to moderately potent ACE inhibitors that reduce the RAS activity he loves so much.

    See the following studies:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=15051858

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=14692507

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=12755477

    I agree with him milk is great stuff. But the fact that he did not know this just goes to show how little real investigation he does. Just like the Evoda and cap thing. He speaks authoritatively yet has not done the research.

    Another example of this is in our discussion of Leptin he did not know that the JAK/STAT pathway was the dominant pathway in neurological tissue. Considering he speaks authoritatively on the subject you would think he should no this considering it is of the utmost important as leptin exerts almost all of its effects centrally in the brain.


    Finally I summed it up before better than I possibly could elsewhere.



    Your behavior is ridiculous. Stop trying to win arguments with people by making up lies and misquoting me. Learn some humility. When you don¡¦t know what your talking about say so. I do it all the time. There are so many posts over at avant where I say I was wrong about something or that I don¡¦t know the answer to something. You need to learn to do the same.

    For the readers all quotes were taken from the following threads (besides those already linked up.)

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...highlight=spook
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...highlight=spook
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...highlight=spook
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...highlight=spook

    Holy ****....how long did that take you??

    This thread's taught me more than anything I learned in my first 3 semesters in college...
  32. Board Sponsor
    Board Sponsor
    Par Deus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    179
    Answers
    0

    You seem to miss the point, as you so often do.

    You have already been THOROUGHLY discredited on multiple occassions by multiple people who are recognizecd as real experts in our little world.

    I just cut and pasted the carnage.

    And, don't you just love it that know matter how much time you take and how much you write, all I have to do is spend 2 minutes cutting and pasting, to show every single person who is interested what a fraud you are...?

    Every single post you make that I encounter that is even remotely related to my company or my products, will get this.

    It is time to come up with a new screen name and start over.
  33. Board Supporter
    Big Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    111
    Answers
    0

    Quote Originally Posted by Par Deus
    You seem to miss the point, as you so often do.

    You have already been THOROUGHLY discredited on multiple occassions by multiple people who are recognizecd as real experts in our little world.
    [/b]

    Perhaps that's the problem, whom our little world recognizes as experts. Have you read much of the stuff that comes out of our little world lately ? Perhaps that's another problem, the fact that you view yourself as an expert.

    And, don't you just love it that know matter how much time you take and how much you write, all I have to do is spend 2 minutes cutting and pasting, to show every single person who is interested what a fraud you are...?


    Actually I think you did a poor job. I can refute most of these facts, and point a few where you totally ripped them out of context. I could have personally dug deeper and found a lot worse stuff to post on myself. Lord knows I really did make some dumb mistakes in the past, these are hardly any of them. As I also stated before in this thread and others, unlike you I don't consider knowledge a static thing. Perhaps that's the reason why I was able to make those mistakes then, and become what I am today : the menace that you need to discredit before anybody realizes he really has a point

    Every single post you make that I encounter that is even remotely related to my company or my products, will get this.


    Poor baby, I didn't really knew you cared so much. I most certainly don't. But it makes me feel good, really makes me feel you love me, to take this time out to discredit me.

    And perhaps you really feel it will do you some good. But seriously, come on, post that stuff wherever you can, and I'll keep pointing out how you never adress the issues and can only attack me. How long do you think it will be ? Realistically that is ?

    It is time to come up with a new screen name and start over.
    I could do that, and then I could erase all my mistakes and take you down with a clean slate. But then what good does that do me ? You act as though I should be ashamed that I made mistakes in the past.

    In the past, I only had your education level. Its only normal that I made mistakes.
  34. Board Supporter
    Big Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    111
    Answers
    0

    Quote Originally Posted by Jergo
    Holy ****....how long did that take you??
    Longer than it would have taken to adress the critiscism, if that tells you anything

    But that's ok, makes me feel like a big man to know Par care's enough to write that and threaten me
  35. Board Supporter
    Big Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    111
    Answers
    0

    Oh Par, why don't you tell people again why you shouldn't add 7-oxo to lipoderm ?
  36. Board Sponsor
    Board Sponsor
    Par Deus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    179
    Answers
    0

    Yeah, you don't care, that is why you sent me a PM telling me you were "gonna get me", and that is why you told Dio the same thing, and that is why you keep making an ass out of yourself.

    Bottom line is you are a ****ing nutcase, who has done nothing whatsoever in this industry except make an ass of yourself at every turn, but you want to be respected (by people other than newbie dip****s) SOOOOOO badly, and it eats you up inside that it has been made abundantly clear, thanks in no small part to myself and Spook, that it will NEVER happen. You have been embarrassed publically, over and over and over again.

    Also, I have no desire to point out all the stupid **** you said three years ago -- it is much more relevant to point out all of the stupid **** you have said in the last 3 months.

    Ta-Ta, for now, bitch.
  37. Board Supporter
    Big Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    111
    Answers
    0

    Quote Originally Posted by Par Deus
    Yeah, you don't care, that is why you sent me a PM telling me you were "gonna get me", and that is why you told Dio the same thing, and that is why you keep making an ass out of yourself.

    Bottom line is you are a ****ing nutcase, who has done nothing whatsoever in this industry except make an ass of yourself at every turn, but you want to be respected (by people other than newbie dip****s) SOOOOOO badly, and it eats you up inside that it has been made abundantly clear, thanks in no small part to myself and Spook, that it will NEVER happen. You have been embarrassed publically, over and over and over again.

    Also, I have no desire to point out all the stupid **** you said three years ago -- it is much more relevant to point out all of the stupid **** you have said in the last 3 months.

    Ta-Ta, for now, bitch.
    I must have missed it in all your long-winded babbling there, what was the reason you can't add 7-oxo to Lipoderm again ?
  38. Registered User
    enzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    67
    Answers
    0

    Big Cat,

    I don't know you, but from reading your posts it appears you enjoy getting under peoples skin, but in a good sort of way lol. If I remeber correctly Dan Duchaine had a similar way of doing things and initially, many people thought he was off his rocker. Dan Duchaine made many mistakes in his career as well. However; many would agree(some would not) Dan turned out to be an icon with respect to the bodybuilding community. In a sense, you remind me of the letter Will Brink wrote about Dan Duchaine after he died and in that I remeber a quote stating "He was not always correct in his theories, but his ability to open up new avenues of thought on a topic was un*****ed and unequaled."

    I am in no way stating you are the new Dan Duchaine but it appears you have some of his personality attributes.

    The criticism that Par Dues manifests seems out of rage stemming from questioning his products. I think questioning anyones products is a good choice from a scientific standpoint b/c how do we get to the truth if everyone believes one person. I can also tell you most people in Biochemistry Academia do not have the mouth of a 15 year old, let alone the president of a company. What type of person attacks someone for questioning his products. I believe if your products have merit let them be tested and stand on thier own two feet. And most of his products are effective. But maybe, just maybe, his products could be more effective by recieving other colleagues input.

    I respect Par Dues for his business accomplishments starting a business from the ground up but thank God he does not represent the mindset of the scientific community in general. Par Dues has a vested interest in his products so he is going to defend them through hell and high water.

    I think its immature to discount your questions b/c from a business standpoint these are questions that need to be discussed. Sales 101 learn from the competition. In these days you have to be open minded and be ready for change fast.
  39. Board Supporter
    Big Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    111
    Answers
    0

    Quote Originally Posted by enzo
    Big Cat,

    I don't know you, but from reading your posts it appears you enjoy getting under peoples skin, but in a good sort of way lol. If I remeber correctly Dan Duchaine had a similar way of doing things and initially, many people thought he was off his rocker. Dan Duchaine made many mistakes in his career as well. However; many would agree(some would not) Dan turned out to be an icon with respect to the bodybuilding community. In a sense, you remind me of the letter Will Brink wrote about Dan Duchaine after he died and in that I remeber a quote stating "He was not always correct in his theories, but his ability to open up new avenues of thought on a topic was un*****ed and unequaled."

    I am in no way stating you are the new Dan Duchaine but it appears you have some of his personality attributes.

    The criticism that Par Dues manifests seems out of rage stemming from questioning his products. I think questioning anyones products is a good choice from a scientific standpoint b/c how do we get to the truth if everyone believes one person. I can also tell you most people in Biochemistry Academia do not have the mouth of a 15 year old, let alone the president of a company. What type of person attacks someone for questioning his products. I believe if your products have merit let them be tested and stand on thier own two feet. And most of his products are effective. But maybe, just maybe, his products could be more effective by recieving other colleagues input.

    I respect Par Dues for his business accomplishments starting a business from the ground up but thank God he does not represent the mindset of the scientific community in general. Par Dues has a vested interest in his products so he is going to defend them through hell and high water.

    I think its immature to discount your questions b/c from a business standpoint these are questions that need to be discussed. Sales 101 learn from the competition. In these days you have to be open minded and be ready for change fast.
    I think you give me too much credit But thanx anyway. On the one hand I know myself to be more informed than Dan, but on the other hand I don't feel I am anywhere near as creative as Dan yet. He really did bring a lot of things to the fore in our community.

    If Par Deus wanted to defend his products, he could have easily done so. I imagine it would have taken less time than what he wrote so far. Except he has no reply, nor the mental capacity to research it and come up with one. His feeble attempts at discrediting me show his lack of control of the situation and just how concerned he is with what I am saying. The mere fact that these posts come almost a months after the last posts made in this discussion shows that obviously the concerns have made an impact on his sales, big enough for him to respond to know.

    I make no attempts at grandeur or immortality, for that I like helping people too much. I simply like pointing out obvious flaws and helping people realize they can achieve much better on their own, keeping the money in their wallet. Anabolicminds is a great forum for this too. I guess in essence that's why Par Deus still believes that by attacking me his problems will go away.

    But thank you for the kind words.
  40. NutraPlanet Fanatic
    Board Sponsor
    dsade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Age
    43
    Posts
    21,303
    Answers
    0

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Cat
    The mere fact that these posts come almost a months after the last posts made in this discussion shows that obviously the concerns have made an impact on his sales, big enough for him to respond to know.
    Quite the opposite.
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    BPS - Where Body meets Performance
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless
  •   

      
     

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Homebrew Yohimbine HCL Oral?
    By houseman in forum Supplements
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 06-29-2004, 05:47 AM
  2. curt2go's homebrew...here's the results
    By gadzid in forum Pics
    Replies: 64
    Last Post: 01-24-2003, 06:47 AM
  3. Absorbtion rate of homebrews?
    By Jorta in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 11-21-2002, 02:51 PM
  4. Ephedra Homebrew
    By ChaseRoy in forum General Chat
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 11-02-2002, 09:00 PM
  5. homebrew dosage
    By Stez in forum Supplements
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-31-2002, 12:01 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Log in