Training after sleepless nights

Page 1 of 2 12 Last
  1. Training after sleepless nights


    So Iíve had insomnia for a few years now. Most nights, stacking my prescription sleep meds with some OL amnesia will let me get to sleep but from time to time thereíll be a night when I just canít sleep at all.

    After a night when you get zero sleep, would training the following day be beneficial or detrimental to your progress?


  2. Try CBD before bed if you have not already. Get adequate vitamin D3 from the sun, or cod liver oil. If you got no sleep at all, I wouldn't train, it would be detrimental.
    •   
       


  3. Quote Originally Posted by u_e_s_i View Post
    So Iíve had insomnia for a few years now. Most nights, stacking my prescription sleep meds with some OL amnesia will let me get to sleep but from time to time thereíll be a night when I just canít sleep at all.

    After a night when you get zero sleep, would training the following day be beneficial or detrimental to your progress?
    I have slept like crap for years, I only sleep good like 1-2x a week. The rest of the days I sleep for a hour or 2 and wake up. Then it's up and down every hour. Nothing over the counter works and I'm not interested in anything prescription. That being said I have no issue squeezing in a mid day nap for 30-45min after work or on a day off. As long is I'm not feeling like I'm gonna fall asleep I will go to the gym.

    I know plenty of very successful ppl who get very little sleep on average like 4-5 hours due to running buisness and kids. They still hit the gym to start there day and some of them have very good physiques. Now if you are literally up 24hours straight I would say get sleep over the gym

  4. @Smont when my sleep patterns first became irregular I used to wake up every hour or so too. I’m sorry to hear you have to put up with that.
    For me, after a year or so it just developed into insomnia and I’d often go three days at a time without being able to sleep.

    Two things you could try are herbal teas for sleep and OL’s amnesia. They definitely augment my sleeping meds for the better.
    For the sleep teas, just take a look on amazon. For amnesia, try their site and other online supplement stores. For some people who have trouble sleeping those are all they need.
    Also, if you’re eating low carb and aren’t on any SSRIs and the like then supplementing with some tryptophan before bed can really help

  5. I've tried all the sleep teas, and just like most otc sleeping aids and stuff like Nyquil, they all are relaxing and can help me fall asleep but not stay asleep. I havnt tried any sport supplement companies sleep aids, just the drug store ones
    •   
       


  6. @u_e_s_i - What do you take for prescriptions.

    I honestly think a lot of times people focus on the wrong side of the coin with issues. Not saying this is you; but as an example, people come on here all the time and they want a good stimulant because they are tired all day but they should really be looking for a way to get better sleep and cut down on their stims. On the other hand, people come on here looking for solutions to their sleep issues but miss something about their "awake" time that is actually the root of the issue.

    What time do you eat your last meal? What other medications do you use? What do you take for sleep medications? What do you take for supplements?

    Not saying I recommend this, but this is the mix I use for myself each night. I don't have major sleep issues....but...this helps.

    1 gram GABA
    3.2 grams Magnesium Glycinate (450 mg magnesium)
    30 mg zinc
    15 mg melatonin
    50 mg P5P

    When I take this, I tend to fall asleep and stay asleep better. The biggest improvement is on the "staying asleep" side of that.

    15 mg of melatonin is a huge dose and you may feel groggy for the first week on it. Keep it up though and you will adjust. Take it around 9 at night. It is my belief that it does not necessarily have as much of a direct impact on sleep as people initially think - but it helps regulate your circadian rhythm and it has a bunch of health-related properties that are good for you. I think you may actually have a better effect on acute sleep with less than 1 mg of melatonin - but I'm looking more big picture here.

    GABA also has a number of positive health effects that are often overlooked.

    Most people are deficient in Magnesium. Magnesium Glycinate is Mag bound to Glycine (obviously). The downside is that the combo yields a lot of powder for a dose of magnesium - 3+ grams total for 450 mg of mag. But the magnesium is better absorbed than some other forms. While other forms of magnesium have better absorption than mag glycinate, I like this because it has reasonable absorption and the glycine itself has benefits - it also activates GABA receptors and is relaxing.

    I've had a few people say the Mag Glycinate gives them some gastrointestinal issues (minor) in the beginning but they tend to adjust to this and that goes away with a week or so of use.
    "I've never seen anyone change his mind because of the power of a superior argument or the acquisition of new facts. But I've seen plenty of people change behavior to avoid being mocked." -Scott Adams

  7. Interestingly, I have some of my best workouts when I have a crappy night of sleep (crappier than normal as I am not a good sleeper) and always wondered why I actually feel motivated. Now it seems I may have my answer.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0819213033.htm

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Smont View Post

    I know plenty of very successful ppl who get very little sleep on average like 4-5 hours due to running buisness and kids. They still hit the gym to start there day and some of them have very good physiques. Now if you are literally up 24hours straight I would say get sleep over the gym
    This is me spot on. Our crazy schedules get us in bed around 11 and I wake up around 4am and start thinking about my day ahead. On the laptop working by 5 so I can get some work in before the kids are up at 6 getting ready for school. Then life doesn't stop until 11pm again.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    This is me spot on. Our crazy schedules get us in bed around 11 and I wake up around 4am and start thinking about my day ahead. On the laptop working by 5 so I can get some work in before the kids are up at 6 getting ready for school. Then life doesn't stop until 11pm again.
    Yep you literally just described my buddies daily routine all the way down to the times he goes to bed and gets up. And to top it off I've never herd him complain about being tired or not sleeping.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    Interestingly, I have some of my best workouts when I have a crappy night of sleep (crappier than normal as I am not a good sleeper) and always wondered why I actually feel motivated. Now it seems I may have my answer.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0819213033.htm
    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    This is me spot on. Our crazy schedules get us in bed around 11 and I wake up around 4am and start thinking about my day ahead. On the laptop working by 5 so I can get some work in before the kids are up at 6 getting ready for school. Then life doesn't stop until 11pm again.
    I actually think sometimes we become accustomed to too much sleep. Like when you sleep 10 hours and wake up all groggy.

    Interesting study on the dopamine, that actually may explain a lot of issues...There some evidence that sleep deprivation is a "cure" for depression as well.

    I also wonder if people who get too much TIME for sleep adjust to it. I watch my fitbit and I often get a solid 7-8 hours. What I've noticed is that I don't get much deep sleep though. I feel great on anything more than 1 hour of deep sleep. But what little I know about it is that we often get our deep sleep early in the night, and then later on it's all light/REM. I wonder how our body knows what early is. For instance, maybe the pattern of sleeping for the week before effects how we handle sleep tonight; if we have been getting 8 hours consistently we expect it tonight - but if we get 4 hours, we ramp things up a little in the nights that follow.
    "I've never seen anyone change his mind because of the power of a superior argument or the acquisition of new facts. But I've seen plenty of people change behavior to avoid being mocked." -Scott Adams

  11. I train all the time after a bad night of sleep, but I would skip the day if I didn't sleep at all or got less than 1 or 2 hours.
    ***PES Representative***
    http://pescience.com/insider
    http://selectprotein.com

  12. u_e_s_i, have you ever gone in for a sleep study to try and figure out what is going on?
    ***PES Representative***
    http://pescience.com/insider
    http://selectprotein.com

  13. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    @u_e_s_i - What do you take for prescriptions.

    I honestly think a lot of times people focus on the wrong side of the coin with issues. Not saying this is you; but as an example, people come on here all the time and they want a good stimulant because they are tired all day but they should really be looking for a way to get better sleep and cut down on their stims. On the other hand, people come on here looking for solutions to their sleep issues but miss something about their "awake" time that is actually the root of the issue.

    What time do you eat your last meal? What other medications do you use? What do you take for sleep medications? What do you take for supplements?

    Not saying I recommend this, but this is the mix I use for myself each night. I don't have major sleep issues....but...this helps.

    1 gram GABA
    3.2 grams Magnesium Glycinate (450 mg magnesium)
    30 mg zinc
    15 mg melatonin
    50 mg P5P

    When I take this, I tend to fall asleep and stay asleep better. The biggest improvement is on the "staying asleep" side of that.

    15 mg of melatonin is a huge dose and you may feel groggy for the first week on it. Keep it up though and you will adjust. Take it around 9 at night. It is my belief that it does not necessarily have as much of a direct impact on sleep as people initially think - but it helps regulate your circadian rhythm and it has a bunch of health-related properties that are good for you. I think you may actually have a better effect on acute sleep with less than 1 mg of melatonin - but I'm looking more big picture here.

    GABA also has a number of positive health effects that are often overlooked.

    Most people are deficient in Magnesium. Magnesium Glycinate is Mag bound to Glycine (obviously). The downside is that the combo yields a lot of powder for a dose of magnesium - 3+ grams total for 450 mg of mag. But the magnesium is better absorbed than some other forms. While other forms of magnesium have better absorption than mag glycinate, I like this because it has reasonable absorption and the glycine itself has benefits - it also activates GABA receptors and is relaxing.

    I've had a few people say the Mag Glycinate gives them some gastrointestinal issues (minor) in the beginning but they tend to adjust to this and that goes away with a week or so of use.
    My prescriptions for sleep are
    500-800mg Quetiapine
    25-50mg Promethazine

    My prescription for ADD is
    200mg Modafinil

    I usually eat my last meal 30-90 minutes before I go to bed. It pretty much always consists of some lean protein or vegan protein powder, + veggies. I don’t have any carbs within three hours of bedtime.

    For sleep, I take a compound supp with the label below and OL amnesia.
    400iu Vit D3
    800mg Calcium (calcium carbonate)
    400mg Magnesium (magnesium hydroxide)
    10mg Zinc (zinc sulphate)
    1mg Copper (copper sulphate)
    0.5mg Manganese (manganese sulphate)
    50ug Selenium (sodium selenite)
    0.6mg Boron (disodium tetraborate)
    These stacked with my prescriptions have been helping me get to sleep pretty reliably for the last six months (since I added amnesia) and this might be the first or second fully sleepless night I’ve had in like a year.
    Two days ago tho I ran out of amnesia and that’s when the trouble started. I’m not sure what the difference was between the first night and the second, on both nights I just did my routine. Only, yesterday I took 10g of D-ribose peri-workout as opposed to the usual 7.5g, and last night I remembered to take some theanine before bed.
    The bottles of amnesia I have on the way won’t get here before Friday unfortunately.

    For supps…
    I usually take all stimulants and the modafinil about 10-14 hours before I go to bed. Yesterday wasn’t any different.
    In the category of stims I’m taking
    OL r3ign
    PES shift
    Ginseng
    Maca

    Something I added to my stack a week or so ago that’d increase my metabolic rate is TTA. But before I ran out of amnesia I didn’t have any issues getting to sleep.

    Thanks for the info.
    Melatonin is something I’ve considered getting as it resensitises leidig cells and my schedule means I could probably do with some supplementation. I’ll give 15g a night a try and see what happens. The one issue is that melatonin’s not available OTC in the U.K. so I’ll need to get some shipped over which may take at least a week.
    GABA sounds interesting but I’d need to get that shipped over too. I’ll look into it.
    I’ll run these by my doctor

    Given the ZMA&more supp I’m taking so you think I should look into the other three things on your list?
    I’m currently getting some additional glycine pre and post workout each day from TMG

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Smont View Post
    I've tried all the sleep teas, and just like most otc sleeping aids and stuff like Nyquil, they all are relaxing and can help me fall asleep but not stay asleep. I havnt tried any sport supplement companies sleep aids, just the drug store ones
    I think amnesia’s worth a try. I’ve heard other people say that it does a good job of helping them sleep and it definitely improves your quality of sleep

  15. Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    This is me spot on. Our crazy schedules get us in bed around 11 and I wake up around 4am and start thinking about my day ahead. On the laptop working by 5 so I can get some work in before the kids are up at 6 getting ready for school. Then life doesn't stop until 11pm again.
    It’s interesting that you feel alright given that schedule. Do you nap during the day regularly?

    There’s a thing called polyphasic sleeping. In short, you get 4 hours of sleep a night and then take three naps during the day. It may be worth your while looking it up for more details

    I’ve considered switching to polyphasic sleeping but he fact that I’m an insomniac who needs to take heavy sleeping drugs to sleep makes the napping part unfeasable.
    Additionally, seeing as your body produces the bulk of your day’s testosterone in the last hour and a half of an eight hour sleep, polyphasic sleeping may leave you with much lower testosterone levels. I haven’t come across any studies investigating the testosterone levels of polyphasic sleepers sadly.
    I wonder if you’d adapt.
    If any of you guys try it, please let me know how things go

  16. I remember reading a artical about the most successful ppl only sleep 5-6 hours a night. That includes athletes and I can remember many athletes saying they don't sleep a lot. In recent years arnold said he only slept 6 hours a day even tho he preached more

  17. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    I actually think sometimes we become accustomed to too much sleep. Like when you sleep 10 hours and wake up all groggy.

    Interesting study on the dopamine, that actually may explain a lot of issues...There some evidence that sleep deprivation is a "cure" for depression as well.

    I also wonder if people who get too much TIME for sleep adjust to it. I watch my fitbit and I often get a solid 7-8 hours. What I've noticed is that I don't get much deep sleep though. I feel great on anything more than 1 hour of deep sleep. But what little I know about it is that we often get our deep sleep early in the night, and then later on it's all light/REM. I wonder how our body knows what early is. For instance, maybe the pattern of sleeping for the week before effects how we handle sleep tonight; if we have been getting 8 hours consistently we expect it tonight - but if we get 4 hours, we ramp things up a little in the nights that follow.
    Humans sleep in ~four hour sleep cycles and so waking up after 10 hours means you’re waking up mid-cycle which leaves you feeling groggy. The same is meant to apply for waking after 6 hours of sleep. To wake up feeling at least fresh-ish you should aim for multiples of four hours

    One difference between deep sleep and light sleep is that during one (I think it’s deep sleep), your body primarily conducts maintenance on your brain and form long-term memories. During the other, your body primarily conducts maintenance on your body.

    Your theory’s interesting and I’d like to see some research on it.
    As it happens this afternoon when I went to run some errands I thought to myself 'im feeling surprisingly good' and seeing as I used to spend days on end unable to sleep I also wondered 'I wonder if my body's adapted and gotten kinda used to going without sleep'. I've had those thoughts before after going a night without sleep.
    That said, the elevated dopamine needs to be accounted for.
    Whats the stereotypical mentality of people who've been fiending coke for more than a day without sleeping? "GODDAMN I FEEL GOOD."
    Cocaine spikes dopamine and so I suppose that that can be seen as an extreme example of having elevated dopamine.
    I wouldn't be surprised tho if people do adapt to an extent.

    Its worth remembering that in spite of individual testimonies about how people feel, the data still shows a correlation between sleep deprivation and all sorts of ailments, in addition to shorter lifespans.
    That's one of the main reasons why I still try to get 8 hours a night when I could otherwise free up 8 hours everyday (well, on 3 out of every 4 days)

    As for what the study says about the extra dopamine not mitigating the neuro-impediments of going without sleep.
    If today I feel a lot like I did yesterday, and yesterday I felt a lot like the day before, and that day I felt a lot like the day before, and so forth… Sometimes you wouldn't be aware that something's off because you've gotten used to your new 'normal'.
    I say that from personal experience

    Perhaps your body judges things against your circadian rhythm, or 'body clock's. The measurements wouldn't be precise but they'd serve the purpose of providing a sense of what 'early' is

  18. Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    Interestingly, I have some of my best workouts when I have a crappy night of sleep (crappier than normal as I am not a good sleeper) and always wondered why I actually feel motivated. Now it seems I may have my answer.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0819213033.htm
    Haha I've had some really good workouts after nights when I hadn't slept and would sit there between sets thinking 'omd that's a new PR. Whats going on?' with a big grin on my face

    Good find

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    u_e_s_i, have you ever gone in for a sleep study to try and figure out what is going on?
    I haven't. I think I just might go get one done tho

  20. Quote Originally Posted by u_e_s_i View Post
    Haha I've had some really good workouts after nights when I hadn't slept and would sit there between sets thinking 'omd that's a new PR. Whats going on?' with a big grin on my face

    Good find
    I get my best pumps after a night of drinking beer, I know that means nothing but I thought I'd toss it out there. Maybe thinner blood so increased blood flow?

  21. Quote Originally Posted by u_e_s_i View Post
    I haven't. I think I just might go get one done tho
    I'd highly recommend it to help pinpoint what is going on with you. It might be a fairly simple fix once you know where the issue is and if there is a pattern to your sleep levels right before you're waking up. If it's too expensive or if you can't get insurance to pay for it, I would look into nearby universities or hospitals that might be looking for volunteers in trials.
    ***PES Representative***
    http://pescience.com/insider
    http://selectprotein.com

  22. I have not slept well in 10+yrs, but I do train the day after on none sleep days. I will just go down stairs and do mostly body weight stuff or just use the bar and rep it out....it keeps me moving but I'm not having to worry about heavy weights on my back or in my hands.

    For the sleep issue I was taking Ambien and I hated so I stopped, melitonan (sp?) has been good to me but I had to take 10mg along with 100mg of benydril (sp?). Now I'm trying CBD oil and it seems to do a good job, it seems like when my body gets used to the meds i have to switch up and things get better...

  23. Quote Originally Posted by dds View Post
    I have not slept well in 10+yrs, but I do train the day after on none sleep days. I will just go down stairs and do mostly body weight stuff or just use the bar and rep it out....it keeps me moving but I'm not having to worry about heavy weights on my back or in my hands.

    For the sleep issue I was taking Ambien and I hated so I stopped, melitonan (sp?) has been good to me but I had to take 10mg along with 100mg of benydril (sp?). Now I'm trying CBD oil and it seems to do a good job, it seems like when my body gets used to the meds i have to switch up and things get better...
    I used to be on Ambien too. It’s known that Ambien stops working after a while and some people become dependent on it. Tbh I’m surprised that doctors still prescribe it to people with long-term sleeping issues.
    I wouldn’t be surprised if Ambien’s manufacturor’s had a hand in that

  24. I have insomnia on occasion. In the past I would train after a sleepless night but I've found it much more beneficial to simply take a day off. Occasionally I'll accumulate several sleepless nights which is pretty draining. I just make it my deload week until my sleep quality improves and often I benefit anyway as I have a habit of not deloading frequently enough.

  25. I think training when you feel you have not got adequate sleep needs to be modified. In other words have a maintenance day...otherwise its determental...and leads to issues like insomnia.
  •   

      
     

Similar Forum Threads

  1. training after surgery
    By kkr in forum Training Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 06-30-2008, 08:07 AM
  2. Training after pumped?
    By Reverin in forum Training Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-14-2008, 04:48 PM
  3. Training after taking cissus
    By cdc1917 in forum Supplements
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-22-2006, 01:54 PM
  4. Why Sleepless Nights Can Mean Piling on the Pounds
    By yeahright in forum Weight Loss
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-28-2006, 12:59 PM
  5. Training after injury.
    By Flavor in forum Training Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04-22-2003, 02:26 PM
Log in
Log in