Are bro splits really that bad

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by APC80 View Post
    Show me proof. People aren't reliable when it comes to self reporting, plus most I speak to in the gym can't seem to tell the difference between muscle gain and fat gain. There's scientific evidence that a larger muscle can take 5-7 days to fully recover after a hard workout. Why I'm your mind would you think higher frequency is better? More training doesn't always equal more growth.
    Well quite simply some of the most reknown bodybuilding programs are low volume and high frequency. DC training, which hits every muscle group three times in a 12 day period. Or more recently fortitude Training which hits each muscle group 3-4 times a week. I'm not sure what kind of gym you work out in, but the guys I see that train effectively do not gain fat and mistake it for muscle. Now you didn't mention volume, because that is most definitely a determining factor in how often you can train again.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by EMPIREMIND View Post
    Well quite simply some of the most reknown bodybuilding programs are low volume and high frequency. DC training, which hits every muscle group three times in a 12 day period. Or more recently fortitude Training which hits each muscle group 3-4 times a week. I'm not sure what kind of gym you work out in, but the guys I see that train effectively do not gain fat and mistake it for muscle. Now you didn't mention volume, because that is most definitely a determining factor in how often you can train again.
    That's the thing if you train with more volume you're gonna take longer to recover. Atm I'm doing four days a week Monday chest/biceps/abs, Tuesday legs, thurs shoulders/traps/abs and fri back/triceps. I'm doing bookends where you go back to hit the heavy the compound movements with the same weight after your accessory exercises followed by 2 sets of 12-15 and trust me ya don't wanna be doing that **** twice a week. Strength gains so far have been great so far.
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  3. Guys like Mike Matthews and Jim Stoppani only train each muscle group once a week and both have impressive physiques for natural lifters. Don't quote me but I think Jason Ferruggia does as well.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by APC80 View Post
    That's the thing if you train with more volume you're gonna take longer to recover. Atm I'm doing four days a week Monday chest/biceps/abs, Tuesday legs, thurs shoulders/traps/abs and fri back/triceps. I'm doing bookends where you go back to hit the heavy the compound movements with the same weight after your accessory exercises followed by 2 sets of 12-15 and trust me ya don't wanna be doing that **** twice a week. Strength gains so far have been great so far.
    This whole statement depends on intensity. What if your training at a higher volume but lower weight/intensity? This would allow you to train multiple times a week.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by THOR 70 View Post
    This whole statement depends on intensity. What if your training at a higher volume but lower weight/intensity? This would allow you to train multiple times a week.
    I didn't say you couldn't train multiple times a week, of course ya can. I'm saying it's not the only way to train. I'm sure some get great results from high frequency I'm not arguing that.
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  6. I do a bro split, 4 days a week. If I'm on cycle and really trying to hit it I'll do 2 a days. Currently I do quad/ham, chest/tri, rest, back/bi, shoulders/calfs, rest, rest. Muscle keeps coming, just gotta keep the intensity right.

  7. Here is a good read for those interested.

    https://www.t-nation.com/training/th...atural-lifters
    Performax Labs Product Specialist
    Follow My Journey: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/269588-antms-lean-bulk.html

  8. Quote Originally Posted by AntM1564 View Post
    Here is a good read for those interested.

    https://www.t-nation.com/training/th...atural-lifters
    Thanks for sharing. This made me realize my volume is way too high and doesn't allow for frequency. Gonna give this a shot!

  9. Quote Originally Posted by AntM1564 View Post
    Here is a good read for those interested.

    https://www.t-nation.com/training/th...atural-lifters
    Usual bioscience from Christian Thibaudeau. Funny thing is he always talks about natty lifters vs enhanced as if he's natural himself lol

  10. Quote Originally Posted by APC80 View Post
    Usual bioscience from Christian Thibaudeau. Funny thing is he always talks about natty lifters vs enhanced as if he's natural himself lol
    Thib's use or non use of PED's doesn't affect whether or not his program is effective.
    By your logic, we should all be shopping for sick, out of shape doctors to help us get healthy.
    "What does a healthy doc know about being sick". . .

  11. Quote Originally Posted by scherbs View Post
    Thib's use or non use of PED's doesn't affect whether or not his program is effective.
    By your logic, we should all be shopping for sick, out of shape doctors to help us get healthy.
    "What does a healthy doc know about being sick". . .
    None of the stuff he ever says has any scientific merit, he's a first class bro scientist.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by THOR 70 View Post
    Thanks for sharing. This made me realize my volume is way too high and doesn't allow for frequency. Gonna give this a shot!
    I have been following a PPL routine for a few years now. Prior to that, I always used a bro split with a ton of volume. It is still difficult to tell myself I do not need to do 20+ sets for legs in a single day when I have two leg days.
    Performax Labs Product Specialist
    Follow My Journey: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/269588-antms-lean-bulk.html

  13. Quote Originally Posted by AntM1564 View Post
    I have been following a PPL routine for a few years now. Prior to that, I always used a bro split with a ton of volume. It is still difficult to tell myself I do not need to do 20+ sets for legs in a single day when I have two leg days.
    lol that's what got me when I changed to p/p/l then when I went back to once a week training I wasn't hitting the it hard enough in the gym. I find I pretty much have to stay away from training to complete failure on PPL 6 days a week whereas on a bro split the last set is always a ball buster, sometimes even the last 2 sets.

  14. I do Upper-Lower and one day full body bodyweight stuff. After years of experience, that is where I am getting most out of it. I do have more success than with bro splits especially as it allows me to increase my lifts more easily

  15. I actually think it really comes down to your personality, if you're a balls-to-the-wall leave everything in the gym sorta guy a bro split probably suits you better but if you're more laid back and don't push yourself as hard 2x or 3x a week would be better. Personally I struggle to recover with 2x week body part training.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by APC80 View Post
    I actually think it really comes down to your personality, if you're a balls-to-the-wall leave everything in the gym sorta guy a bro split probably suits you better but if you're more laid back and don't push yourself as hard 2x or 3x a week would be better. Personally I struggle to recover with 2x week body part training.
    This is really it. Some people like going all out, others would rather do more work. Most people, regardless, do more work than they should - like Ant1564 said, it's hard mentally to back off from the volume. It's worse because everyone thinks volume is a measure of effort. It's the exact opposite. If you are training hard, you will be EXHAUSTED after 1-3 sets. I mean, I've had really focused times where intensity was all out and you can wipe yourself out in 10 minutes. Most people don't know what it's like to train that hard. If you are training that hard, anything you lift after 10 minutes is going to be more of a waste of energy than any kind of stimulus. At that point, you're just wasting effort and torturing yourself for no return.

    The fact of the matter is, there are three factors - intensity, volume and frequency. If you are at 100% intensity then your volume and frequency have to be kept low. If you do a little more volume, you need to drop the intensity a little. It CAN be good to experiment with these levels - sometimes lower intensity with fairly low volume and relatively high frequency can be very good.

    The process though is "Stimulate, Recover, Adapt". Since the goal is to improve/progress with every workout, you need to allow for recovery AND adaptation to occur before you hit it again. People underestimate recovery time to begin with - it can take a LONG time to recover, much longer than you realize. You could not feel pain and still take 3-4 days more to recover. And if you hit the gym at that point, you'll just repeat the workout you did before because you haven't allowed for time to adapt and build new muscle yet...so you just start all over.

  17. p/p/l?

    Pizza, pasta, and lemon meringue pie? ...sign my fat ass up!!!

  18. Let's put it like this, Dorian Yates did 4 days a week and 1 working set to failure for exercise, 3-4 exercise a body part and was out in 40-60 mins. He had arguably the best physique ever. I agree with HIT, intensity and concentrating on muscle/mind and contraction, keep the movements slow and controlled while going to absolute failure (can't even do eccentric movements) you won't want to train that muscle again for a week haha high volume is good for deloadif from this type of training to reduce the risk of injury every 6 weeks or so. It's TUT and load that induces hypertrophy not how many reps and sets you can bust

  19. If heavy compound movements are the foundation of your training you only really need to hit a body part once a week, if you're ****in about with 3 sets of 12 and loads of curls, extensions etc you definitely need more frequency. I wanna be in and out of the gym in 45-60 minutes 3-4 exercises for a body part and I'm done.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Juicedeez utz View Post
    Let's put it like this, Dorian Yates did 4 days a week and 1 working set to failure for exercise, 3-4 exercise a body part and was out in 40-60 mins. He had arguably the best physique ever. I agree with HIT, intensity and concentrating on muscle/mind and contraction, keep the movements slow and controlled while going to absolute failure (can't even do eccentric movements) you won't want to train that muscle again for a week haha high volume is good for deloadif from this type of training to reduce the risk of injury every 6 weeks or so. It's TUT and load that induces hypertrophy not how many reps and sets you can bust
    You hit a lot of "minor" points in your list that actually make a HUGE difference. As someone who read and liked Mentzer's work a lot - it took me years to realize that I was missing some of the point because I thought it was a minor part of the training. One is, absolute failure isn't JUST going until you can't lift it. There are three phases of a movement - lifting, static, lowering. Lowering is the strongest phase and when you hit failure on this phase (which requires a spotter for most exercises) - that is absolute failure. Try doing 5 sets like that and then tell me you need 20 sets to hit a bodypart effectively.

    Second - slow and controlled. Mentzer had a cadence of 4/2/4 or something like that - and I always missed that. I probably saw it but ignored it because it seemed harder and I knew I would lift as much weight - but I also thought it was minor. Lifting in that fashion though, greatly reduces injuries, etc. and improves results.

    I will say though - high intensity workouts are not the ONLY tool in the toolbox. You may not NEED to go to absolute failure to stimulate a response. Volume and frequency are also tools that can be used, and keeping the same principles in mind and modulating intensity can have some merits too.

    HST, 5X5, 5/3/1 - these programs all modulate intensity, volume and frequency. 5X5, for instance, prescribes a volume and frequency - but the intensity will vary and is usually designed to be lower. You start off with a weight that 5X5 is easy, and then consistently add until suddenly you are doing 4X5 and then 1X3 on your last set. That is really the first time you are at failure - on that 1X3 set. Then you stick to it until 5X5 is achieved and slowly add again. You will only be hitting failure 1X per workout most times (or less), and it will only be positive failure, no negatives.

    Or, I've been doing a routine I came up with that I can run 4-6 times a week, and I train the entire body every 2 workouts....

    Workout A:
    Squats
    Bench Presses
    Dumbbell Curls
    Lying French Presses

    Workout B
    Deadlifts
    Pull Ups
    Bent-Over Rows
    Military Presses

    Each exercise is done for 2 sets. First set is with a weight that allows me to get 15 reps, second set I add weight and do 5 reps. When I can do 15/5 I increase weight. If 15 or 5 reps with a weight is easy, I stop anyway at the rep range. If I get 12 reps on the 15 rep set, that is it, I go to positive failure and that's it.

    It's not the most intense thing I've ever done, but with relatively little volume and moderate intensity - I can hit a bodypart in 2-3 days and still see improvements.
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