Do you guys think a 160 lb Dumbbell Curl is impressive?

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    But it's very possible that my logic is flawed (as per Rodjas post)
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    My main argument to this point is the pulling movements work the bicep (because I can't understand how they are involved in the movement but not worked by it) so when you do your pulling motions you're still training the bicep.Which is what I thought the reasoning behind telling people to lower total arm volume (isolation) because it could stress the recovery of those smaller muscles that are already stressed in pulling/pushing motions.
    Rows will work the biceps in the same way that the BB'ing bench press will work the triceps: not that much. They're involved, but are not going to be the weak area or primary mover. My reasoning for limiting arm volume is to put that extra volume and effort into compound movements instead of focusing on beach muscle day.
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    There is not a rowing variation where the biceps and brachialis are not either synergists or stabilizers.

    They certainly are synergists during pullups.

    Hell, strong biceps are even a stabilizer during a bench press.

    Ignoring an important link in many chains of movement is stupid and limiting. Sure, you can gain without direct work as the inherent indirect work of virtually any routine will strengthen the biceps and brachialis but sandbagging is dumb.

    Not only that, but who says the importance of biceps is even based on some powerlifting ideals?

    It's weird how certain powerlifters seem to feel there aren't weight training goals outside of powerlifting. I'm looking at you, Celorza.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    There is not a rowing variation where the biceps and brachialis are not either synergists or stabilizers.

    They certainly are synergists during pullups.

    Hell, strong biceps are even a stabilizer during a bench press.

    Ignoring an important link in many chains of movement is stupid and limiting. Sure, you can gain without direct work as the inherent indirect work of virtually any routine will strengthen the biceps and brachialis but sandbagging is dumb.

    Not only that, but who says the importance of biceps is even based on some powerlifting ideals?

    It's weird how certain powerlifters seem to feel there aren't weight training goals outside of powerlifting. I'm looking at you, Celorza.

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    I will honor this post by merely laughing at it...I loved the Synergism and Stabilizer portion of it...specially the bench stabilizer...I did not know that Biceps were code for Scapula and Rear Delts !
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Rows will work the biceps in the same way that the BB'ing bench press will work the triceps: not that much. They're involved, but are not going to be the weak area or primary mover. My reasoning for limiting arm volume is to put that extra volume and effort into compound movements instead of focusing on beach muscle day.
    People having issues with lockout on bench isn't related to the triceps? (Possibly a myth I picked up here)
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    People having issues with lockout on bench isn't related to the triceps? (Possibly a myth I picked up here)
    That's why I said the BB'ing bench, which is not about 1RM. Now, the PL'ing bench is very much about the strength of the triceps, but not the BB'ing version.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    People having issues with lockout on bench isn't related to the triceps? (Possibly a myth I picked up here)
    I see it as how you keep the push towards the lift, it depends mainly on CNS adaptation and carryovers from other lifts (IE Floor Press) and also with the direct assistance work.

    For me doing floor press and/or heavy CGBP is what helps the top portion of the lift, IMO it is a mix of getting used to "keep pushing" through the lift (so more motor coordination and CNS involvement) and also strength from the assisting muscles that are directly engaged in the lift.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    I will honor this post by merely laughing at it...I loved the Synergism and Stabilizer portion of it...specially the bench stabilizer...I did not know that Biceps were code for Scapula and Rear Delts !
    I'm still not sure if you even lift weights or just enjoy acting like a clown.

    Here is a link to an article by Jim Wendler:

    http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...r-bench-press/

    Laugh away, Celorza. I'll take Wendlers word over your skepticism myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    I'm still not sure if you even lift weights or just enjoy acting like a clown.

    Here is a link to an article by Jim Wendler:

    http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...r-bench-press/

    Laugh away, Celorza. I'll take Wendlers word over your skepticism myself.
    Sorry chump, you stepped in MY ground...PL bench really is built by the following:
    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...D3-mcd01.hydra

    I don't see NO biceps there, and I will take Dave Tate's word over Jim Wendler's any day of the month.

    Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    I'm still not sure if you even lift weights or just enjoy acting like a clown.

    Here is a link to an article by Jim Wendler:



    Laugh away, Celorza. I'll take Wendlers word over your skepticism myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Sorry chump, you stepped in MY ground...PL bench really is built by the following:


    I don't see NO biceps there, and I will take Dave Tate's word over Jim Wendler's any day of the month.

    Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post

    I see it as how you keep the push towards the lift, it depends mainly on CNS adaptation and carryovers from other lifts (IE Floor Press) and also with the direct assistance work.

    For me doing floor press and/or heavy CGBP is what helps the top portion of the lift, IMO it is a mix of getting used to "keep pushing" through the lift (so more motor coordination and CNS involvement) and also strength from the assisting muscles that are directly engaged in the lift.
    CGBP and Floor Press place more stress on the triceps than other pressing motions. (At least this is my understanding)

    Which I thought was the point of adding them into a program to strengthen the triceps for the lockout of the bench press.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post

    That's why I said the BB'ing bench, which is not about 1RM. Now, the PL'ing bench is very much about the strength of the triceps, but not the BB'ing version.
    I missed that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    I'm still not sure if you even lift weights or just enjoy acting like a clown.

    Here is a link to an article by Jim Wendler:

    http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...r-bench-press/

    Laugh away, Celorza. I'll take Wendlers word over your skepticism myself.
    Anyhow, I'll do some justice to Wendler and why he might've said this...

    Jim Wendler trains with the mentality of "Training like a Bodybuilder" NOT in a bad sad way, but meaning he encourages people to Keep Balance, and not to only focus on triceps and chest for the bench (example) but to focus on overall becoming stronger...

    He himself pointed out in the number one point there to gain weight right? Well I presume his intent for wanting people to have bigger biceps is the fact that it keeps "balance" in the upper arm NOT AS STABILIZING balance you bloody nincompoop , but as "balance" in growth and development of the arm...alas more weight will mean better leverages.

    I do NOT agree with it, but I guess I know where he is coming from with that point...(Read the 5/3/1 book if you wanna know what I mean by his quote of "Train like a bodybuilder")
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    CGBP and Floor Press place more stress on the triceps than other pressing motions. (At least this is my understanding)

    Which I thought was the point of adding them into a program to strengthen the triceps for the lockout of the bench press.
    I was agreeing with you lol hence why I mentioned those 2 and also the way that CNS and motor activation and fiber recruitment co-relate Jimbo.
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    Feisty thread! I'm rather upset I actually watched that video...I want that 10 seconds on my life back
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    I will justify your self admitted stance as a "neophyte" justifying Wendler with a laugh.

    And yeah, focusing on becoming stronger overall... incorporating bicep training to do so (wouldn't need to if it didn't have an effect on overall strength)... the whole entire discussion in this thread... I don't know bro. I think this thread is done. You have a powerlifting demi-god advocating direct bicep training and bodybuilders don't need to be sold.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Anyhow, I'll do some justice to Wendler and why he might've said this...

    Jim Wendler trains with the mentality of "Training like a Bodybuilder" NOT in a bad sad way, but meaning he encourages people to Keep Balance, and not to only focus on triceps and chest for the bench (example) but to focus on overall becoming stronger...

    He himself pointed out in the number one point there to gain weight right? Well I presume his intent for wanting people to have bigger biceps is the fact that it keeps "balance" in the upper arm NOT AS STABILIZING balance you bloody nincompoop , but as "balance" in growth and development of the arm...alas more weight will mean better leverages.

    I do NOT agree with it, but I guess I know where he is coming from with that point...(Read the 5/3/1 book if you wanna know what I mean by his quote of "Train like a bodybuilder")
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    I will justify your self admitted stance as a "neophyte" justifying Wendler with a laugh.

    And yeah, focusing on becoming stronger overall... incorporating bicep training to do so (wouldn't need to if it didn't have an effect on overall strength)... the whole entire discussion in this thread... I don't know bro. I think this thread is done. You have a powerlifting demi-god advocating direct bicep training and bodybuilders don't need to be sold.
    You just don't know when to shut up haha. On second thought, you also don't know when to pick up a book in Logic (at least Aristotelean logic haha) to be able to form a proper complete argument.

    Keep at it Fridge Head !
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    can you guys just fukin agree that the video was pointless? this dude is probly laughing at the argument he started
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    You just don't know when to shut up haha. On second thought, you also don't know when to pick up a book in Logic (at least Aristotelean logic haha) to be able to form a proper complete argument.

    Keep at it Fridge Head !
    Alright then Chestcrack.

    One thing I learned in this thread is that Celorza knows more than Wendler!

    In defense of training the biceps though, we have an obvious answer. From rows to bench press.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Sorry chump, you stepped in MY ground...PL bench really is built by the following:
    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...D3-mcd01.hydra

    I don't see NO biceps there, and I will take Dave Tate's word over Jim Wendler's any day of the month.

    Thanks.
    Dave Tate sanctioned Jim Wendler by publishing the article on his website. Of course biceps aren't the primary muscle group for the bench press, that isn't the argument. At all.

    You are a complete fool if you don't believe bicep training isn't beneficial to strength gains in a variety of lifts. Let's not get distracted. You are simply wrong. I don't expect you to admit it, but the thread really is over.
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    So, Wendler's one article about bicep training automatically proves the efficacy? What's funny is that there have been countless articles about strength training and how to increase one's total and that is the only one I've ever seen that directly extolls biceps (not to say the others demonize it). There's also a large element of marketing about this as Wendler is now a one-man business. Rewriting PL info that has been repeated for decades will not make you stand out; making an outside the box statement will.

    At the time, Wendler worked for EFS and most likely had free reign to post whatever he would like. Tate also is not the editor for EFS and hasn't been so for some time now.
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    I like to do curls.
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    And trapp mann does bumbell curls; surely he can't be wrong.
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    Pretty impressive like curling on the squat rack...
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatMoar View Post
    Pretty impressive like curling on the squat rack...
    My gym only has 3 barbells in the entire place...I hate it so much. lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by MidwestBeast

    My gym only has 3 barbells in the entire place...I hate it so much. lol
    planet fitness?

    oh wait, they dont have any barbells. just smith machines lawl
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnionKnight View Post
    planet fitness?

    oh wait, they dont have any barbells. just smith machines lawl
    No chance. It's an Anytime Fitness and it has everything I need and is dirt cheap, so it just works. I'm not a fan of a number of the things, but I've been there for 3 years so I just tolerate it until I move.

    And we just got a PF in town and I ripped up the mail I got from them. I wanted to go there just to deadlift and get kicked out. lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Curls have no value in life IMO...you do not compete in any federation for a bicep curl...and sorry but I see no need to build a huge bicep curl number. I do think some people do need and crave the growth in the bicep...that is to each his own...no idea why they need it or want it so much (seeing how it is almost useless in any major lift...) but for posing competitions and aesthetic self-love...well I guess you don't even need that much weight (or cheat in form) to achieve it.
    Thanks for your opinion . . . now stop arguing as if only YOUR point of view is valid. Not everyone is a powerlifter, so not everyone cares about your opinion.

    I am not a powerlifter so I g for aesthetics, I want a balanced upper arm. I see guys at the gym who ONLY work their bicep and ignore the tricep, it looks ridiculous aesthetically.

    So to ME you POV is invalid, the curl IS important TO ME . . . . so now you can STFU
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    Quote Originally Posted by napalm View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by p5sky View Post
    Thanks for your opinion . . . now stop arguing as if only YOUR point of view is valid. Not everyone is a powerlifter, so not everyone cares about your opinion.

    I am not a powerlifter so I g for aesthetics, I want a balanced upper arm. I see guys at the gym who ONLY work their bicep and ignore the tricep, it looks ridiculous aesthetically.

    So to ME you POV is invalid, the curl IS important TO ME . . . . so now you can STFU
    agreed....some of us could care less about 1rm maxes and are over 20 years old so what muscles are used in what sport means nothing

    tell this guy biceps aren't needed...i'm sure his sandow's will say otherwise
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    I see Notifications that Paul has quoted me, have seen them for a while yet I can't see the messages...

    Mr. Triathlon teacher does know I have him on ignore right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by p5sky View Post

    Thanks for your opinion . . . now stop arguing as if only YOUR point of view is valid. Not everyone is a powerlifter, so not everyone cares about your opinion.

    I am not a powerlifter so I g for aesthetics, I want a balanced upper arm. I see guys at the gym who ONLY work their bicep and ignore the tricep, it looks ridiculous aesthetically.

    So to ME you POV is invalid, the curl IS important TO ME . . . . so now you can STFU

    I would have to agree. Seeing the curl ain't gonna hurt no one, id say if you wanna do it curl all you like. Who doesn't like bigger upper arms? Well, I guess if ya jealous....
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    man arny was one sexy mutherfuker back in his rime
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    I see Notifications that Paul has quoted me, have seen them for a while yet I can't see the messages...

    Mr. Triathlon teacher does know I have him on ignore right?
    Why is this guy so arrogant? Does he have an inferiority complex?
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    Quote Originally Posted by p5sky View Post

    Why is this guy so arrogant? Does he have an inferiority complex?
    He's jealous.
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    I need cliffs here lol so will 21s bring up my bench up 50lbs like I read on bb.com? :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by howwedo107 View Post
    I need cliffs here lol so will 21s bring up my bench up 50lbs like I read on bb.com? :P
    depends, wide or narrow grip!
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    Quote Originally Posted by howwedo107 View Post
    I need cliffs here lol so will 21s bring up my bench up 50lbs like I read on bb.com? :P
    Cliffs: Celorza is a douche who believes only his opinion is valid, if you have a different viewpoint then he will belittle you.
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