Do you guys think a 160 lb Dumbbell Curl is impressive?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    As someone who makes endless jokes about my lack of bicep volume (I maybe do 4-5 sets a month), I can tell you for a fact that they are not a limiting factor on rows. I've been cranking out sets of 20 with the 145s for quite some time all while never increasing bicep volume or making an attempt to strengthen them. All-in-all, the biceps have very limited usefulness as a group unless you have heavy arm activity (e.g. pitchers).
    I had been waiting for this, thanks a lot Rodja!

    Wrestlers (grapplers) might need Bicep strength too, I believe Jason mentioned it too...Just talked to a buddy of mine to check that, and yeah he does feel he gets a better hold if he has stronger elbow flexion but yeah other than that nope.

    Also, what's your take on needing to train biceps for bigger pull ups?
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    I had been waiting for this, thanks a lot Rodja!

    Wrestlers (grapplers) might need Bicep strength too, I believe Jason mentioned it too...Just talked to a buddy of mine to check that, and yeah he does feel he gets a better hold if he has stronger elbow flexion but yeah other than that nope.

    Also, what's your take on needing to train biceps for bigger pull ups?
    Curls wouldn't help much for wrestlers as there's a lot of isometric in the clinch that won't be improved with a curl. For pullups, it would depend on the grip being utilized, but, again, we're looking at limited carryover.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  4. Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    I'm not sure about the biceps (or more specifically elbow flexors) contribute to rows or pullups,
    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post

    Jason doesn't seem to think Rows or Pull ups are important for it...I wait for Rodja now, I already told yah my POV that training biceps will NOT lead to a bigger row OR pull up at all (which is your argument, that it is the weakest link in those ones)...My point is that elbow flexors (as the Brachioradialis) are the ones helping out there more than anything, and the biceps is just part of the move and not essential to contributing in the power of the move...

    What I mean to say, (for example) if you train calves, have HUGE calves, and also can do 500lb calf raises (exaggerated a bit...) does it make you go up like 10-20-30lbs on your Squat...? Just wondering...
    You forget your reading glasses? He said he wasn't sure the elbow flexors (not just biceps) and then you use his statement to validate your comments about the elbow flexors being the main assistance....

    Also, I was unaware of the calves having any function that is even remotely similar to that of the biceps. What major joint of the leg do they flex again (as the biceps are elbow flexors, which is a fairly important joint in the upper extremity)

    Apples to oranges with that comparison brother. But I forgot you do know it all, so why argue?

  5. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    You forget your reading glasses? He said he wasn't sure the elbow flexors (not just biceps) and then you use his statement to validate your comments about the elbow flexors being the main assistance....

    Also, I was unaware of the calves having any function that is even remotely similar to that of the biceps. What major joint of the leg do they flex again (as the biceps are elbow flexors, which is a fairly important joint in the upper extremity)

    Apples to oranges with that comparison brother. But I forgot you do know it all, so why argue?
    The calves do play a role in knee flexion.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys

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  6. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    You forget your reading glasses? He said he wasn't sure the elbow flexors (not just biceps) and then you use his statement to validate your comments about the elbow flexors being the main assistance....

    Also, I was unaware of the calves having any function that is even remotely similar to that of the biceps. What major joint of the leg do they flex again (as the biceps are elbow flexors, which is a fairly important joint in the upper extremity)

    Apples to oranges with that comparison brother. But I forgot you do know it all, so why argue?
    ' apples to oranges was your grip comparison too...Grip is essential for any discipline, unlike Mr. Bicep here who is being put on the stand of usefulness...

    Now can you please not get heated up? I am actually trying to argue here in a normal matter...you have your point I have mine, and the experts chime in and out...why make this the "you know it all , why argue?" comment...it's a discussion Jim...
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  7. Cool. I can admit that I am wrong, although I find it hard to believe that rowing movements do not work the biceps (seeing as the general consensus on these boards is that excessive volume for biceps is not necessary because of the work they get during pulling.movements)

    But I know that Jason and Rodja both have significantly more knowledge and experience than I do on the topic.

    I concede defeat oh mighty one as I am here to learn, not to throw the small amount (in comparison to others) in everyone elses face.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Cool. I can admit that I am wrong, although I find it hard to believe that rowing movements do not work the biceps (seeing as the general consensus on these boards is that excessive volume for biceps is not necessary because of the work they get during pulling.movements)

    But I know that Jason and Rodja both have significantly more knowledge and experience than I do on the topic.

    I concede defeat oh mighty one as I am here to learn, not to throw the small amount (in comparison to others) in everyone elses face.
    ' wow that was mature...we were just arguing and I learned something here too...the fact that it does have (albeit little) carryover, and the fact that Ryan and Jason pointed out...that certain sports DO need biceps, so I was wrong too here Jim...
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  9. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post

    The calves do play a role in knee flexion.
    Hmm interesting.

    I was under the impression (apparently false) that the hamstrings were the primary knee flexors.

    How large of a role is it that the calves play in that?

  10. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Cool. I can admit that I am wrong, although I find it hard to believe that rowing movements do not work the biceps (seeing as the general consensus on these boards is that excessive volume for biceps is not necessary because of the work they get during pulling.movements)

    But I know that Jason and Rodja both have significantly more knowledge and experience than I do on the topic.

    I concede defeat oh mighty one as I am here to learn, not to throw the small amount (in comparison to others) in everyone elses face.
    It depends on your definition of work versus involved. I would say that they're involved, but not that they really work the biceps.

    Calves don't play a huge role in knee flexion, but they are a two-joint muscle group.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  11. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post

    It depends on your definition of work versus involved. I would say that they're involved, but not that they really work the biceps.

    Calves don't play a huge role in knee flexion, but they are a two-joint muscle group.
    Soo what your saying is rows do involve biceps...and curls work biceps. So wouldn't in turn curls have a direct affect on rows then? Not being a smart ass just genuinely confused at whos arguing what now lol
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  12. Out of a simple "yes or no answered" thread I just learned a crap load. Though I have zero scientific backing, I very rarely work biceps and it has not hindered my ability to progress in all pulling movements.
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  13. Quote Originally Posted by Sean1332 View Post
    Out of a simple "yes or no answered" thread I just learned a crap load. Though I have zero scientific backing, I very rarely work biceps and it has not hindered my ability to progress in all pulling movements.
    I can say the same for that last bit too, my rows have gone up the same with or without direct bicep training. My Bi's haven't grown though, but I don't really want them to haha.
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  14. Quote Originally Posted by Danb2285 View Post
    Soo what your saying is rows do involve biceps...and curls work biceps. So wouldn't in turn curls have a direct affect on rows then? Not being a smart ass just genuinely confused at his arguing what now lol
    You would think so by that logic, but most do not put enough emphasis on horizontal extension to see dividends. The biceps are a secondary mover and are most likely not going to be the weak point in the movement. I have yet to see someone whose weak point in pullups/rows is the biceps.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  15. Quote Originally Posted by Sean1332 View Post
    Out of a simple "yes or no answered" thread I just learned a crap load. Though I have zero scientific backing, I very rarely work biceps and it has not hindered my ability to progress in all pulling movements.
    My main argument to this point is the pulling movements work the bicep (because I can't understand how they are involved in the movement but not worked by it) so when you do your pulling motions you're still training the bicep.

    Which is what I thought the reasoning behind telling people to lower total arm volume (isolation) because it could stress the recovery of those smaller muscles that are already stressed in pulling/pushing motions.

  16. But it's very possible that my logic is flawed (as per Rodjas post)

  17. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    My main argument to this point is the pulling movements work the bicep (because I can't understand how they are involved in the movement but not worked by it) so when you do your pulling motions you're still training the bicep.Which is what I thought the reasoning behind telling people to lower total arm volume (isolation) because it could stress the recovery of those smaller muscles that are already stressed in pulling/pushing motions.
    Rows will work the biceps in the same way that the BB'ing bench press will work the triceps: not that much. They're involved, but are not going to be the weak area or primary mover. My reasoning for limiting arm volume is to put that extra volume and effort into compound movements instead of focusing on beach muscle day.
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  18. There is not a rowing variation where the biceps and brachialis are not either synergists or stabilizers.

    They certainly are synergists during pullups.

    Hell, strong biceps are even a stabilizer during a bench press.

    Ignoring an important link in many chains of movement is stupid and limiting. Sure, you can gain without direct work as the inherent indirect work of virtually any routine will strengthen the biceps and brachialis but sandbagging is dumb.

    Not only that, but who says the importance of biceps is even based on some powerlifting ideals?

    It's weird how certain powerlifters seem to feel there aren't weight training goals outside of powerlifting. I'm looking at you, Celorza.

    "I do sports [get sexy]. Not try to be the best at exercising."

    Kenny Powers.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    There is not a rowing variation where the biceps and brachialis are not either synergists or stabilizers.

    They certainly are synergists during pullups.

    Hell, strong biceps are even a stabilizer during a bench press.

    Ignoring an important link in many chains of movement is stupid and limiting. Sure, you can gain without direct work as the inherent indirect work of virtually any routine will strengthen the biceps and brachialis but sandbagging is dumb.

    Not only that, but who says the importance of biceps is even based on some powerlifting ideals?

    It's weird how certain powerlifters seem to feel there aren't weight training goals outside of powerlifting. I'm looking at you, Celorza.

    "I do sports [get sexy]. Not try to be the best at exercising."

    Kenny Powers.
    I will honor this post by merely laughing at it...I loved the Synergism and Stabilizer portion of it...specially the bench stabilizer...I did not know that Biceps were code for Scapula and Rear Delts !
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  20. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Rows will work the biceps in the same way that the BB'ing bench press will work the triceps: not that much. They're involved, but are not going to be the weak area or primary mover. My reasoning for limiting arm volume is to put that extra volume and effort into compound movements instead of focusing on beach muscle day.
    People having issues with lockout on bench isn't related to the triceps? (Possibly a myth I picked up here)

  21. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    People having issues with lockout on bench isn't related to the triceps? (Possibly a myth I picked up here)
    That's why I said the BB'ing bench, which is not about 1RM. Now, the PL'ing bench is very much about the strength of the triceps, but not the BB'ing version.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  22. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    People having issues with lockout on bench isn't related to the triceps? (Possibly a myth I picked up here)
    I see it as how you keep the push towards the lift, it depends mainly on CNS adaptation and carryovers from other lifts (IE Floor Press) and also with the direct assistance work.

    For me doing floor press and/or heavy CGBP is what helps the top portion of the lift, IMO it is a mix of getting used to "keep pushing" through the lift (so more motor coordination and CNS involvement) and also strength from the assisting muscles that are directly engaged in the lift.
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  23. Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    I will honor this post by merely laughing at it...I loved the Synergism and Stabilizer portion of it...specially the bench stabilizer...I did not know that Biceps were code for Scapula and Rear Delts !
    I'm still not sure if you even lift weights or just enjoy acting like a clown.

    Here is a link to an article by Jim Wendler:

    http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...r-bench-press/

    Laugh away, Celorza. I'll take Wendlers word over your skepticism myself.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    I'm still not sure if you even lift weights or just enjoy acting like a clown.

    Here is a link to an article by Jim Wendler:

    http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...r-bench-press/

    Laugh away, Celorza. I'll take Wendlers word over your skepticism myself.
    Sorry chump, you stepped in MY ground...PL bench really is built by the following:
    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...D3-mcd01.hydra

    I don't see NO biceps there, and I will take Dave Tate's word over Jim Wendler's any day of the month.

    Thanks.
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  25. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    I'm still not sure if you even lift weights or just enjoy acting like a clown.

    Here is a link to an article by Jim Wendler:



    Laugh away, Celorza. I'll take Wendlers word over your skepticism myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Sorry chump, you stepped in MY ground...PL bench really is built by the following:


    I don't see NO biceps there, and I will take Dave Tate's word over Jim Wendler's any day of the month.

    Thanks.
    When Tiger Woods got to technical he lost his game
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