Do you guys think a 160 lb Dumbbell Curl is impressive?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    You forget your reading glasses? He said he wasn't sure the elbow flexors (not just biceps) and then you use his statement to validate your comments about the elbow flexors being the main assistance....

    Also, I was unaware of the calves having any function that is even remotely similar to that of the biceps. What major joint of the leg do they flex again (as the biceps are elbow flexors, which is a fairly important joint in the upper extremity)

    Apples to oranges with that comparison brother. But I forgot you do know it all, so why argue?
    ' apples to oranges was your grip comparison too...Grip is essential for any discipline, unlike Mr. Bicep here who is being put on the stand of usefulness...

    Now can you please not get heated up? I am actually trying to argue here in a normal matter...you have your point I have mine, and the experts chime in and out...why make this the "you know it all , why argue?" comment...it's a discussion Jim...
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  2. Cool. I can admit that I am wrong, although I find it hard to believe that rowing movements do not work the biceps (seeing as the general consensus on these boards is that excessive volume for biceps is not necessary because of the work they get during pulling.movements)

    But I know that Jason and Rodja both have significantly more knowledge and experience than I do on the topic.

    I concede defeat oh mighty one as I am here to learn, not to throw the small amount (in comparison to others) in everyone elses face.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Cool. I can admit that I am wrong, although I find it hard to believe that rowing movements do not work the biceps (seeing as the general consensus on these boards is that excessive volume for biceps is not necessary because of the work they get during pulling.movements)

    But I know that Jason and Rodja both have significantly more knowledge and experience than I do on the topic.

    I concede defeat oh mighty one as I am here to learn, not to throw the small amount (in comparison to others) in everyone elses face.
    ' wow that was mature...we were just arguing and I learned something here too...the fact that it does have (albeit little) carryover, and the fact that Ryan and Jason pointed out...that certain sports DO need biceps, so I was wrong too here Jim...
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  4. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post

    The calves do play a role in knee flexion.
    Hmm interesting.

    I was under the impression (apparently false) that the hamstrings were the primary knee flexors.

    How large of a role is it that the calves play in that?

  5. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Cool. I can admit that I am wrong, although I find it hard to believe that rowing movements do not work the biceps (seeing as the general consensus on these boards is that excessive volume for biceps is not necessary because of the work they get during pulling.movements)

    But I know that Jason and Rodja both have significantly more knowledge and experience than I do on the topic.

    I concede defeat oh mighty one as I am here to learn, not to throw the small amount (in comparison to others) in everyone elses face.
    It depends on your definition of work versus involved. I would say that they're involved, but not that they really work the biceps.

    Calves don't play a huge role in knee flexion, but they are a two-joint muscle group.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys

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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post

    It depends on your definition of work versus involved. I would say that they're involved, but not that they really work the biceps.

    Calves don't play a huge role in knee flexion, but they are a two-joint muscle group.
    Soo what your saying is rows do involve biceps...and curls work biceps. So wouldn't in turn curls have a direct affect on rows then? Not being a smart ass just genuinely confused at whos arguing what now lol
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  7. Out of a simple "yes or no answered" thread I just learned a crap load. Though I have zero scientific backing, I very rarely work biceps and it has not hindered my ability to progress in all pulling movements.
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  8. Quote Originally Posted by Sean1332 View Post
    Out of a simple "yes or no answered" thread I just learned a crap load. Though I have zero scientific backing, I very rarely work biceps and it has not hindered my ability to progress in all pulling movements.
    I can say the same for that last bit too, my rows have gone up the same with or without direct bicep training. My Bi's haven't grown though, but I don't really want them to haha.
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  9. Quote Originally Posted by Danb2285 View Post
    Soo what your saying is rows do involve biceps...and curls work biceps. So wouldn't in turn curls have a direct affect on rows then? Not being a smart ass just genuinely confused at his arguing what now lol
    You would think so by that logic, but most do not put enough emphasis on horizontal extension to see dividends. The biceps are a secondary mover and are most likely not going to be the weak point in the movement. I have yet to see someone whose weak point in pullups/rows is the biceps.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  10. Quote Originally Posted by Sean1332 View Post
    Out of a simple "yes or no answered" thread I just learned a crap load. Though I have zero scientific backing, I very rarely work biceps and it has not hindered my ability to progress in all pulling movements.
    My main argument to this point is the pulling movements work the bicep (because I can't understand how they are involved in the movement but not worked by it) so when you do your pulling motions you're still training the bicep.

    Which is what I thought the reasoning behind telling people to lower total arm volume (isolation) because it could stress the recovery of those smaller muscles that are already stressed in pulling/pushing motions.

  11. But it's very possible that my logic is flawed (as per Rodjas post)

  12. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    My main argument to this point is the pulling movements work the bicep (because I can't understand how they are involved in the movement but not worked by it) so when you do your pulling motions you're still training the bicep.Which is what I thought the reasoning behind telling people to lower total arm volume (isolation) because it could stress the recovery of those smaller muscles that are already stressed in pulling/pushing motions.
    Rows will work the biceps in the same way that the BB'ing bench press will work the triceps: not that much. They're involved, but are not going to be the weak area or primary mover. My reasoning for limiting arm volume is to put that extra volume and effort into compound movements instead of focusing on beach muscle day.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  13. There is not a rowing variation where the biceps and brachialis are not either synergists or stabilizers.

    They certainly are synergists during pullups.

    Hell, strong biceps are even a stabilizer during a bench press.

    Ignoring an important link in many chains of movement is stupid and limiting. Sure, you can gain without direct work as the inherent indirect work of virtually any routine will strengthen the biceps and brachialis but sandbagging is dumb.

    Not only that, but who says the importance of biceps is even based on some powerlifting ideals?

    It's weird how certain powerlifters seem to feel there aren't weight training goals outside of powerlifting. I'm looking at you, Celorza.

    "I do sports [get sexy]. Not try to be the best at exercising."

    Kenny Powers.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    There is not a rowing variation where the biceps and brachialis are not either synergists or stabilizers.

    They certainly are synergists during pullups.

    Hell, strong biceps are even a stabilizer during a bench press.

    Ignoring an important link in many chains of movement is stupid and limiting. Sure, you can gain without direct work as the inherent indirect work of virtually any routine will strengthen the biceps and brachialis but sandbagging is dumb.

    Not only that, but who says the importance of biceps is even based on some powerlifting ideals?

    It's weird how certain powerlifters seem to feel there aren't weight training goals outside of powerlifting. I'm looking at you, Celorza.

    "I do sports [get sexy]. Not try to be the best at exercising."

    Kenny Powers.
    I will honor this post by merely laughing at it...I loved the Synergism and Stabilizer portion of it...specially the bench stabilizer...I did not know that Biceps were code for Scapula and Rear Delts !
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  15. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Rows will work the biceps in the same way that the BB'ing bench press will work the triceps: not that much. They're involved, but are not going to be the weak area or primary mover. My reasoning for limiting arm volume is to put that extra volume and effort into compound movements instead of focusing on beach muscle day.
    People having issues with lockout on bench isn't related to the triceps? (Possibly a myth I picked up here)

  16. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    People having issues with lockout on bench isn't related to the triceps? (Possibly a myth I picked up here)
    That's why I said the BB'ing bench, which is not about 1RM. Now, the PL'ing bench is very much about the strength of the triceps, but not the BB'ing version.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  17. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    People having issues with lockout on bench isn't related to the triceps? (Possibly a myth I picked up here)
    I see it as how you keep the push towards the lift, it depends mainly on CNS adaptation and carryovers from other lifts (IE Floor Press) and also with the direct assistance work.

    For me doing floor press and/or heavy CGBP is what helps the top portion of the lift, IMO it is a mix of getting used to "keep pushing" through the lift (so more motor coordination and CNS involvement) and also strength from the assisting muscles that are directly engaged in the lift.
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  18. Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    I will honor this post by merely laughing at it...I loved the Synergism and Stabilizer portion of it...specially the bench stabilizer...I did not know that Biceps were code for Scapula and Rear Delts !
    I'm still not sure if you even lift weights or just enjoy acting like a clown.

    Here is a link to an article by Jim Wendler:

    http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...r-bench-press/

    Laugh away, Celorza. I'll take Wendlers word over your skepticism myself.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    I'm still not sure if you even lift weights or just enjoy acting like a clown.

    Here is a link to an article by Jim Wendler:

    http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...r-bench-press/

    Laugh away, Celorza. I'll take Wendlers word over your skepticism myself.
    Sorry chump, you stepped in MY ground...PL bench really is built by the following:
    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...D3-mcd01.hydra

    I don't see NO biceps there, and I will take Dave Tate's word over Jim Wendler's any day of the month.

    Thanks.
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  20. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    I'm still not sure if you even lift weights or just enjoy acting like a clown.

    Here is a link to an article by Jim Wendler:



    Laugh away, Celorza. I'll take Wendlers word over your skepticism myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Sorry chump, you stepped in MY ground...PL bench really is built by the following:


    I don't see NO biceps there, and I will take Dave Tate's word over Jim Wendler's any day of the month.

    Thanks.
    When Tiger Woods got to technical he lost his game

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post

    I see it as how you keep the push towards the lift, it depends mainly on CNS adaptation and carryovers from other lifts (IE Floor Press) and also with the direct assistance work.

    For me doing floor press and/or heavy CGBP is what helps the top portion of the lift, IMO it is a mix of getting used to "keep pushing" through the lift (so more motor coordination and CNS involvement) and also strength from the assisting muscles that are directly engaged in the lift.
    CGBP and Floor Press place more stress on the triceps than other pressing motions. (At least this is my understanding)

    Which I thought was the point of adding them into a program to strengthen the triceps for the lockout of the bench press.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post

    That's why I said the BB'ing bench, which is not about 1RM. Now, the PL'ing bench is very much about the strength of the triceps, but not the BB'ing version.
    I missed that.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    I'm still not sure if you even lift weights or just enjoy acting like a clown.

    Here is a link to an article by Jim Wendler:

    http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...r-bench-press/

    Laugh away, Celorza. I'll take Wendlers word over your skepticism myself.
    Anyhow, I'll do some justice to Wendler and why he might've said this...

    Jim Wendler trains with the mentality of "Training like a Bodybuilder" NOT in a bad sad way, but meaning he encourages people to Keep Balance, and not to only focus on triceps and chest for the bench (example) but to focus on overall becoming stronger...

    He himself pointed out in the number one point there to gain weight right? Well I presume his intent for wanting people to have bigger biceps is the fact that it keeps "balance" in the upper arm NOT AS STABILIZING balance you bloody nincompoop , but as "balance" in growth and development of the arm...alas more weight will mean better leverages.

    I do NOT agree with it, but I guess I know where he is coming from with that point...(Read the 5/3/1 book if you wanna know what I mean by his quote of "Train like a bodybuilder")
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  24. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    CGBP and Floor Press place more stress on the triceps than other pressing motions. (At least this is my understanding)

    Which I thought was the point of adding them into a program to strengthen the triceps for the lockout of the bench press.
    I was agreeing with you lol hence why I mentioned those 2 and also the way that CNS and motor activation and fiber recruitment co-relate Jimbo.
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  25. Feisty thread! I'm rather upset I actually watched that video...I want that 10 seconds on my life back

  26. I will justify your self admitted stance as a "neophyte" justifying Wendler with a laugh.

    And yeah, focusing on becoming stronger overall... incorporating bicep training to do so (wouldn't need to if it didn't have an effect on overall strength)... the whole entire discussion in this thread... I don't know bro. I think this thread is done. You have a powerlifting demi-god advocating direct bicep training and bodybuilders don't need to be sold.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Anyhow, I'll do some justice to Wendler and why he might've said this...

    Jim Wendler trains with the mentality of "Training like a Bodybuilder" NOT in a bad sad way, but meaning he encourages people to Keep Balance, and not to only focus on triceps and chest for the bench (example) but to focus on overall becoming stronger...

    He himself pointed out in the number one point there to gain weight right? Well I presume his intent for wanting people to have bigger biceps is the fact that it keeps "balance" in the upper arm NOT AS STABILIZING balance you bloody nincompoop , but as "balance" in growth and development of the arm...alas more weight will mean better leverages.

    I do NOT agree with it, but I guess I know where he is coming from with that point...(Read the 5/3/1 book if you wanna know what I mean by his quote of "Train like a bodybuilder")

  27. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    I will justify your self admitted stance as a "neophyte" justifying Wendler with a laugh.

    And yeah, focusing on becoming stronger overall... incorporating bicep training to do so (wouldn't need to if it didn't have an effect on overall strength)... the whole entire discussion in this thread... I don't know bro. I think this thread is done. You have a powerlifting demi-god advocating direct bicep training and bodybuilders don't need to be sold.
    You just don't know when to shut up haha. On second thought, you also don't know when to pick up a book in Logic (at least Aristotelean logic haha) to be able to form a proper complete argument.

    Keep at it Fridge Head !
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  28. can you guys just fukin agree that the video was pointless? this dude is probly laughing at the argument he started

  29. Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    You just don't know when to shut up haha. On second thought, you also don't know when to pick up a book in Logic (at least Aristotelean logic haha) to be able to form a proper complete argument.

    Keep at it Fridge Head !
    Alright then Chestcrack.

    One thing I learned in this thread is that Celorza knows more than Wendler!

    In defense of training the biceps though, we have an obvious answer. From rows to bench press.

  30. Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Sorry chump, you stepped in MY ground...PL bench really is built by the following:
    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...D3-mcd01.hydra

    I don't see NO biceps there, and I will take Dave Tate's word over Jim Wendler's any day of the month.

    Thanks.
    Dave Tate sanctioned Jim Wendler by publishing the article on his website. Of course biceps aren't the primary muscle group for the bench press, that isn't the argument. At all.

    You are a complete fool if you don't believe bicep training isn't beneficial to strength gains in a variety of lifts. Let's not get distracted. You are simply wrong. I don't expect you to admit it, but the thread really is over.
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