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what do you guys think?

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    what do you guys think?


    sup guys?
    look, i training ~2 year and from begining till now i trained 5days/week monday chest, tues back, wed off, thur legs, fri shoulders, sat arms.. sure i changed exercises time to time, and did chest with triceps, back with biceps ect, but mostly one bodypart per day 5days/week.. i can tell my strength going up pretty well, but that view in the mirror does not changes..
    Can it be due my diet, coz i started eat cleen only 1 and half month ago, or i need change my workout to totally diferent one?

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    i thinking to try monday pull, wednesday push, friday legs.. any one tried this any good for size?
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    Work with a full body routine. There's a few problems I have with splits like that, but if you're a natural lifter then five straight days is going to cause your endocrine system to overload and produce a lot of catabolic hormones in place of their natural anabolic hormones; this alone will cause a quicker plateau.

    Perform each movement with lower volume and more weight once every four - five days. I would look into something like the conjugate method, DC, or HST.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    Work with a full body routine. There's a few problems I have with splits like that, but if you're a natural lifter then five straight days is going to cause your endocrine system to overload and produce a lot of catabolic hormones in place of their natural anabolic hormones; this alone will cause a quicker plateau.

    Perform each movement with lower volume and more weight once every four - five days. I would look into something like the conjugate method, DC, or HST.
    i don't wana do full body, coz few big guys said if you wana be big you have to do splits, they said full body is more for beginers..
    but i don't wana do splits either..
    what do you think of that:

    monday bench press 3x6-12
    flys 3x8-12
    shaoulder press 3x6-12
    side lat 3x8-12
    weighted dips 3x 6-12
    skulls 3x 6-12

    tuesday squat 4x 8-12
    bb rows 3x8-12
    pull ups 3x 12
    bb curls 3x 6-12
    hammer curls 3x 8-12

    wednesday off

    thursday incline press 3x6-12
    cable crosovers 3x10-12
    db front raises 3x8-12
    wide grip upright rows 3x8-12
    cable pushdowns 3x 8-12
    one arm ower head db ext 3x8-12

    friday leg press 4x 8-12
    deadlifts 5x5
    pullups 3x12
    db curls 3x6-12
    rewerse grip cable curls 3x 6-12

    sat off
    sun off

    does this make any sence?
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    Too many isolations. The big guys are most likely steroid users. Contrary to what they said, studies have shown lower volume:higher frequency to be better for mass for natural lifters. That's how splits came into training - steroids. Take a look at the size of powerlifters. Size is determined by calories.

    All of those isolations results in slower progress on your big lifts and imbalances in a lot of muscle groups, plus all of that time you'd be spending in the gym will release a lot more catabolic hormones. Bodybuilders do not have to worry about this because of steroid use.

    First thing about split routines is the fact that you hammer a single muscle and then do not train it again for a week, there are a lot wrong with this.

    1- Spreading the volume out over the week you have more chances to progress, you recuperate faster, and you focus more on the bigger lifts.

    2- Imbalance is caused by too much focus on a specific muscle group in comparison to their antagonist. Rotator cuff injuries are higher in bodybuilders than any other sport relative to weightlifting.

    3- Muscle grows through food and overload. It is easier to overload a muscle while training is with less volume, so that the lifts are able to progress faster.

    I would look into either:

    1- the 5/3/1 routine
    2- Westside (the conjugate method)
    3- Hypertrophy Specific Training
    4- Doggcrap training
    5- An upper/lower split

    Monday - Horizontal Maintenance | Vertical Emphasis
    1- Bench Press
    2- Barbell Row
    3- Press
    4- Pullup

    Tuesday- Quad Emphasis | Posterior Chain Maintenance
    1- Front Squat
    2- Deadlift
    3- Lunges
    4- Core

    Thursday- Vertical Emphasis | Horizontal Maintenance
    1- Press
    2- Pullup
    3- Bench Press
    4- Barbell Row

    Friday- Posterior Chain Emphasis | Quad Maintenance
    1- Squat
    2- GHR
    3- Lunges
    4- Core

    Those routines will do far more for you than a split intended for a roided out bodybuilder that claims the existence of anatomical proven non-exist muscles, coupled with being genetic freaks that would grow from walking up a set of stairs.

    Get your lifts up and eat big, that is how muscle is built.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    Too many isolations. The big guys are most likely steroid users. Contrary to what they said, studies have shown lower volume:higher frequency to be better for mass for natural lifters. That's how splits came into training - steroids. Take a look at the size of powerlifters. Size is determined by calories.

    All of those isolations results in slower progress on your big lifts and imbalances in a lot of muscle groups, plus all of that time you'd be spending in the gym will release a lot more catabolic hormones. Bodybuilders do not have to worry about this because of steroid use.

    First thing about split routines is the fact that you hammer a single muscle and then do not train it again for a week, there are a lot wrong with this.

    1- Spreading the volume out over the week you have more chances to progress, you recuperate faster, and you focus more on the bigger lifts.

    2- Imbalance is caused by too much focus on a specific muscle group in comparison to their antagonist. Rotator cuff injuries are higher in bodybuilders than any other sport relative to weightlifting.

    3- Muscle grows through food and overload. It is easier to overload a muscle while training is with less volume, so that the lifts are able to progress faster.

    I would look into either:

    1- the 5/3/1 routine
    2- Westside (the conjugate method)
    3- Hypertrophy Specific Training
    4- Doggcrap training
    5- An upper/lower split

    Monday - Horizontal Maintenance | Vertical Emphasis
    1- Bench Press
    2- Barbell Row
    3- Press
    4- Pullup

    Tuesday- Quad Emphasis | Posterior Chain Maintenance
    1- Front Squat
    2- Deadlift
    3- Lunges
    4- Core

    Thursday- Vertical Emphasis | Horizontal Maintenance
    1- Press
    2- Pullup
    3- Bench Press
    4- Barbell Row

    Friday- Posterior Chain Emphasis | Quad Maintenance
    1- Squat
    2- GHR
    3- Lunges
    4- Core

    Those routines will do far more for you than a split intended for a roided out bodybuilder that claims the existence of anatomical proven non-exist muscles, coupled with being genetic freaks that would grow from walking up a set of stairs.

    Get your lifts up and eat big, that is how muscle is built.
    thanks mate. i may do this routine wich you layed out..
    question; what means press you mean shoulder press? and what means GHR?
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    Press = overhead press.

    GHR = glute/ham raise.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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    see, im all for 3 day training mass programs, but i dont get sore on them other than legs. i need to have flat and bench and flys on one day to feel anything ya know? sure if i wanna break a peak ill do 5x5, but i hardly ever have peaks cause i change my routine up so much but its the same outline. i also incorporate the 5x5 once a week to keep high strength gains. i will prob go to 5x5 this summer when i have time. i just cant workout every saturday or wednesday which doesnt allow me to do any of these so i do the bodybuilding routine
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1balla View Post
    see, im all for 3 day training mass programs, but i dont get sore on them other than legs. i need to have flat and bench and flys on one day to feel anything ya know? sure if i wanna break a peak ill do 5x5, but i hardly ever have peaks cause i change my routine up so much but its the same outline. i also incorporate the 5x5 once a week to keep high strength gains. i will prob go to 5x5 this summer when i have time. i just cant workout every saturday or wednesday which doesnt allow me to do any of these so i do the bodybuilding routine
    This is what I'm talking about. There are no good reasons to do flies, unless you have an injury or something preventing you from benching.

    Isolation movements are made for the synergists that are not prime movers of a lift. Examples are biceps, calves, tibialis anterior, abs, lateral deltoids, posterior deltoids, forearms, triceps, and so forth. If your chest isn't adequately growing from bench presses alone you either:

    1- Aren't benching heavy enough, so continue getting stronger
    2- Aren't eating enough
    3- Aren't eating clean enough to notice LBM gains
    4- Your technique sucks

    Muscle grows from progressive overload. How do you expect to make continuous gains on an isolation exercise like flies? You could easily add mass quicker with bench presses at the compromise of no plateaus, but you cannot say the same about flies.

    Once you get your bench up to 1.5x your bodyweight or more, I could see a reason for looking for accessories to your chest, but there are far better exercises than flies. How many powerlifters do you see using flies?
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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    i disagree, flys are essential in developing a full chest. you have to hit a muscle group from a variety of angles and methods to devlop it fully. thinking a full chest can only be achieved through pressess is a big mistake. i do beleive pressess are essential and cant be beat but flys are just as important, so are pullovers and dips.

    i do agree with the big guys however, they are on the roids, but there is logic to their trainnig and even though i am not a roid user i have gotten pretty damn big with a split.when i comes to size i would never advocate a full body routine.

    i believe in low volume high intensity workouts, short in lenght, 30-40 minutes no longer. only three exercises per body part and your done heavy and intense working the muscle beyond failure.

    even just as important as the trainning is the amount of rest you get. i am so sore after every single workout that sometimes i just take the next day off to make sure my muscle arent being over worked. theres a big difference in recovery and growth. when you work a muscle too much it wears down you CNS and IS and those have to heal too causing less growth and more time recovering.

    My routine would look something like this
    Monday: chest
    Half on bench
    Incline Hammer
    Flys

    Tuesday: OFF

    Wednesday:
    Back
    Single arm revers lat pulldowns
    Reverse grip rows
    T bar row

    Thursday: either off or delts/trapsdepending
    DB military
    Side laterals
    BEnt laters
    Reverse grip,close grip shrugs
    Revers grip wide grip shrugs

    Friday: either off or arms
    BB curl
    Incline curl
    Single arm preacher
    V bar press downs
    french press
    over head ext.
    writs curls
    behind rist wurls
    revers curls

    Satff or legs
    squat
    leg press
    leg ext
    leg curl
    standing calve raises
    seated caleve raises

    sunday: off

    however, the biggest part and the hardest i fell is nutrition. you need to eat to grow and that will help the most. eat eat eat eat and eat some more. this might seem odd to a beginner but after 7 years of trial and error, experimentation and research this is what i have come up with for optimal growth. i added 5 inches on my back/chest, 2 on my arms, 6 on my legs, 4 on my calves and 2.5 on my foreamrs. all in an 8 month time frame. very sick. best of luck my friend.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky5145 View Post
    i disagree, flys are essential in developing a full chest. you have to hit a muscle group from a variety of angles and methods to devlop it fully. thinking a full chest can only be achieved through pressess is a big mistake. i do beleive pressess are essential and cant be beat but flys are just as important, so are pullovers and dips.
    This makes no sense. The chest is one muscle and does not need to be hit at different angles.

    i do agree with the big guys however, they are on the roids, but there is logic to their trainnig and even though i am not a roid user i have gotten pretty damn big with a split.when i comes to size i would never advocate a full body routine.
    That is just stupid. Tell that to the guys at Westside Barbell. Obviously you haven't researched anything and see how the human body works. So I'm assuming HST, DC, Westside, 5/3/1, Starr's 5x5, the Texas Method do not add mass? Tell that to those who have put 60 lbs on from them.

    Muscle grows through overload. Overload is given more opportunity with a full body routine. Full body also has more muscle building hormone benefits.

    i believe in low volume high intensity workouts, short in lenght, 30-40 minutes no longer. only three exercises per body part and your done heavy and intense working the muscle beyond failure.
    Training to failure is stupid. It is not an indicator of progress. It is nothing more than your nervous system giving you a red light.

    And you're contradicting yourself with "low volume high intensity" since that is the opposite of a split.

    even just as important as the trainning is the amount of rest you get. i am so sore after every single workout that sometimes i just take the next day off to make sure my muscle arent being over worked. theres a big difference in recovery and growth. when you work a muscle too much it wears down you CNS and IS and those have to heal too causing less growth and more time recovering.
    You obviously know nothing about the CNS. Read the dual factor theory.

    My routine would look something like this
    Monday: chest
    Half on bench
    Incline Hammer
    Flys

    Tuesday: OFF

    Wednesday:
    Back
    Single arm revers lat pulldowns
    Reverse grip rows
    T bar row

    Thursday: either off or delts/trapsdepending
    DB military
    Side laterals
    BEnt laters
    Reverse grip,close grip shrugs
    Revers grip wide grip shrugs

    Friday: either off or arms
    BB curl
    Incline curl
    Single arm preacher
    V bar press downs
    french press
    over head ext.
    writs curls
    behind rist wurls
    revers curls

    Satff or legs
    squat
    leg press
    leg ext
    leg curl
    standing calve raises
    seated caleve raises

    sunday: off

    however, the biggest part and the hardest i fell is nutrition. you need to eat to grow and that will help the most. eat eat eat eat and eat some more. this might seem odd to a beginner but after 7 years of trial and error, experimentation and research this is what i have come up with for optimal growth. i added 5 inches on my back/chest, 2 on my arms, 6 on my legs, 4 on my calves and 2.5 on my foreamrs. all in an 8 month time frame. very sick. best of luck my friend.
    The routine absolutely sucks and is terribly balanced. Have fun destroying your endocrine system and having slow and boring progress on those 100 useless exercises you named.

    Here. Actually educate yourself with this article on some of the stuff you preach rather than nag on things that are the opposite of the truth.

    Read this if you want to know why full body is better: http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/f...all-wrong.html
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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    two words: Westside Mathod. i started using this method 2.5 years ago and have gone from 165-195 (body fat never over 8%), and my lifts have gone from: squat 305-550, bench 195-365, and deadlift from 450-635. and that is all natural, only supplements used was creatine 6 weeks prior to competitions (compete every 4-6 months), and a 7,000-10,000 cal./day diet.
    with that said, go with a Westside program.
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    if you get this mad over the internet you need to delete your account. .

    stop acting like your the ultimate trainner, your small so stop giving advice like your the big man on the forum
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    also, i wouldnt brag about your top lifts as your signature, i had those lifts years ago and im only 21. i guess my stuff doesnt work after all.....(laugh)

    delete your account
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    Ricky, does that mean i shouldn't brag about any of my lifts either? what could you put up at 195? i only bench 355, squat 550, and deadlift 635, you probably got me beat by at least 30 lbs./lift when you were my weight. and seeing as how i'm only 195 at 6'3, does that means i don't know what im talking about either since im not huge?
    im not being an ass, i'm just having trouble following your logic with linking size to knowledge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by walker11 View Post
    Ricky, does that mean i shouldn't brag about any of my lifts either? what could you put up at 195? i only bench 355, squat 550, and deadlift 635, you probably got me beat by at least 30 lbs./lift when you were my weight. and seeing as how i'm only 195 at 6'3, does that means i don't know what im talking about either since im not huge?
    im not being an ass, i'm just having trouble following your logic with linking size to knowledge.
    my comment's on his lifts had nothing to do with his intelligence. He said my routine was stupid, when in fact it made me stronger than him when i was 4-5 years younger. so I'm sorry if you cant follow my logic, its really black and white. i never once said you dont know what your talking about if your not huge, i said specifically to HIM, that he is acting like he knows everything about gaining mass when in fact if he did, he would be much bigger than 200 lbs. i think your 195 is great, i was there for a long time and i loved it. i just think there's a big window to break through at the 200 mark and not that many people can do it, at this time last year i thought I'd never pass 200. that's why you dont see many 250,260, 270+ guys walking around, but i do see alot of 200's, especially here in college.

    I dont think you are an ass at all. i think you took my message personally when it was directed specifically at him. if you dont agree with me that's fine, we're all different, but there's not need to do what he did and act so childish. i wouldn't take advice from someone like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky5145 View Post
    also, i wouldnt brag about your top lifts as your signature, i had those lifts years ago and im only 21. i guess my stuff doesnt work after all.....(laugh)

    delete your account
    How pathetic. You start attacking someones lifts because you have no arguments? You're just proof of how stupid 21 year olds can be. I didn't know, and apparently no one else on the forum knew, that Westside guys, DC guys, HST guys, and Bill Starr's guys were training wrong.

    I will not delete my account just because some punk kid spreading misinformation can't back up anything he says because some roided out genetic freak told him differently.

    If you want to prove your lifts post your video because I'm calling bull****.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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    Quote Originally Posted by walker11 View Post
    Ricky, does that mean i shouldn't brag about any of my lifts either? what could you put up at 195? i only bench 355, squat 550, and deadlift 635, you probably got me beat by at least 30 lbs./lift when you were my weight. and seeing as how i'm only 195 at 6'3, does that means i don't know what im talking about either since im not huge?
    im not being an ass, i'm just having trouble following your logic with linking size to knowledge.
    When people don't know enough about what they're talking about to back it up they start pretending they're stronger than everyone on the forum and talks down to peoples lifts. As if that is even relevant to the subject.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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    My fav routine would be

    Monday
    Deadlift
    Stiff Leg DL or Bent Row
    Reverse Grip Pulldown or Wide Grip
    Bicep Curl
    Some type of ab work

    Tuesday
    Overhead Press
    Upright Row
    Front DB Raise or lateral
    DB Skullcrusher
    V-bar pulldown
    Dips

    Wed-off
    Thurs
    Squats
    Leg Press
    Lunges
    Calf press
    Seated Calf raise

    Fri-
    Bench BB
    Decline BB
    Incline DB
    Flyes or Pec Dec
    Ab Work
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    When people don't know enough about what they're talking about to back it up they start pretending they're stronger than everyone on the forum and talks down to peoples lifts. As if that is even relevant to the subject.
    im surprized your 5 11' because your acting like someone with napoleon complex.

    i would much rather take advice from a farmer whos farmed his whole life than someone who reads about farming and sucks at it.

    have fun being angry silly boy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky5145 View Post
    im surprized your 5 11' because your acting like someone with napoleon complex.

    i would much rather take advice from a farmer whos farmed his whole life than someone who reads about farming and sucks at it.

    have fun being angry silly boy
    Your logic is just as stupid at your message. You're probably some fat 15 year old that reads bodybuilder magazines. You've already shown you know nothing about training by your uneducated and ignorant comments.

    Have fun isolating all your muscles with your pink dumbells. And I'll gladly go video for video if you want to provide us with your more than 545 lb deadlift.

    The only people that train the way you recommend are the little high school turds like yourself who lifts with their ego and not their mind and body.

    Wait, no, you're not even a turd. You are less than that. You are the undigested corn that shows up in my **** after a 4th of July fest.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    Your logic is just as stupid at your message. You're probably some fat 15 year old that reads bodybuilder magazines. You've already shown you know nothing about training by your uneducated and ignorant comments.

    Have fun isolating all your muscles with your pink dumbells. And I'll gladly go video for video if you want to provide us with your more than 545 lb deadlift.

    The only people that train the way you recommend are the little high school turds like yourself who lifts with their ego and not their mind and body.

    Wait, no, you're not even a turd. You are less than that. You are the undigested corn that shows up in my **** after a 4th of July fest.

    take a moment to look at yourself, your acting like a fool over the internet. if i were a 15 year old boy, what does it say about you that i could upset you so much?

    you need to delete your account. your a blabbering idiot who cant control his temper. get a life
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    FIGHT FIGHT !! LOL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky5145 View Post
    take a moment to look at yourself, your acting like a fool over the internet. if i were a 15 year old boy, what does it say about you that i could upset you so much?

    you need to delete your account. your a blabbering idiot who cant control his temper. get a life
    I corrected you and you got angry about it. Your comments were as stupid as your insults. I will not delete my account. If you don't like being told you're wrong go cry on Oprah and tell her you need some thick skin.

    I'm over and out.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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    Wow! I'm definitely caught up on my soap opera today here on AM!

    Kingkong, you need to chill bro. This is stupid. As soon as Ricky posted his suggestions, your immediate response was to tell him how stupid him and his training both are and how ignorant he is about training in general. Great response. You handled yourself like an adult for sure. I don't train like Ricky does personally. I train based on a Westside template and it has worked great for me. Does that mean Ricky is stupid and that his training doesn't work? No. He's managed to grow and get a lot bigger than I ever did training as a BB, so obviously it works for him. You can't say something is stupid and doesn't work when it has clearly yielded great results for someone. Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean it's wrong. I don't agree with how Ricky trains based on what I know works best for me PERSONALLY. But it works for him, so power to him. Who are any of us to tell him he's doing it the wrong way.

    We're all here to LEARN from each other and HELP each other. There aren't any of us that have it all figured out, whether powerlifter or bodybuilder, so there's no need for any of us to talk down to someone else for offering advice to someone based on what has worked for them.

    And be careful about throwing your lifts around like that makes you the man...there's always someone out there bigger and stronger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhyde View Post
    Wow! I'm definitely caught up on my soap opera today here on AM!

    Kingkong, you need to chill bro. This is stupid. As soon as Ricky posted his suggestions, your immediate response was to tell him how stupid him and his training both are and how ignorant he is about training in general. Great response. You handled yourself like an adult for sure. I don't train like Ricky does personally. I train based on a Westside template and it has worked great for me. Does that mean Ricky is stupid and that his training doesn't work? No. He's managed to grow and get a lot bigger than I ever did training as a BB, so obviously it works for him. You can't say something is stupid and doesn't work when it has clearly yielded great results for someone. Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean it's wrong. I don't agree with how Ricky trains based on what I know works best for me PERSONALLY. But it works for him, so power to him. Who are any of us to tell him he's doing it the wrong way.

    We're all here to LEARN from each other and HELP each other. There aren't any of us that have it all figured out, whether powerlifter or bodybuilder, so there's no need for any of us to talk down to someone else for offering advice to someone based on what has worked for them.

    And be careful about throwing your lifts around like that makes you the man...there's always someone out there bigger and stronger.
    I never claimed his stuff wouldn't work. I said it wasn't optimal. His ignorant claim was that full body routines didn't work. Did you read the thread? I corrected him because CLEARLY they do and a natural lifter shouldn't train like an advanced bodybuilder. Those isolations are going to do nothing, but lead to serious imbalance and uncoordinated muscles. Then he asked me to delete my account because it hurt his feelings being told what he said was wrong. Anyone with a brain stem would know the more exercises in a program the less the progression will be on each of those exercises.

    And who cares what someone looks like. I don't need to know what someone looks like to know if what they say does or doesn't make sense. Maybe that's a lot of peoples problem.

    And "what works for you" is stupid. If you progress on your lifts and eat over maintenance you will grow. I have yet to see someone gradually increasing their calories and weights and not grow. It is far more simple then people make it out to be. God didn't design every human on earth so that would have to work with different methods. Most methods do work, but some do not have the overall benefits as others. Stuff like DC and HST that have low volume and high frequency will work for anyone that is eating right and lifting heavy enough.

    Isn't it ironic that most people that are big are also very strong? Simple mathematics tells us getting strong is what we should aim for. And your body grows better from recuperating from one exercise with low volume rather than ten other useless exercises that are intended to hit non-existent muscles.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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    Yes, I did read the thread...in your response to his first post you told him something was stupid twice and that his routine sucked. All because he said he wouldn't advocate a full body routine for size. He's a bodybuilder, you're a powerlifter. There's going to be disagreements on the best and most efficient way to do things. Stop making everything so freakin' personal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    I never claimed his stuff wouldn't work. I said it wasn't optimal. His ignorant claim was that full body routines didn't work. Did you read the thread? I corrected him because CLEARLY they do and a natural lifter shouldn't train like an advanced bodybuilder. Those isolations are going to do nothing, but lead to serious imbalance and uncoordinated muscles. Then he asked me to delete my account because it hurt his feelings being told what he said was wrong. Anyone with a brain stem would know the more exercises in a program the less the progression will be on each of those exercises.

    And who cares what someone looks like. I don't need to know what someone looks like to know if what they say does or doesn't make sense. Maybe that's a lot of peoples problem.

    And "what works for you" is stupid. If you progress on your lifts and eat over maintenance you will grow. I have yet to see someone gradually increasing their calories and weights and not grow. It is far more simple then people make it out to be. God didn't design every human on earth so that would have to work with different methods. Most methods do work, but some do not have the overall benefits as others. Stuff like DC and HST that have low volume and high frequency will work for anyone that is eating right and lifting heavy enough.

    Isn't it ironic that most people that are big are also very strong? Simple mathematics tells us getting strong is what we should aim for. And your body grows better from recuperating from one exercise with low volume rather than ten other useless exercises that are intended to hit non-existent muscles.
    my ignorant claim? i said i personally would not advocate a full body routine for mass. where the hell did i say they didnt work at all. i didnt, i said what worked for me, and it has worked for many others. it doesnt mean its the end all be all but GRiggs wanted some advice so thats what where here to do, give him advice that HE can choose from. he doesnt have to do what you tell him, but what he feels would work for him, give him variety to choose from. not everyone trains the same way.

    i didnt tell you to delet your account because "you hurt me feelings" which if you read the posts you would know it was i who hurt your feelings, hense you getting all upset and acting like a child. i told you to delete you account becuase if you get this angry over the internet and you dont know how to act like an adult, you shouldnt be on here in the first place. this is a place to help each other out, not act like a complete moron when someone says something you dont agree with.

    you need to chill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhyde View Post
    Yes, I did read the thread...in your response to his first post you told him something was stupid twice and that his routine sucked. All because he said he wouldn't advocate a full body routine for size. He's a bodybuilder, you're a powerlifter. There's going to be disagreements on the best and most efficient way to do things. Stop making everything so freakin' personal.
    Nobody is making things freaking personal. Anyone that says a full body routine is not good for size is clearly ignorant. As long as the calories and overload is being met you'll grow. The different is the volume is spread out so progression can be made faster rather than in one session.

    Since when does powerlifter vs. bodybuilder that mean anything? Take a look at Dave Tate. He is a powerlifter, same with Marius.





    The difference between a powerlifter and a bodybuilder for physique is a cutting phase.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky5145 View Post
    my ignorant claim? i said i personally would not advocate a full body routine for mass. where the hell did i say they didnt work at all. i didnt, i said what worked for me, and it has worked for many others. it doesnt mean its the end all be all but GRiggs wanted some advice so thats what where here to do, give him advice that HE can choose from. he doesnt have to do what you tell him, but what he feels would work for him, give him variety to choose from. not everyone trains the same way.

    i didnt tell you to delet your account because "you hurt me feelings" which if you read the posts you would know it was i who hurt your feelings, hense you getting all upset and acting like a child. i told you to delete you account becuase if you get this angry over the internet and you dont know how to act like an adult, you shouldnt be on here in the first place. this is a place to help each other out, not act like a complete moron when someone says something you dont agree with.

    you need to chill
    No that is not what you said. Now you're trying to backtrack. This is what you said.

    when i comes to size i would never advocate a full body routine.
    That is just plain ignorant. Anyone who says otherwise needs to do some more research. Go over to strengthmill and tell Mr. Rippetoe he needs to switch to splits because all of those guys that have gained 50 lbs of mass on starting strength haven't really gained anything.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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    thats what i just said, i wouldnt advoacte a fullbody routine for mass. I, I, I, I. meaning me, as in I personally would not adovacate one. wow, you amaze me.

    as for your pics there just rediculous, marius is stronger than a bodybuilder but in a size comparison he is dawrfed.

    powerlifting and bodybuilding are TWO different things, get over yourself

    and im not backtracking, it was in our current discussion

    act like an adult before you post again.
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    annnd YOU STILL havent proven i said it wouldnt work at all. idiot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky5145 View Post
    annnd YOU STILL havent proven i said it wouldnt work at all. idiot
    Oh now you have the NERVE to call someone an "idiot" after attacking THEIR maturity? Please go find a post where I insulted you. I told you your post was ignorant and it was stupid for you to say someone won't gain mass on a full body routine.

    My point with those pictures is you can be big and strong or just big and pretty in your thong on a stage with fake tans. The choice is yours. How long would it take for a powerlifter to become a bodybuilder? Ronnie Coleman did it, Dave Tate has done it, there are a few more I could name. Now, how long would it take for a bodybuilder to become a powerlifter? A long ass time because they would have to rearrange their already questionable techniques - like using smith machines and flaring their elbows out when they bench press.

    Why would you NOT want to get stronger while getting bigger? You get big and functionally strong on a full body routine; it is less optimal on a split.

    Furthermore, it is better to train with your volume spread out with a full body routine. Why? Your body recuperates faster this way and can be trained more frequently. Furthermore, the more exercises in a routine, the slower the progression will be on those exercises.

    Full body routines also put the body as a whole under more tension. This means that anabolic testosterone is released more in a full body routine, because it is under more tension as a whole. The testosterone is spread out into the whole body with a full body because you are working your whole body. In a split, the blood is only pumped hard into the muscle that you're working, so its less optimal hormonally.

    Another reason is because a calorie surplus and progressive overload is needed to gain LBM. You have more opportunity to progress by training movements 2-3 times per week in comparison to one. Furthermore, you can incorporate dynamic and repetition work mixed with max effort in a full body routine and you squat each workout, which means you have the most optimal anabolic testosterone release.

    With a split routine with loads of isolations you have a higher potential for imbalance - particularly rotator cuff injuries because anytime the humerus is in an abducted and externally rotated position - like transverse flexion (AKA flys) it is hard on the shoulders. Back movements balance chest movements and the back is harder to target more specifically movement for movement because there are so many muscle groups that need to be hit optimally. And bodybuilders have more rotator cuff injuries than any other sport. Did you know that?

    Now, if you can muster up a civil reply maybe we can actually discussed this so you won't be offended and people can actually benefit from the discussion. I am sorry if I offended you.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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    Read this. It tells you why full body is better:

    I have come to the following conclusion, after considerable research and study of much of the available material regarding the training methods and results of the so-called ‘old timers’, as well as current training methods and results: the ‘split’ routine has been the death of productive strength training and muscle building. Allow me to explain the reasoning behind this possibly shocking revelation…

    First, I shall clarify what I mean by ‘split’ routine. As most of us are probably aware, the conventional use of the phrase split routine comes from bodybuilding; it refers to structuring ones training routine around the individual body parts/muscle groups. One example: Working chest, shoulders, and triceps one day, back and biceps the next, and legs the third day. Another, even worse (and you‘ll understand why by the end of the article), example: Legs one day, back one day, chest one day, shoulders one day, and arms one day. As I said, these are conventional examples of split routines, the type of things you would invariably find in what have been referred to as the “muscle comics” -- because what you find inside these ‘comics’ is so far-fetched and ridiculous, it has absolutely no resemblance to reality!

    Another, more practical, type of split routine, would be to split the lifts -- take a handful of the big, compound, multi-joint exercises and work two or three each time you train. As you will soon see, this type of split can be very effective. For example: squats, pull-ups, and overhead presses one day, deadlifts and bench press another day, and maybe snatches and cleans-and-jerks on another day. It should be obvious, I hope, that the type of split routine that I have a problem with is the former, body part type.

    It might not be the end of the world if the use of body part split routines were limited just to bodybuilding, but their insidious influence is found everywhere. Many amateur and professional athletes (in football, baseball, basketball, etc.), World’s Strongest Man competitors, powerlifters, and combative and tactical athletes of all types can be seen using the cursed split routine in their training. These are people who, in my opinion, should know better -- and whose athletic needs require a totally different approach to strength training and conditioning.

    When the ‘average’ guy took up weight training in the early days of the 20th Century, he was almost assured of making good gains from his training. He could count on adding considerable size and strength to his body, while also vastly improving his health. Today’s average trainee is not afforded that same luxury/opportunity -- and much of the blame should fall at the feet of the muscle magazines, for it is the muscle mags that promulgate the absurd split routines to the unknowing masses of eager, yet gullible, young men. In defense of these magazines, though, it may not be entirely their fault. You see, it all started back in the early 1920s …

    A Little History for Yourself

    When Milo Steinborn came here from Germany, he brought with him the heavy, flat-footed squat. Prior to this, most lifters in this country were doing their squats with fairly light weights, up on their toes. This produced a certain degree of muscularity in the thighs (though not necessarily a lot), but didn’t contribute much in the way of startling total-body size and strength. With Steinborn’s version of the squat, that all changed -- and a revolution was founded! The heavy, flat-footed, high-rep squat would eventually become the cornerstone of most lifter’s routines, thanks in large part to the efforts of Joseph Curtis Hise and Peary Rader. Along with the squat, you would find many other heavy, multi-joint lifts being suggested by the top physical culturists of the time. This trend -- whole-body routines with an emphasis on heavy leg and back work -- would continue into the 1960s, but only barely.

    Perhaps some examples through the years are in order.

    Alan Calvert, from his ‘First Course in Body-Building and Muscle-Developing Exercises’, 1924, included the following drills in his program: Standing Curls, Bent-Over Rows, Standing Press Behind Neck, Stiff-Arm Pullovers, Weighted Situps, Overhead Press while seated on the floor, Straddle Lifts, Shrugs, Squats up on the toes, One-Arm Press/Side Press, One-Arm Swings, and a strange type of Supported, Bent-Over One-Arm Reverse Curl.

    Mark Hamilton Berry, from his ‘First Course in Physical Improvement and Muscle Developing Exercises’, circa ~1936: Standing Curl, Floor Press, Bent Rows, Standing Press Behind Neck, Two-Arm Pullovers, Squats, Shrugs, Straddle Lifts, Weighted Situp, One-Arm Press/Side Press, One-Arm KB Swing, Wrist Roller, Wrestler’s Bridge, Reverse Curl, Military Press.

    Harry Barton Paschall, ‘The Bosco System of Progressive Physical Training’, 1954: (Program 1: Bodybuilding) Upright Rows, Standing Press, Standing Curls, Bent Rows, Squats, Pullovers, Calf Raise, Stiff-Legged Deadlift/Shrug combination drill, Side Bends, DB Circles, Weighted Situps, and Leg Swings; (Program 2: Weight Gaining) Clean and Press, Standing Curls, Bent Rows, Bench Press, Squat, and Chest Lifts.

    John McCallum, from his Keys to Progress series, circa the mid-1960s: (An article titled ‘For Size and Strength’) Prone Hyper-Extensions, Squats and Pullovers, Front Squats, Bench Press, Power Cleans, Rowing, Press Behind Neck, Incline Curls.

    You will notice that none of these programs are split routines; more often than not, it was expected that the routine would be performed on three non-consecutive days per week. Please note, there is nary a fly nor lateral raise nor leg extension in the bunch. (Apparently, however, curls have always been included as a concession to man’s preoccupation with big biceps.) Another thing you may notice is that, over the years, the routines tended to get a little shorter -- programs of 10-15 or more drills were becoming routines of 6-8 exercises, as they minimized any redundancy and eliminated some of the drills that were not maximally productive. Thus, they found it possible to develop whole-body size and strength without having to train each individual muscle with its own exercise. All of these programs -- both the longer ones and, especially, the shorter ones -- resulted in considerable increases in size and strength for anyone who tried them.

    The same cannot be said for the drivel and BS that passes for training advice in this day and age. Show me an ‘average’, drug-free, genetically-typical trainee today who has made any real progress in his training; a modern lifter who continues to make progress steadily, even if somewhat slowly; a trainee who is not lifting the same amount of weight for the same number of reps week after week, year after year. I’ve seen it myself time and time again, first when I trained in a gym, then when I worked in one.

    In fact, I experienced it for myself. Allow me a brief digression to illustrate my point with some personal history. Years back, when I used to train in the gym with a training partner, we always used split routines -- typically chest/shoulders/triceps on Monday and Thursday, back/biceps Tuesday and Friday, and legs on Wednesday. My partner was a thick little mesomorph who made some progress on whatever program we were using; I, on the other hand, did not. It may also be worth noting that my partner made his progress while missing a good eight out of ten leg workouts, while I made virtually no progress while never missing a leg session. In each chest workout we would do the bench press, working up to a max each time (the idea that you need to max in each workout -- that’s a rant for another time), and I would always take a shot at the big ‘two wheels’, 225. Only on one or two occasions was I actually able to bench that 225 by myself, for a shaky, ugly rep -- and this was over the span of more than two years time. (While I constantly struggled with that 225, my partner went on to push 315, damned mesomorph …) Shortly after I quit the gym, I went on a ‘Hard Gainer’ type routine, training the whole body in each workout, and using only three or four lifts per session to do so. And after no more than about six months I was benching the sacred two wheels for reps -- three or four or five -- at home, by myself, with confidence, thank you very much.

    By now, you are probably wondering when I’m going to get to the point. Well, here it comes. The whole-body type programs that were used in the old days offered many benefits not afforded by the elaborate split routines of today, and these benefits may help explain why it is that old-time lifters could excel while we flounder in a sea of mediocrity. (It may also explain why our Olympic lifters have lost to the cursed Commies year after year -- since the 60s; it’s an opinion apparently shared by none other than the great Olympic lifter Tommy Kono, at least according to his excellent book, “Weightlifting, Olympic Style”.)

    Benefits of Whole-Body Routines vs. Split Routines

    First, the endocrine response. According to modern sports science, the more muscle mass one uses in a training session, the greater the endocrine response; in other words, the more hormones that your body will release in response to your training. The old-time programs trained all the muscle groups in each workout; that’s a lot of muscle mass. Consider the gush of hGH and testosterone that would be sent coursing through the body after a workout that included heavy squats, deadlifts, standing presses, bent-over and upright rows, bench presses, DB swings, snatches, etc. And consider the muscle-building and fat-burning effects of all this hGH and test free-flowing through your system. Now, try to imagine how very little the squirt of hormones would be after a shoulder workout of seated DB presses (at least standing you would be getting some leg work, however minimal), lateral raises to the front and sides, bent laterals, and maybe some cable laterals for a little extra striation-training. Or worse, a ‘heavy’ arm workout: preacher curls, incline DB curls, maybe 21s to get a good burn; then ‘skull crushers’, seated French presses, and some pushdowns for the outer head, man. Diddly in the way of muscle-building and fat-burning! The training effect upon the endocrine system may also explain why the trend in full-body routines went from as many as ten or more drills down to half that: The abbreviated routines allowed the lifter to finish the session within 45-60 minutes, which maximized hGH and testosterone while minimizing the catabolic hormone cortisol. The old-timers may not have fully understood why the shortened routines seemed so much more productive than the original two-plus-hour marathon workouts, but they knew what worked and they stuck with it!

    Second, bone and joint strength. Again, modern sports science tells us that the bones in the body are strengthened best when subjected to a heavy load. This is where the big, multi-joint lifts come in, lifts like squats, deadlifts, cleans-and-jerks, snatches, standing presses, etc. It is quite impossible to put the skeletal frame under significant resistance when using so-called isolation exercises; as far as I’m concerned, these type drills are little more than ‘poor-leverage’ drills. Lateral raises, flyes, cable cross-overs, leg extensions, etc, all put the weight at the end of a relatively long lever, making it more difficult to lift that weight -- even a very light weight. And at no point in any of the isolation exercises does any real resistance actually fall fully on the bone structure; the skeletal system does little, if any, real supporting of the weight. The same applies to the connective tissues: To fully strengthen the tendons and ligaments, it is necessary to subject them to tremendously heavy weights, often through a partial range-of-motion. Again, this is not something that is adequately accomplished with the isolation-type, poor-leverage drills. Clearly, split routines and the accompanying isolation drills are not the most efficient way to build strength in the bones and connective tissues.

    The talk of strength leads us to the next point: muscular strength. Maximum muscular strength is best developed via the lifting of very heavy weights. The heavier the weight, the greater the tension generated in a muscle, and the more tension generated by a muscle, the more force it can apply -- thus, it gets stronger! And while isolation drills -- aka, poor-leverage drills -- may generate what appears to be a lot of tension (even with very light weights), it is typically far less than would be required with whole-body exercises. The goal of strength training, after all, is -- or should be -- to lift the heaviest weight possible. Think of it this way: Would you have more confidence and more pride from doing a set of ten reps in the lateral raise with 25 pounds, or five reps in the clean-and-press with 205? Which drill do you really think would do more for your bodily size and strength? The answer, I hope, is obvious.

    Finally, we come to the issue of functionality. The isolation exercises that are the staple of most split routines are not functional in the least (beyond, perhaps, for training around an injury, or for rehab). When was the last time you needed to put something heavy on a shelf above your head and you chose to lift it at the end of your stiff, outstretched arm? Hopefully never. You would, I have to believe, do something that would resemble a continental clean and press -- deadlifting the load to waist height, struggling it up to the shoulders, and finally pressing it up overhead and sliding it onto the shelf. Whole-body routines using the big, multi-joint drills train the whole body as a unit -- as the name might imply. They teach your many muscle groups to work together in a unified, athletic fashion, and in the proper sequence: typically from the ground up, transferring force from the lower body, through the midsection, into the upper body, and out through the arms (more often than not, anyway). These drills also teach the muscles of the legs and core to stabilize the upper body against resistance, which is especially important not only in lifting but in many combative/contact sports.

    There’s a popular saying, something to the effect that “Form Follows Function”. How you train will determine how you look, that’s true enough; but it will also determine how you perform. Training for functionality will dramatically improve your performance, first and foremost, and your ‘form’ right along with it. Cosmetic-oriented training -- bodybuilding -- may improve how you look, but it will not, I submit, do much to improve your performance in any endeavor. Besides, what will be more valuable to you in your life: looking puffed-up and pretty, or having high levels of strength and work capacity? Train like an athlete, not a bodybuilder! To train any other way is to invite injury and weakness.


    Split Routines, Steroids, and ‘Isolationism’

    Split routines first began to rear their ugly little heads sometime in the late 50s or early 60s, around the time that steroid use was really becoming widespread in the bodybuilding and lifting communities. A coincidence? I think not! Heavy, often high-rep, leg and back work is absolutely essential for making size and strength gains drug-free, but let’s face it: heavy leg and back work, properly performed, is positively brutal. Thus, it may not be a complete surprise that when lifters found they could achieve significant increases in muscular size and strength without subjecting themselves to the brutally heavy lifting, they did so. (In their defense, though, it’s worth noting that they didn’t know of the dangerous side effects of the drugs at that time; also, they were taking much lower doses and much fewer varieties of the drugs than are the lifters and bodybuilders of today.)

    Of course, one rationale for the use of split routines is that it allows the lifter to train the individual muscle groups with greater focus and intensity, thus developing greater size and strength in those muscles. Well, I would submit that this logic only really applies to a lifter using exogenous pharmaceutical enhancement -- Dianabol, Winstrol, etc. A natural lifter with your so-called ‘average’ genetics is not going to receive much in the way of results from such a program since he will not be getting much in the way of an endocrine response. I wonder, in fact, if it’s not necessary for a ‘juicer’ to train every day in the isolation fashion because he or she needs to keep the drug-carrying blood “pumped into” the separate muscles to feed them the hormones and facilitate growth. I don’t know; it’s just a thought …

    Another argument for the use of split routines is that they will allow one to train more frequently because you are training different parts of the body each time. Well, to my thinking, this is only partly accurate. Yes, you may be training different muscles each time, but there is so much more to the body than just the muscular system. Let’s not forget the many other systems: nervous, endocrine, skeletal, etc. If one were to -- as many bodybuilders do -- train to the point of muscular failure several times in a workout -- and do that several times in a week -- even if you are training different muscle groups, you are still causing considerable systemic fatigue; “wiring up” the nervous system, for example, as well as draining the various energy systems, depleting the endocrine system, etc. With proper nutrition and recover strategies, it may be possible for the drug-free, average trainee to mitigate some of these factors -- but for a steroid-using lifter, it becomes a no-brainer; steroids are known to considerably accelerate the recovery process.
    Continued in next message.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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    One of the biggest problems that I have with split routines is that it results in an ‘isolation mentality’. Every effort is made, more often than not, to try to isolate each individual muscle. This practice, by definition, results in a loss of some of the very best drills one could do. The clean-and-press, for instance; should it be trained on back day or shoulder day. But wait, what if you do squat-snatches; is that a leg drill or a back drill; and doesn’t it also involve the shoulders to an extent? The bent press; where do you start with that? Deadlifts; back or legs? High pulls? One-arm dumbbell swings? Dumbbell cleans? Sots presses?

    Whole-body routines, if considered at all today, are thought to be appropriate only for beginners. After the first 3-6 months -- perhaps as much as a year -- you have to switch to a split routine if you want to continue to make progress -- or so we‘re led to believe. This is quite absurd. “Back in the day”, as the saying goes, most of the strongest and best-built lifters trained on whole-body routines for the duration of their careers, and made relatively steady progress the entire time -- even setting lifting records that have yet to be broken to this day!


    Laying Blame at the Feet of the ‘Muscle Comics’?

    Anyone who is familiar with Dinosaur Training will recall Brooks D. Kubik railing against today’s crop of trainees lifting their “pigmy weights” because they were afraid to train heavy. I believe that this is mostly inaccurate (and I’m aware that much -- but not all! -- of Brooks’ writing was done sort of tongue-in-cheek), because I was one of those young guys who couldn’t seem to get strong -- because I was following the programs in the muscle mags. Because I didn’t know any better; who knew that there was a so-much-more productive way to train for size and strength? Certainly not me and my friends, I can tell you. After all, how could we know? My friends and I slaved away with those “pigmy weights” workout after workout because we were misinformed.

    I never considered the possibility that there might be an alternative method out there, even though the split routines didn’t do diddly for me. Just enough people made just enough progress on split routines that I assumed the fault for my lack of gains lay within myself -- I must be doing something wrong. And of course I was -- just not what I had thought.

    It seems to me that people have always had an interest in the way the super-strong have trained, and the muscle mags have answered that call. In the old days, the big one was Alan Calvert’s ‘Strength’ magazine giving us the goods on Saxon and Sandow and Hackenschmidt, etc. The next big one was Peary Rader’s ‘Ironman’ with Hise, Peoples, Boone, Davis, Anderson, Hepburn, et al. Then came Bob Hoffman’s ‘Strength and Health’ and Park, Grimek, and the champion Olympic lifters of the era: Kono, Schemansky, the George Brothers, and on and on. These physical culture periodicals published the training routines of all the stars, and the information was invaluable to the average lifter because the training methods were based on what worked. Gradually, as the use of steroids became more pronounced, the routines that the champs were using began to change -- and the magazines published those programs. And, as you might expect, the average reader started to emulate these new ’split’ routines, and didn’t get the results that the champs were getting. The problem was that the champs didn’t make it known to the magazines that they were ‘pharmaceutically-assisted’. Thus, the editors of the time were likely as duped as the poor reader. And if the editors did in fact know, it seems that they weren’t telling.

    Today, of course, they’re still not talking. Even though it’s a big open secret in the muscle mag industry that most -- okay, probably all -- of the physiques you see pictured in the ‘comics’ were ultimately built with steroids. And the mags are still publishing those split routines, and not mentioning the prerequisite need for boatloads of drugs to make those programs work. And for that, I most certainly do blame Joe Weider and Bob Kennedy and all their ilk. They are selling unattainable dreams to kids and wide-eyed young men; they are selling these poor bastards supplements that won’t work, and cheating them of something that could otherwise have been a very fulfilling and worthwhile pursuit, and they are leading them to failure and disappointment -- and they know it! I personally wasted precious years of my life -- perhaps what might have been my most productive training years, with a system pumped full of raging teenage hormones -- on those ineffectual and pernicious routines. To think how much bigger and stronger I might have been today is almost enough to move me to tears. Would that I knew then … Oh yes, I am still holding this grudge after all these years!


    Reliable References

    There are precious few periodicals and books out there that are telling you the truth about physical training; you would do well to go out of your way to find them. IronMind’s MILO magazine tops the list, of course. And a couple of now-defunct magazines you should make an effort to get back issues of: Dinosaur Files and HardGainer. (These are just the few that I have personal experience with; there may well be others of which I’m unaware.) To me, it seems very much a shame that some of the most honest and useful magazines are not more well-known, and many typically fold after a relatively short time, while the newsstand ‘glossies’ continue to churn out the same nonsense, month after month!

    In terms of books, most of the stuff by Stuart McRoberts is excellent, if a bit conservative. Look for ‘Brawn’ especially (the book that finally got me gaining in size and strength), as well as ‘Beyond Brawn’; his ‘Insider’s Tell-All Handbook on Weight-Training Technique’ is invaluable for learning proper lifting technique. Brooks D. Kubik’s ‘Dinosaur Training’ is outstanding, and a personal favorite; it compelled me to completely re-evaluate my approach to training. Without question, get Pavel’s ‘Power to the People!’ for a ‘simplex’ approach to building strength -- with or without size. Bill Starr’s ‘Strongest Shall Survive’ is also quite good, and has aged very well, thank you; as I’ve been saying -- the methods that work don’t change much. Check out William F. Hinbern’s website www.SuperStrengthBooks.com for a wide assortment of very valuable reading materials: books by and about Saxon, Hackenschmidt, Goerner, Paschall, Berry, Calvert, et al. Almost any of these books would be eminently valuable to you; a wealth of productive training wisdom.


    If You Insist on ‘Splitting’…

    In my humble opinion, there is really only one type split routine that might be worth discussing -- beyond the lift-splitting example offered in the opening paragraph of this treatise, of course. If you insist on using a split routine, I implore you to consider the upper body/lower body split. This type split was favored by none other than the gargantuan powerhouse Paul Anderson.

    One of the very first ‘body part’ split routines, the upper/lower split offers some significant benefits that aren’t found with most of today’s popular splits. First is a much more equal division of the body’s musculature. With the upper/lower split, you are able to emphasize the back and the shoulder girdle in one session, and the hips and legs in the other. The core/midsection could conceivably be trained in each session. In both of these workouts you are training a considerable portion of the body’s muscle mass with heavy weights.

    Which leads us to perhaps the most notable and beneficial perk: the potential to use some of the really BIG lifts: the clean-and-press/jerk, the snatch, the one-arm swing all fit nicely into the upper body workout (not necessarily all in one session, of course); the various squats and deadlifts are the obvious choices for the lower body day. Using these big lifts will offer many of the advantages of whole-body routines -- if you use the big lifts. An upper/lower split is fairly worthless if you just fill the program with wimpy little isolation exercises. Naturally, there may occasionally be some overlap of the muscle groups being trained in each session, but this is okay because you probably won’t be training every day (although with proper variation of the intensity and volume, you certainly could; I just wouldn’t recommend it). Typically, if you are training for some size along with your strength, and/or if you are involved in other physical activities, you will do best lifting only two to four days per week. Also, by using the big, multi-joint drills, you are able to get more work done in less time; in other words, you can train all of the involved major musculature with only a small handful of lifts. For example, one-arm dumbbell swings, cleans-and-presses, and the pullover-and-press for the upper body; squats and stiff-legged deadlifts for the lower. Or, even more streamlined for less wasted time and energy: snatches and one-arm standing presses for the upper body, bent-leg deadlifts for the lower.

    The above routines are just a couple of ideas for yourself, as a place to start. Alternatively, you could simply pick a few of the drills from each list below -- perhaps two or three for the upper body and one or two for the lower -- add an ab and/or oblique drill or two, and put together your own program. (These lists are far from comprehensive, of course.)

    Upper Body Drills (Back and Shoulder Girdle Emphasis)
    - Bent-Arm Pullovers
    - Pullover-and-Press
    - Snatch, one arm or two
    - Clean-and-Press, one arm or two
    - Clean-and-Jerk, one arm or two
    - Bench Press
    - Incline Press
    - One-Arm Swings
    - Weighted Pull-Ups/Chins
    - Bent-Over Rows, one arm or two
    - Weighted Dips

    Lower Body Drills (Hip and Leg Emphasis)
    - Back Squats
    - Front Squats
    - Straddle Squats
    - Deadlifts, one arm or two
    - Stiff-Legged/Romanian Deadlifts
    - One-Legged Deadlifts
    - Hack Squats, with a barbell, of course
    - Reverse Deadlifts
    - One-Legged Squats
    - Spider/Zercher Squats

    In Conclusion…

    If you are a young guy -- or even a not-so-young guy -- whose sole desire is to get bigger and stronger, drug-free, I beg of you: Do not fall for the popular hype that you’ll find in nearly every one of the muscle and fitness magazines and Internet websites today! Reference the materials cited above (MILO, Brawn, Dinosaur Training, PTP, etc.). With any or all of these books and magazines to guide you, you can’t go far wrong with your training. Please, don’t waste your time trying to prove that you are an exception, that your genetics are ‘good’ -- chances are they’re not. Do yourself a BIG favor and stick with what works, what’s been working for over 100 years -- hard and heavy training on full-body routines using the big lifts. The results may amaze you!
    Is this enough proof for you? Or would you like more proof?
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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    "That is just stupid"

    "Training to failure is stupid"

    "You obviously know nothing about the CNS"

    "The routine absolutely sucks and is terribly balanced"

    "Have fun destroying your endocrine system and having slow and boring progress on those 100 useless exercises you named."

    "Actually educate yourself with this article on some of the stuff you preach rather than nag on things that are the opposite of the truth. "

    "How pathetic"

    "some punk kid "

    "Your logic is just as stupid at your message"

    "You're probably some fat 15 year old that reads bodybuilder magazines"

    "no, you're not even a turd. You are less than that. You are the undigested corn that shows up in my **** after a 4th of July fest"


    ok, so you asked me to find A post where you insulted me....heres a bunch. i rest my case, you are an idiot.

    delete you account. you cannot act like an adult.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky5145 View Post
    "That is just stupid"

    "Training to failure is stupid"

    "You obviously know nothing about the CNS"

    "The routine absolutely sucks and is terribly balanced"

    "Have fun destroying your endocrine system and having slow and boring progress on those 100 useless exercises you named."

    "Actually educate yourself with this article on some of the stuff you preach rather than nag on things that are the opposite of the truth. "

    "How pathetic"

    "some punk kid "

    "Your logic is just as stupid at your message"

    "You're probably some fat 15 year old that reads bodybuilder magazines"

    "no, you're not even a turd. You are less than that. You are the undigested corn that shows up in my **** after a 4th of July fest"


    ok, so you asked me to find A post where you insulted me....heres a bunch. i rest my case, you are an idiot.

    delete you account. you cannot act like an adult.
    I see you had nothing to say in reply to my three messages backing up why you were wrong, so OK, I think my point that you don't know how to backup what you say has been proven.

    And you've did a number of name calling throughout this whole thread.

    And you cannot delete your account on a forum. And just because you can't backup your arguments doesn't make anyone an *******.

    And you asked me to elaborate on my opinion and I did in a civil reply. Either reply to what I said about training or we can end the discussion.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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    if your trying to convince me why full body trainning is better then you have failed miserably. you keep posting words and things youve copied or read.

    In the real world, aka the gym outside of a book, i have gained more, lifted more and am bigger than you by using a split, one you called stupid, so you have failed.

    i would rather take advice from a farmer than someone who reads about farming but sucks at it.

    that means, i would rather take advice from someone who lives the life and has respectable gains than take advice from someone who posts copied clips of things expecting that to be the word of GOD but in reality has crapy lifts and is weak for there age escpecially if you are a powerlifter
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    Nobody is making things freaking personal. Anyone that says a full body routine is not good for size is clearly ignorant. As long as the calories and overload is being met you'll grow. The different is the volume is spread out so progression can be made faster rather than in one session.

    Since when does powerlifter vs. bodybuilder that mean anything? Take a look at Dave Tate. He is a powerlifter, same with Marius.





    The difference between a powerlifter and a bodybuilder for physique is a cutting phase.
    EDIT: repeated what someone already stated

    edit2: but Tate got to looking that way because he switched to a BB routine a while ago, he didnt look like that when he was PLing.
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    i never asked you to elaborate num nuts. i dont agree with you, your not convincing me me jack, so why would i want to have a discussion with someone who is stuck in their ways?

    and further more, i am not talking routines with you simply becuase there is no talking with you, you just keep acting childish.

    your lifts suck, you are small and weak for your age in the world of lifting. STOP TRYING TO GIVE ADVICE. it is nothing short of annoying

    in all seriousness, you arent really proud of those lifts are you???? i sincerely hope not
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