The #1 Cortisol Blocker

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    So has anyone given endoamp a try?? Feed back??

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    giving it a try for my pct in a month or so... It's being logged under "watch me grow, or die trying"
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    Quote Originally Posted by gibbob2 View Post
    giving it a try for my pct in a month or so... It's being logged under "watch me grow, or die trying"
    sounds good bro
    •   
       

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    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    ........
    :-)

    -Pp
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    bump
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    Cissus + high dosed Vitamin C is a great daytime cort blocker. Some cortisol is good and required for optimum health. You don't want to block all, or even too much for that matter.
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    So this product is supposed to be superior to the Lean-X/Activate stack I am currently using? Replace the LX with this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by StanChampion View Post
    So this product is supposed to be superior to the Lean-X/Activate stack I am currently using? Replace the LX with this?


    Yes, especially for PCT when supporting natural testosterone production is most important.

    -Pp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Yes, especially for PCT when supporting natural testosterone production is most important.

    -Pp
    hmm I will keep my eye on this. I am not in PCT right now. I am just doing a Activate/LeanX stack to help me get back into the gym after a year layoff due to work. I am 36 and needed a little extra kick I work out 6 days a week.

    I plan on doing another Superdrol run in a few months after my tendons and such are back up to speed. Might look into this for PCT.
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    i used a product with 100mg 7-keto dea, Lj100 80mg and 375mg horny goatweed and zinc and narigin. i went up to 5 capsules a day over 10 weeks. I found it great in my mood and the stress of changing jobs and study. My strengh went up by 15-20% but by the end i did have extremely achy joints especially shoulders. At the time i did not know why. But ready these post i see why. And looking back i guess i did crash/ rebound. How do you stop rebound. Would it have been better to slowly lower dosages?
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    hey man, I love the product, but there is no way in hell it yeilds 30 servings... Most likely only 24, no biggie but still
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    Quote Originally Posted by wood23 View Post
    i used a product with 100mg 7-keto dea, Lj100 80mg and 375mg horny goatweed and zinc and narigin. i went up to 5 capsules a day over 10 weeks. I found it great in my mood and the stress of changing jobs and study. My strengh went up by 15-20% but by the end i did have extremely achy joints especially shoulders. At the time i did not know why. But ready these post i see why. And looking back i guess i did crash/ rebound. How do you stop rebound. Would it have been better to slowly lower dosages?
    The 7keto is going to have that effect on your hormone levels either way... tapering would'nt really help anything. In fact, cold turkey is allways the best way to drop sex hormones.

    gibbon,

    We changed containers and dosing spoons recently to make sure guys are getting a more accurate dose. Did you get one of the original cans?

    -Pp
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    I have no idea weather it was the new or old container, This is the first time I bought it.

    THe kit I got was the test booster, with endo, toco, and sustain.

    Glad to hear the problem has been fixed. casue I got a little worried around day 20 thinking I hardly had any left.
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    might have to add this for pct
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    Good call
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    [QUOTE=Primordial Perf;1385348]The 7keto is going to have that effect on your hormone levels either way... tapering would'nt really help anything. In fact, cold turkey is allways the best way to drop sex hormones.

    What do you mean cold turkey is the best way to drop sex hormones? I did notice my sex drive took a massive dive after i stopped. It is about 2months on and it is now just getting back.
    Cheers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanChampion View Post
    So this product is supposed to be superior to the Lean-X/Activate stack I am currently using? Replace the LX with this?

    No. There is NO science to show that transdermal ps would be better then LX. Youve got the best combo, dont change anything. The studies used by Primordial to push ps are not comparable to ORAL 7OH and 5AT use.

    Transdermal 7oxo is NOT the same as oral 7OH or 5AT.

    5AT works through a completely seperate pathway (cytokine) and is not anabolic/ androgenic or supressive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    No. There is NO science to show that transdermal ps would be better then LX. Youve got the best combo, dont change anything. The studies used by Primordial to push ps are not comparable to ORAL 7OH and 5AT use.

    Transdermal 7oxo is NOT the same as oral 7OH or 5AT.

    5AT works through a completely seperate pathway (cytokine) and is not anabolic/ androgenic or supressive.
    DS,

    Our PS is not transdermal. Its oral, and its effectiveness at lowering cortisol (and raising testosterone) has been proven in over a dozen in-vivo human studies. (more than any ingredient in LX)

    And lets be honest with the members here...

    There is no research showing 7OH or 5AT (DHEA metabolite's) do not negativly influence the HPTA. In fact, any research with these hormones (that examines testosterone) shows a lower testosterone level.

    Wood,

    Tapering doesnt help the HPTA regain natural production, it only prolongs it. Just straight dropping the exogenous hormones is the best choice.

    -Pp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    DS,

    Our PS is not transdermal. Its oral, and its effectiveness at lowering cortisol (and raising testosterone) has been proven in over a dozen in-vivo human studies. (more than any ingredient in LX)

    And lets be honest with the members here...

    There is no research showing 7OH or 5AT (DHEA metabolite's) do not negativly influence the HPTA. In fact, any research with these hormones (that examines testosterone) shows a lower testosterone level.

    -Pp
    Great, lets be honest.

    I have never said that PS is not a good compound, but its not better then LX.

    Please post the studies showing an increase in FREE test (the usable form) by PS, in-vivo.

    Please post the studies showing that oral use of 7OH and 5AT are suppressive to testosterone. NOT 7OXO.

    Please post a study that shows PS use increases lean muscle, in-vitro or in-vivo.

    Here is the in-vivo study that shows Forskolin increases lean muscle:
    Obes Res. 2005 Aug;13(8):1335-43.Links
    Body composition and hormonal adaptations associated with forskolin consumption in overweight and obese men.Godard MP, Johnson BA, Richmond SR.

    PS is a good compound, sell it on its own merits instead of trying to bash other formulas which have more research, with better results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    DS,

    Our PS is not transdermal. Its oral, and its effectiveness at lowering cortisol (and raising testosterone) has been proven in over a dozen in-vivo human studies. (more than any ingredient in LX)

    Please also post studies that show PS derived from soy (your product) as having the same effects as PS derived from bovine brain.

    It is my understanding that Bovine derived and Soy derived PS are not the same things, nor do they have the same effects, unfortunately Bovine PS is not available.
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    I'd like to see these studies as well
    Follow me on facebook, twitter and youtube, where I share information and videos to help you achieve your physique goals, John Smeton Ftness
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    Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    Great, lets be honest.

    I have never said that PS is not a good compound, but its not better then LX.

    Please post the studies showing an increase in FREE test (the usable form) by PS, in-vivo.

    Please post the studies showing that oral use of 7OH and 5AT are suppressive to testosterone. NOT 7OXO.

    Please post a study that shows PS use increases lean muscle, in-vitro or in-vivo.

    Here is the in-vivo study that shows Forskolin increases lean muscle:
    Obes Res. 2005 Aug;13(8):1335-43.Links
    Body composition and hormonal adaptations associated with forskolin consumption in overweight and obese men.Godard MP, Johnson BA, Richmond SR.

    PS is a good compound, sell it on its own merits instead of trying to bash other formulas which have more research, with better results.
    DS,

    Let’s stay on the topic here…

    I said DHEA metabolites lower testosterone production and I provided proof of this. DHEA metabolites are in your product, so the burden of proof is on you my friend. Do you have any research to suggest that DHEA metabolites do not lower total testosterone? (free testosterone has nothing to do with testosterone production)

    BTW, I never bashed anything or mentioned any products; I only posted research about DHEA metabolites, and why PS is superior.

    -Pp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Please also post studies that show PS derived from soy (your product) as having the same effects as PS derived from bovine brain.

    It is my understanding that Bovine derived and Soy derived PS are not the same things, nor do they have the same effects, unfortunately Bovine PS is not available.
    Grant,

    You are right, soy derived PS is slightly chemically different than bovine derided PS, but soy derived PS has been proven to provide all the same benefit. In fact, virtually all studies done in the last 8 years have been with soy derived PS because of the BSE scare. If you’re interested in reading more about this, this is a good review –

    Phospholipids and sports performance.
    R Jager, et al.
    J Int Soc Sports Nutr, Jan 2007; 4: 5


    -Pp
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    Quote Originally Posted by smeton_yea View Post
    I'd like to see these studies as well
    You can find all the references here on EndoAmp (PS) here -

    Here are a couple specific studies that review PS and the testosterone:cortisol ratio -

    HORMONAL EFFECTS OF PHOSPHATIDYLSERINE DURING 2-WKS OF INTENSE WEIGHT TRAINING
    [Annual Meeting Abstracts]
    Fahey, T. D.; Pearl, M.
    California State University, Chico

    Blunting by chronic phosphatidylserine administration of the stress-induced activation of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in healthy men.
    Monteleone et al.
    Eur J Clin Pharmacol 1992, 42(4):385-388

    The hormonal and perceptive effects of phosphatidylserine administration during two weeks of weight training-induced over-training.
    Fayey TD, et al.
    Biol Sport 1998, 15(2): 135-144


    -Pp
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    burn!!! I was waiting for you to shut them down!
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    Quote Originally Posted by gibbob2 View Post
    burn!!! I was waiting for you to shut them down!

    Oh shut the f*** up.

    He didn't burn anyone, nor did we need to be "shut down". Anabolic Minds is not about "burning" and "shutting down" people, its about intelligent discussion, why don't you read around a little bit.

    I know I'll get negged for this, but give me a break, no reason to be an a**hole.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Grant,

    You are right, soy derived PS is slightly chemically different than bovine derided PS, but soy derived PS has been proven to provide all the same benefit. In fact, virtually all studies done in the last 8 years have been with soy derived PS because of the BSE scare. If you’re interested in reading more about this, this is a good review –

    Phospholipids and sports performance.
    R Jager, et al.
    J Int Soc Sports Nutr, Jan 2007; 4: 5


    -Pp

    Phospholipids and sports performance.
    Jäger R, Purpura M, Kingsley M.

    Increnovo LLC, 2138 E Lafayette Pl, Milwaukee, WI 53202, USA. ralf.jaeger@increnovo.com.

    ABSTRACT: Phospholipids are essential components of all biological membranes. Phosphatidylcholine (PC) and Phosphatidylserine (PS) are Phosphatidyl-phospholipids that are required for normal cellular structure and function. The participation in physical activity often challenges a variety of physiological systems; consequently, the ability to maintain normal cellular function during activity can determine sporting performance. The participation in prolonged intense exercise has been shown to reduce circulatory choline concentrations in some individuals. As choline is a pre-cursor to the neurotransmitter Acetylcholine, this finding has encouraged researchers to investigate the hypothesis that supplementation with PC (or choline salts) could enhance sporting performance. Although the available data that evaluates the effects of PC supplementation on performance are equivocal, acute oral supplementation with PC (~0.2 g PC per kg body mass) has been demonstrated to improve performance in a variety of sporting activities where exercise has depleted circulatory choline concentrations. Short term oral supplementation with soy-derived PS (S-PS) has been reported to attenuate circulating cortisol concentrations, improve perceived well-being, and reduce perceived muscle soreness after exercise. More recently, short term oral supplementation (750 mg per day of S-PS for 10 days) has been demonstrated to improve exercise capacity during high intensity cycling and tended to increase performance during intermittent running. Although more research is warranted to determine minimum dietary Phospholipid requirements for optimal sporting performance, these findings suggest that some participants might benefit from dietary interventions that increase the intakes of PC and PS.

    PMID: 17908342 [PubMed - in process]


    This study gave no numbers, and one of the dosages it cited was .2 grams of PC per kg of body mass, which is an incredibly high dosage.

    Do you have the full text?

    Since the above study cites running and cycling it's only fair to compare their findings to this one:



    Phosphatidylserine supplementation and recovery following downhill running.
    Kingsley MI, Kilduff LP, McEneny J, Dietzig RE, Benton D.

    University of Wales Swansea, Singleton Park, Swansea, United Kingdom. M.I.C.Kingsley@Swansea.ac.uk

    PURPOSE: This study investigated the effects of 750 mg of soybean-derived phosphatidylserine (S-PtdSer), administered daily for 7 d prior to a bout of eccentric exercise and for 2d following exercise, on delayed onset of muscle soreness and markers of muscle damage, inflammation, and oxidative stress that followed prolonged downhill running. METHODS: Following preliminary testing and a familiarization session, eight recreationally active males repeated an individualized downhill run at -16.5% for 51.0 +/- 1.5 min at 8.7 +/- 0.3 km x h(-1) on four occasions (trials 1-4). Trials 1 and 37 were presupplementation control trials. After trials 1 and 3 the subjects received, in a double-blind and crossover fashion, either S-PtdSer or a glucose polymer placebo. Trials 2 and 3 were separated by a 4-wk washout period. Venous blood, perceived soreness ratings, and feeling states were assessed prior to exercise, after exercise, and at 24 and 48 h after exercise during each trial. RESULTS: Downhill running led to elevations in perceived soreness (P < 0.05), creatine kinase activities (P < 0.001), myoglobin concentrations (P < 0.001), interleukin-6 (IL-6) concentrations (P < 0.001), and lipid hydroperoxide concentrations (P < 0.01). However, supplementation did not significantly attenuate these responses. CONCLUSION: These results suggest that supplementation with 750 mg x d(-1) S-PtdSer for 10 d does not afford additional protection against delayed onset of muscle soreness and markers of muscle damage, inflammation, and oxidative stress that follow prolonged downhill running.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    This study gave no numbers, and one of the dosages it cited was .2 grams of PC per kg of body mass, which is an incredibly high dosage.

    Do you have the full text?

    Since the above study cites running and cycling it's only fair to compare their findings to this one:
    The reference you made about dose was for Phosphatidylcholine (PC), not Phosphatidylserine (PS). 800mg is the maximum effective dose for PS, which is what we include in EndoAmp.

    BTW, I do have the full text. I can send you the full text if you PM with your email.

    As far as the second study, the male subjects may not have been stressed enough to notice an ergonomic improvement from PS, or perhaps the methodology was not precise enough to pick up on a significant difference. Either way, the majority of the research on PS shows a positive effect, I think you found 1 of the 2 studies that showed PS having no ergonomic benefit. (over a dozen studies show a positive effect)

    -Pp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    The reference you made about dose was for Phosphatidylcholine (PC), not Phosphatidylserine (PS). 800mg is the maximum effective dose for PS, which is what we include in EndoAmp.


    -Pp
    Whoops....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    ...You are right, soy derived PS is slightly chemically different than bovine derided PS, but soy derived PS has been proven to provide all the same benefit. In fact, virtually all studies done in the last 8 years have been with soy derived PS because of the BSE scare....
    Agree!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    DS,

    Let’s stay on the topic here…

    I said DHEA metabolites lower testosterone production and I provided proof of this. DHEA metabolites are in your product, so the burden of proof is on you my friend. Do you have any research to suggest that DHEA metabolites do not lower total testosterone? (free testosterone has nothing to do with testosterone production)

    BTW, I never bashed anything or mentioned any products; I only posted research about DHEA metabolites, and why PS is superior.

    -Pp
    No you didnt. You provided proof that TRANSDERMAL 7OXO will lower total test, nothing more. 7OXO is not the same compound as 7OH or 5AT. You are trying to apply the use of a study on trans 7OXO to cover oral use on non-7OXO compounds. Your logic is completely flawed and you have NO PROOF.

    There is no burden of proof for me because there isnt a SINGLE study to show that 7OH or 5AT are suppressive. The burden of proof is on you.

    Free testosterone has everything to do with it. You can have an extremely high total test number and it will do absolutely nothing for strength, body comp, recovery etc etc. Besides the fact that total testosterone flucuates all day long.

    You bashed my product when you posted this false statement:

    05-05-2008 11:26 PM
    Primordial Perf Quote:
    "Originally Posted by StanChampion
    So this product is supposed to be superior to the Lean-X/Activate stack I am currently using? Replace the LX with this?"
    "Yes, especially for PCT when supporting natural testosterone production is most important."

    You have no science to show that PS would be better over LX, ever, much less PCT.


    You ref. this study in your write up and it does not involve any other metabolite of DHEA other then 7OXO and it is delivered by transdermal application. The study provides no conclusion or even questions 7OH or 5AT. This study provides nothing to supprot your claims against 7OH or 5AT or even oral 7OXO for that matter.
    Effects of Transdermal Application of 7-oxo-DHEA on the Levels of Steroid Hormones, Gonadotropins and Lipids in Healthy Men.

    You also ref this study which only tests transdermal 7OXO. It doesnt suggest in anyway that oral use of 7OH or 5AT would be suppressive in anyway. Your original post is BULL**** and you have no evidence to suggest anything other then people should not use TRANSDERMAL 7OXO during PCT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    As far as the second study, the male subjects may not have been stressed enough to notice an ergonomic improvement from PS, or perhaps the methodology was not precise enough to pick up on a significant difference. Either way, the majority of the research on PS shows a positive effect, I think you found 1 of the 2 studies that showed PS having no ergonomic benefit. (over a dozen studies show a positive effect)

    -Pp
    Which is exactly what you did for the use of 7OXO. A bit hypocritical dont you think?
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    ....
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    Common guys, were here for good info lets keep it clean
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    PP,

    Question about effective dose: Is the effective dose 800 mg of 50% PS or is it twice that or 800 mg of pure PS?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    No you didnt. You provided proof that TRANSDERMAL 7OXO will lower total test, nothing more. 7OXO is not the same compound as 7OH or 5AT. You are trying to apply the use of a study on trans 7OXO to cover oral use on non-7OXO compounds. Your logic is completely flawed and you have NO PROOF.

    There is no burden of proof for me because there isnt a SINGLE study to show that 7OH or 5AT are suppressive. The burden of proof is on you.

    You ref. this study in your write up and it does not involve any other metabolite of DHEA other then 7OXO and it is delivered by transdermal application. The study provides no conclusion or even questions 7OH or 5AT. This study provides nothing to supprot your claims against 7OH or 5AT or even oral 7OXO for that matter.
    Effects of Transdermal Application of 7-oxo-DHEA on the Levels of Steroid Hormones, Gonadotropins and Lipids in Healthy Men.

    You also ref this study which only tests transdermal 7OXO. It doesnt suggest in anyway that oral use of 7OH or 5AT would be suppressive in anyway. Your original post is BULL**** and you have no evidence to suggest anything other then people should not use TRANSDERMAL 7OXO during PCT.
    DS,

    Perhaps you didn’t read the full text of the studies I posted. 7OH was the primary active metabolite from the transdermal 7-oxo DHEA administration. 7OH goes up and testosterone, LH and FSH goes down. My original hypothesis still remains – “7-oxo DHEA metabolites lower testosterone”

    Based on your above response, it appears you aren’t aware of the connection between 7OH, 5AT and 7-oxo. Let me drive it home for you.

    Here is a quote from your LX product write up about 7OH –

    “Neither of the two isomers of 7-OH can convert to androgens or estrogens but appear instead to convert between each other and another DHEA metabolite called 7-oxo-DHEA5”

    And another quote about 5AT –

    “5-AT, the first new ingredient in Lean Xtreme, is another interesting compound. Like 7-OH, it is a metabolite of DHEA.”

    Case in point, these 7-oxo derived hormones are generally synonymous in action.

    Just for fairness, here is a study on oral 7-oxo DHEA. Again, you see a drop in testosterone. (significant 8% drop)

    Safety and pharmacokinetic study with escalating doses of 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone in healthy male volunteers.
    Davidson M, Marwah A, Sawchuk RJ, Maki K, Marwah P, Weeks C, Lardy H.
    Chicago Center for Clinical Research, Ill, USA.


    If you have research showing that 7-oxo derived ingredients don’t lower testosterone, feel free to post it. Otherwise, you have no reason to call BS until you bring something to the table.

    Thanks.

    -Pp
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuberman View Post
    PP,

    Question about effective dose: Is the effective dose 800 mg of 50% PS or is it twice that or 800 mg of pure PS?
    The dose of EndoAmp has 1600mg of 50% PS powder. So it gives you the 800mg that you need.

    -Pp
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    Quote Originally Posted by vpower View Post
    So Designer Supps, i just checked out your website, and I wanted to know what 3 year did your product write ups. But seriously I found a link to support your arguments;

    Care to debunk any of DS writeups?



    Anyone but me remember when someone would have been banned for trolling like this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    DS,



    Just for fairness, here is a study on oral 7-oxo DHEA. Again, you see a drop in testosterone. (significant 8% drop)

    Safety and pharmacokinetic study with escalating doses of 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone in healthy male volunteers.
    Davidson M, Marwah A, Sawchuk RJ, Maki K, Marwah P, Weeks C, Lardy H.
    Chicago Center for Clinical Research, Ill, USA.




    -Pp

    LOL! Seriously? You sure you want to bring up that study?



    Despite an 8% decrease in total testosterone in
    the blood of 7-oxo-DHEA-treated subjects (p <
    0.01), both statistical methods disclosed that there
    was a significant (14.4%, p < 0.01) increase of free
    testosterone from day 0 (26.7 [1.3] pg/mL, mean [and
    standard deviation]) to day 56 (30.8 [1.9] pg/mL) in
    subjects treated with 3β-acetyl-7-oxo-DHEA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    LOL! Seriously? You sure you want to bring up that study?
    A temporary offset of Testosterone from SHBG is hardly something to brag about. A lot of supplements will do this.

    Besides, the topic here isn’t about increasing free testosterone. It’s about increasing production of testosterone (total T) and avoiding inhibition of the HPTA – something you can’t avoid with the DHEA metabolites.

    -Pp
  

  
 

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