[Patrick Arnold]

I hear this product name all the time. people are always asking me if they can stack ergopharm products with jungle warfare. so i had to look it up and figure out what it is, or what its primary active is at least

reading the label i noticed that it was very evasive, secretive. They obviously are not concerned about FDA labelling laws cuz they violated them left and right. I also think it is doing a disservice to consumers to make every ingredient a mystery. Yes i went this way briefly with AMP when it first came out, but last year changed it to a more descriptive label

anyway, the mystery compound here is

17-Alkyl-4-Delta-5a-Dehydro-Etiocholan-1,6-Dien-3-One)


this chemical name makes no sense. Alkyl refers to a hydrocarbon chain in gerneral. alkyl can mean anththing from methyl or ethyl to cyclopentyl to undecanyl to butyryl. But in my opinion it probably means methyl in this case, and they used alkyl just to be sneaky

the next confusing aspect of this name is "4-delta-5a". Either the person that put this in the name does not understand steroid chemistry or they did not care. Bottom line, 4-delta means a double bond at the 4,5-position. 5a means there is a hydrogen atom at the 5alpha position. You cannot have both a double bond at 4,5 and a hydrogen at 5alpha. you will exceed the valence of the 5 carbon.

then you have the dehydro abbreviation stuck in there at an awkward location in the name. i will just ignore that cuz its senseless

the name etiocholan is next. it simply means androstan. it is common in the industry to substitute androstan with etiocholan.

then you have 1,6-dien-3-one. Finally, some chemical nomenclature that actually makes sense. this means double bonds at 1 and 6 and a ketone at 3.

the very odd thing about this name is that there is no reference to 17-beta hydroxyl group. All androgenic based products - whether they are anabolics, aromatase inhibitors, or dhea like compounds - have oxygen atoms at 17. So i assume it was just left out of the name either by mistake or for some reason that god only knows.


so bottom line, i would guess it is 17alpha-methyl-1,4,6-androstatrien-17beta-ol-3-one.

so its a methylated version of ATD

so this is my message to ALRI

WHY NOT JUST PUT A NORMAL NAME IN THE INGREDIENT LIST. IF YOU NEED HELP WITH CHEMICAL NOMENCLATURE FOR YOU LABELS THEN JUST ASK ME. I WOULD RATHER TAKE THE TIME OUT TO HELP YOU THEN HAVE TO CRINGE AT THE MUTILATED RESULT

[Gixxer82]

so in reality, its really nothing all that special?

[bLacKjAck.]

Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

I hear this product name all the time. people are always asking me if they can stack ergopharm products with jungle warfare. so i had to look it up and figure out what it is, or what its primary active is at least

reading the label i noticed that it was very evasive, secretive. They obviously are not concerned about FDA labelling laws cuz they violated them left and right. I also think it is doing a disservice to consumers to make every ingredient a mystery. Yes i went this way briefly with AMP when it first came out, but last year changed it to a more descriptive label

anyway, the mystery compound here is

17-Alkyl-4-Delta-5a-Dehydro-Etiocholan-1,6-Dien-3-One)


this chemical name makes no sense. Alkyl refers to a hydrocarbon chain in gerneral. alkyl can mean anththing from methyl or ethyl to cyclopentyl to undecanyl to butyryl. But in my opinion it probably means methyl in this case, and they used alkyl just to be sneaky

the next confusing aspect of this name is "4-delta-5a". Either the person that put this in the name does not understand steroid chemistry or they did not care. Bottom line, 4-delta means a double bond at the 4,5-position. 5a means there is a hydrogen atom at the 5alpha position. You cannot have both a double bond at 4,5 and a hydrogen at 5alpha. you will exceed the valence of the 5 carbon.

then you have the dehydro abbreviation stuck in there at an awkward location in the name. i will just ignore that cuz its senseless

the name etiocholan is next. it simply means androstan. it is common in the industry to substitute androstan with etiocholan.

then you have 1,6-dien-3-one. Finally, some chemical nomenclature that actually makes sense. this means double bonds at 1 and 6 and a ketone at 3.

the very odd thing about this name is that there is no reference to 17-beta hydroxyl group. All androgenic based products - whether they are anabolics, aromatase inhibitors, or dhea like compounds - have oxygen atoms at 17. So i assume it was just left out of the name either by mistake or for some reason that god only knows.


so bottom line, i would guess it is 17alpha-methyl-1,4,6-androstatrien-17beta-ol-3-one.

so its a methylated version of ATD

so this is my message to ALRI

WHY NOT JUST PUT A NORMAL NAME IN THE INGREDIENT LIST. IF YOU NEED HELP WITH CHEMICAL NOMENCLATURE FOR YOU LABELS THEN JUST ASK ME. I WOULD RATHER TAKE THE TIME OUT TO HELP YOU THEN HAVE TO CRINGE AT THE MUTILATED RESULT

Hmmm, I can vouch for this product in that it works and works very well at that. Nice catch none the less though PA.

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally Posted by Gixxer82

so in reality, its really nothing all that special?

special is in the eye of the beholder i guess


if my deciphering of the name represents the first time that consumers actually realize what this product contains then that really makes you scratch your chin doesn't it


especially considering the fact that it is extremely popular

i have to ask, why has nobody ever demanded to know what the chemical was and what was the background that suggests it is effective?

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally Posted by bLacKjAck.

Hmmm, I can vouch for this product in that it works and works very well at that. Nice catch none the less though PA.

what does this product do for you

[jmh80]

Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

WHY NOT JUST PUT A NORMAL NAME IN THE INGREDIENT LIST. IF YOU NEED HELP WITH CHEMICAL NOMENCLATURE FOR YOU LABELS THEN JUST ASK ME. I WOULD RATHER TAKE THE TIME OUT TO HELP YOU THEN HAVE TO CRINGE AT THE MUTILATED RESULT

You sir, are a good scientist. I like this.

[B5150]

Hi Patrick,

I completely understand what you are getting at.

Would you not agree with me that the following verbage:
"very evasive, secretive"
"obviously are not concerned about FDA labelling laws"
"disservice to consumers"
"just to be sneaky"
"does not understand steroid chemistry or they did not care"
"cuz its senseless"

is more accusational and antagonizing rather than inquisitive or curious?

You go on to say:
"IF YOU NEED HELP WITH CHEMICAL NOMENCLATURE FOR YOU LABELS THEN JUST ASK ME."

Is it your desire to embrace or to allienate. You are a tremendous asset to the entire industry. Sometimes the approach is just so damned attacking and insinuating rather than inquisitive. I know it's your MO, but for goodness sake Patrick. Save our board the drama...again.

Lets give the folks who make the product some time to explain themselves before the whole damn peanut gallery jumps in with their two cents.

Please play nice. We really love having you here Patrick

[bLacKjAck.]

Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

what does this product do for you

*Increased myotrophic activity

*Favorable nutrient repartitioning

*HPTA modulation

*Estrogen management

*Significant Pro-Hypertrophic capacity

*Anti-Catabolic




No seriously, I will say when I used it I stacked it with Bad Ass Mass, so I probably can't decipher the difference in the two as far as feeling. But on the stack I gained a lean 5lb which I was very happy with. Felt a lot of aggressive-ness and strength which would be due in part to the estro-control abilities.

[jmh80]

B - those scientists aren't good with people.
You gotta give 'em a break - they don't get out of the lab all that often to deal with people, rather than just numbers.

I should know.

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally Posted by B5150

Hi Patrick,

I completely understand what you are getting at.

Would you not agree with me that the following verbage:
"very evasive, secretive"
"obviously are not concerned about FDA labelling laws"
"disservice to consumers"
"just to be sneaky"
"does not understand steroid chemistry or they did not care"
"cuz its senseless"

is more accusational and antagonizing rather than inquisitive or curious?

You go on to say:
"IF YOU NEED HELP WITH CHEMICAL NOMENCLATURE FOR YOU LABELS THEN JUST ASK ME."

Is it your desire to embrace or to allienate. You are a tremendous asset to the entire industry. Sometimes the approach is just so damned attacking and insinuating rather than inquisitive. I know it's your MO, but for goodness sake Patrick. Save our board the drama...again.

Lets give the folks who make the product some time to explain themselves before the whole damn peanut gallery jumps in with their two cents.

Please play nice. We really love having you here Patrick

i am not gonna lie. i am not simply inquisitive or curious. I know exactly what ALRI is doing with their labelling approach. Other companies do it to. And I hate it. Its unfair to me as a competitor. I just cannot pretend to be objective in my posts as i am not. So it comes out and you find it annoying. I understand that

I also have a pet peeve when my competitors completely f' up things chemically speaking. It makes me feel like i am a chemist competing with a bunch of others who are just "playing" chemist. How would a doctor feel competing against others that are just "playing" doctor.

----------------

Anyway, concerning methylated aromatase inhibitors. i have said this before, making a 17alpha-methyl derivative of an aromatase inhibitor makes no sense.

look at all the steroidal aromatse inhibitors on the market. They are all 17-keto compounds. This is for a reason. 17-keto steroids all have a higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme than 17beta-hydroxyl compounds (this is totally opposite than it is for the androgen receptor)

when you make a 17alpha-methyl, 17beta-hydroxyl (as ALRI is doing there) you prevent the formation of a 17-ketone derivative. You force the compound to stay a 17beta-hydroxyl. This makes no sense. you WANT the compound to be a 17-ketone and they are forcing it to stay as a much weaker 17beta-hydroxyl

It appears to me that ALRI is approaching aromatase inhbitors as if they were androgens. They apparently are not aware that what they did here was completely counterproductive

[B5150]

Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

i am not gonna lie. i am not simply inquisitive or curious. I know exactly what ALRI is doing with their labelling approach. Other companies do it to. And I hate it. Its unfair to me as a competitor. I just cannot pretend to be objective in my posts as i am not. So it comes out and you find it annoying. I understand that

Actually it is not annoying really. I just flinch a bit knowing what is to come from this. You and I are fine. I completely understand.

[r6samson]

THE Patrick Arnold? Holy cow, haha...you sir helped me on my way to college major and God-willing future career. Absolutely love your work and to be honest I'm kind of awe struck. Rather meet you then any other athlete in the world. Excellent organic chemist (correct?).


The fact with the ketone at the end though IIRC it's a carbon doubled bonded to an oxygen so would that suffice or it needs to be an aldehyde at the end of the chain? Forgive my horrible attempts to understand. I'm trying to learn.


EDIT: Disregard my 2nd paragraph. I think I see what you're saying now with the hydroxyl group at the end (aldehyde).

JP

[Erik2003]

Thanks for the post! I find these type of posts extremely valuable! However, as a non-chemist, I had a hard time following some of the details...

What resources can you suggest, eg textbooks, etc., that can help us, non chemists, utilize to better understand your post and what this all means? I have actually been very interested in trying to decipher the chemical nomenclatures of the various products, understand what they actually do, and be able to learn this on my own.

Any guidance is appreciated.

Thanks for the post.

[whitedevil74]

Thanks PA.

[Sir Savage]

Nice one, Pat. Did you post this at M & M, too? If not, the readers there need to see it, too.

[bLacKjAck.]

me= working on getting some ALRI folk in here to make this thing fun....

[jmh80]

For what it's worth - I like JW. It's a good supp.

[jmh80]

Originally Posted by Erik2003

Thanks for the post! I find these type of posts extremely valuable! However, as a non-chemist, I had a hard time following some of the details...

What resources can you suggest, eg textbooks, etc., that can help us, non chemists, utilize to better understand your post and what this all means? I have actually been very interested in trying to decipher the chemical nomenclatures of the various products, understand what they actually do, and be able to learn this on my own.

Any guidance is appreciated.

Thanks for the post.

Not sure if they make a chemistry for dummies - but that might be a cheap start.

I bet you could find some lectures at different colleges on line as to nomenclature in organic chemistry classes. It's one of the first things covered in Organic 1.

[Lanbane]

If everything PA says is accurate, which no one seems to challenge..... then I hope plenty of people see this and stop to do some thinking for a minute. By this I am not saying to question ALRI.... I am saying don't jump on the bandwagon and ingest the next hyped product just cause everyone else said so. This kind of sh%t scares me to death..... in this case, it was fairly innocent.... but someone is going to pull this with a dangerous compound sooner or later, and all the people who followed like sheep are going to be left paying the price.

If you can't research an ingredient ON YOUR OWN, you shouldn't even touch the darn product.

Thank you for what I hope will be an eye opener PA.

(Steps from soapbox.... trips, falls.....)

[rpen22]

Originally Posted by Lanbane

If everything PA says is accurate, which no one seems to challenge..... then I hope plenty of people see this and stop to do some thinking for a minute. By this I am not saying to question ALRI.... I am saying don't jump on the bandwagon and ingest the next hyped product just cause everyone else said so. This kind of sh%t scares me to death..... in this case, it was fairly innocent.... but someone is going to pull this with a dangerous compound sooner or later, and all the people who followed like sheep are going to be left paying the price.

If you can't research an ingredient ON YOUR OWN, you shouldn't even touch the darn product.

Thank you for what I hope will be an eye opener PA.

(Steps from soapbox.... trips, falls.....)

And thanks for the chem lesson, Patrick! I enjoy reading about and trying to understand this type of thing, so it's much appreciated.

[r6samson]

Originally Posted by jmh80

Not sure if they make a chemistry for dummies - but that might be a cheap start.

I bet you could find some lectures at different colleges on line as to nomenclature in organic chemistry classes. It's one of the first things covered in Organic 1.

*Organic Chemistry I for DUMMIES sits to my right on the desk*


I have to take OChem next year and Dad picked this up for me to get a head start. Pretty good if you ask me, but as far as reading and deciefiering steroids I don't know if I'd recommend it. Organic = Carbon so alot of the material coverd (thus far what I've covered) doesn't include the andro's, dione's, diol's, and all but rather you're typical functional groups cluster into carbon chains.


JP

[B5150]

Originally Posted by Lanbane

If everything PA says is accurate, which no one seems to challenge..... then I hope plenty of people see this and stop to do some thinking for a minute. By this I am not saying to question ALRI.... I am saying don't jump on the bandwagon and ingest the next hyped product just cause everyone else said so. This kind of sh%t scares me to death..... in this case, it was fairly innocent.... but someone is going to pull this with a dangerous compound sooner or later, and all the people who followed like sheep are going to be left paying the price.

If you can't research an ingredient ON YOUR OWN, you shouldn't even touch the darn product.

Thank you for what I hope will be an eye opener PA.

(Steps from soapbox.... trips, falls.....)

The only ones that need step up to the challenge at this point is ALRI. PA's challenge is directed at ALRI and can be disputed by them. They need be given the benefit of the doubt at this point. Whatever PA has deciphered from the label does not even mean that that is truly what is in it (remember that one).

Don't be too naive to believe that many have not already ingested harmful drugs from any of the plethora of supplements that are being ingested by members here at AM or any board for that matter.

Lets be civil.

[Erik2003]

Originally Posted by Lanbane

If you can't research an ingredient ON YOUR OWN, you shouldn't even touch the darn product.

I agree with what you are saying but I'd be careful on saying something like the above. It goes too far. I keeps people from coming to these type of websites, trying to join this type of community, and asking questions.

There is a difference with people trying to research 6-oxo, 7-oxo, and 11-oxo versus people trying to break down something like: 17alpha-methyl-1,4,6-androstatrien-17beta-ol-3-one.

Also most of the people using these, and other compounds can understand what methylating a compound does to it and why it is necessary. But I am willing to bet the majority of people do not understand what something like: "6-androstatrien-17beta-ol-3-one" is.

Personally, I may be mispeaking, as I am not interested in where carbon atoms are and what ring they orbit from, but I would like to learn more about "6-androstatrien-17beta-ol-3-one" and what type of chemicals such nomenclatures are and how this may differ from one product to another.

Please understand I am not trying to fight, but I did not want the question to be blown off...

[B5150]

Originally Posted by jmh80

B - those scientists aren't good with people.
You gotta give 'em a break - they don't get out of the lab all that often to deal with people, rather than just numbers.

Oh, yeah, and I'm good with people? He's a big boy, he'll be OK.

I should know.

This explains A LOT.

[Lanbane]

[QUOTE=Erik2003;852344]

Originally Posted by Lanbane

If you can't research an ingredient ON YOUR OWN, you shouldn't even touch the darn product.
QUOTE]

I agree with what you are saying but I'd be careful on saying something like the above. It goes too far. I keeps people from coming to these type of websites, trying to join this type of community, and asking questions.

There is a difference with people trying to research 6-oxo, 7-oxo, and 11-oxo versus people trying to break down something like: 17alpha-methyl-1,4,6-androstatrien-17beta-ol-3-one.

Also most of the people using these, and other compounds can understand what methylating a compound does to it and why it is necessary. But I am willing to bet the majority of people do not understand what something like: "6-androstatrien-17beta-ol-3-one" is.

Personally, I may be mispeaking, as I am not interested in where carbon atoms are and what ring they orbit from, but I would like to learn more about "6-androstatrien-17beta-ol-3-one" and what type of chemicals such nomenclatures are and how this may differ from one product to another.

Please understand I am not trying to fight, but I did not want the question to be blown off...

I understand what you are saying here... but comments like mine are not what will keep people away from the lifestyle and industry.... it's the potential negative side effects that will surface one day that will have a much greater impact. What I stated is a simple, sad but true fact: We need to be careful. I am directing this at people who see a new product, start a thread asking what the 17 methyl ethyl killya diol is, get an answer like "my buddy put on 30 lbs of muscle in 1 month... and he didn't even need PCT" and order it up. I am not saying you need to be able to fully recognize a compound on your own, but you need to go a little further than asking strangers on a forum.


Summary: Ask questions. Get answers from others. Make your own, informed decisions.
If a company won't discuss what something is..... there's a reason they don't want you to know. You gamble on what that reason is yourself.

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally Posted by B5150

Actually it is not annoying really. I just flinch a bit knowing what is to come from this. You and I are fine. I completely understand.

i met author and he is a nice guy. he is not an egotistical prick like alot of the others.

i read his product labels and stuff though and it pushes my buttons. it really goes deep with me. alot of it has to do with the fact that alri, and similar companies sell all these synthetic steroid analogs left and right. consumers are awed by it and think to themselves that they are the vanguards of the supplement industry - the smartest and most innovative out there (and i am a hasbeen cuz i don't have a new steroidal product every 3 months). and that hurts my pride

these folks don't really understand that i can not, and will not play on that field. I cannot because i am the one that will get arrested if i sell this stuff cuz of who i am. I will not because i want a legitimate future for my company and that is not consistent with grey market designer steroidals.

but on top of that, i see some of the stuff that comes out and it is so frustrating because if i COULD play that game i would introduce stuff so much better. it drives me nuts!!

well anyway, i guess if i did not have my company and was younger and starting out i might join the designer game. i understand that. i don't fault these people for doing it. maybe my only wish is that people would understand my perception and position in the whole matter

[Lanbane]

Originally Posted by B5150

The only ones that need step up to the challenge at this point is ALRI. PA's challenge is directed at ALRI and can be disputed by them. They need be given the benefit of the doubt at this point. Whatever PA has deciphered from the label does not even mean that that is truly what is in it (remember that one).

Don't be too naive to believe that many have not already ingested harmful drugs from any of the plethora of supplements that are being ingested by members here at AM or any board for that matter.

Lets be civil.

Agreed B5150.

I am definitely not stating anything negative towards ALRI at all. I use, enjoy, and trust a couple ALRI products myself. Simply riding the coattails of a point that this situation MAY illustrate quite well.
There are other instances that highlight the point better (think any case where an ingredient is questioned, and mysteriously.... the company never responds or responds with lies).

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally Posted by r6samson

THE Patrick Arnold? Holy cow, haha...you sir helped me on my way to college major and God-willing future career. Absolutely love your work and to be honest I'm kind of awe struck. Rather meet you then any other athlete in the world. Excellent organic chemist (correct?).


The fact with the ketone at the end though IIRC it's a carbon doubled bonded to an oxygen so would that suffice or it needs to be an aldehyde at the end of the chain? Forgive my horrible attempts to understand. I'm trying to learn.


EDIT: Disregard my 2nd paragraph. I think I see what you're saying now with the hydroxyl group at the end (aldehyde).

JP

an aldehyde is hc=o. you cannot have a aldehyde at C17. that is because it is because it is "secondary" (bound to a carbon that already has two bonds). to have an aldehyde that carbon would need room for another hydrogen to bond to (make sense?)

you seem like you are just learning organic. it will all come to you in time. its like a new language - just takes alot of practice before it becomes second nature

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally Posted by Erik2003

Thanks for the post! I find these type of posts extremely valuable! However, as a non-chemist, I had a hard time following some of the details...

What resources can you suggest, eg textbooks, etc., that can help us, non chemists, utilize to better understand your post and what this all means? I have actually been very interested in trying to decipher the chemical nomenclatures of the various products, understand what they actually do, and be able to learn this on my own.

Any guidance is appreciated.

Thanks for the post.

unless you are some unique super genius (or someone with infinite patience and discipline) you are never going to self teach yourself organic chemistry. you need to go to school for years to pick it up

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally Posted by bLacKjAck.

me= working on getting some ALRI folk in here to make this thing fun....

come on, lets not make this another fight.