ask the patent holder about prohormones

[EricMM]

If you guys have any questions on prohormone products, please fell free to ask. Remember that I don't sell steroids. Prohormones are inactive on their own and are used to optimize the body's own levels. That means ask me about:

1-DHEA
Epiandrosterone
4-DHEA
19Nor-DHEA
5aOHP
1,4-OHP
6-Keto-P

Don't ask me "dude, can I take dymethazine for 8 weeks?" Products like that are steroids, plain and simple and they belong in the steroid forums.

 

[alvin1]

What is the 5AOHP ?

 

[mike33511]

Prohormones are inactive on their own... Yeah, until they go into your body and convert to steroids, which is the whole point, isn't it? This reminds me of a suburban housewife popping prescription opiates and believing that she's different from a heroin user. Drugs are drugs, legal or not.

 

[cheftepesh1]

Great resource here to use for information

 

[EricMM]

What is the 5AOHP ?

This is 5a reduced HydroxyProgesterone. HydroxyProgestins are a new class of prohormone that use a different pathway than the DHEA based ones. I love this product, but it is a mild builder in comparison to 1-DHEA, but it's great for improving my mood and general hardness!

 

[EricMM]

Prohormones are inactive on their own... Yeah, until they go into your body and convert to steroids, which is the whole point, isn't it? This reminds me of a suburban housewife popping prescription opiates and believing that she's different from a heroin user. Drugs are drugs, legal or not.

That's your opinion and I don't agree. I am for the decriminalization of all drugs however, since I believe that prohormones like DHEA have their place and are exempted by Congress, we should enjoy their benefits. I don't use illegal steroids, just my own prohormone products and I love the effects and the way that I feel on them!

 

[alvin1]

This is 5a reduced HydroxyProgesterone. HydroxyProgestins are a new class of prohormone that use a different pathway than the DHEA based ones. I love this product, but it is a mild builder in comparison to 1-DHEA, but it's great for improving my mood and general hardness! View attachment 155484

Less shut down and possibility to run for a longer period of time? Any product using this hormone on the market yet?

 

[De__eB]

Is 19-nor-DHEA an actual natural mammalian metabolite of DHEA?

The compliance case for 1-DHEA/4-DHEA has always been pretty abundantly clear to me, 19-nor-DHEA not so much.

 

[EricMM]

Is 19-nor-DHEA an actual natural mammalian metabolite of DHEA?

The compliance case for 1-DHEA/4-DHEA has always been pretty abundantly clear to me, 19-nor-DHEA not so much.

Yes, it is indeed a metabolite of DHEA. and other plant based steroids like androstenedione. It is also produced endogenously in humans, pigs and I believe cattle.

 

[BCseacow83]

Eric, are you concerned with the new proposed ban listing, perhaps incorrectly, 4-DHEA? I thought this one was on really firm legal ground?

 

[BloodManor]

Would you run a 1 or a 4 product with a 19nor?

 

[VaughnTrue]

Eric, are you concerned with the new proposed ban listing, perhaps incorrectly, 4-DHEA? I thought this one was on really firm legal ground?

the compound they listed is not 4-dhea/4-andro, but the OG 4AD

 

[vujade]

is this up coming ban listed anywhere official other then Anthony Roberts website....?

 

[BCseacow83]

the compound they listed is not 4-dhea/4-andro, but the OG 4AD

Chemical name listed is 4AD, yes, but I personally would feel a hell of a lot more comfortable if the 4dhea was not mistakenly listed, it is causing confusion.

 

[EricMM]

Would you run a 1 or a 4 product with a 19nor?

Always the 1 bro!

 

[BloodManor]

Always the 1 bro!

Which 1?


Jk

 

[BCseacow83]

Eric, the AI's in the new Gaspari Novedex, do they have any effect on cortisol? Arimistane reportedly does and I cannot use anything that effects cortisol, mainly I cannot afford to lower it at all. Thank you!

Also if you guys are not aware of who Eric is he is a real stand up guy as I used to rep years ago for his company and he always was more than generous and actually cares about what we are putting in our bodies and cares about the industry.

 

[cheftepesh1]

Also if you guys are not aware of who Eric is he is a real stand up guy as I used to rep years ago for his company and he always was more than generous and actually cares about what we are putting in our bodies and cares about the industry.

This. I have had the pleasure of working with him for several years and it’s about you guys first. He won’t rush products to the store if it isn’t it’s best. Also has respect for the many people this industry has and their opinions. A good friend to the industry.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

If you guys have any questions on prohormone products, please fell free to ask. Remember that I don't sell steroids. Prohormones are inactive on their own and are used to optimize the body's own levels.

Are you serious with this? You're telling me that PH use will optimize the body's testosterone production? Regardless of how you want to twist the semantics/wording of this, the fact is that there will be at least some level of suppression (if not shutdown) upon cessation of use, which is what AAS/testosterone will do (although I'm not implying that it will be to exactly the same degree).

That's your opinion and I don't agree. I am for the decriminalization of all drugs however, since I believe that prohormones like DHEA have their place and are exempted by Congress, we should enjoy their benefits. I don't use illegal steroids, just my own prohormone products and I love the effects and the way that I feel on them!

Again, the legality as determined by Congress is hardly the be-all-end-all regarding the safety of a product/ingredient/etc. If we use this logic, that anything that is legal is safe, anything that is illegal is unsafe, or even just that anything legal is safe(r) than anything illegal, then that means that ephedrine is unsafe, or at least not as safe as these PHs. It would also mean that, if your're in the EU, agmatine is unsafe, as it's banned from supplements. This is just completely fallacious logic (appeal to authority, except I would argue that Congress isn't even an authority on the subject). The only thing that these PHs being legal means is that they are not illegal, it really doesn't tell us anything conclusive about their safety. Legality is certainly an appealing aspect for these PHs (as opposed to illegal/banned AAS/PH), but it should not be taken to mean that they are inherently "safe" simply because they are legal.

Also, if you're the patent holder for these PHs (which this thread makes it seem like you are), can you tell us on the record that these PHs are safe and that they will not suppress and/or shut down testosterone production after cessation of use, and also that the noted adverse effects on cardiovascular health/parameters are not of practical concern/significance for end-users of these products?

 

[malin]

Are you serious with this? You're telling me that PH use will optimize the body's testosterone production? Regardless of how you want to twist the semantics/wording of this, the fact is that there will be at least some level of suppression (if not shutdown) upon cessation of use, which is what AAS/testosterone will do (although I'm not implying that it will be to exactly the same degree).


Again, the legality as determined by Congress is hardly the be-all-end-all regarding the safety of a product/ingredient/etc. If we use this logic, that anything that is legal is safe, anything that is illegal is unsafe, or even just that anything legal is safe(r) than anything illegal, then that means that ephedrine is unsafe, or at least not as safe as these PHs. It would also mean that, if your're in the EU, agmatine is unsafe, as it's banned from supplements. This is just completely fallacious logic (appeal to authority, except I would argue that Congress isn't even an authority on the subject). The only thing that these PHs being legal means is that they are not illegal, it really doesn't tell us anything conclusive about their safety. Legality is certainly an appealing aspect for these PHs (as opposed to illegal/banned AAS/PH), but it should not be taken to mean that they are inherently "safe" simply because they are legal.

Also, if you're the patent holder for these PHs (which this thread makes it seem like you are), can you tell us on the record that these PHs are safe and that they will not suppress and/or shut down testosterone production after cessation of use, and also that the noted adverse effects on cardiovascular health/parameters are not of practical concern/significance for end-users of these products?

Eric where you are ? Don't be scared homie . Lol .

 

[EricMM]

Sorry, I had life issues.

I can say that it's my opinion that these products are reasonably safe for males to use. That's the standards and no, they are not "free" of side effects but even in that vein short term suppression has been shown to prolong testicular "life" for testosterone production.

Everything has pluses and minuses. It's for us to weigh out the benefits vs. the liabilities and make decisions like the adults that we are!

 

[EricMM]

Sorry, I had life issues.

I can say that it's my opinion that these products are reasonably safe for males to use. That's the standards and no, they are not "free" of side effects but even in that vein short term suppression has been shown to prolong testicular "life" for testosterone production.

Everything has pluses and minuses. It's for us to weigh out the benefits vs. the liabilities and make decisions like the adults that we are!

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Sorry, I had life issues.

I can say that it's my opinion that these products are reasonably safe for males to use. That's the standards and no, they are not "free" of side effects but even in that vein short term suppression has been shown to prolong testicular "life" for testosterone production.

Everything has pluses and minuses. It's for us to weigh out the benefits vs. the liabilities and make decisions like the adults that we are!

So the adverse effects on cardiovascular health while using them and the suppression of testosterone production upon cessation of use aren't practically relevant or of significant concern? These aren't things that should be brought up to people looking to use them, particularly young and inexperienced people? Recommending these PHs to new lifters with no OCT and OTC PCT is good advice?

Yes, it all comes down to risk vs reward, but we should do our part to make people aware of the positives AND the negatives, not just glossing over the negatives by saying "they're legal so they must be safe."

 

[EricMM]

So the adverse effects on cardiovascular health while using them and the suppression of testosterone production upon cessation of use aren't practically relevant or of significant concern? These aren't things that should be brought up to people looking to use them, particularly young and inexperienced people? Recommending these PHs to new lifters with no OCT and OTC PCT is good advice?

Yes, it all comes down to risk vs reward, but we should do our part to make people aware of the positives AND the negatives, not just glossing over the negatives by saying "they're legal so they must be safe."

Absolutely, there is nothing wrong with educating people and informing them. There are warnings on the bottles of course but it's great to educate people.

 

[Young Gotti]

all drugs should be legal, everyone has the right to put whatever they want in their own bodies, good or bad

I've made the conscious decision that PH's aren't worth it imo for myself and I didn't want to deal with them.....it's on the consumer to educate themselves on the potential risks vs rewards on everything they put inside of them, weather it be fried foods, PH's, or heroin

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Absolutely, there is nothing wrong with educating people and informing them. There are warnings on the bottles of course but it's great to educate people.

But didn't you recently make a thread(s) saying that PHs increase natural testosterone production (which seems to indicate the exact opposite of suppression), that natural test boosters can have worse side effects than PHs (which is largely wrong the vast majority of the time), and that PHs are safe because they're legal? Also, shouldn't it be mentioned that a "proper" PCT (not just OTC) is ideal. Sure, it may not be a literal absolute necessity, but shouldn't we make people be aware of the options and the pros and cons of each so they can make an informed and educated decision? I do think PHs have their place and their uses, but I don't think it's responsible, or accurate, to gloss over the potential adverse effects of PH use when recommending them to new, inexperienced lifters.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Furthermore, since I, as well as others, have raised quite a few questions/concerns that have not been addressed, I'll try to compile them here so we don't have to jump around the forum constantly to keep up:

1.) You say, and I quote from this very thread, that "Prohormones are inactive on their own and are used to optimize the body's own levels." This is simply not true. The prohormones are converted into things that get converted into testosterone (simplification), but that is still the same end result, as a best case scenario, as the use of exogenous testosterone. This is NOT increasing your body's natural testosterone production. The question here is, if what you say is true (which it is not), will use of these PHs lead to suppression (if not shutdown) of natural testosterone levels upon cessation of use?

2.) You also said "These so called "natural" herbal testosterone boosters can have negative side effects worse than prohormones such as estrogenic compounds and even boosting testosterone without reducing aromatase." With that said, would you say that, a a whole, these PHs are safer than the often-recommended natural test-boosters here on AM? That the PHs have less adverse effects?

3.) You said "Congress gave us DHEA's as an exemption and Progestins as an exemption for a reason, so let's enjoy the benefits!" I can certainly understand the appeal of using legal PHs as opposed to illegal anabolics (other PHs or AAS), but do you really believe that legality is inherently an accurate/sufficient confirmation of safety? Does this mean that PHs (legal) are safer than ephedrine (not legal as an OTC supplement) or agmatine (not legal in the EU)?

4.) The (limited) research on PHs (1-andro) has shown that while it is certainly effective in regards to increasing strength and muscle mass, it appears to also have significant adverse effects on cardiovascular health/parameters, and the researchers noted that the degree of these adverse effects was greater than past-generation PHs, and at least on part with what has been observed with AS. With that said, do you not think that these adverse effects on cardiovascular health/function/parameters are a practical/relevant/significant concern when using this PH? Do you not think that young, beginner, inexperienced people should be made aware of these effects before being recommended these products? Do you not think that OCT is necessary, or at least strongly recommended, to try to minimize these adverse effects?

 

[BCseacow83]

So the adverse effects on cardiovascular health while using them and the suppression of testosterone production upon cessation of use aren't practically relevant or of significant concern? These aren't things that should be brought up to people looking to use them, particularly young and inexperienced people? Recommending these PHs to new lifters with no OCT and OTC PCT is good advice?

Yes, it all comes down to risk vs reward, but we should do our part to make people aware of the positives AND the negatives, not just glossing over the negatives by saying "they're legal so they must be safe."

I agree that a PCT should always be used. As far as cardiovascular sides I think the stims everyone slams like candy via Pre's and thermos are doing far more damage than PH's are so we should be exercising caution with them as they are far more common.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I agree that a PCT should always be used. As far as cardiovascular sides I think the stims everyone slams like candy via Pre's and thermos are doing far more damage than PH's are so we should be exercising caution with them as they are far more common.

I'm not talking about negative cardiovascular effects of acute (over)dosing, as would be the case with stimulants, but the inherent effects of using the ingredient at the effective dose period. Are you really going to tell me that a 40% reduction in HDL and a 30% elevation in LDL isn't significant or concerning? There is a relative plethora of safety data on many stimulants compared to the dearth of safety data on these PHs. It's also worth noting that the above mentioned adverse effects on cholesterol were from only one PH, not the stack of 2-3+ people commonly run and are recommended, which would logically, if anything, lead to further adverse effects on cardiovascular parameters.

Edit: Regarding stimulant intake from supplements, I'm obviously talking about following label directions, just as I am with PH use. These adverse effects on cardiovascular parameters were noted with what is a commonly used dose of a single PH. What studies can you show me that show similar adverse effects from following label directions on PWOs and thermogenics? Ignoring the 1 in 1,000,000 PWO that has 800mg caffeine, as that's hardly "common," and never recommended here on AM, while the dose of the PH used in the study is a very commonly used dose, and is often only one of a 2-3+ PH stack.

 

[BCseacow83]

Longterm use of even normal doses of stims has potential for harm. Increasing heart rate, dehydration and increased blood pressure especially while training can cause long term damage.

No where did I say a decrease in HDL to be unimportant. That being said the risk of lowering HDL for say six weeks a couple of times a year is being blown way out of proportion.

ME PERSONALLY would feel more comfortable with say two six week cycles a year VS stims before every workout.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Longterm use of even normal doses of stims has potential for harm. Increasing heart rate, dehydration and increased blood pressure especially while training can cause long term damage.

No where did I say a decrease in HDL to be unimportant. That being said the risk of lowering HDL for say six weeks a couple of times a year is being blown way out of proportion.

ME PERSONALLY would feel more comfortable with say two six week cycles a year VS stims before every workout.

Go and read my article on caffeine. Maybe you are talking about different stimulants than caffeine, but caffeine, even in relatively high doses (higher than just about any PWO) have been demonstrated to be not only not harmful, but even potentially beneficial for various aspects of health/wellbeing/etc.

 

[BCseacow83]

Go and read my article on caffeine. Maybe you are talking about different stimulants than caffeine, but caffeine, even in relatively high doses (higher than just about any PWO) have been demonstrated to be not only not harmful, but even potentially beneficial for various aspects of health/wellbeing/etc.

I primarily am referring to the non caffeine stims that are very common in the pres and thermos these days. I will agree that caffeine, as long as it does not cause a BP spike and or tachycardia(this would be very individual of course) and the user stay hydrated poses very little risk.

I have already read your caffeine post, very well written. I actually quoted you on facebook when recommending theacrine to some folks.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I primarily am referring to the non caffeine stims that are very common in the pres and thermos these days. I will agree that caffeine, as long as it does not cause a BP spike and or tachycardia(this would be very individual of course) and the user stay hydrated poses very little risk.

I have already read your caffeine post, very well written. I actually quoted you on facebook when recommending theacrine to some folks.

Haha, thanks, that's awesome to hear man. Moderation is the key with most things in life (stimulants, alcohol, food, and even PHs if you decide to use them), and education is key.

 

[dvw]

1 dhea DOES screw up cholesterol. But it goes back normal after PCT in most cases

 

[VaughnTrue]

1 dhea DOES screw up cholesterol. But it goes back normal after PCT in most cases

all anabolics screw up cholesterol. but it always goes back to baseline a few weeks after.

 

[dvw]

all anabolics screw up cholesterol. but it always goes back to baseline a few weeks after.

I totally agree. I think the 1 dhea 4 dhea are much easier on lipids liver than any methyl orals guys take for 40 to 60 days. 440 mgs hi tech1 testosterone gives me just as good of gainz as much harsher orals.

 

[VaughnTrue]

I totally agree. I think the 1 dhea 4 dhea are much easier on lipids liver than any methyl orals guys take for 40 to 60 days. 440 mgs hi tech1 testosterone gives me just as good of gainz as much harsher orals.

Glad you enjoyed them!

When I first started to read up on the 1-dhea/4-dhea, I honestly wasn't that impressed. After I ran 1-Testosterone from HTP though, I really was blown away by what they were capable of. I didn't get the side effects from the methyl monsters, and I had honestly great gains. Surprised the living hell out of me. I am not a huge believer.

 

[Nac]

Glad you enjoyed them!

When I first started to read up on the 1-dhea/4-dhea, I honestly wasn't that impressed. After I ran 1-Testosterone from HTP though, I really was blown away by what they were capable of. I didn't get the side effects from the methyl monsters, and I had honestly great gains. Surprised the living hell out of me. I am not a huge believer.

"VaughnTrue, youre fired!!"

 

[VaughnTrue]

"VaughnTrue, youre fired!!"

LOL dammit. NOW.

I meant NOW dammit!

 

[muscleupcrohn]

LOL dammit. NOW.

I meant NOW dammit!

Haha, I read it as you aren't naturally someone who believed in it a lot before using it, sort of saying that you're naturally skeptical, but the correction makes more sense.

 

[VaughnTrue]

Haha, I read it as you aren't naturally someone who believed in it a lot before using it, sort of saying that you're naturally skeptical, but the correction makes more sense.

i do my best to remain skeptical on all things dietary supplement related until i see proof otherwise. Thus why I stayed skeptical of these compounds until I ran them, and saw many users getting similar results.

 

[EricMM]

We agree on everything but I am not convinced that OTC testosterone boosting agents are any safer than prohormones they are usually just less studied. Doesn't appear that they tested testosterone levels on and post cycle which is odd but I am not convinced that everyone experiences suppression from prohormones.

Herbal testosterone boosters don't seem to provide positives and many of them seem to have both androgenic and estrogenic effects.

I said feel free to educate and we certainly do as well. You make good points but many people use prohormones and testosterone boosters without any long term effects.

 

[EricMM]

Chronic stimulants increase blood pressure but again for most people they are reasonably safe.

 

[dvw]

Dhea pro hormones will suppress your HPTA to a mild extent. If you consume 600 to 900 mg of 1,4,epi dhea stack you will be suppressed. I don't think that's up for debate. If you run 30 day cycle of dhea pro hormone is only time OTC pct would suffice. OTC pct product like i force resveratrol v2 or Olympus super pct are best in my opinion.

 

[Nac]

Doesn't appear that they tested testosterone levels on and post cycle which is odd but I am not convinced that everyone experiences suppression from prohormones.

Thats the problem though, the vast majority of users will not do any pre/post cycle bloods. Guys will come on here looking for generic advice about suppression and PCT, so it seems reasonable to me for the cookie-cutter recommendation of a SERM to be made.

The vast majority of us will never be involved in a significant automobile accident, yet we would all agree that despite this statistic it is still reasonable practice to always wear a seatbelt.

Until such time that convincing evidence is presented that using a SERM at reasonable doses for short durations involves cons that outweigh pros, its utility as a PCT is like the seatbelt. And, we know a SERM is a "testbooster" that is very reliable and efficient.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

We agree on everything but I am not convinced that OTC testosterone boosting agents are any safer than prohormones they are usually just less studied.

Holy ****. Wow, just wow... I'm... but... I can't even formulate a response to this.

It's been a few minutes, and I've recovered from the minor aneurysm your post gave me, but I'll try to respond to why that's insane. First, there is no need to run OCT or PCT with natural test boosters, while they are all but necessities with PHs. Second, natural testosterone boosters will not suppress or shut down your natural testosterone production, which PHs at least have the potential to do. It may not be very significant for everyone, but it is certainly something that should be monitored, minimized, and treated.

You talk about "long term" use of prohormones? We don't have long-term studies on these PHs, hell, we don't have many studies on them at all. OTC test boosters have less research than new PHs? Since you mentioned ashwagandha in your other thread, lets use that as an example. It's an Ayurvedic herb that has a history of use 2000+ years, with mountains of research and studies on it. There is an absolute dearth of safety information on new PHs relative to the vast majority of ingredients in natural testosterone boosters, and the overwhelming consensus in the research community is that there is significantly greater concern regarding the use of PHs than freaking ashwagandha. Tongkat ali, forksolin, etc, all have a ton more research than these PHs too. Of course PH > natural in terms of gains and results, but you're completely delusional if you don't also admit/realize that they carry, as a whole, SIGNIFICANTLY, greater and more severe potential adverse effects and risks.

 

[VaughnTrue]

actually, 1-DHEA was studied decently well by west texas a&m I believe it was

 

[muscleupcrohn]

actually, 1-DHEA was studied decently well by west texas a&m I believe it was

Yes, and that is one of the studies I have been repeatedly referencing. It establishes a basis that it does indeed work well, but also that it has potential adverse effects that should be noted, considered, and attempted to be minimized. The research does NOT indicate that it is safer than natural test boosters, but that doesn't mean its "unsafe" or shouldn't be used at all. It has risks, and it has rewards. Both are greater than natural products. There is also not much (any) long term studies on it, but that's because it's "new." My point was just to disagree with Eric saying that it is more thoroughly studies than natural test boosting ingredients, or that he research indicates it is safer. I'm not anti-PH, I'm anti incorrect/misleading information regarding prohormones. There's a major distinction to be made there.

 

[dvw]

WARNING! Forskolin may cause you to crap your pants.

 

[EricMM]

WARNING! Forskolin may cause you to crap your pants.

Yes indeed! It's also probably linked to cancer but I do love the stuff. Just makes me **** myself silly!