GDA post workout. Yay or nay?

[mrhankey87]

What do you guys think?

 

[cubsfan815]

Nay. Post workout your body is already going to utilize the carbs.

 

[The Solution]

What do you guys think?

No
Working out is the best GDA you can have and insulin sensitivity is very high after training.
Save it for pre workout or a heavy carb meal away from training.

Good threads:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/294162-nutrient-partitioning-glucose.html#post5780748
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/293248-gdas-2.html#post5761682
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/294093-occasional-gda-dosing.html#post5778768

 

[GreekTheBrick]

No man. Why increasing insulin sensitivity post workout that your body is already primed to utilize carbs and not some other time?

Edit: came in a close second!

 

[Robert5891]

Not really necessary. Following intense training, your body's itching to utilize the carbs you eat to replenish glycogen, repair damaged tissues, etc.

Other times of the day, sure GDAs can by helpful, but immediately post workout, not really necessary.

 

[bigsmall]

I still like to use one post workout - when I am know I will be eating a few meals over the course of the next 4-5 hours. The pump is extra wicked and I really feel it gets more nutrients and fluid to the muscle. Works for me...

 

[mrhankey87]

Just asking cause I feel very lethargic postwo - can definitely be the workout and the fact I finish at 10:20pm, but if I can feel a little less lethargic given I'm eating at least 100gr fast carbs and 50gr whey

 

[The Solution]

Just asking cause I feel very lethargic postwo - can definitely be the workout and the fact I finish at 10:20pm, but if I can feel a little less lethargic given I'm eating at least 100gr fast carbs and 50gr whey

Lethargic could be caused by
- Overall volume
- Sleep
- Hydration
- Amount of food/calories (especially citting)
- Amount of cardio
- Duration of a diet

There are too many factors to say your "Lethargic" and then think a pill is going to solve the issue. If that is the case the last thing you need to look for is a GDA to help the lethargy. Possibly things like an ergogenic (Ergonine) or ingredients such as COP, LCLT, Hica, Synerglut, Creatine, Beta-alanine, betaine which are all performance enhancers

In the post-workout window when insulin sensitivity is very high, the need for a GDA is minimal because working out is the best GDA you can have. Pass on it and focus on the major factors which are most likely contributing to lethargy. plus the need for simple carbs post-workout is one of the biggest myths in the books. If you have an adequate pre-workout meal it will still be digesting post-workout and you don't need to spike insulin. I could link a dozen + studies which debunks that myth from the 1990's

For example:


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15277409
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17617942



For most of us who train with an intra-workout BCAA or pre-workout meal there is stil food overlap as i touched in the other thread, do we need to spike insulin? absolutely not, food is still digesting, aminos are still present, so do we really need simple carbs post-workout not really..

Could they be optimal .. sure why not? but remember the total calories/macros if meeting your protein/fat/fiber minimums on a daily basis are optimal for your goal.


more:

The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.

So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204

Here's what you're not seeming to grasp: the "windows" for taking advantage of nutrient timing are not little peepholes. They're more like bay windows of a mansion. You're ignoring just how long the anabolic effects are of a typical mixed meal. Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everything to drop back down to baseline.

You're also ignoring the fact that the anabolic effects of a meal are maxed out at much lower levels than typical meals drive insulin & amino acids up to. Furthermore, you're also ignoring the body's ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) super compensation when forced to work in the absence of fuels. So, metaphorically speaking, our physiology basically has the universe mapped out and you're thinking it needs to be taught addition & subtraction.




More:

"You do not need to necessarily "spike" insulin for creatine to be maximally absorbed, but yes insulin is involved with the trasnsport.

FYI: The insulin and creatine studies I have seen up to this point have involved taking the glucose 30 minutes after the creatine. This may be because the insulin release from the dextrose doesn't entirely coincident with the pharmacokinetics of the creatine absorption.

Personally I think more consistent waves of insulin may be more anabolic than "spikes" anyway. This is because smoother waves of insulin more than likely affect ATP production more beneficially than "spikes" probably do. ATP is what rebuilds muscles and you want the most efficiency you can get here. I'm saying this because there is a delicate balance here between oxidative phosphorylation and lipogenesis (stimulated by acetyl COA carboxylase from HCO3-) in the mitochondrial in the presence of insulin. This "balance" I am talking about here is different for everyone though. Some people "shunt" over to lipgenesis so much sooner than other people. This has to do with other "global" processes happening in the body."

http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_****319


The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulinlevels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.

So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204

 

[abformulations]

Here's what's Matt said about slintinsity post workout-

Slintensity as a post workout recovery tool.

PGE2, EP4 and activation of muscle specific stem cells.

Inhibited by NSAIDS, and augmented by berberine, further evidence that Slintensity taken with a carb heavy post workout meal can enhance recovery and increase muscle growth.

Prostaglandin E2 is essential for efficacious skeletal muscle stem-cell function, augmenting regeneration and strength.
Ho ATV, et al. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2017.
Show full citation
Abstract

Skeletal muscles harbor quiescent muscle-specific stem cells (MuSCs) capable of tissue regeneration throughout life. Muscle injury precipitates a complex inflammatory response in which a multiplicity of cell types, cytokines, and growth factors participate. Here we show that Prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) is an inflammatory cytokine that directly targets MuSCs via the EP4 receptor, leading to MuSC expansion. An acute treatment with PGE2 suffices to robustly augment muscle regeneration by either endogenous or transplanted MuSCs. Loss of PGE2 signaling by specific genetic ablation of the EP4 receptor in MuSCs impairs regeneration, leading to decreased muscle force. Inhibition of PGE2 production through nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID) administration just after injury similarly hinders regeneration and compromises muscle strength. Mechanistically, the PGE2 EP4 interaction causes MuSC expansion by triggering a cAMP/phosphoCREB pathway that activates the proliferation-inducing transcription factor, Nurr1 Our findings reveal that loss of PGE2 signaling to MuSCs during recovery from injury impedes muscle repair and strength. Through such gain- or loss-of-function experiments, we found that PGE2 signaling acts as a rheostat for muscle stem-cell function. Decreased PGE2 signaling due to NSAIDs or increased PGE2 due to exogenous delivery dictates MuSC function, which determines the outcome of regeneration. The markedly enhanced and accelerated repair of damaged muscles following intramuscular delivery of PGE2 suggests a previously unrecognized indication for this therapeutic agent.
PMID 28607093 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

I will be testing this out.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Nay.

 

[Jiigzz]

Nay