The Anabolic Minds Supplement Roundtable

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Some months back I kinda recall you had mentioned it could hinder the benefits of hypertrophy, that the carb blocking would be not ideal also for a bulk? Can you elaborate on this for the crowd Dr.Cooper?
    It's too complex an issue to address in a post (maybe a coop's corner?) but if you dose berberine properly, both amount and timing, it will be conducive to growth and performance. This is a dual function of its effects in the gut + AMPK activation
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob112 View Post

    Induces AMPK, no?
    That is in a rat study and it apparently suppresses muscle growth, at least momentarily...but then refreshing myself some I came across something saying rats with increased AMPK got hungry faster and ate more; this growing in size. The second thing doesn't account for carb blocking of berberine which would cut some calories(I believe mildly). It's been awhile since I read about this stuff.

    Edit: what that guys says! ^^
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    It's too complex an issue to address in a post (maybe a coop's corner?) but if you dose berberine properly, both amount and timing, it will be conducive to growth and performance. This is a dual function of its effects in the gut + AMPK activation
    I kinda am glad you addressed that though, because I remember before you were not really in favor of certain doses of it and lately your taste shifted and it does reflect on the fact that, like you said it is a Dose and Timing dependent matter!

    So now, who here would like to contribute trying to find out the Timing and Dosage needed for it to be more, or less, effective towards the benefits of hypertrophy and a bulk? @Synapsin perhaps...or does @De__eB wanna go at it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Berberine is legit. I think a major reason it's not more heavily touted for actual therapeutic effects on diabetes is because it lowers the Cmax of many co-ingested drugs while simultaneously reducing metabolism
    I remember you referring to berberine as "dirty" compound, and its use would best be served for cheat meal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post

    I remember you referring to berberine as "dirty" compound, and its use would best be served for cheat meal.
    Same here, now he is a fan! Good though, but share the knowledge of what changed Cybear!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Hook;
    Pretty great results. These people all had metabolic syndrome fwiw.

    Effect of Berberine Administration on Metabolic Syndrome, Insulin Sensitivity, and Insulin Secretion.

    pubmed: berberine / by P?rez-Rubio KG, Gonz?lez-Ortiz M, Mart?nez-Abundis E, Robles-Cervantes JA, Espinel-Berm?dez MC / 23 hours ago
    Effect of Berberine Administration on Metabolic Syndrome, Insulin Sensitivity, and Insulin Secretion.

    Metab Syndr Relat Disord. 2013 Jun 28;

    Authors: P?rez-Rubio KG, Gonz?lez-Ortiz M, Mart?nez-Abundis E, Robles-Cervantes JA, Espinel-Berm?dez MC

    Abstract
    Abstract Background: The aim of this study was to evaluate the effect of berberine administration on metabolic syndrome, insulin sensitivity, and insulin secretion. Methods: A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial was carried out in 24 patients with a diagnosis of metabolic syndrome. Glucose and insulin levels after a dextrose load were measured. Triglycerides and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol concentrations at baseline were also measured. Twelve patients received berberine hydrochloride (500 mg) three times daily before meals for 3 months. The remaining 12 patients received placebo. Area under the curve (AUC) of glucose and insulin, total insulin secretion, first-phase of insulin secretion, and insulin sensitivity were assessed. Results: After berberine administration, patients had a remission of 36% (P=0.037) in the presence of metabolic syndrome and a significant decrease in waist circumference in females (106?4 vs. 103?3 cm, P<0.05), systolic blood pressure (SBP) (123?7 vs. 115?9 mmHg, P<0.01), triglycerides (2.4?0.7 vs. 1.4?0.5 mmol/L, P<0.01), area under the curve (AUC) of glucose (1182.1?253.6 vs. 1069.5?172.4 mmol/l, P<0.05), AUC of insulin (92,056?72,148 vs. 67,407?46,441 pmol/L, P<0.01), and insulinogenic index (0.78?0.69 vs. 0.62?0.46, P<0.05), as well as an increase in the Matsuda index (2.1?1.0 vs. 3.1?1.6, P<0.01). Conclusions: Administration of berberine leads to remission of metabolic syndrome and decreases in waist circumference, SBP, triglycerides, and total insulin secretion, with an increase in insulin sensitivity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Same here, now he is a fan! Good though, but share the knowledge of what changed Cybear!
    Data is always emerging about new compounds, at rates faster than ever before. Nothing is in stone
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    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Berberine is legit. I think a major reason it's not more heavily touted for actual therapeutic effects on diabetes is because it lowers the Cmax of many co-ingested drugs while simultaneously reducing metabolism
    Berberine is definitely underrated. People seem to hav an issue with its mTOR properties seem on the effect of atrogin 1

    But that has been discussed
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    Quote Originally Posted by EBF Inc View Post

    Berberine is definitely underrated. People seem to hav an issue with its mTOR properties seem on the effect of atrogin 1

    But that has been discussed
    I like it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post

    Data is always emerging about new compounds, at rates faster than ever before. Nothing is in stone
    ^^^ very true statement.
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    First, I think this thread is a great idea. For the life of me, I can't understand anyone trying to shoot holes in it.

    As consideration for the list - I would suggest Potassium Bicarbonate.

    The Linus Pauling Institute has some interesting things to say regarding its potential for cardio protection.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau View Post
    First, I think this thread is a great idea. For the life of me, I can't understand anyone trying to shoot holes in it.

    As consideration for the list - I would suggest Potassium Bicarbonate.

    The Linus Pauling Institute has some interesting things to say regarding its potential for cardio protection.
    If you were considering using it instead of NaHCO3 (preworkout), here is something to consider:

    Quote Originally Posted by Adel
    Can I use potassium bicarbonate instead? NO! You can combine both, but from a physiological standpoint it does not makes sense to increase your serum potassium levels before a workout, because especially strength training will leech potassium from the cells into the blood anyways. Moreover your body conserves potassium pretty well during a workout, while you lose a comparably large amount of sodium in your sweat. In other words, you risk offsetting the peculiar balance of the extra-cellular sodium ions and the intracellular potassium ions. While weakness or skeletal muscle hyperexcitability would be rather harmless, but certainly ergolytic consequences, this can - in the worst case - lead to bradycardia (=abnormally slow heartbeats), arrhythmias and even sudden cardiac arrest as it was observed in the two "salt-phobic" bodybuilders in the case report I already cited in the comments on the "Sodium Bicarbonate for High Volume Strength Training" post (cf. John. 2011; there were probably confounding factors at play, here, but still, the risk of developing hyperkalemia is nothing you can totally exclude, if you ingest tons of potassium within a couple of minutes).
    If you feel that you don't get enough potassium in your diet, anyway, I'd suggest you mix them at a 3:1 ratio as you usually see it for "normal" sodium and potassium in electrolyte products.
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    Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    If you were considering using it instead of NaHCO3 (preworkout), here is something to consider:

    SuppVersity - Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone
    Wow - thank you.

    I have been using a relatively small amount of sodium bicarbonate with certain supplements because, frankly, some of them give me an emergent gastro-intestinal issue when taken on an empty stomach - and anecdotally I have found this is lessened with sodium bicarb.

    So, it seems as if I want to supplement with potassium bicarbonate, the recommendation would be to do so sparingly, and at a 3 to 1 ratio; sodium to potassium.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Touey View Post
    (Tribulus Aquaticus (Stem and Leouriaf) Extract, Chebulic Myrobalan (Bean) Extract)
    Quote Originally Posted by rob112 View Post
    Fruit and water chestnut extracts...outside of that I could never find much outside of anecdotal feedback on being very good or not good(GI effects or none).
    Permanent Muscle Gains
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    Extremely Potent Re-composition Effects
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    Thank the reply rob112 please understand when say am I trying to understand mechanism in action for ingredients causing some to list the above because am a person always curious know why to how things work so wish for any contributor also similar in thinking so we may bring light the how then I feel there we will have a better handle on the dose usage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Touey View Post

    oPermanent Muscle Gains
    oDoes not cause shut-down or suppression!
    oPromotes Muscle Gain of Thick, Dense Variety!
    oExtremely Potent Re-composition Effects
    oEnormous Strength Gains
    oIncredible Recovery Speed
    oAll-Day Muscle Fullness/Hardness
    oIncredible Euphoria

    Thank the reply rob112 please understand when say am I trying to understand mechanism in action for ingredients causing some to list the above because am a person always curious know why to how things work so wish for any contributor also similar in thinking so we may bring light the how then I feel there we will have a better handle on the usage.
    I hear you on this, what I was really getting at is I don't believe the evidence outside of forum anecdote exists. It's just not there. You probably won't get much response unfortunately because when you talk about these ingredients you really only single out one product. When you discuss "insert any other supplement ingredient" you can get discussion without and worries of singling out a company or product.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob112 View Post

    I hear you on this, what I was really getting at is I don't believe the evidence outside of forum anecdote exists. It's just not there. You probably won't get much response unfortunately because when you talk about these ingredients you really only single out one product. When you discuss "insert any other supplement ingredient" you can get discussion without and worries of singling out a company or product.
    He's definitely fishing for something, and I don't think its positive discussion.


    But, you're right, anecdote is all you'll get on that (I've looked as well).
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob112 View Post
    I hear you on this, what I was really getting at is I don't believe the evidence outside of forum anecdote exists. It's just not there. You probably won't get much response unfortunately because when you talk about these ingredients you really only single out one product. When you discuss "insert any other supplement ingredient" you can get discussion without and worries of singling out a company or product.
    Yes what you say makes much sense I have wonder some times that company such as SNS would make each separately in bulk form am very interested in understanding some ideas or surely some must have theories perhaps on how these are working.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    He's definitely fishing for something, and I don't think its positive discussion.
    Know everyone making joke here all the time perhaps though for while we will try to honest and work all together to better understanding the how in the way compositions work. I think when we are all being honest to helping one another we will have only positive discussion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Touey View Post
    Know everyone making joke here all the time perhaps though for while we will try to honest and work all together to better understanding the how in the way compositions work. I think when we are all being honest to helping one another we will have only positive discussion.
    You're alright Touey don't worry about it man... that's exactly the point of this thread
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post

    You're alright Touey don't worry about it man... that's exactly the point of this thread


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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    No, unless you have cognitive decline or mt disorders that require supraphysiological doses of creatine for phosphate donation and/or allosteric modulation of the NMDA receptor. I hate to say it but the examine.com authors are data miners...they don't know how to interpret it. Creatine has a saturating effect, so according to them, we can never take agmatine period if we want to boost cognitive function, even if our last creatine dose was 12 hours ago. Agmatine will block the NMDA receptor in a manner independent of creatine's allosterism, so there is no real antagonism, just independent effects
    Good info man, thanks for dropping in. Deff good to have you as part of the roundtable
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    Possiple discussion(thoughts/info) on Fadogia Agrestis.

    Possible benefits:
    Increase Testosterone levels.
    Increase LH.
    Restoring testicular fullness.
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    ^^^ I personally really like this ingredient, but would like to hear others thoughts. Thanks guys!
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    Thoughts on building up tolerances to nitrates?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    Thoughts on building up tolerances to nitrates?
    Nitrate tolerance at the doses we're seeing in supplements before a workout isn't really going to be an issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELROCK View Post
    Possiple discussion(thoughts/info) on Fadogia Agrestis.

    Possible benefits:
    Increase Testosterone levels.
    Increase LH.
    Restoring testicular fullness.
    Many people LOVE Fadogia man! I know Coop is a big fan of Fadogia... Fadogia has been tabled let's get a ruling! I personally haven't used it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    Many people LOVE Fadogia man! I know Coop is a big fan of Fadogia... Fadogia has been tabled let's get a ruling! I personally haven't used it
    I'd like to give the ingredient a try given that a product that contains it is called HCGenerate. I tend to avoid products that use hormonal based names but meh, be interesting to see what happens.
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    Subbd to learn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post

    I'd like to give the ingredient a try given that a product that contains it is called I suck ballz. I tend to avoid products that use hormonal based names but meh, be interesting to see what happens.
    Really?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    Many people LOVE Fadogia man! I know Coop is a big fan of Fadogia... Fadogia has been tabled let's get a ruling! I personally haven't used it
    On a purely anecdotal basis I love Fadogia. As far as libido and mood I think that was the top ingredient in that category for me (granted my youth I don't think that says too much).

    I only ever used T-force and Bioforge Promax.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolt10 View Post

    On a purely anecdotal basis I love Fadogia. As far as libido and mood I think that was the top ingredient in that category for me (granted my youth I don't think that says too much).

    I only ever used T-force and Bioforge Promax.
    I've only used it I. Promax myself(a few times) and I liked the product a lot. The combo of that and forskolin made a very nice libido boosting, recomping, feel good supplement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELROCK View Post
    Possiple discussion(thoughts/info) on Fadogia Agrestis.

    Possible benefits:
    Increase Testosterone levels.
    Increase LH.
    Restoring testicular fullness.
    The only thing that needs to be remembered with test boosting products is that realistically the most benefits you're going to get from it is mood and libido boosts.

    Strength and muscle mass gains will be minimal at best. Unless, it raises your T levels ridiculously high, which it's a natural product so...
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolt10 View Post
    On a purely anecdotal basis I love Fadogia. As far as libido and mood I think that was the top ingredient in that category for me (granted my youth I don't think that says too much).

    I only ever used T-force and Bioforge Promax.
    There is another trusted vote for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    No, unless you have cognitive decline or mt disorders that require supraphysiological doses of creatine for phosphate donation and/or allosteric modulation of the NMDA receptor. I hate to say it but the examine.com authors are data miners...they don't know how to interpret it. Creatine has a saturating effect, so according to them, we can never take agmatine period if we want to boost cognitive function, even if our last creatine dose was 12 hours ago. Agmatine will block the NMDA receptor in a manner independent of creatine's allosterism, so there is no real antagonism, just independent effects
    That's an over-simplification (I'm from Examine.com).

    We said it does not go well with it because it *can* compete. By no means did we imply that they will counteract each other permanently. If you take them at the same time, there can be competition, but we don't exactly know how much would be wasted.

    At the same time - our site has an open discussion. If you think something is wrong, tell us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolt10 View Post

    On a purely anecdotal basis I love Fadogia. As far as libido and mood I think that was the top ingredient in that category for me (granted my youth I don't think that says too much).

    I only ever used T-force and Bioforge Promax.
    Agreed here. Fadogia is solid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolt10 View Post

    On a purely anecdotal basis I love Fadogia. As far as libido and mood I think that was the top ingredient in that category for me (granted my youth I don't think that says too much).

    I only ever used T-force and Bioforge Promax.
    I am using tforce with prime anabeta and testpowder just because I have it lol

    It's been 3 days on all. 2 weeks on test powder and tforce
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoloX View Post

    That's an over-simplification (I'm from Examine.com).

    We said it does not go well with it because it *can* compete. By no means did we imply that they will counteract each other permanently. If you take them at the same time, there can be competition, but we don't exactly know how much would be wasted.

    At the same time - our site has an open discussion. If you think something is wrong, tell us.
    Welcome to the boards then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EBF Inc View Post

    Welcome to the boards then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post

    The only thing that needs to be remembered with test boosting products is that realistically the most benefits you're going to get from it is mood and libido boosts.

    Strength and muscle mass gains will be minimal at best. Unless, it raises your T levels ridiculously high, which it's a natural product so...
    I get more out of fadogia Agrestis then libido and sense of wellness. I mainly get increased testicular fullness and testicular atrophy prevention along side my TRT. So I do feel their are added benefits to this ingredient.
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    But definitely agree you won't gain any actual muscle mass by supplementing with fadogia.
  

  
 

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