The Anabolic Minds Supplement Roundtable

Beau

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First, I think this thread is a great idea. For the life of me, I can't understand anyone trying to shoot holes in it.

As consideration for the list - I would suggest Potassium Bicarbonate.

The Linus Pauling Institute has some interesting things to say regarding its potential for cardio protection.
 

domore

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First, I think this thread is a great idea. For the life of me, I can't understand anyone trying to shoot holes in it.

As consideration for the list - I would suggest Potassium Bicarbonate.

The Linus Pauling Institute has some interesting things to say regarding its potential for cardio protection.
If you were considering using it instead of NaHCO3 (preworkout), here is something to consider:

Can I use potassium bicarbonate instead? NO! You can combine both, but from a physiological standpoint it does not makes sense to increase your serum potassium levels before a workout, because especially strength training will leech potassium from the cells into the blood anyways. Moreover your body conserves potassium pretty well during a workout, while you lose a comparably large amount of sodium in your sweat. In other words, you risk offsetting the peculiar balance of the extra-cellular sodium ions and the intracellular potassium ions. While weakness or skeletal muscle hyperexcitability would be rather harmless, but certainly ergolytic consequences, this can - in the worst case - lead to bradycardia (=abnormally slow heartbeats), arrhythmias and even sudden cardiac arrest as it was observed in the two "salt-phobic" bodybuilders in the case report I already cited in the comments on the "Sodium Bicarbonate for High Volume Strength Training" post (cf. John. 2011; there were probably confounding factors at play, here, but still, the risk of developing hyperkalemia is nothing you can totally exclude, if you ingest tons of potassium within a couple of minutes).
If you feel that you don't get enough potassium in your diet, anyway, I'd suggest you mix them at a 3:1 ratio as you usually see it for "normal" sodium and potassium in electrolyte products.
http://suppversity.blogspot.com/search?q=potassium+bicarbonate
 
Beau

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If you were considering using it instead of NaHCO3 (preworkout), here is something to consider:

SuppVersity - Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone
Wow - thank you.

I have been using a relatively small amount of sodium bicarbonate with certain supplements because, frankly, some of them give me an emergent gastro-intestinal issue when taken on an empty stomach - and anecdotally I have found this is lessened with sodium bicarb.

So, it seems as if I want to supplement with potassium bicarbonate, the recommendation would be to do so sparingly, and at a 3 to 1 ratio; sodium to potassium.
 
Touey

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(Tribulus Aquaticus (Stem and Leouriaf) Extract, Chebulic Myrobalan (Bean) Extract)
Fruit and water chestnut extracts...outside of that I could never find much outside of anecdotal feedback on being very good or not good(GI effects or none).
Permanent Muscle Gains
Promotes Muscle Gain of Thick, Dense Variety
Extremely Potent Re-composition Effects
Enormous Strength Gains
Incredible Recovery Speed
All-Day Muscle Fullness/Hardness
Incredible Euphoria



Thank the reply rob112 please understand when say am I trying to understand mechanism in action for ingredients causing some to list the above because am a person always curious know why to how things work so wish for any contributor also similar in thinking so we may bring light the how then I feel there we will have a better handle on the dose usage.
 
rob112

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oPermanent Muscle Gains
oDoes not cause shut-down or suppression!
oPromotes Muscle Gain of Thick, Dense Variety!
oExtremely Potent Re-composition Effects
oEnormous Strength Gains
oIncredible Recovery Speed
oAll-Day Muscle Fullness/Hardness
oIncredible Euphoria

Thank the reply rob112 please understand when say am I trying to understand mechanism in action for ingredients causing some to list the above because am a person always curious know why to how things work so wish for any contributor also similar in thinking so we may bring light the how then I feel there we will have a better handle on the usage.
I hear you on this, what I was really getting at is I don't believe the evidence outside of forum anecdote exists. It's just not there. You probably won't get much response unfortunately because when you talk about these ingredients you really only single out one product. When you discuss "insert any other supplement ingredient" you can get discussion without and worries of singling out a company or product.
 
jimbuick

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I hear you on this, what I was really getting at is I don't believe the evidence outside of forum anecdote exists. It's just not there. You probably won't get much response unfortunately because when you talk about these ingredients you really only single out one product. When you discuss "insert any other supplement ingredient" you can get discussion without and worries of singling out a company or product.
He's definitely fishing for something, and I don't think its positive discussion.


But, you're right, anecdote is all you'll get on that (I've looked as well).
 
Touey

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I hear you on this, what I was really getting at is I don't believe the evidence outside of forum anecdote exists. It's just not there. You probably won't get much response unfortunately because when you talk about these ingredients you really only single out one product. When you discuss "insert any other supplement ingredient" you can get discussion without and worries of singling out a company or product.
Yes what you say makes much sense I have wonder some times that company such as SNS would make each separately in bulk form am very interested in understanding some ideas or surely some must have theories perhaps on how these are working.
 
Touey

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He's definitely fishing for something, and I don't think its positive discussion.
Know everyone making joke here all the time perhaps though for while we will try to honest and work all together to better understanding the how in the way compositions work. I think when we are all being honest to helping one another we will have only positive discussion.
 
Spaniard

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Know everyone making joke here all the time perhaps though for while we will try to honest and work all together to better understanding the how in the way compositions work. I think when we are all being honest to helping one another we will have only positive discussion.
You're alright Touey don't worry about it man... that's exactly the point of this thread
 
Spaniard

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No, unless you have cognitive decline or mt disorders that require supraphysiological doses of creatine for phosphate donation and/or allosteric modulation of the NMDA receptor. I hate to say it but the examine.com authors are data miners...they don't know how to interpret it. Creatine has a saturating effect, so according to them, we can never take agmatine period if we want to boost cognitive function, even if our last creatine dose was 12 hours ago. Agmatine will block the NMDA receptor in a manner independent of creatine's allosterism, so there is no real antagonism, just independent effects
Good info man, thanks for dropping in. Deff good to have you as part of the roundtable :)
 
ELROCK

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Possiple discussion(thoughts/info) on Fadogia Agrestis.

Possible benefits:
Increase Testosterone levels.
Increase LH.
Restoring testicular fullness.
 
ELROCK

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^^^ I personally really like this ingredient, but would like to hear others thoughts. Thanks guys!
 
jbryand101b

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Thoughts on building up tolerances to nitrates?
 
Spaniard

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Possiple discussion(thoughts/info) on Fadogia Agrestis.

Possible benefits:
Increase Testosterone levels.
Increase LH.
Restoring testicular fullness.
Many people LOVE Fadogia man! I know Coop is a big fan of Fadogia... Fadogia has been tabled let's get a ruling! I personally haven't used it
 
Jiigzz

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Many people LOVE Fadogia man! I know Coop is a big fan of Fadogia... Fadogia has been tabled let's get a ruling! I personally haven't used it
I'd like to give the ingredient a try given that a product that contains it is called HCGenerate. I tend to avoid products that use hormonal based names but meh, be interesting to see what happens.
 
jbryand101b

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I'd like to give the ingredient a try given that a product that contains it is called I suck ballz. I tend to avoid products that use hormonal based names but meh, be interesting to see what happens.
Really?
 
bolt10

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Many people LOVE Fadogia man! I know Coop is a big fan of Fadogia... Fadogia has been tabled let's get a ruling! I personally haven't used it
On a purely anecdotal basis I love Fadogia. As far as libido and mood I think that was the top ingredient in that category for me (granted my youth I don't think that says too much).

I only ever used T-force and Bioforge Promax.
 
rob112

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On a purely anecdotal basis I love Fadogia. As far as libido and mood I think that was the top ingredient in that category for me (granted my youth I don't think that says too much).

I only ever used T-force and Bioforge Promax.
I've only used it I. Promax myself(a few times) and I liked the product a lot. The combo of that and forskolin made a very nice libido boosting, recomping, feel good supplement.
 
Spaniard

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Possiple discussion(thoughts/info) on Fadogia Agrestis.

Possible benefits:
Increase Testosterone levels.
Increase LH.
Restoring testicular fullness.
The only thing that needs to be remembered with test boosting products is that realistically the most benefits you're going to get from it is mood and libido boosts.

Strength and muscle mass gains will be minimal at best. Unless, it raises your T levels ridiculously high, which it's a natural product so...
 
Spaniard

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On a purely anecdotal basis I love Fadogia. As far as libido and mood I think that was the top ingredient in that category for me (granted my youth I don't think that says too much).

I only ever used T-force and Bioforge Promax.
There is another trusted vote for it.
 

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No, unless you have cognitive decline or mt disorders that require supraphysiological doses of creatine for phosphate donation and/or allosteric modulation of the NMDA receptor. I hate to say it but the examine.com authors are data miners...they don't know how to interpret it. Creatine has a saturating effect, so according to them, we can never take agmatine period if we want to boost cognitive function, even if our last creatine dose was 12 hours ago. Agmatine will block the NMDA receptor in a manner independent of creatine's allosterism, so there is no real antagonism, just independent effects
That's an over-simplification (I'm from Examine.com).

We said it does not go well with it because it *can* compete. By no means did we imply that they will counteract each other permanently. If you take them at the same time, there can be competition, but we don't exactly know how much would be wasted.

At the same time - our site has an open discussion. If you think something is wrong, tell us.
 
Montego1

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On a purely anecdotal basis I love Fadogia. As far as libido and mood I think that was the top ingredient in that category for me (granted my youth I don't think that says too much).

I only ever used T-force and Bioforge Promax.
Agreed here. Fadogia is solid.
 
RecompMan

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On a purely anecdotal basis I love Fadogia. As far as libido and mood I think that was the top ingredient in that category for me (granted my youth I don't think that says too much).

I only ever used T-force and Bioforge Promax.
I am using tforce with prime anabeta and testpowder just because I have it lol

It's been 3 days on all. 2 weeks on test powder and tforce
 
RecompMan

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That's an over-simplification (I'm from Examine.com).

We said it does not go well with it because it *can* compete. By no means did we imply that they will counteract each other permanently. If you take them at the same time, there can be competition, but we don't exactly know how much would be wasted.

At the same time - our site has an open discussion. If you think something is wrong, tell us.
Welcome to the boards then.
 
ELROCK

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The only thing that needs to be remembered with test boosting products is that realistically the most benefits you're going to get from it is mood and libido boosts.

Strength and muscle mass gains will be minimal at best. Unless, it raises your T levels ridiculously high, which it's a natural product so...
I get more out of fadogia Agrestis then libido and sense of wellness. I mainly get increased testicular fullness and testicular atrophy prevention along side my TRT. So I do feel their are added benefits to this ingredient.
 
ELROCK

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But definitely agree you won't gain any actual muscle mass by supplementing with fadogia.
 
Touey

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But definitely agree you won't gain any actual muscle mass by supplementing with fadogia.
Nor any nutraceutical test boosting
 
Spaniard

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That's an over-simplification (I'm from Examine.com).

We said it does not go well with it because it *can* compete. By no means did we imply that they will counteract each other permanently. If you take them at the same time, there can be competition, but we don't exactly know how much would be wasted.

At the same time - our site has an open discussion. If you think something is wrong, tell us.
Thank you very much for dropping in.
 

De__eB

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That's an over-simplification (I'm from Examine.com).

We said it does not go well with it because it *can* compete. By no means did we imply that they will counteract each other permanently. If you take them at the same time, there can be competition, but we don't exactly know how much would be wasted.

At the same time - our site has an open discussion. If you think something is wrong, tell us.
Welcome aboard, would be great to have your input on the forums!
 

De__eB

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Many people LOVE Fadogia man! I know Coop is a big fan of Fadogia... Fadogia has been tabled let's get a ruling! I personally haven't used it
About the only thing missing with Fadogia is published human data.

I'd like to see a better determination of what the active glycosides are and how they compare with anacyclus pyretheum as the two ingredients methods of action are theoretically similar.

But in theory and in anecdote Fadogia looks solid.
 
Spaniard

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Welcome aboard, would be great to have your input on the forums!
Agreed I frequent examine.com for TONS of information! I also direct people to your site often and definitely would not classify it as a "data mining" site.
 
Spaniard

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About the only thing missing with Fadogia is published human data.

I'd like to see a better determination of what the active glycosides are and how they compare with anacyclus pyretheum as the two ingredients methods of action are theoretically similar.

But in theory and in anecdote Fadogia looks solid.
I think I have only read one negative review on fadogia and the reviewer was not stable IMO. Literally, unstable...

Other than that the anecdotal feedback like you said has been incredible.
 
Touey

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poor coop bro is probably has thinking thrice or more before any posting for quotes out the woodwork to come haunting
 
aaronuconn

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Agreed I frequent examine.com for TONS of information! I also direct people to your site often and definitely would not classify it as a "data mining" site.
Agreed. Love the site layout and how easy it is to find info.
 
jbryand101b

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About the only thing missing with Fadogia is published human data.

I'd like to see a better determination of what the active glycosides are and how they compare with anacyclus pyretheum as the two ingredients methods of action are theoretically similar.

But in theory and in anecdote Fadogia looks solid.
I wish pct assist had fadogia
 
B5150

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Your advanced creatine discussion has just blown my advanced discussion mind!
 

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That's an over-simplification (I'm from Examine.com).

We said it does not go well with it because it *can* compete. By no means did we imply that they will counteract each other permanently. If you take them at the same time, there can be competition, but we don't exactly know how much would be wasted.

At the same time - our site has an open discussion. If you think something is wrong, tell us.
I'd contend that what is written in the "editor's note" about agmatine + creatine is a gross oversimplification. Agmatine taken with anything will reduce total NMDA signaling if given at the right dose. Comparing two studies done in a test tube is indeed quite irrelevant when you consider how NMDA signaling actually works in vivo (which involves changes a host of preceding events to make it even possible).

You can follow along here if you want to gather edits for your ingredients. You have a great site by the way, regardless of our disagreement here. Putting things in physiological context is the key.
 
jbryand101b

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Your advanced creatine discussion has just blown my advanced discussion mind!
Huh. Cool.

[video=youtube;cZh105_r2Qk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZh105_r2Qk&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DcZh 105_r2Qk&nomobile=1[/video]
 
jbryand101b

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I'd contend that what is written in the "editor's note" about agmatine + creatine is a gross oversimplification. Agmatine taken with anything will reduce total NMDA signaling if given at the right dose. Comparing two studies done in a test tube is indeed quite irrelevant when you consider how NMDA signaling actually works in vivo (which involves changes a host of preceding events to make it even possible).

You can follow along here if you want to gather edits for your ingredients. You have a great site by the way, regardless of our disagreement here. Putting things in physiological context is the key.
Awsome!
 
Spaniard

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I'd contend that what is written in the "editor's note" about agmatine + creatine is a gross oversimplification. Agmatine taken with anything will reduce total NMDA signaling if given at the right dose. Comparing two studies done in a test tube is indeed quite irrelevant when you consider how NMDA signaling actually works in vivo (which involves changes a host of preceding events to make it even possible).

You can follow along here if you want to gather edits for your ingredients. You have a great site by the way, regardless of our disagreement here. Putting things in physiological context is the key.
So just to get this straight the NMDA effects are due to creatine saturation and not acute dosing? I think that's where the misunderstanding was. I will look more into it but to be completely honest I've never paid attention to whether the cognitive benefits were seen in an acute setting or over a period of time (saturation), which is probably where I went wrong.

Almost off these pain killers and back to normal posting abilities lol
 
Spaniard

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Your advanced creatine discussion has just blown my advanced discussion mind!
Surely you mean our layman's term discussion just blew your advanced discussion mind.

Mind blown!
 
Synapsin

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If you were considering using it instead of NaHCO3 (preworkout), here is something to consider:http://suppversity.blogspot.com/search?q=potassium+bicarbonate
From a prior post of mine, "It's been studied a lot, and while studies show it working, they're pretty much all wrong on why. Na+ is what you really want to consider when referring to exercise, not HCO3 (increase in extracellular potassium ions and intracellular sodium ions)...Na+ makes the osmotic and ionic change less severe. It just so happens that sodium ions have their most maximal effect when administrated with bicarbonate ions."
 

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So just to get this straight the NMDA effects are due to creatine saturation and not acute dosing? I think that's where the misunderstanding was. I will look more into it but to be completely honest I've never paid attention to whether the cognitive benefits were seen in an acute setting or over a period of time (saturation), which is probably where I went wrong.

Almost off these pain killers and back to normal posting abilities lol
The studies either bathed neurons in vivo for a set period of time or directly injected the neurons/neuronal tissue with creatine. Due to creatine's rapid elimination kinetics, it's safe to say any cognitive benefit would be yielded from prolonged use.

Agmatine also has a CNS retention of at least 24 (more likely 50+) hours in primates so that would exclude creatine use at any point in the next 2-3 days...
 
Spaniard

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The studies either bathed neurons in vivo for a set period of time or directly injected the neurons/neuronal tissue with creatine. Due to creatine's rapid elimination kinetics, it's safe to say any cognitive benefit would be yielded from prolonged use.

Agmatine also has a CNS retention of at least 24 (more likely 50+) hours in primates so that would exclude creatine use at any point in the next 2-3 days...
Thanks man
 

mr.cooper69

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Thanks man
Np bro. One final point to consider is that creatine enters the brain via a transporter that is operating at near-saturation kinetics at rest (no creatine supplementation). So getting supraphysiological amounts of creatine into the brain may prove difficult in vivo
 

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