Primordial Performance raided by FDA

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    Quote Originally Posted by vidapreta View Post
    All I carry with me is my Love Gun..

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    Kind of takes Vs statement of emptying it on your face to another dimension! Lmao
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZMIDLYF View Post
    Kind of takes Vs statement of emptying it on your face to another dimension! Lmao
    Another dimension, but I find it just as effective....lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce

    Damn V I could tell by your avatar I wasn't going to pick a fight with you, now I'm definitely not stepping your way in anger
    Lol, naw I'm a nice guy man...

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    Reading this thread as I try to stay awake in fda regulations. Ironic.
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    So based on one of the points Eric stated that the FDA made to him regarding their justification for the raid/seizure of products, are DHEA isomers such as 1-DHEA and 19-nor-DHEA now coming under fire from the FDA? Even though they haven't "announced" anything yet, is this likely an indication that they plan to include those compounds in the next list of banned PH's/steroids?
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    I realize this is off topic, but no one else here has been overly concerned with that so I'm going to ask, and given the fact that Patrick Arnold was following this thread... Has anyone else had any trouble getting their order from Prototype Nutrition? I ordered some E-spray last week and the order is still processing and customer service isn't returning my e-mail inquiries about why.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freepress View Post
    I realize this is off topic, but no one else here has been overly concerned with that so I'm going to ask, and given the fact that Patrick Arnold was following this thread... Has anyone else had any trouble getting their order from Prototype Nutrition? I ordered some E-spray last week and the order is still processing and customer service isn't returning my e-mail inquiries about why.

    E and 11 are temporarily discontinued
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    E and 11 are temporarily discontinued
    Did the decision to discontinue them have anything to do with PP getting raided? Also, just out of curiosity, do you think the FDA is going to attempt to ban the DHEA isomers?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpicedCider View Post
    Did the decision to discontinue them have anything to do with PP getting raided? Also, just out of curiosity, do you think the FDA is going to attempt to ban the DHEA isomers?
    I never know what is going to happen
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    E and 11 are temporarily discontinued
    Thanks, Patrick. Customer service replied to me this afternoon and gave me the answers I needed.
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    lolololololol, I can't help but to not feel sorry for this company. Eric, this is what happened when you continuously lie and bs about your products. I knew this would happened when that andro series garbage came out, I truly feel sorry for all the individuals who you have ripped off thinking it would be even comparable to test. Also, karma is a bitch, funny how you had all your little reps going around spewing garbage about other companies, writing fake reviews, spamming all the boards with your junk, and pushing mediocre and over-priced junk onto people's throat. I still remember some of your garbage reps claiming pct was not needed for tren and sd, and to use the PP's TRS for pct. Also, there was this fat and overweight rep that looked like he never touched a single weight in his life, this dude was talking about doing running andro lean to get cut, lol. What a joke.
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    You went in ^^ lol
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    This is sad, yet indicative of the current "Big Brother" mentality, with big gov't over-stepping their bounds.

    I agree the claims were borderline at best, yet as a PH manufacturer - I thought PP went WAY out of their way to create a superior product with a better safety profile. I mean, does anyone remember a certain company selling a FIFTY mg Methyl-1test product, as the 2005 ban loomed? I do. Talk about irresponsible.

    And they're still in business...

    Great job FDA/DEA. Lord knows you once again "saved our children" and spent our tax dollars wisely. I guess when you're a miserable failure in going after Bonds/Clemens etc, you need to salvage your ego/career by going after someone who doesn't have the means to fight back...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big3upgrade View Post
    lolololololol, I can't help but to not feel sorry for this company. Eric, this is what happened when you continuously lie and bs about your products. I knew this would happened when that andro series garbage came out, I truly feel sorry for all the individuals who you have ripped off thinking it would be even comparable to test. Also, karma is a bitch, funny how you had all your little reps going around spewing garbage about other companies, writing fake reviews, spamming all the boards with your junk, and pushing mediocre and over-priced junk onto people's throat. I still remember some of your garbage reps claiming pct was not needed for tren and sd, and to use the PP's TRS for pct. Also, there was this fat and overweight rep that looked like he never touched a single weight in his life, this dude was talking about doing running andro lean to get cut, lol. What a joke.
    I don't ever recall any PP rep claiming you didn't need a PCT for Tren and SD. I'm calling BS on you. No company has been more above board and explanatory about the need for PCT than PP. And their products, while expensive, did work. There are countless logs with photographs and an army of dedicated customers who would blow your straw man argument into oblivion.

    If you didn't like the company, that's fine. But don't be a prick and make a bunch of bogus claims in the face of someone else's misfortune. It doesn't speak well of your character.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freepress

    I don't ever recall any PP rep claiming you didn't need a PCT for Tren and SD. I'm calling BS on you. No company has been more above board and explanatory about the need for PCT than PP. And their products, while expensive, did work. There are countless logs with photographs and an army of dedicated customers who would blow your straw man argument into oblivion.

    If you didn't like the company, that's fine. But don't be a prick and make a bunch of bogus claims in the face of someone else's misfortune. It doesn't speak well of your character.
    I think what he meant was no use of a serm or any other pct. That the Trs pct was always sufficient enough and always pimped out.
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    I used TRS on numerous occasions, sometimes in conjunction with a SERM and sometimes without. I used TRS for a 1-T transdermal cycle and recovered fine. Ran it again successfully with no SERM after doing 1-T LV and AndroHard and was fine. I also did an Epi/Dermacrine cycle and recovered with just the TRS.

    After an Ultradrol cycle I decided to do TRS with toremifene. My last cycle I also used a SERM.

    Granted, I'm a believer in SERMs, but short duration cycles of PHs would be fine for most folks with just the TRS. Everyone is different, though. Even a SERM is no guarantee. This is an adults only game where nothing is certain.
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    if thier products weren't 6x overpriced id be upset as well
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside Backer
    if thier products weren't 6x overpriced id be upset as well
    Price point or not, its still a shame to see such an innovative company fold.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FL3X MAGNUM View Post
    Price point or not, its still a shame to see such an innovative company fold.
    Especially with the future plans they had in store for new product

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    I'm surprised nobody else has pondered the farther-reaching implications of all this. Personally, I think it's a sign that the FDA is (unfortunately) planning to ban the DHEA isomers -- especially 1-DHEA and 19-nor-DHEA.
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    So get rid of all the safe products....nice lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside Backer View Post
    if thier products weren't 6x overpriced id be upset as well
    it was expensive to get the product for them as well. i have a friend who works for a major online supplement store but the warehouse is 5 minutes away from me and he told me what the cost was and sure they made profit, but not as much as you would think. androfactory products are just as expensive when you break it down by dose and servings...etc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big3upgrade View Post
    lolololololol, I can't help but to not feel sorry for this company. Eric, this is what happened when you continuously lie and bs about your products. I knew this would happened when that andro series garbage came out, I truly feel sorry for all the individuals who you have ripped off thinking it would be even comparable to test. Also, karma is a bitch, funny how you had all your little reps going around spewing garbage about other companies, writing fake reviews, spamming all the boards with your junk, and pushing mediocre and over-priced junk onto people's throat. I still remember some of your garbage reps claiming pct was not needed for tren and sd, and to use the PP's TRS for pct. Also, there was this fat and overweight rep that looked like he never touched a single weight in his life, this dude was talking about doing running andro lean to get cut, lol. What a joke.
    overpriced or not I gained a solid 20 + lbs off v2 andromass. If I could afford it I would be constantly taking it. Stuff works.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpicedCider View Post
    I'm surprised nobody else has pondered the farther-reaching implications of all this. Personally, I think it's a sign that the FDA is (unfortunately) planning to ban the DHEA isomers -- especially 1-DHEA and 19-nor-DHEA.
    But how can you raid on something that is not yet illegal? There is no grounds...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    But how can you raid on something that is not yet illegal? There is no grounds...
    im sure it would have been under the grounds of "suspicion of containing prohibited/banned substances with intent to sell" especially concerning the transdermals as they are only legal as a cosmetic product, and yet in this case being consumed and marketed as a dietary supplement. However, that being said a warning letter or cease & desist letter should have been issued first. A full blown "drug-house" style raid is usually only served in the more extreme cases and after concrete evidence has been compiled. Then again, thanks to Bush you yanks signed over all rights in the name of freedom so maybe the feds can do what they want now, and im sure in a few years time Gillard or whoever else noone voted for will do the same thing to us Aussies.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkubaSteve89 View Post
    im sure it would have been under the grounds of "suspicion of containing prohibited/banned substances with intent to sell" especially concerning the transdermals as they are only legal as a cosmetic product, and yet in this case being consumed and marketed as a dietary supplement. However, that being said a warning letter or cease & desist letter should have been issued first. A full blown "drug-house" style raid is usually only served in the more extreme cases and after concrete evidence has been compiled. Then again, thanks to Bush you yanks signed over all rights in the name of freedom so maybe the feds can do what they want now, and im sure in a few years time Gillard or whoever else noone voted for will do the same thing to us Aussies.....
    Yeah but those grounds are not related to the selling of DHEA isomers; anyway, Eric has already speculated on what the raid was all about on the PP forum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    But how can you raid on something that is not yet illegal? There is no grounds...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Yeah but those grounds are not related to the selling of DHEA isomers; anyway, Eric has already speculated on what the raid was all about on the PP forum.

    what did he say?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    what did he say?

    Interested as well
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    what did he say?
    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel0022 View Post
    Interested as well
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big3upgrade View Post
    lolololololol, I can't help but to not feel sorry for this company. Eric, this is what happened when you continuously lie and bs about your products. I knew this would happened when that andro series garbage came out, I truly feel sorry for all the individuals who you have ripped off thinking it would be even comparable to test. Also, karma is a bitch, funny how you had all your little reps going around spewing garbage about other companies, writing fake reviews, spamming all the boards with your junk, and pushing mediocre and over-priced junk onto people's throat. I still remember some of your garbage reps claiming pct was not needed for tren and sd, and to use the PP's TRS for pct. Also, there was this fat and overweight rep that looked like he never touched a single weight in his life, this dude was talking about doing running andro lean to get cut, lol. What a joke.
    BB.com leaking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freepress View Post
    I used TRS on numerous occasions, sometimes in conjunction with a SERM and sometimes without. I used TRS for a 1-T transdermal cycle and recovered fine. Ran it again successfully with no SERM after doing 1-T LV and AndroHard and was fine. I also did an Epi/Dermacrine cycle and recovered with just the TRS.

    After an Ultradrol cycle I decided to do TRS with toremifene. My last cycle I also used a SERM.

    Granted, I'm a believer in SERMs, but short duration cycles of PHs would be fine for most folks with just the TRS. Everyone is different, though. Even a SERM is no guarantee. This is an adults only game where nothing is certain.
    He is a troll, don't waste your breath.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside Backer View Post
    if thier products weren't 6x overpriced id be upset as well
    I know, I wish we were just another blend in prob blend company.

    Quote Originally Posted by fightbackhxc View Post
    overpriced or not I gained a solid 20 + lbs off v2 andromass. If I could afford it I would be constantly taking it. Stuff works.
    But bro, it is just walmart DHEA. 20lbs must be placebo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    But how can you raid on something that is not yet illegal? There is no grounds...
    There was alot that went into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkubaSteve89 View Post
    im sure it would have been under the grounds of "suspicion of containing prohibited/banned substances with intent to sell" especially concerning the transdermals as they are only legal as a cosmetic product, and yet in this case being consumed and marketed as a dietary supplement. However, that being said a warning letter or cease & desist letter should have been issued first. A full blown "drug-house" style raid is usually only served in the more extreme cases and after concrete evidence has been compiled. Then again, thanks to Bush you yanks signed over all rights in the name of freedom so maybe the feds can do what they want now, and im sure in a few years time Gillard or whoever else noone voted for will do the same thing to us Aussies.....

    It seemed alot of weight was on us selling SD and Tren.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    what did he say?
    Sorry Patrick, I thought I sent this to you in one of our PMs, but might have forgotten:


    Customers (and creditors),

    Forgive my delayed announcement on our business situation. Since the FDA raid Tuesday morning, I've been wrapped up in pressing matters, which I will explain below. I'm sitting here on minimal sleep, but will try to address this completely.

    The facts are as follows -

    The FDA raided our office/warehouse building in Portland OR at about 9:00am on Oct 30th. They had a warrant for seizure of the following -

    1. AndroHard, AndroDrive, AndroMass, AndroLean, AndroBulk, AndroEnhance, Sustain Alpha gel, and DermaTherm gel. Including all raw materials for these products.
    2. All computers, digital storage devices, documents from 2006 until current.


    There were about 30 armed FDA agents who entered through the front and back of the building with guns drawn. A majority of them were from LA. We have no idea why they had guns. No employees at our office have any history of violence or criminal history.

    I received a call about the raid, and immediately went to the office. I asked to speak to the head agent(s), who were Jeff Novitzky and Hilary Rickher. Against the advice of others, I choose to speak to them without an attorney. I handed them our DSHEA statement, and sat down and allowed them to question me for about 2 hours regarding the formulation, marketing, and manufacturing of our products. They did not detain me.

    As of now, the affidavit for the warrant is sealed, so I am not entirely sure of the scope for the warrant. Based on the agents questions for me and other employees, here are the major reasons we were targeted -

    1. TREN & Superdrone: The FDA is aware that we sold Tren in 2009 and superdrone in 2010 for a very short period of time. This appears to be the most damning evidence. We sold these products despite FDA warning that they may be unsafe. We deemed these products suitable for sale given clear warning to consumers about potential side effects. As Primordial later determined in 2010, these hormones are not naturally occurring in the food supply, and thus not legal to sell as dietary supplements. Therefore, we discontinued the all unnatural steroid hormones by the end of 2010.
    2. Secret ingredients: The FDA questioned our production manager, asking about any "secret ingredients" added to our products, so they seem to believe we add illegal or unlisted substances to our products. Apparently the FDA has also invested in rigorous analytical testing of our products. They have been unable to find any "secret ingredients" in the product from the limited feedback Ive received, nor will they ever find any evidence of this. What's on the label is what we put into the product.
    3. Claims: Related to the AndroSeries products, the FDA had questions related to our claims of "AndroSeries equivalent to injectable testosterone." This was the work of my colorful marketing side, and bio-equivalency calculations I made. According to the FDA this is a drug claim, and thus the FDA considers AndroSeries marketed as an unapproved new drug because of this claim. Most companies get warning letters about claims, but we never received any communication from the FDA until the raid.
    4. Ingredients: The FDA also seems to believe the AndroSeries products are "adulterated" because the ingredients are not present in the food supply, or atleast, are not legal dietary ingredients. We have evidence that these hormones are legal dietary ingredients, are naturally occurring in food, are present in our bodies, and are natural human metabolites of DHEA (which is also a legal dietary ingredient). The FDA also believes that our doses are excessive, and not proven to be safe. We have evidence to show that our doses are very safe according to our human case studies.
    5. Topicals: They questioned the legal definition of the topical gel products. They seemed to believe we were selling them as dietary supplements. I informed them that they are sold as cosmetic products. The reason for this products being seized remains in question.
    6. GMP, ingredient origin, and other things: They also commented that synthetically manufactured ingredients (our hormones) are not dietary supplements, although 80% of the dietary supplement market comes from synthetically manufactured vitamins, amino-acids, etc. The FDA has also made accusations that our dose of active ingredients has been "inconsistent" between our batches. I am not sure of the origin of this claim. They also pointed out that our production workers were not wearing masks, and that we do not have a temperature controlled facility. (GMP requirements apparently)


    Admittedly, we have struggled to meet GMP guidelines since they became a requirement in June 2010. We started as a home based company in 2006 which was entirely legal until 2010. We moved to 5000 sq ft facility in 2009, and hired laboratory staff to make efforts to meet GMP requirements. Meeting the multi-point analytical requirements, paper documentation, stability testing, etc is extremely expensive. We made a good faith effort to meet these requirements as much as our finances could afford.

    As a side note, I feel empathy for the small american start-up who wants to produce and sell a dietary supplement. The initial minimum investment in releasing a new product is near $50,000 if all GMP guidelines are rigorously followed. This is in addition to the multi-million dollar facility and equipment required to test, analyze, verify, scan, pack, and manufacture dietary supplements. The US government needs de-regulation here, especially in this economy.

    Speaking of the economy, the FDA must have over $2,000,000 budgeted for the investigation of Primordial Performance and its products. (as can be gleaned from the number of agents and depth of the investigation) This seems like a tremendous waste of tax payer dollars, especially when the FDA could have policed the situation with a simple warning letter.

    Where does this leave Primordial products?

    The FDA seized our inventory as evidence based on its opinion that these products are misbranded and adulterated. The products are not controlled substances, so they are not illegal to be in possession of. However the FDA has made it clear they don't want us to distribute them.

    If you are selling our products, I would advise against that, but there doesn't appear to be any legal issue with possessing or consuming the products as an individual.

    What happens now?

    The FDA will now review our 5+ years of company records. They aren't going to find anything more than what they already know. I really have no idea if they are going to press criminal charges, or if this will all be settled out of court. At this point there have been no criminal charges or arrests.

    Again, the affidavit is sealed, so I am unable to see the primary evidence or reason for the seizure. As with any seizure, there is not much you can do to prevent the items from being seized, and any attempt to get the items back requires a claim to be filed, attorneys, with lengthy and expensive legal battles. The US court system does not move quickly even if you really want your Andro back.

    Even if we prevail in court, and the products are deemed to be legal and safe dietary supplements, this process could take years and hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees. So if we win, we still loose.

    Although we don't have final numbers, it is estimated that the FDA seized up to $500,000k in inventory, valued at over $1,000,000 in revenue.

    From bad to worse

    People seem to assume we have millions in the bank, but it couldn't be further from the truth.

    Primordial has been struggling financially for the past several years. We have about $300,000 in dept with various suppliers and creditors. Most of our business trouble was related to excessive overhead, inefficient operations, and excessive employee turnover. Trying to fix these issues in a company is like trying to fix an engine while its running. Primordial has only had one slightly profitable year in the 6 years we've been in business. We've essentially operated on a very tight cash flow for the past 3 years. None of the investors or shareholders have ever made any financial gain from Primordial, except for my average $60,000/yr salary.

    Since AndroSeries was about 80% of our revenue, and its been cut, it essentially cuts us at the jugular. Before the FDA stepped in, we had very little money in the bank, but a decent inventory to keep us in business. Now we have no money, no credit, and no inventory. It means doors closed for us.

    What made our fall even more abrupt, was the fact that we had been behind on rent payments. We had a strict repayment plan to avoid eviction, but we wont be able to follow through on those payments now. We will likely be getting locked out of our building by Nov 7th. Because of this we have allocated all resources to clearing the building.

    The final days

    As you can see, there won't be much left of Primordial as a company by the end of this month. Most employees have been laid off and the final remaining inventory is being sold off until it is gone. We will continue shipping our last few products from a fulfillment house. We expect to be sold out of all products by the end of Nov. When this happens, we will be taking the site down and replacing it with a simple blog to keep conversations going about the status of this case.

    Our remote employee Jered will continue to assist with customer service as we wind down.

    I might walk away with enough to live on for a couple months after all payroll and moving expenses are paid. I will probably be moving back to Eugene with my mother to save money and figure out what my next move will be.

    Am I going to fight the FDA?

    In many ways, I'm eager to have my day of reckoning with the FDA. This story deserves a good ending. Is our position on the legal status of these ingredients strong enough to hold up in court? How about our safety data? Or our diligent effort to legitimize a safe and legal dietary steroid supplement?

    Although I'm still recovering from a major ass kicking, the story of David and Goliath inspires me. I've always like fighting hardest when I've been the underdog. It's FDA's next move, so we will just have to see what happens.

    Epilogue

    Since I was 16 I've invested my life in the study, research, and development of hormone products. I did it for the fun of it. Its always been my personal passion to create something that could produce life changing results for people. The fact that we weren't making any profit at PP really didn't matter to me. The reward was the unsolicited letters of gratification from guys who discovered a greater life with our products. I loved creating hormone products, guys love using them, and it was a great time.

    I hadn't been around much for the past 12 months. I've been quite captivated in my most recent work. I was confined in my small studio apartment constructing a plan for my next business. It was a complete male hormone solution, much evolved from the current Primordial platform. I'm not sure if the heart of this embryo is still beating, but I'm searching.

    I thank those who stood by until the very end here at the office, and those customers who maintained great loyalty over the years. I know if you could many of you would suit up and charge into battle. Maybe our day to rally will come.

    Respectfully,

    -Eric Potratz
    President & Founder
    http://www.primordialperformance.com...ss-future.html
    Just inject.
    Facebook:
    www.facebook.com/heretostudy
  36. Sunz out, Gunz out...
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    Damn man... Tough story to read.
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    if he never touched that SD and tren then maybe none of this would have ever happened. shame
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    if he never touched that SD and tren then maybe none of this would have ever happened. shame
    He may not have made the capital for the new products without it...
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    Quote Originally Posted by testosteronet View Post
    He may not have made the capital for the new products without it...
    But now he has no products at all

    It was a risk he took I suppose
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    Agreed
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