Post workout/Recovery?

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    Post workout/Recovery?


    I am just wondering what people use for post workout/recovery..protein, glutimen.?.. whatever you use. In the learning stages of what is out here for product and like to see everyones picks and why.

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    This is one of those "holy war" style questions, should be fun to hear the responses.
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    I agree... I mean I have done the same thing for PWO but I have tried several and know which ones I like..but I love to hear what others think..and why they think they way or if they can back it up with something.
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    20g MAP (PeptoPro)
    50g WMS
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    ^^^^this is good, ill do 25g map, some beta alanine and 10g ibcaa(i cant stand more)

    my favorite tho is universal torrent, especially the orange.....for taste, quality, and results (im thicker after i get through a tub, its been a staple, util lately iv gone with the primordial stuff for a change)
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    good post. i keep it simple by my iso mass. it has all i need for recovery
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    whole foods or a whey protein shake with carbs of your choice.

    BTW, people still use WMS? Has there been any new research that recently emerged? Last I checked, when TrueProtein was addressed regarding this matter they were lacking valid responses.

    Waxy Maize insulin response?
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    Quote Originally Posted by purebred View Post
    whole foods or a whey protein shake with carbs of your choice.

    BTW, people still use WMS? Has there been any new research that recently emerged? Last I checked, when TrueProtein was addressed regarding this matter they were lacking valid responses.

    Waxy Maize insulin response?
    Very interesting post. First, Ive heard anyone question the effectiveness of WM.

    My pwo shake is:
    2 Scoops ON Whey (My understanding is whey has the fastest bioavailability)
    2 Scoops ON Glycomaize (I thought/think it boosts insulin which enhances absortion)
    2 Scoops Dymatize Elite Recoup Shake (BCAA'S & Glutamine)

    I have the contents of my shake in my gymbag for immediate pwo consumption.
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    2 scoops MAP
    1 serving of the powdered Gatorade (pure dextrose kind) OR a Banana
    2g Beta Alanine
    5g Creapure

    That's what I currently use and I'll be adding in Protocol 15min. before that shortly.
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    Protein and carbs. Right now I'm doing 3 scoops of Dymatize isolate and 1-2 scoops Labrada Power Carb.
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    Whey, oats, bcaa, creatine
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjameskjf View Post
    Protein and carbs. Right now I'm doing 3 scoops of Dymatize isolate and 1-2 scoops Labrada Power Carb.
    as in approx. 75g protein in one sitting?
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    2 scoops USP Modern BCAA, 1 Scoop Infinite Labs Massport. Then a meal after going home and a shower.
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    Quote Originally Posted by purebred View Post
    as in approx. 75g protein in one sitting?
    yep. Here's proof it works.


    c/p by Martin Berkhan:
    Whenever you hear something really crazy you need to ask yourself if it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. It's a great way to quickly determine if something may be valid or if it's more likely a steaming pile of horse****. This myth is a great example of the latter. Do you think we would be here today if our bodies could only make use of 30 grams of protein per meal?

    The simple truth is that more protein just takes a longer time to digest and be utilized. For some concrete numbers, digestion of a standard meal is still incomplete after five hours. Amino acids are still being released into your bloodstream and absorbed into muscles. You are still "anabolic." This is a fairly standard "Average Joe"-meal: 600 kcal, 75 g carbs, 37 g protein and 17 g fat. Best of all? This was after eating pizza, a refined food that should be quickly absorbed relatively speaking.

    Think about this for a second. How long do you think a big steak, with double the protein intake of the above example, and a big pile of veggies would last you? More than 10 hours, that's for sure. Meal composition plays an important role in absorption speed, especially when it comes to amino acids. Type of protein, fiber, carbohydrates and prior meals eaten all affect how long you'll have amino acids released and being taken up by tissues after meals.


    Origin of the myth:

    I think this "30 grams of protein"-nonsense started to circulate after a classic study from 1997 by Boirie and colleagues. "Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion" was the first study to quantify the absorption rate of whey and casein protein and gave birth to the concept of fast and slow protein. After that, whey protein came to be known for it's ability to rapidly elevate amino acids in the blood stream and casein for it's ability to create a sustained release of amino acids. Whey was anabolic and casein anti-catabolic.

    Given that 30 grams of whey protein was absorbed within 3-4 hours, I guess some people believed that meant 30 grams of protein can only be used in one sitting. Or that you had to eat every 3-4 hours to stay "anabolic." Unfortunately, people missed a few facts that made these findings irrelevant to real-world scenarios. First of all, this study looked at the absorption rate of whey protein in the fasted state. On it's own, and with no meals eaten beforehand, 30 grams of whey protein is absorbed within a mere 3-4 hours. With meals eaten earlier in the day, or if you'd consume a whey shake after a meal, absorption would be much slower.

    Second of all, whey protein is the fastest protein of all and digests at 10 g/hour. Casein is much slower; in Boirie's study, the casein protein was still being absorbed when they stopped the experiment 7 hours later. Most whole food proteins are absorbed at a rate of 3-6 grams an hour. Add other macronutrients to that and they'll take longer.



    Here's another article that addresses this subject head on by well-renowned Alan Aragon. http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-n...a-single-meal/



    References:
    -http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10331398

    -http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9405716

    -Bilsborough S, Mann N. A review of issues of dietary protein intake in humans. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006 Apr;16(2):129-52.

    -Stote KS, et al. A controlled trial of reduced meal frequency without caloric restriction in healthy, normal-weight, middle-aged adults. Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Apr;85(4):981-8.
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    This is what I've been doing, works well for me. Post workout nutrition only fyi, preworkout is an entire other topic I feel.

    1 scoop MAP, 3 scoops ibcaa's, 5g creatine mono(creapure), 3g beta alanine, 1 scoop gatorade powder, 1 scoop waxy maize. I wait about 30 minutes then I will do a whey(dymatize isolate) 1.5 scoops with 1.5 cups skim milk/chocolate milk (whatever I can steal from work) and complex carbs about 50g or so. Works well for me and is more economical for me than dosing the MAP higher, I'm not against the idea, but to me its more cost effective this way.
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    during workout
    10g arginine
    10g bcaa
    1 scoop maltodextrin

    10g bcaa
    40g whey
    5g creatine
    1000mg vit c
    1 scoop maltodextrin approx 60-80 grams of carbs

    1 hour later MEALTIME
    4 eggs 4 egg whites
    1 chicken breast/fish/steak
    1 cup brown rice
    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysgaining View Post
    I've also done fasting and doseing and felt grealt anabolicness , deffint hunger but I'm stronger than that keep full and vascular and strength gose up
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/177245-swollen87s-training-log.html
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    intra workout 3 tablespoons of powdered gatorade (42g carbs) with 10+ grams aminos
    post workout 50 grams of protein and 25g carbs sipped over 30 minutes
    *ive always been a fan of fasted workout until recently when my nutrition teacher swears by carbs intra workout and i tried it and it boosted my endurance/recovery and i get a lot better pumps, better than solid food pre workout when ive tried it

    that above article about absorption rates intrigue me and i definetly need to do more research on it
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    I get the recovery ball rolling with my Pre-workout wich is: MAP 4 Scoops, Ibcaa's 10 grams, Creapure 5 grams, Beta-Alanine 2 grams, added vitaberry for antioxidants and flavor. Ill take some ALA and start drinking this 20 minuts before the gym and finish it right before the half way mark into the workout.

    Post workout ill go as high as 25 grams of ibcaa's, beta-alanine 2 grams, Creapure 5 grams, and now ive started to add 20 grams of MAP. Ill also take ALA to maximize insulin release. Carbs? depends on wether im concerned with losing bodyfat or not. Skim milk is actually one of my favorite carbs post workout, wich ill drink seperatly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnubs View Post
    intra workout 3 tablespoons of powdered gatorade (42g carbs) with 10+ grams aminos
    post workout 50 grams of protein and 25g carbs sipped over 30 minutes
    *ive always been a fan of fasted workout until recently when my nutrition teacher swears by carbs intra workout and i tried it and it boosted my endurance/recovery and i get a lot better pumps, better than solid food pre workout when ive tried it

    that above article about absorption rates intrigue me and i definetly need to do more research on it
    same here, i may follow your lead
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    Great read and tons of great info in here.. So glad I asked this question. I am here to learn so why not ask what may seem like very simplistic questions to get everyones input and ideas on it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by sking6464 View Post
    same here, i may follow your lead
    its one of those "must try" things. my pumps are better off gatorade than pretty much any pre workout ive tried. plus carbs are protein sparing, they help recovery via faster glycogen replacement post workout, blunt the cortisol spike post workout and taste much better than water haha
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    Powerade, gatorade are good. Dextrose powder is too. I would love that mixed with aminos during training.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnubs View Post
    its one of those "must try" things. my pumps are better off gatorade than pretty much any pre workout ive tried. plus carbs are protein sparing, they help recovery via faster glycogen replacement post workout, blunt the cortisol spike post workout and taste much better than water haha
    threw a bit of gatorade into my map/ba/ibcaa concoction prewo, and post.....too early to tell except it imporved the taste alot....i cant handle more than 10g bcaa or else the stuff is rank....the gatorade helped, even at a tbsp
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    isolate protein and a big meal with tons of carbs
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    Anyone use Dark Matter by MHP? If so, what are your thoughts? I have a bunch of samples, but haven't gotten around to using them yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sking6464 View Post
    threw a bit of gatorade into my map/ba/ibcaa concoction prewo, and post.....too early to tell except it imporved the taste alot....i cant handle more than 10g bcaa or else the stuff is rank....the gatorade helped, even at a tbsp
    try three tablespoons worth. i mixed it with my modern bcaas and the flavor is nothing short of amazing
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjameskjf View Post
    yep. Here's proof it works.


    c/p by Martin Berkhan:
    Whenever you hear something really crazy you need to ask yourself if it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. It's a great way to quickly determine if something may be valid or if it's more likely a steaming pile of horse****. This myth is a great example of the latter. Do you think we would be here today if our bodies could only make use of 30 grams of protein per meal?

    The simple truth is that more protein just takes a longer time to digest and be utilized. For some concrete numbers, digestion of a standard meal is still incomplete after five hours. Amino acids are still being released into your bloodstream and absorbed into muscles. You are still "anabolic." This is a fairly standard "Average Joe"-meal: 600 kcal, 75 g carbs, 37 g protein and 17 g fat. Best of all? This was after eating pizza, a refined food that should be quickly absorbed relatively speaking.

    Think about this for a second. How long do you think a big steak, with double the protein intake of the above example, and a big pile of veggies would last you? More than 10 hours, that's for sure. Meal composition plays an important role in absorption speed, especially when it comes to amino acids. Type of protein, fiber, carbohydrates and prior meals eaten all affect how long you'll have amino acids released and being taken up by tissues after meals.


    Origin of the myth:

    I think this "30 grams of protein"-nonsense started to circulate after a classic study from 1997 by Boirie and colleagues. "Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion" was the first study to quantify the absorption rate of whey and casein protein and gave birth to the concept of fast and slow protein. After that, whey protein came to be known for it's ability to rapidly elevate amino acids in the blood stream and casein for it's ability to create a sustained release of amino acids. Whey was anabolic and casein anti-catabolic.

    Given that 30 grams of whey protein was absorbed within 3-4 hours, I guess some people believed that meant 30 grams of protein can only be used in one sitting. Or that you had to eat every 3-4 hours to stay "anabolic." Unfortunately, people missed a few facts that made these findings irrelevant to real-world scenarios. First of all, this study looked at the absorption rate of whey protein in the fasted state. On it's own, and with no meals eaten beforehand, 30 grams of whey protein is absorbed within a mere 3-4 hours. With meals eaten earlier in the day, or if you'd consume a whey shake after a meal, absorption would be much slower.

    Second of all, whey protein is the fastest protein of all and digests at 10 g/hour. Casein is much slower; in Boirie's study, the casein protein was still being absorbed when they stopped the experiment 7 hours later. Most whole food proteins are absorbed at a rate of 3-6 grams an hour. Add other macronutrients to that and they'll take longer.



    Here's another article that addresses this subject head on by well-renowned Alan Aragon. http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-n...a-single-meal/



    References:
    -http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10331398

    -http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9405716

    -Bilsborough S, Mann N. A review of issues of dietary protein intake in humans. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006 Apr;16(2):129-52.

    -Stote KS, et al. A controlled trial of reduced meal frequency without caloric restriction in healthy, normal-weight, middle-aged adults. Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Apr;85(4):981-8.
    To reinforce your post:

    consider all of this "The body can only use X grams per Y" as a lot of nonsense. First and foremost, it makes no evolutionary sense (how I've been looking at a lot of physiological processes lately). That is, our ancestors did not eat protein in small amounts throughout the day. Yet, anthropological studies show that they had more muscle and bone mass than most of us. Rather, they were more likely to eat a ton of protein after a kill, and whatever amount they got from vegetables and such the rest of the time. Massive protein intakes at once were more likely the norm during 99% of our evolution than not. This means that our guts evolved to handle it. In addition, when you start looking at digestion and such, you see exactly that: even with massive protein loads (I vaguely recall they've looked at like 1.5 g/kg of beef all at once), digestion still stays very high (on average 90-95% for animal proteins meaning you're losing at most 10 grams of protein/100 grams ingested). The body can digest/absorb pretty much anything you throw at it. You won’t be pooping protein if you eat 35 grams at a sitting, is what I'm saying.

    Now, a slightly separate issue might be one of how much protein (amino acids really) the liver can handle at once. If the recent studies on whey vs. casein have pointed anything out, it's that flooding the liver with amino acids at a high rate leads to increased amino acid oxidation (burning) in the liver. I suppose it's conceivable that high protein intakes at any given meal could be having this effect. I suspect it depends on the source of the protein (whole food which digests slowly vs. protein powders which digest faster). That is, consuming, say, 50 grams of whey protein at once might lead to more waste (mainly as amino acids oxidized and then converted to urea) than 50 grams of casein or beef. But that's more an issue of speed of digestion than amount per se.

    In terms of supporting optimal growth, an interesting discrepancy actually occurs here between the studies on our ancestral diet and the protein needs of athletes, but nobody has an explanation yet. Good studies by Peter Lemon, Mark Tarnopolsky, etc. support a maximum protein requirement for natural lifters of about 1.8 g/kg (a little less than the 1 g/lb that bodybuilders have used for years). But studies of our ancestral diet suggest protein intakes as high as 2.5-3 g/kg. Nobody is quite sure if this protein intake was simply a side effect of the diet our ancestors followed, or if it had some actual benefit.

    Finally, I think the whole 30 g/meal (or whatever) thing can't possibly apply to everyone. I mean, at the low end, figure a 210 lb lifter is eating 210 grams of protein per day. If he's limited to 30 grams/meal, that means seven meals minimum per day. Obviously, if there is some limit to protein absorption/assimilation/digestion/utilization (and I don't honestly think that there is) it's going to be related to body mass: a larger individual needs more protein and would be able to utilize protein in larger amounts than a smaller person. Ultimately, my hunch is that the whole '30 grams per meal' (or whatever) thing came from one of two places:

    i)Early supplement companies trying to convince lifters why their protein product (containing 30 grams) was better than others. I remember one company pulling a scheme like this, when their product contained like 37 grams of protein, they wrote that 37 grams was the maximum that could be absorbed. When they bumped it to 42 grams of protein per serving, 42 became the magic number. Ah, advertising.

    ii)Bodybuilders rationalizing what they had already decided to do. That is, you frequently see bodybuilders and other athletes finding a strategy that works (i.e. eat protein at intervals throughout the day) and then making up physiological rationalizations afterwards. It wouldn't really surprise me if that weren't the case here. Of course, if anybody has a single piece of peer-reviewed research supporting this 30 grams myth (everybody seems to claim to have seen it but nobody seems to ever have it; it's like those friend of a friend stories)
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    I'm thinking about throwing Scivation Xtend into my during/post workout nutrition... probably mix some ibcaa in there to offset the price
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    I love extend. Also, DARK MATTER is great. Use a lot of water with it. Its a true post workout. You will need to eat within an hour after that.
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    Fasted AM workouts

    Pre
    10g bulk EAA

    Intra
    50g carbs (ground oats)
    20g protein (5g peptopro, 15g WPI)

    Post
    3 scoops weight gainer - 75g carbs and 40g whey protein
    2 scoops casein - 40 g casein protein

    Whole food meal ~ 1 hour later, usually oats and a protein.
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    My postworkout is a mix of whey isolate, casein, and carbs. I also try to get down some Modern BCAA because I like the glutamine dipeptide that is in it
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    Quote Originally Posted by nattydisaster View Post
    My postworkout is a mix of whey isolate, casein, and carbs. I also try to get down some Modern BCAA because I like the glutamine dipeptide that is in it
    How much sustamine is in Modern BCAA? I know it's prop blend, but what do you really think given its relative cost to something like leucine...
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    I'm thinking of just switching over to a liter of whole milk. It has all anyone really "needs" to optimize recovery: casein+whey protein and BCAAs. Plus it's cheaper.
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    Quote Originally Posted by purebred View Post
    I'm thinking of just switching over to a liter of whole milk. It has all anyone really "needs" to optimize recovery: casein+whey protein and BCAAs. Plus it's cheaper.
    poopies!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by purebred View Post
    To reinforce your post:
    Good post. It always helps to throw in some more logic to help offset the myths that are out there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by purebred View Post
    I'm thinking of just switching over to a liter of whole milk. It has all anyone really "needs" to optimize recovery: casein+whey protein and BCAAs. Plus it's cheaper.
    Lots of sugar too.....

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    yum. Sounds good. Arent the oats kindof heavy though. ??
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    Quote Originally Posted by StakedCop View Post
    Lots of sugar too.....
    Is that going to stifle gains?

    Research clearly shows that whole milk causes more lean body mass gains than drinking, say, non fat milk. I'm not clear as to what your reasoning is but I would like to explore it.

    You can either drink lower quantites of milk or drink lowfat milk if the goal is to lean out. In addition, even if you are leaning out, milk would be ideal for post-workout recovery (i.e. once a day). Not to mention, it's a more economically viable choice as opposed to supplements. That's just how I feel. I'd like to discuss this further if you're interested.
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    Quote Originally Posted by purebred View Post
    Is that going to stifle gains?

    Research clearly shows that whole milk causes more lean body mass gains than drinking, say, non fat milk. I'm not clear as to what your reasoning is but I would like to explore it.

    You can either drink lower quantites of milk or drink lowfat milk if the goal is to lean out. In addition, even if you are leaning out, milk would be ideal for post-workout recovery (i.e. once a day). Not to mention, it's a more economically viable choice as opposed to supplements. That's just how I feel. I'd like to discuss this further if you're interested.

    milk is expensive bro...
    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysgaining View Post
    I've also done fasting and doseing and felt grealt anabolicness , deffint hunger but I'm stronger than that keep full and vascular and strength gose up
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/177245-swollen87s-training-log.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by swollen87 View Post
    milk is expensive bro...
    Babies drink milk...

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