What Is The Best Nutrient Partitioning Supplement?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wocheezy View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong but if it had nutrient partitioning effects rather than GDA effects it wouldn't make you go hypo... Would it? Don't get me wrong i love anabeta, its likely my favorite supplement but idk if it necessarily has NP effects. GDA I could see, NP I'm not so sure
    I think you have this backwards. GDA -- clears glucose. NP -- selectively targets muscle cells over fat cells. We're hoping there is a GDA that is also an NP. So far I have not seen evidence of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wocheezy View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong but if it had nutrient partitioning effects rather than GDA effects it wouldn't make you go hypo... Would it? Don't get me wrong i love anabeta, its likely my favorite supplement but idk if it necessarily has NP effects. GDA I could see, NP I'm not so sure
    People have mentioned partitioning effects with Anabeta, but honestly I have never really bought that. Number one what does partitioning feel like? Number two has Anabeta ever been shown to do that in studies? Seemed to me that was something people made up for the other positive effects of Anabeta.

    Don't get me twisted, not bashing the supplement at all it's a huge hit....but I never really knew what people meant when they talked about it partitioning. Probably a catch all term for feeling Anabeta working.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerrysiii View Post
    I think you have this backwards. GDA -- clears glucose. NP -- selectively targets muscle cells over fat cells. We're hoping there is a GDA that is also an NP. So far I have not seen evidence of this.
    I know the difference, which is why I'm saying a GDA could make you go hypo, and I have had this happen before with recompadrol. I was wondering if a NP even has the potential to make you go hypo. Also, wouldn't it be more beneficial if it was a NP but NOT a GDA? Maybe I am confused but wouldn't disposing of glucose be detrimental if a NP was targeting muscle cells rather than fat cells?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wocheezy View Post
    I know the difference, which is why I'm saying a GDA could make you go hypo, and I have had this happen before with recompadrol. I was wondering if a NP even has the potential to make you go hypo. Also, wouldn't it be more beneficial if it was a NP but NOT a GDA? Maybe I am confused but wouldn't disposing of glucose be detrimental if a NP was targeting muscle cells rather than fat cells?
    The idea is to selectively shuttle the glucose from your blood into muscle cells. When you eat a carbohydrate it is either going to:

    1) be used directly for energy
    2) stored as glycogen in muscle or liver
    3) stored as fat

    We want one of the first two options.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    People have mentioned partitioning effects with Anabeta, but honestly I have never really bought that. Number one what does partitioning feel like? Number two has Anabeta ever been shown to do that in studies? Seemed to me that was something people made up for the other positive effects of Anabeta.

    Don't get me twisted, not bashing the supplement at all it's a huge hit....but I never really knew what people meant when they talked about it partitioning. Probably a catch all term for feeling Anabeta working.
    Nutrient repartitioning effects can be dependent on any number of mechanisms. Testosterone has nutrient repartitioning effects in athletes ... you eat the same food, more of it goes to synthesizing lean mass (muscle/glycogen), and fat gets "starved"/catabolized. This isnt' because test sensitizes you to insulin (it might do the opposite, I kind of forgot what I read on this), but because the energy demands of skeletal muscle in those exercising are so increased that nutrients are driven into these cells over fat cells.

    It's possible Anabeta does its work by a similar mechanism. I definitely believe it has NP effects considering how eating more leads to an increase in weight but also an increase in definition (presumably a decrease in bf).
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    While the study doesn't analyze effect in 3t3 adipocytes, the conclusion section is quite interesting. Remember, Slintensity introduces to the market the first 80% 4-Hydroxy Isoleucine standardized Extract.
    Eur J Nutr. 2012 Oct;51(7):893-8. Epub 2012 May 19.
    4-Hydroxyisoleucine stimulates glucose uptake by increasing surface GLUT4 level in skeletal muscle cells via phosphatidylinositol-3-kinase-dependent pathway.

    Jaiswal N, Maurya CK, Venkateswarlu K, Sukanya P, Srivastava AK, Narender T, Tamrakar AK.
    Source

    Division of Biochemistry, CSIR-Central Drug Research Institute, Lucknow, 226001, India.

    Abstract

    PURPOSE:

    To determine the effect of 4-Hydroxyisoleucine (4-HIL), an unusual amino acid isolated from the seeds of Trigonella foenum-graecum, on glucose uptake and the translocation of glucose transporter 4 (GLUT4) to plasma membrane in skeletal muscle cells and to investigate the underlying mechanisms of action.
    METHODS:

    Rat skeletal muscle cells (L6-GLUT4myc) were treated with 4-HIL, and the effect on glucose uptake was determined by measuring the incorporation of radio-labeled 2-deoxy-[(3)H]-D-glucose (2-DG) into the cell. Translocation of GLUT4myc to plasma membrane was measured by an antibody-coupled colorimetric assay.
    RESULTS:

    The prolonged exposure (16 h) of L6-GLUT4myc myotubes to 4-HIL caused a substantial increase in the 2-DG uptake and GLUT4 translocation to the cell surface, without changing the total amount of GLUT4 and GLUT1. Cycloheximide treatment reversed the effect of 4-HIL on GLUT4 translocation to the basal level suggesting the requirement of new protein synthesis. The 4-HIL-induced increase in GLUT4 translocation was completely abolished by wortmannin, and 4-HIL significantly increased the basal phosphorylation of AKT (Ser-473), but did not change the mRNA expression of AKT, IRS-1, GLUT4, and GSK3β.
    CONCLUSION:

    Results suggest that 4-HIL stimulates glucose uptake in L6-GLUT4myc myotubes by enhancing translocation of GLUT4 to the cell surface in a PI-3-kinase/AKT-dependent mechanism.

    PMID:22610671 [PubMed - in process]
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    I have some slintensity coming in the mail. I completely forgot to order Na-R-ALA, though. Big fail!
    Check your form: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/exercise-science/190675-proper-techniques.html
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    Also, see this. I have brought a new angle to the whole GDA/NP approach by incorporating the Momordin standardized Bitter Melon Extract. Momordin has been shown to be a promoter of PPAR-delta activity...

    Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2006 Feb 28;103(9):3444-9. Epub 2006 Feb 21.
    PPARdelta regulates glucose metabolism and insulin sensitivity.

    Lee CH, Olson P, Hevener A, Mehl I, Chong LW, Olefsky JM, Gonzalez FJ, Ham J, Kang H, Peters JM, Evans RM.
    Source

    Department of Genetics and Complex Diseases, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA 02115, USA.

    Abstract

    The metabolic syndrome is a collection of obesity-related disorders. The peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors (PPARs) regulate transcription in response to fatty acids and, as such, are potential therapeutic targets for these diseases. We show that PPARdelta (NR1C2) knockout mice are metabolically less active and glucose-intolerant, whereas receptor activation in db/db mice improves insulin sensitivity. Euglycemic-hyperinsulinemic-clamp experiments further demonstrate that a PPARdelta-specific agonist suppresses hepatic glucose output, increases glucose disposal, and inhibits free fatty acid release from adipocytes. Unexpectedly, gene array and functional analyses suggest that PPARdelta ameliorates hyperglycemia by increasing glucose flux through the pentose phosphate pathway and enhancing fatty acid synthesis. Coupling increased hepatic carbohydrate catabolism with its ability to promote beta-oxidation in muscle allows PPARdelta to regulate metabolic homeostasis and enhance insulin action by complementary effects in distinct tissues. The combined hepatic and peripheral actions of PPARdelta suggest new therapeutic approaches to treat type II diabetes.

    PMID:16492734 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    PMCID:PMC1413918
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    dsade, the science in the two studies you posted is a little beyond my understanding. Do either suggest selectivity of muscle over fat cells?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerrysiii View Post
    dsade, the science in the two studies you posted is a little beyond my understanding. Do either suggest selectivity of muscle over fat cells?
    The PPARdelta study supports a partitioning effect (rather a metabolic boost in muscle tissue, and increased carbohydrate clearance via liver activity). The first study, as I mentioned, does not do a comparison for selectivity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    The PPARdelta study supports a partitioning effect (rather a metabolic boost in muscle tissue, and increased carbohydrate clearance via liver activity). The first study, as I mentioned, does not do a comparison for selectivity.
    Dos slintensity prevent the absorption of carbs? When i take slin sane, it works great for preventing fat gain, but I can't carb load with it, because I feel it wont let me suck enough up.

    Mike
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    Quote Originally Posted by criticalbench View Post
    Dos slintensity prevent the absorption of carbs? When i take slin sane, it works great for preventing fat gain, but I can't carb load with it, because I feel it wont let me suck enough up.

    Mike
    dont say that.. I just bought SSv2 yesterday! Anyways, 2 caps of R-ala seems to give me the feeling that my bodys absorbing all the carbs I throw at it.. Up to a point, of course.
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    Cool study Dsade - thanks.

    I ask this respectfully as I'd just like to get your opinion on this.

    General question here: It is my understanding these darn mice studies are SOMEHWHAT (not totally) useless

    Seems like mice studies are both utilized AND refuted when convenient.

    Thanks D

    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Also, see this. I have brought a new angle to the whole GDA/NP approach by incorporating the Momordin standardized Bitter Melon Extract. Momordin has been shown to be a promoter of PPAR-delta activity...

    Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2006 Feb 28;103(9):3444-9. Epub 2006 Feb 21.
    PPARdelta regulates glucose metabolism and insulin sensitivity.

    Lee CH, Olson P, Hevener A, Mehl I, Chong LW, Olefsky JM, Gonzalez FJ, Ham J, Kang H, Peters JM, Evans RM.
    Source

    Department of Genetics and Complex Diseases, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA 02115, USA.

    Abstract

    The metabolic syndrome is a collection of obesity-related disorders. The peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors (PPARs) regulate transcription in response to fatty acids and, as such, are potential therapeutic targets for these diseases. We show that PPARdelta (NR1C2) knockout mice are metabolically less active and glucose-intolerant, whereas receptor activation in db/db mice improves insulin sensitivity. Euglycemic-hyperinsulinemic-clamp experiments further demonstrate that a PPARdelta-specific agonist suppresses hepatic glucose output, increases glucose disposal, and inhibits free fatty acid release from adipocytes. Unexpectedly, gene array and functional analyses suggest that PPARdelta ameliorates hyperglycemia by increasing glucose flux through the pentose phosphate pathway and enhancing fatty acid synthesis. Coupling increased hepatic carbohydrate catabolism with its ability to promote beta-oxidation in muscle allows PPARdelta to regulate metabolic homeostasis and enhance insulin action by complementary effects in distinct tissues. The combined hepatic and peripheral actions of PPARdelta suggest new therapeutic approaches to treat type II diabetes.

    PMID:16492734 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    PMCID:PMC1413918
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    Ingredients in Slintensity has my interest peaked for sure with the more I read on the 4-OH. And I've always liked Gymnema Sylvestre when used in other products. For sure have a win here Matt as always.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Cool study Dsade - thanks.

    I ask this respectfully as I'd just like to get your opinion on this.

    General question here: It is my understanding these darn mice studies are SOMEHWHAT (not totally) useless

    Seems like mice studies are both utilized AND refuted when convenient.

    Thanks D
    http://ec.europa.eu/research/health/...5082010_en.pdf

    From ursolic acid to anabeta and tons of others it's mice studies that bring new products to the market. By no means is it a perfect setup, but a necessary one for a myriad of reasons I'm sure you're aware of. Based on feedback, mice or human, Slintensity seems to be doing a ton of great things. Honestly we haven't seen any negative feedback throughout all our boards yet and we haven't had a single log. These are all customers who weren't swayed with free product, but people who bought it with their own money.
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    You mean that bodybuilders would NOT appreciate being locked in a terrarium, having their diet tightly controlled, blood taken at all hours of the day and night and then ultimately euthanized and dissected?

    I dunno, I'd be OK with saving some mice and experimenting on some of the less constructive board members here...but I'm not a MOD any more. lol



    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    http://ec.europa.eu/research/health/...5082010_en.pdf

    From ursolic acid to anabeta and tons of others it's mice studies that bring new products to the market. By no means is it a perfect setup, but a necessary one for a myriad of reasons I'm sure you're aware of. Based on feedback, mice or human, Slintensity seems to be doing a ton of great things. Honestly we haven't seen any negative feedback throughout all our boards yet and we haven't had a single log. These are all customers who weren't swayed with free product, but people who bought it with their own money.
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    Sup Geo

    Yeah yeah, I was already well-aware. My point is this:

    People often cite mice studies to support their cause and then just as easily dismiss it when they want to challenge a product.

    I am not referring to Dsade here. Just IN GENERAL. We can't have it both ways.

    And truth be told, the vast majority of mice studies do NOT cross over successfully into the human realm results-wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    http://ec.europa.eu/research/health/...5082010_en.pdf

    From ursolic acid to anabeta and tons of others it's mice studies that bring new products to the market. By no means is it a perfect setup, but a necessary one for a myriad of reasons I'm sure you're aware of. Based on feedback, mice or human, Slintensity seems to be doing a ton of great things. Honestly we haven't seen any negative feedback throughout all our boards yet and we haven't had a single log. These are all customers who weren't swayed with free product, but people who bought it with their own money.
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    The studies on Glut4 specific actions generally use transgenic mice, expressing human GLUT4.
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    I was looking forward to the live logs from beta testers from the board.

    Blake didn't even send me any!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Sup Geo

    Yeah yeah, I was already well-aware. My point is this:

    People often cite mice studies to support their cause and then just as easily dismiss it when they want to challenge a product.

    I am not referring to Dsade here. Just IN GENERAL. We can't have it both ways.

    And truth be told, the vast majority of mice studies do NOT cross over successfully into the human realm results-wise.
    Not always, but sometimes certainly. If you look at any of the recent "hit" supplements of the last 4 years almost every single one of them with a novel ingredient came from what was seen in a mice study. Anabeta's ingredient didn't have anything going for it other than what it was shown to do in mice. Same with ursolic acid and the list could go on indefinitely. Tis the nature of the beast.

    I've been the exact same as you and know exactly what you mean my man. The fact is most supplements have few human studies behind them. And the ones that do are all after it has been shown to do stuff in rodent models, then been experimented with and shown real world results, then human studies. Which it could work the other way, but we all know the reasons it can't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    I was looking forward to the live logs from beta testers from the board.

    Blake didn't even send me any!
    I'm sure Blake sent many...to his own mouth!
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    I actually agree about the rat studies. Some seem to transfer well and others do not.

    I think there is an important distinction that can be made though. Anacyclus pyrethrum could have easily been written off because the research was done in rats but the AnaBeta beta test went to 20~ people on this board before it was decided to launch the product.

    If other companies who had research extrapolated only from rat studies went through the same process there would be a few less supplements on the market.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    I'm sure Blake sent many...to his own mouth!
    Good thing there is another generous SPP rep on this board.

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    Good news...the predator shipment goes Monday. Look for an equivalent GlycoMyx/Slintensity sale.
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    Equivalent price?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Equivalent price?
    Pretty close, yes. Not sure how they work their conversion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    I actually agree about the rat studies. Some seem to transfer well and others do not.

    I think there is an important distinction that can be made though. Anacyclus pyrethrum could have easily been written off because the research was done in rats but the AnaBeta beta test went to 20~ people on this board before it was decided to launch the product.

    If other companies who had research extrapolated only from rat studies went through the same process there would be a few less supplements on the market.
    Exactly. My point was it was the rat research that led to the interest in the product and then the release that showed hey this does work in humans! If PES had said well this is in rats let's not try it out because we don't know then we would be missing out on a solid product. If you're going to innovate you have to take risks, and I don't know anyone who wouldn't call Matt an innovator (or PES for that matter!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Good thing there is another generous SPP rep on this board.

    *Stares at Geoforce*
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    Quote Originally Posted by criticalbench

    Dos slintensity prevent the absorption of carbs? When i take slin sane, it works great for preventing fat gain, but I can't carb load with it, because I feel it wont let me suck enough up.

    Mike
    Bump!
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    Quote Originally Posted by criticalbench View Post
    Bump!
    Well, in theory, youd be avoiding fat gain through the successful carb load..SS is gonna prevent as much insulin being secreted from the pancreas, to get the same job done of shuttling the glucose to skeletal muscle.. So less insulin to be released that could potentially be stored in adipocytes...But again, theres a differences between GDA's and NP's. NP's shuttle nutrients to muscle cells mainly, whereas GDA's just get the glucose out of the blood stream faster, with no particular specific destination, however the more muscle one has, plus assuming the muscles are in need of the glycogen, i'd theorize that it'd end up favoring storage in the muscle as opposed to fat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcc23
    ...But again, theres a differences between GDA's and NP's. NP's shuttle nutrients to muscle cells mainly, whereas GDA's just get the glucose out of the blood stream faster, with no particular specific destination, however the more muscle one has, plus assuming the muscles are in need of the glycogen, i'd theorize that it'd end up favoring storage in the muscle as opposed to fat.
    This is still my fundamental concern with all GDAs. Where is the benefit if they do not have selectivity? Our own insulin will also clear the glucose. Is there really a benefit to clearing it more quickly? Or using less insulin?

    I understand those with carb blocking characteristics in a cutting situation. But this also does no good for nutrient partitioning.

    Bottom line is if these are not NPs what benefit do they truly have?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to knock on these products and I'm still hoping I'm missing something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by criticalbench View Post
    Dos slintensity prevent the absorption of carbs? When i take slin sane, it works great for preventing fat gain, but I can't carb load with it, because I feel it wont let me suck enough up.

    Mike
    To an extent slintensity prevents the absorption of carbs, but it's not like it prevents all of them. I've used it for two weeks now on my carb ups with UD 2.0 and I'd say the biggest difference is less weight gain on my carb ups (water related perhaps?) and not feeling the exhaustion I usually get in terms of carb ups after going from very low carbs to high carbs. I'm not noticing any energy decrease in my workouts following the carb ups so I'd assume it's still letting me replace glycogen fairly well during this. This is what I've noticed, obviously I'd have to be very strict in monitoring everything to really hammer home the difference between a carb up without Slintensity and one with it. Don't know if that helps one bit Mike
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    To an extent slintensity prevents the absorption of carbs, but it's not like it prevents all of them.
    80% 4-OH Isoleucine (from Fenugreek),10% Momordin Bitter Melon Extract , Banaba 1%, Gymnema Sylvestre 75%,
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    How so?

    If anything, these ingredients enhance carbohydrate absorption. Are of these ingredients all effective direct or indirect GDA's as they assist in either making the body (muscle AND fat cells) more insulin senstive (less glucose intolerant) and thus, create a more comprehensive uptake of carbs (shuttling/cramming glucose into the cells....again, fat or muscle cells).

    These supps act as either insulin-sensitizers or mimickers with similar activity.

    I am unaware of any of these acting like phaseolamine/white kidney bean extract products of the past that actually inhibit amylase (as an example) thereby preventing absoprtion of carbs.

    Two different dynamics.
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    Insulin is not stored in the fat cells, glucose is (once converted to fat cells of course).

    What an NP?


    Quote Originally Posted by mcc23 View Post
    Well, in theory, youd be avoiding fat gain through the successful carb load..SS is gonna prevent as much insulin being secreted from the pancreas, to get the same job done of shuttling the glucose to skeletal muscle.. So less insulin to be released that could potentially be stored in adipocytes...But again, theres a differences between GDA's and NP's. NP's shuttle nutrients to muscle cells mainly, whereas GDA's just get the glucose out of the blood stream faster, with no particular specific destination, however the more muscle one has, plus assuming the muscles are in need of the glycogen, i'd theorize that it'd end up favoring storage in the muscle as opposed to fat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    80% 4-OH Isoleucine (from Fenugreek),10% Momordin Bitter Melon Extract , Banaba 1%, Gymnema Sylvestre 75%,
    Norvaline


    How so?

    If anything, these ingredients enhance carbohydrate absorption. Are of these ingredients all effective direct or indirect GDA's as they assist in either making the body (muscle AND fat cells) more insulin senstive (less glucose intolerant) and thus, create a more comprehensive uptake of carbs (shuttling/cramming glucose into the cells....again, fat or muscle cells).

    These supps act as either insulin-sensitizers or mimickers with similar activity.

    I am unaware of any of these acting like phaseolamine/white kidney bean extract products of the past that actually inhibit amylase (as an example) thereby preventing absoprtion of carbs.

    Two different dynamics.
    I'll quote Coop-
    Yes. Gymnema does so at the site of absorption, while banaba inhibits release of enzymes that digest carbohydrates.
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    Thanks Geo.

    Coop, got a refereence for that?

    Here's what I came up with on banaba leaf extract (none of which inhibits amylase)


    Banaba Leaf Extract — Is a medicinal plant that grows in India, Southeast Asia and the Philippines. Traditional uses from the leaves are as a treatment for diabetes and hyperglycemia.

    The hypoglycemic (blood sugar lowering) effect of banaba leaf extract is similar to that of insulin - which induces glucose transport from the blood into body cells. The active constituent in banaba leaf extract is a particularly active glucose transport enhancer, which has been shown to allow glucose into the body cells without insulin.

    In the cells, glucose can be burned for energy rather than stored as body fat. Banaba leaf extract can also help balance blood sugar levels to reduce cravings for carbohydrates and sweets.

    Benefits can include:
    • Balances blood sugar
    • Promotes healthy insulin levels
    • Controls appetite and food craving (especially carbohydrate cravings) and helps promote weight loss


    Banaba leaf extract contains a triterpenoid compound known as corosolic acid - which has actions in stimulating glucose transport into cells. As such, banaba leaf extract plays a role in regulating levels of blood sugar and insulin in the blood. For some people, fluctuations in blood sugar and insulin are related to appetite, hunger and various food cravings - particularly craving for carbohydrates such as bread and sweets.

    By keeping blood sugar and insulin levels in check, banaba leaf extract can be an effective supplement for promoting weight loss in certain individuals. The blood sugar regulating properties of banaba leaf extract have been demonstrated in cell culture, animal and human studies. In isolated cells, the active ingredient in banaba leaf extract, corosolic acid, is known to stimulate glucose uptake.

    In humans with type II diabetes, banaba extract, at a dose of 16-48mg per day for 4-8 weeks, has been shown to be effective in reducing blood sugar levels (5%-30% reduction) and maintaining tighter control of blood sugar fluctuations.

    An interesting "side-effect" of tighter control of blood sugar and insulin levels is a significant tendency of banaba leaf extract to promote weight loss (an average of 2-4 lbs. per month) - without significant dietary alterations. It is likely that modulation of glucose and insulin levels reduces total caloric intake somewhat and encourages moderate weight loss. (See *B -1 for References)

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    I'll quote Coop-
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    Corosolic acid is not the only active in Banaba.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Corosolic acid is not the only active in Banaba.
    Nor the best IMO.Anyway whacked. gymnema is a very well documented glucose blocker.EDIT: It's getting to the point that I can't even post on AM anymore due to the hassle and glitches. gonna have to make separate posts for banaba
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