You asked for it. Now its here. Oral Sustain Alpha Liqua-Vade!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasTitan View Post
    Interesting debate but what about the 7,8 benzoflavone? Seems like you're forgetting that to focus on resveratrol.
    Seems like in the midst of your estrogen crisis you're simply having a hard time comprehending what you're reading.

    Riskarb said earlier benzoflavone is cheap. Must've skipped over that in your mad rush to defend PP.

    It's cool, run on back and take another look at what he said. I'll wait. Don't forget to pick up your clown nose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by riskarb View Post
    I'll admit that it's probably a decent product and w/o a doubt will be more palatable than my micronized + HPMC + Miralax combo. I think PP should contact revgenetics.com and source some micronized powder. Micronized produces a much greater AUC for buccal-delivery. As an end-user I buy from revgenetics, but I have no affiliation with the company. PP could charge $50 and still clear a >50% margin. It's a substantial value-add to offer a product which is palatable.

    I'll stop bitching, and perhaps you can buy some men's clothes.
    I wasnt doubting the validity, just thinking it could have been said with a little less distain.

    Not sure what you mean by mens clothes...if you are looking at my avatar, you clearly missed the youtube video "My New Haircut,"

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus View Post
    Seems like in the midst of your estrogen crisis you're simply having a hard time comprehending what you're reading.

    Riskarb said earlier benzoflavone is cheap. Must've skipped over that in your mad rush to defend PP.

    It's cool, run on back and take another look at what he said. I'll wait. Don't forget to pick up your clown nose.
    Alright you sniveling little ****, I was reading it on my phone when I was bored in class. Im just so god damn sorry I couldnt please your bitch ass. Shut the **** up and get the **** out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasTitan View Post
    I wasnt doubting the validity, just thinking it could have been said with a little less distain.

    Not sure what you mean by mens clothes...if you are looking at my avatar, you clearly missed the youtube video "My New Haircut,"



    Alright you sniveling little ****, I was reading it on my phone when I was bored in class. Im just so god damn sorry I couldnt please your bitch ass. Shut the **** up and get the **** out.

    Hey...you're the one who talked **** without knowing the facts. I don't blame you for being embarrassed and lashing out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasTitan View Post
    I wasnt doubting the validity, just thinking it could have been said with a little less distain.

    Not sure what you mean by mens clothes...if you are looking at my avatar, you clearly missed the youtube video "My New Haircut,"
    Yeah, I caught that clip. I thought the brook was your own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus View Post
    Hey...you're the one who talked **** without knowing the facts. I don't blame you for being embarrassed and lashing out.
    This isnt a congressional hearing, I just skipped over something on my phone. If you werent such a sniveling ****head, you could just plug up your leavy vagina, get over it, and get the **** out.

    Quote Originally Posted by riskarb View Post
    Yeah, I caught that clip. I thought the brook was your own.
    God no. If there is such a gap between profit and cost, you should think about filling it if its that easy. Not being a smartass. And I have no idea where youd source 7,8 Benzo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasTitan View Post
    This isnt a congressional hearing, I just skipped over something on my phone. If you werent such a sniveling ****head, you could just plug up your leavy vagina, get over it, and get the **** out.



    God no.
    Right, but given the strength of your position and your specific statement, it made you look like a tool. But you already knew that I'm sure.
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    I wouldn't consider undertaking a biz opportunity with such a small potential market, and it's outside of my line of work as a CDS/variance-swap dealer. One of my points is that PP is missing an opportunity in pricing it outside the EOD.
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    Quote Originally Posted by riskarb View Post
    Obviously buccal-delivery is limited, but you're swallowing the remainder. Your comments regarding micronized resveratrol are 100% false; re: Sirtis data, et al. Please stop with the buzz-words w/o a shred of data. "Optimized" is meaningless here.
    You are incorrect and misinformed about what micronization does for absorption. Your saying that micronized sugar dissolved in water is going to absorb better than granulated sugar dissolved in water. Once its dissolved it doesn't make a difference! Our Liqua-Vade is a solution of reveratrol in a readily emulsification form... whether it began compounding as a micronized or non-micronized form of powder doesn't mater.

    Quote Originally Posted by riskarb View Post
    You have no data to show that this stuff is better than HPMC, Tween and/or PEG; and you're using a small amount of HPMC in the mix.
    HPMC/TWEEN?/PEG? Any idea what kind of TWEEN or PEG you would use? Or what kind of concentration?? And how much HPMC would you use? Either way it wouldnt matter since this combination would form a very crude clumpy emulsion and would be considered a very poor SEDDS. (if even at all)

    Also, if you have uncertainty about a low concentration of HPMC inhibiting precipitation and crystallization of active compounds, I suggest you read this study -

    Development of supersaturatable self-emulsifying drug delivery system formulations for improving the oral absorption of poorly soluble drugs.
    Gao P, et al.
    Expert Opin Drug Deliv. 2006 Jan;3(1):97-110


    FYI, 0.25mg/ml was sufficient to maintain a supersaturated state in a SEDDS.

    Quote Originally Posted by riskarb View Post
    You're telling me that a $2B pharma doesn't have access to a product utilized by a couple of guys working out of their home office?
    Funny that you mention pharm companies... Did you know that SEDDS (Liqua-Vade) is a pharmaceutical technology thats being researched and implemented with hundreds of new drugs each year?

    Home office? Nope.. thats actually me in the avatar pulling out a batch of red chinese ginseng from our edenlabs coldfinger extractor in our 5k sq ft production facility.. nothing too special... but not a home office by any means.

    Quote Originally Posted by riskarb View Post
    300mg of micronized resveratrol + HPMC or miralax and you've got a better product at the same price.
    This in an interesting statement, but also incorrect. PEG 3350 doesnt form a SEDDS, even with HPMC. Are you just throwing dirt at me to get information about SEDDS since you dont understand the technology? Ill be glad to explain the science if thats the case...

    -Eric
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    Wow Eric, very well thought out responses and presented without the attacks sprinkled in. Speaks volumes about your character AND your company. Open minds disagree, closed minds disregard. All too often on these forums people attack products without knowing enough about them LOL.

    I already got my Sustain earlier today. Other than a slight aftertaste of soap lol, I absolutely prefer this than the topical. Three seconds and I'm good to go. Topical takes too long to dry as I'm always in a rush out the door.

    Oh, and thanks again for the XXL t-shirt w/ my order. Fits good!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    You are incorrect and misinformed about what micronization does for absorption. Your saying that micronized sugar dissolved in water is going to absorb better than granulated sugar dissolved in water. Once its dissolved it doesn't make a difference! Our Liqua-Vade is a solution of reveratrol in a readily emulsification form... whether it began compounding as a micronized or non-micronized form of powder doesn't mater.



    HPMC/TWEEN?/PEG? Any idea what kind of TWEEN or PEG you would use? Or what kind of concentration?? And how much HPMC would you use? Either way it wouldnt matter since this combination would form a very crude clumpy emulsion and would be considered a very poor SEDDS. (if even at all)

    Also, if you have uncertainty about a low concentration of HPMC inhibiting precipitation and crystallization of active compounds, I suggest you read this study -

    Development of supersaturatable self-emulsifying drug delivery system formulations for improving the oral absorption of poorly soluble drugs.
    Gao P, et al.
    Expert Opin Drug Deliv. 2006 Jan;3(1):97-110


    FYI, 0.25mg/ml was sufficient to maintain a supersaturated state in a SEDDS.



    Funny that you mention pharm companies... Did you know that SEDDS (Liqua-Vade) is a pharmaceutical technology thats being researched and implemented with hundreds of new drugs each year?

    Home office? Nope.. thats actually me in the avatar pulling out a batch of red chinese ginseng from our edenlabs coldfinger extractor in our 5k sq ft production facility.. nothing too special... but not a home office by any means.



    This in an interesting statement, but also incorrect. PEG 3350 doesnt form a SEDDS, even with HPMC. Are you just throwing dirt at me to get information about SEDDS since you dont understand the technology? Ill be glad to explain the science if thats the case...

    -Eric
    I am not producing supplements, so I use PEG3350 (Miralax) and Polysorbate80. I've used F50 HPMC as well. PEG 8xxx or better would be advised.

    Sirtis doesn't use a SEDDS, and achieved much higher plasma concentrations then the journal-data you provide. You have no empirical data that you haven't pulled from the web.

    Buccal absorption with micronized resveratrol. Yeah, it makes a difference.

    You market a topical resveratrol supplement when the data is universally in agreement that you cannot achieve a detectable, let alone a therapeutic plasma conc. with topical resveratrol. Yet you continue to market the bullsh*t.
    Last edited by riskarb; 10-27-2009 at 03:49 PM.
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    Sirtis uses micronized resveratrol in its SRT501 compound. Also, I am sure you've seen the Westphal data:



    600mg/kg resveratrol
    500mg/kg micronized resveratrol, no carrier
    400mg/kg micronized resveratrol, DOSS+HPMC

    A > 2x plasma conc. on micronized over standard particle size. A 4x increase in HPMC/DOSS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    This in an interesting statement, but also incorrect. PEG 3350 doesnt form a SEDDS, even with HPMC. Are you just throwing dirt at me to get information about SEDDS since you dont understand the technology? Ill be glad to explain the science if thats the case...

    -Eric
    I do know that Sirtis/GSK use a micronized product. Their first true success was with micronized resveratrol and tween. The highest plasma conc were achieved by Sirtis with micronized resveratrol.

    I'll concede that I probably know as much about SEDDS as you know about what is best-practice replication for a Nikkei 10k-strike exotic lookback call option (my line of work). I have no interest in being schooled on SEDDS. I am commenting on the use of micronized for buccal absorption. Regardless, the Westphal data (aforementioned graph) shows the superiority of micronized resveratrol over standard particle size. The goal is to avoid conjugation, and the AUC is better with micronized. We've witnessed the death of your argument made by your "granulated sugar" analogy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by riskarb View Post
    I am not producing supplements, so I use PEG3350 (Miralax) and Polysorbate80. I've used F50 HPMC as well. PEG 8xxx or better would be advised.
    Congrats for you. Im sure this produces a decently absorbed form of resveratrol... but its not Sustain Alpha, your not getting a dose of BZF, and its certainly isn't going to perform as well as our type IIIB supersaturatable SEDDS technology.

    Quote Originally Posted by riskarb View Post
    Sirtis doesn't use a SEDDS, and achieved much higher plasma concentrations then the journal-data you provide.
    That was a single journal to provide support for a low concentration of HPMC, which you criticized for being too low. In case you where not aware its included to inhibit precipitation and crystallization of active compound (which would hurt delivery). It does not function as any kind of permeation enhancer. (like most of the compounds in Liqua-Vade do)

    Quote Originally Posted by riskarb View Post
    Buccal absorption with micronized resveratrol. Yeah, it makes a difference.
    Again, this is incorrect. Once dissolved into solution it does not make a difference. This is chem 101.

    Quote Originally Posted by riskarb View Post
    600mg/kg resveratrol
    500mg/kg micronized resveratrol, no carrier
    400mg/kg micronized resveratrol, DOSS+HPMC

    A > 2x plasma conc. on micronized over standard particle size. A 4x increase in HPMC/DOSS.
    This doesn't help you argument. Of course the DOSS+HPMC is going to achieve higher absorption than the no carrier. The only reason they would be using micronized is for compounding purposes, not because it enhanced bio-availability (especially if they achieving full dissolution of the res, which is probably what the DOSS is for). The same exact high performance formula could be created with enough sheer mixing force of regular mesh res. Do you know that "micronized" just means the compound was sifted through a screen?

    What was the relevance of this post anyway? Are you mixing dioctyl (2-ethylhexyl) sulfosuccinate and HPMC into a home resveratrol concoction or something? This may be fun for the imminst crowd but not everybody feels safe with home tinkering just to save a buck...

    -Eric
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    Quote Originally Posted by riskarb View Post
    I wouldn't consider undertaking a biz opportunity with such a small potential market, and it's outside of my line of work as a CDS/variance-swap dealer. One of my points is that PP is missing an opportunity in pricing it outside the EOD.
    Hey guy! since your not doing anything but denigrating "The price" of this product then perhaps you should leave the thread. Your opinion is completely not valued. We get it..you dont like the pricing..your not going to buy it and your gonna stick with your home made stuff..ooookk..but seriously you got another thing coming if you think you can undermines Eric's knowledge of these products.
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    Sustain is worth it IMO
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishboots View Post
    Sustain is worth it IMO
    For people that are on TRT would this be a good supplement to take just to get the benefits of the reservatrol in a good absorpable form. Could it also help to keep e2 down or in control when on TRT. Since we are shutdown already it should not really matter, but if get the perks of blowing peter norths side loads it be worth it just for that LOL
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    For people that are on TRT would this be a good supplement to take just to get the benefits of the reservatrol in a good absorpable form. Could it also help to keep e2 down or in control when on TRT. Since we are shutdown already it should not really matter, but if get the perks of blowing peter norths side loads it be worth it just for that LOL
    We have alot of TRT guys that use it for this purpose. It provides a nice boost in virility.

    It is a mild AI though, so if you need serious E2 control your better off going with something stronger. SA isnt going to keep estrogen in range if you're doing 500mg/week test.

    -Eric
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    Will the oral be available soon in the TRS combo? Also, since the booting of 1-t tren (RIP), does PP have any plans for anything new along those lines?
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    is time
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    Got Glycophase ...?


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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcarpenter View Post
    Will the oral be available soon in the TRS combo? Also, since the booting of 1-t tren (RIP), does PP have any plans for anything new along those lines?
    No plans for any steroidial products, but we will be releasing the highly anticipated PreMax next week.

    -Eric
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    I was going to make this point. Resveratrol specialists/enthusiasts think that micronized loaded with tween is the way to go. It is extremely expensive however, not the tween bit but grinding it to incredibly small particles.

    PP has had the charge against it that TD never got past the skin fat - something like that. This is a step to address that criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by riskarb View Post
    Sirtis uses micronized resveratrol in its SRT501 compound. Also, I am sure you've seen the Westphal data:
    The most experienced group with resV will be the Imminist forum which is dedicated to it. If PP has a delivary system that matches micronized tween-80 resV. they'll know. If so its a winner and would be cheap. If not need to do a careful cost benefit. Normally PP make their stuff the most cost effective on the market by a small margin, e.g. I did this with Endomax, Toco doesn't have any real competition.

    The guy that will know is Knowbull: if he did a sponsored log whatever the outcome of that is would be really meaningful.
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    I've not followed the thread the whole way through. The background is that the current thinking is resveratrol is best micronized and delivered in tween-80, at least that was the last time I followed it (about 4 months). Clearly PP hasn't micronized - it is a very expensive process. Eric here argues there is no need if the organic (chemistry) delivery system if its perfectly dissolved:
    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    You are incorrect and misinformed about what micronization does for absorption. Your saying that micronized sugar dissolved in water is going to absorb better than granulated sugar dissolved in water. Once its dissolved it doesn't make a difference!
    There is an easy answer to this but I'm needing PP's help to get some test samples sorted ... I'll skip this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    HPMC/TWEEN?/PEG? Any idea what kind of TWEEN or PEG you would use? Or what kind of concentration??
    Tween-80 is the current one. The anti-aging crowd gets spooked by anything that ain't pharmaceutical grade and hasn't got total FDA backing ..that sort of thing. It may not be the best delivary system but it is considered very safe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Development of supersaturatable self-emulsifying drug delivery system formulations for improving the oral absorption of poorly soluble drugs.
    Gao P, et al.Expert Opin Drug Deliv. 2006 Jan;3(1):97-110
    Looks interesting for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    FYI, 0.25mg/ml was sufficient to maintain a supersaturated state in a SEDDS
    Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    thats actually me in the avatar pulling out a batch of red chinese ginseng from our edenlabs coldfinger extractor in our 5k sq ft production facility.. nothing too special...
    If its 6-year old I'm interested!! And I disagree it is special!

    PP certainly have an interesting product, but as posted above it needs a heavy duty user into top-grade resveratrol to try it. At a guess it looks like by super-saturating then you avoid it dropping out of solution whilst it is adsorbing against the alimentary tract.
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    So who's tried our new SA thusfar?

    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Legendary

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trauma1 View Post
    So who's tried our new SA thusfar?
    i have, but not solo.............both oral and transdermal

    i just finished using the TRS, Prime, low dose clomid(25mg MWF) and ldex(.25mg E4D) for my initial 4 week hardcore pct. I have 8 more weeks of otc pct lined out. Then bloodwork mid January.

    My cycle was 16 weeks, started using the transdermal SA(3 on 3 off) after 8weeks in.

    I have dropped about 5-6(Gained about 25#'s,185-210 actually) pounds since pct started and some strength.....But what totally amazes me, i have lost no sexual performance or libido.

    I cannot honestly pinpoint what is working and what isnt, but i know for certain.>>>>

    TRS will continue to be a staple in any pct that i run.

    I have 4 TRS units on hand. Not all for me, but when my bros come for pct, i hook them up.

    My 2 pennies.
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    what is premax?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcarpenter View Post
    what is premax?
    This my friend:

    PREMAX THREAD


    Not Long Now!!
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    Great product PrimPerf.
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    In about 2 weeks, I will be starting a natty test boosting/AI stack (haven't done so in awhile, in need of it).. The stack will consist of Mass FX/TD Formestane and HGHup.. How overkill would it be to throw liquid sustain alpha into the mix?! LOL
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    Well this new delivery system seems to be working for me, morning glories are up...i also feel that this seems more potent from my general senses. Day 5 of running it in the TRS combination.

    Also i highly recommend the worm in water method. Slides down you throat that way. The straight shot method is harsh...
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrownRoyal View Post
    In about 2 weeks, I will be starting a natty test boosting/AI stack (haven't done so in awhile, in need of it).. The stack will consist of Mass FX/TD Formestane and HGHup.. How overkill would it be to throw liquid sustain alpha into the mix?! LOL
    No, I think that would be a fine stack.

    -Eric
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    Quote Originally Posted by D675 View Post
    Well this new delivery system seems to be working for me, morning glories are up...i also feel that this seems more potent from my general senses. Day 5 of running it in the TRS combination.

    Also i highly recommend the worm in water method. Slides down you throat that way. The straight shot method is harsh...
    sweet man, glad your enjoying it thus far
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrownRoyal View Post
    In about 2 weeks, I will be starting a natty test boosting/AI stack (haven't done so in awhile, in need of it).. The stack will consist of Mass FX/TD Formestane and HGHup.. How overkill would it be to throw liquid sustain alpha into the mix?! LOL
    Well I don't see any of the ingredients over-lapping but I still think it might be overkill lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdrannin1 View Post
    Well I don't see any of the ingredients over-lapping but I still think it might be overkill lol.
    Yea, if anything, im just worried about one of the products dimenishing the effects of the other.. Not to mention, im not sure how I would really dose/time all of this and taper off so my estrogen doesn't rebound or something (since I shouldn't have to do any type of pct w/ this), hah. Any PM's from reps would be very much appreciated.

    P.S. I will probably log the whole experience. I am hoping that this stack on top of eating like a horse will get me THICK as hell and jacked like a freak.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrownRoyal View Post
    Yea, if anything, im just worried about one of the products dimenishing the effects of the other.. Not to mention, im not sure how I would really dose/time all of this and taper off so my estrogen doesn't rebound or something (since I shouldn't have to do any type of pct w/ this), hah. Any PM's from reps would be very much appreciated.

    P.S. I will probably log the whole experience. I am hoping that this stack on top of eating like a horse will get me THICK as hell and jacked like a freak.
    You probably could bump the dose down on the formestane if you where running the Sustain Alpha.

    -Eric
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    You probably could bump the dose down on the formestane if you where running the Sustain Alpha.

    -Eric
    I am thinking about just running the massfx/formestane together, and then near the end of the run, bridging directly into the liquid sustain. Seems like it would probably be most beneficial that way. Thoughts?... I get my shipment on thursday, I'm beyond stoked
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrownRoyal View Post
    In about 2 weeks, I will be starting a natty test boosting/AI stack (haven't done so in awhile, in need of it).. The stack will consist of Mass FX/TD Formestane and HGHup.. How overkill would it be to throw liquid sustain alpha into the mix?! LOL
    Sustain Alpha works differently to all of those supplements so you could throw it in, although it would probably be better to cycle into a TRS run as you finish the cycle you've outlined above, rather than add in Sustain Alpha on its own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKStrength View Post
    Sustain Alpha works differently to all of those supplements so you could throw it in, although it would probably be better to cycle into a TRS run as you finish the cycle you've outlined above, rather than add in Sustain Alpha on its own.
    I just don't wanna have too much anti-e running at once. Sry if this is a dumb question but, what does TRS stand for?
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    test recovery stack
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty33 View Post
    test recovery stack
    Ahhh.. Well see, that's why I figured running massfx/form/hghup into sustain alpha liquid/hghup would be significant. I will also be on life support (the supp lol), throughout the whole thing.
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    Test recovery stack isn't such a bad stack.

    I am using phos.-serine now and its impressive so much so its part of my regular stack.

    I wouldn't mind running a log of Toco-8 and Sustain Alpha with some natty stuff (icariin and phyto-test) to check the test boost. Running this and then running the mighty "Long Jack" I think would be a good test of different test boosters.

    The new oral SA .... I've got several years supply of SA (along with Toco-8) so no point. Bit low on EndoAmp max though.
  

  
 

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