The Most Effective Post Workout Supp.
- 02-26-2009, 09:44 PM
- 02-26-2009, 09:47 PM
I think some people go for some pretty exotic stuff but i like to keep it simple. My favorites are either just eating a whole meal as soon as im home(this is convenient only sometimes), CORE MRP, or Xtreme Formulations Relentless(tastes great no stomach discomfort either)PEScience Representative
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02-26-2009, 09:51 PM
I like to keep it somewhat simple too i take White FLOOD And Green MAG pre and just GNC Wheybolic Extreme 60 post 60 grams of protein so ya thats what i do works pretty good.
02-26-2009, 09:55 PM
Protein, carbs and a few multivitamins.
Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless
02-26-2009, 10:01 PM
I agree with the above posts. I take in about 40gram of some cheap EAS Whey Protein and 3 scoops of PrimaForce Waxy Maize. In addition I pop Multi. Currently I'm getting ready to run a 3-AD/Havoc cycle, so for the last 2 weeks I've been adding in a scoop of Cycle Support. Pretty simple.
Last edited by BigFish80; 02-26-2009 at 10:07 PM. Reason: left out a word
02-26-2009, 10:11 PM
02-26-2009, 10:22 PM
Last edited by BigFish80; 02-26-2009 at 10:23 PM. Reason: spelling
02-26-2009, 10:24 PM
I think Waximaize has a GI of ....ONE MILLION!!
Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless
02-26-2009, 10:28 PM
02-26-2009, 10:30 PM
02-26-2009, 10:31 PM
02-26-2009, 10:45 PM
this covers everthing u need to know about wms, bassicly its the best thing to includ in yer post work out
Waxy corn (maize) does have a moderate Glycemic Index, however, it is it's unique osmolity that allows it to pass through the digestive system relatively quickly and help pull other nutrients with it into the bloodstream. It's purported effect is assumed to be a greater insulin release and having a higher amount of desired materials reach the blood stream in a smaller time frame...
In short, waxy maize is not what you want if you are needing a low gi load...
im lookin for it now
heres a big theard about wms
It has been standard practice for many years for serious athletes to consume a high carbohydrate meal following intense exercise. As time has gone on, this post exercise meal has been scrutinized, and analyzed make sure that the correct type of carbohydrates are eaten to maximize the replacement of glycogen lost during exercise.
After exercise that depletes the body of it’s glycogen stores, an enzyme called glycogen synthetase is produced in elevated quantities by the body to help restore glycogen levels that have been depleted from the exercise. Typical rates of glycogen resynthesis after short term, high intensity exercise are much higher than glycogen resynthesis rates following prolonged, lower intensity exercise. This is largely due to the fact that fast twitch muscle fibers are used more heavily in short term, high intensity exercise, and fast twitch fibers have a higher level of glycogen synthetase activity than slow-twitch fibers. (4)
This means that the body has a greater need, and a greater ability to restore glycogen levels after short term, high intensity training, which is exactly what weight training for bodybuilding purposes is.
It is widely known that it is important to get carbohydrates into your system soon after weight training. One reason is, studies show that delaying the ingestion of a carbohydrate supplement post exercise will result in a reduced rate of muscle glycogen storage. (3) Largely because of this fact, it has become standard practice to ingest a sugary carbohydrate source following exercise. A "sugar" is defined as any of a class of water-soluble crystalline carbohydrates, including sucrose and lactose, having a characteristically sweet taste and classified as monosaccharides, disaccharides, and trisaccharides. (9) It was quickly noted by those in the know that not all sugars are created equal. For example, one monosaccharide called fructose has often been given, an arguably undeserving, bad rap for it’s propensity to restore liver glycogen levels when muscle glycogen restoration is the goal.
The Glycemic Index (GI index) was developed to give a number to carbohydrate rich foods based on how quickly they enter the blood stream. The higher the GI, the more quickly it will enter the bloodstream and raise insulin levels. Insulin is the "bus" that helps shuttle all the nutrients to your muscle and other cells of the body. The highest GI food is glucose, with a GI of 100. With this information, D-glucose (Dextrose), quickly became the carbohydrate of choice for use post workout.
What all this is saying is what everyone already knows. After a workout, it is important to take in fast acting protein and carbs to begin repairing and rebuilding your hard earned muscle. But, what if there was a way to improve this practice?
Recently, a new player has emerged in the post workout carbohydrate war, high molecular weight carbohydrates. High molecular weight carbohydrates (HMW) have shown great promise in recent studies in a wide range of post workout benefits.
The words most often thrown out when talking about HMW carbohydrates are "gastric emptying" and "osmolality." These terms essentially go hand in hand with each other. Osmolality, often confused with osmolarity, affects the transport of water and other solutes over the cell membranes. (10) Osmolality is essentially based around the specific osmolality of the blood, which is 280-303 mOsm/kg in humans. A solute that has the same osmolality of blood is said to be isotonic. A solute that has a lower osmolality than blood is hypotonic. The more hypotonic a solution is, the quicker it passes through the stomach into the small intestine where the bulk of energy uptake occurs. (11) Basically, a very low osmolality means it will get to your precious muscle as fast as possible.
The higher the molecular weight of a carbohydrate, the lower it’s osmolality. The lower the molecular weight of a carbohydrate, the higher it’s osmolality. So, a carbohydrate’s molecular weight varies inversely to its osmolality. Knowing this, you can begin to more closely appreciate the difference between HMW carbohydrates and Dextrose. The molecular weight of the typical HMW carbohydrate that is marketed today has a molecular weight of 500,000-700,000. The molecular weight of Dextrose is approximately 180. (11) This stat helps quantify the difference between the two carb sources.
The Osmolality of said HMW carbohydrate is 11 mOsm/kg in a 5% solution., which is considerably lower than the osmolality of blood at 300 mOsm/kg. With an osmolality that low, the HMW carbohydrate is extremely hypotonic, and we know that the more hypotonic a solution is, the quicker it passes through the stomach into the small intestine.(11) This means that the world of carbohydrates, the HMW carbohydrate is a Ferrari Enzo, and Dextrose is your mother’s Buick Skylark.
In fact, one popular HMW carbohydrate drink has been shown to pass through the stomach 80% faster than dextrose, allowing restoration of glycogen 70% faster than any other carbohydrate.(13) How would you like to like to start rebuilding muscle 70% sooner than you already are after a workout? One study on the subject showed that the mean glycogen synthesis rate was significantly higher for a HMW carbohydrate drink compared to a glucose drink for 2 hours after ingestion, with the scientists coming to the conclusion that "the osmolality of the carbohydrate drink may influence the rate of resynthesis of glycogen in muscle after its depletion by exercise."(6) What the scientists are saying can be paraphrased as "a HMW carbohydrate will get to your muscles faster than the carbohydrate you’re using now." These studies showed that blood sugar levels and insulin levels were not statistically significantly different the HMW carbohydrate and the glucose. So, despite being a complex carbohydrate, compared to the sugary Dextrose, the HMW carbohydrate was still raising insulin at about the same level as Dextrose. So, at this point, what we’re dealing with is something that powers through the stomach, leaving you with no bloated feeling, reaching the point of digestion at mach speeds, reaches the blood stream as fast as Dextrose, but restores glycogen 70% faster. Sounds too good to be true? It gets better.
What this all leads towards is that the Osmolality of HMW carbohydrates can potentially speed up the rate of glycogen synthesis post workout, as well as increase the uptake of vital nutrients added to the HMW carbohydrate drink. That’s right, all the stuff you’ve been taking after your workout, in the hopes of getting it to the muscle, can be sucked up right along with the HMW carbohydrate, faster than ever before. The only problem is, any amino based nutrient (protein, amino acids, creatine, etc.) has a much lower molecular weight than the HMW carbohydrate, so when adding other nutrients you must consider the effect those nutrients will have on the total molecular weight of the mix. So, at least in theory, too much protein, creatine, and other nutrients can take away some of its benefits.
For this reason, it is my belief that added amino based nutrients should be kept to a minimum during ingestion of a HMW carbohydrate drink. My current recommendations for a 200lb bodybuilder are 75g of a HMW carbohydrate mixed with 5g creatine, 8g L-leucine, and 5-10g of BCAA’s. Since we’re trying to keep extra nutrients to a minimum, we are focusing on select nutrients that give us the most "bang for our buck." L-leucine has been shown in studies to be the specific amino acid to "switch on" protein synthesis. And all of the Branched Chain Amino Acids (BCAA’s) have been shown to be preferentially taken up by skeletal muscle. Creatine has been shown in many studies to provide many benefits to bodybuilders. This means that the "best" amino acids will be available as quickly as possible to trigger muscle growth, and decrease catabolism.
This meal should be followed approximately 15-30min later with a meal containing protein and complex carbohydrates, preferably a fast digesting liquid protein such as a whey isolate, and some complex carbohydrates.
If you understand the make up of your muscle mass, you will learn that there is much more to the muscle than just contractile tissue. A large portion of your muscle mass area is made up of things besides muscle. There is water, glycogen, minerals, blood vessels, capillaries, etc., etc. By using these HMW carbohydrate powders, you can quickly draw the carbohydrate up into your muscles, along with water, and the cell volumizing nutrients you take along with it. With the faster glycogen restoration, you can decrease catabolism after a workout, and speed up the potential for synthesizing protein as new muscle. In plain English, the result is more muscle.
I don't think you'll find any studies on the subject, but in my own personal findings, I think that any less than 67% of your total pwo mixture containing waxy maize, and you'll begin to see a noticable change in absorption.
One of the big benefits of WM is it's osmolality, which I believe is around 11 mmol/kg in a 5% solution. Compare that to blood at around 300mmol/kg.
What this means is it's kind of like a cannonball being shot at a fishing net, the fishing net just gets dragged along for the ride.
So, theoretically, any nutrient added to the WM will be "pulled" with the WM, hopefully increasing absoprtion rates.
The problem is, any amino based nutrient (protein, amino acids, creatine, etc.) has a MUCH lower molecular weight than WM. So, any added nutrients must, at least in theory, lower the total molecular weight of the "meal" that includes the WM.
Like I said above, I've found that any more than 33% of the total solution containing other ingredients, and you'll notice a change in absorption, based on blood sugar levels.
WM can be very beneficial in it's ability to pull water into the muscle.
Glycogen storage requires three things, sodium, water, and glucose (the WM is broken down to glucose in the small intestine).
WM seems to have the ability to increase the amount of water that is stored in the muscles.
For this reason, I feel that other cell volumizing ingredients are good to take with the WM. (IE: creatine, taurine, etc.)
An enzyme called "glycogen synthetase" is elevated for about 2 hours post workout (pulling from memory, may be longer). This increases the body's ability to store glycogen after a workout.
So, for these reasons, the WM is great for post workout usage.
02-26-2009, 10:46 PM
02-26-2009, 11:03 PM
02-26-2009, 11:11 PM
I keep it simple. 20 grams of protein(why isolate) right after training with some simple carbs. Then a slower digesting protein(meat lol) ,around 50 grams worth, about 40 min later with sweet potato or brown rice. Sometimes I get real crazy and have oatmeal.
02-26-2009, 11:16 PM
Anyone else want to take a stab at the GI of Waxy Maize?
AlwaysGaining thanks for the post, but still doesn't give me the answer that I'm looking for. I know what waxy maize is and what it's used for, but still a good post for anyone who doesn't know what WM is. I'm just looking for a number, not a book.
02-26-2009, 11:32 PM
I currently use 75g of 75% waxy maize, 15% pepto pro, 10% leucine during the workout, and 1 scoop whey protein isolate 75% and leucine 25% post-workout. Often the whey gets combined with just a carb source out of convenience, but my ideal method is shake 1, shake 2, Protein+carb meal with maybe 20 min in between.
I am considering experimenting with more pepto pro and less carbohydrate, and perhaps even some glycerol mono stearate in there. I think something like 60g of 20% leucine, 30% pepto pro, 10% GMS, 10% creatine, 10% essential amino acids, 20% of some carb source (not waxy, as it needs to comprise 75% or more of the solution to act in its uniquely effective way according to my readings) could be very, very interesting for recomp type goals.
02-27-2009, 10:06 AM
02-27-2009, 10:23 AM
Take a look at Torrent. This is from the ISSN position paper... For those of ya who don't know, that's the International Society of Sports Nutrition--the leading body. Some smart minds right there. They just issued their official position on "Nutrient Timing"--pre-, intra-, and post-workout nutrition. Some conclusions:
- "Daily post-exercise ingestion of a CHO + PRO supplement promtes greater increases in strength and improvements in lean tissue and body fat % during regular resistance training."
- "Addition of Cr to a CHO + PRO supplement in conjunction with regular resistance training facilitates greater improvements in strength and body composition as compared with when no Cr is consumed."
They also recommend a minimum of 50g of CHO and 20g of PRO which "facilitates an increase in the development of lean mass and overall improvements in body fat %". Torrent has 20g of PRO and 52g of CHO, both of which are within the ISSN recommended guidelines.
Torrent goes out to the first three who post directly in this thread (no PMs), specifically indicating why you'd want to try Torrent for yourself. You have to have a U.S. mailing addy and be at least 18 and not have won anything from Universal in the past 30 days.
02-27-2009, 10:35 AM
That is excellent info U-rep. After a hard grueling workout. The kind where you run yourself completely out. I slam my Torrent shake and I can literally feel the life coming back into my body. Best recovery product I've ever used.
02-27-2009, 10:39 AM
02-27-2009, 10:45 AM
02-27-2009, 10:50 AM
02-27-2009, 10:55 AM
02-27-2009, 11:07 AM
I'd love to try torrent. I started this thread because I wasn't sure what was best. There are so many options out there. I just started to seriously work out again and I want the best from my workouts. From what others have said, Torrent will get me there. A free sample would be so awesome.
02-27-2009, 11:13 AM
I would want to try torrent b/c of the way that it completes your post workout nutrition. It gets you three different cho sources, the fasted digesting whey (hydrolyzed) and different peptides lengths aswell. The three forms of luecine are an added bonus too along with the cee & mcc not to mention the taurine. I would love to add torrent to have torrent for my post workout nutrition. I have also heard that the green apple avalanche flavor is really good too.
02-27-2009, 11:18 AM
02-27-2009, 11:18 AM
PM ur full name and addy fellas. You got a choice of the Cherry Berry Blast or Green Apple Avalanche. I prefer GAA but many like CBB. Your call.
For feedback on Torrent:
02-27-2009, 11:19 AM
02-27-2009, 11:31 AM