Weird liver scare.

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  1. Weird liver scare.


    I actually had a weird instance. I only took Diesel Test Hardcore for 4 weeks, @ 4 tabs a day. In conjunction I took 4 pills of primaforce cissus, superpump, glucosomine, saw palmetto, fish oil, rogaine with azelaic acid (applied topically). I would only drink once or sometimes twice a week but I would drink hard sometimes. My ALT levels were 137 and AST were 59. My liver hurt a little bit. I went to the DR. He said "just get off the supplements". Well that wasn't enough! I took matters in my own hands. I started taking Liv 52 @ 2 pill--3 times a day. In 3 weeks I'm at 64 ALT and normal AST (25). My enzymes dropped over half! In 3 weeks I will take another blood panel to see if there is any progress. Now I'm taking Maximum Milk Thistle with the Liv 52. I also have some SAMe on hand as well. My questions are:
    1. Anybody hear about regular supplements causing liver damage. Of the products mentioned which one would or could stand out as the culprit?
    2. Can alcohol mix poorly with supps.??
    3. Would a topically applied supplement such as Sustain be easier on the liver than any type of orally adminstered supplement.
    4. I'm 34 and I need some hormone help from time to time, what would be the safest and most effective supp. that doesn't mess with your liver.
    5. Last question: Can you take Liv52, milk thistle, and SAMe at the same time?


  2. I really cannot see any of those supplements having any bad effects on the liver, if you drink once or twice a week sometimes hard then that would most likely be what was messing up your liver, I wouldnt worry about restarting the supps, just lay off the booze so much
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  3. Agreed - be more reasonable in your consumption.

    I recommend Vodka and Pepto Bismol.
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless

  4. Ya'll really think it's the alcohol consumption rather than the supplements??

  5. So, you're drinking alcohol (a known liver toxin) "hard" and you think some supplements are causing the elevated enzyme? Clever.

    Just stop drinking so hard.

    If you're going to try to pinpoint the cause of something, you don't change multiple factors at once. You would, for example, continue with you supplements but cut out all alcohol, then get re-tested. You wouldn't stop both supps and drinking simultaneously. Otherwise you won't know what really caused the issue in the first place (this should be painfully obvious).
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  6. Yeah it is most likely just the alcohol. When you drink heavy is when you will feel more pain in your liver and your liver bloodwork will be higher, even if its just once a week. Doctors are normally very unfamiliar with supplements and will blame them first for anything. Not really a bad idea on their part since it is unknown to them plus he may just think that you are taking prohormones and that is why your liver is wack. But anyway taking Milk Thisthle, Liv 52, and SAMe together will not cause any reactions or problems. Now if you have taken PHs or roids in the past or if gallbladder issues run in the family you may want to try some liverlonger.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by papapumpsd View Post
    So, you're drinking alcohol (a known liver toxin) "hard" and you think some supplements are causing the elevated enzyme? Clever.

    Just stop drinking so hard.

    If you're going to try to pinpoint the cause of something, you don't change multiple factors at once. You would, for example, continue with you supplements but cut out all alcohol, then get re-tested. You wouldn't stop both supps and drinking simultaneously. Otherwise you won't know what really caused the issue in the first place (this should be painfully obvious).
    Even though you were condesending, you may have a point. I didn't think that once a week of hard drinking would knock my enzymes out of whack so much. The reason I quit everything, is the DR. told me to purge everything out of my system. So thats what I did.

  8. Another reason I was thinking it was the supplements. is because you don't hear about anybody having liver issues with alcohol on this board. I know drinking is hard but I thought as infrequent as i consumed (although hard) it wouldn't have lasting effects on my liver functions.

  9. You can die from drinking too much alcohol just once. Depending on the amount you have, your age, genetics, and what your liver has already been through so far in life, is how it will effect you at that current time. I doubt you have serious permanent damage done to your liver especially considering the fact that you already dropped your enzymes in half. So no real worry there.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by clint3612 View Post
    Ya'll really think it's the alcohol consumption rather than the supplements??

    There is no doubt in my mind.

  11. I think what I'm gonna do is stay off everything for awhile. I'll take the Liv52 and milk thistle and check my liver functions every 3 weeks for 3 months and do a average of my liver enzymes. If i consistently have average enzymes then I may start a DTH 3-4 week cycle, then test my enzyme levels and do a comparison. This will definitely tell me what the supplements are doing or not doing to my body. I will not drink another drink until maybe 2010 or so. Its not worth it these days!

  12. When was the test done? Even a day or 2 after a hard night of drinking, liver values can still be elevated, even if there is no actual damage.

  13. Alcohol, even if just hard once or twice a week can throw off your alt ast pretty easily. I'm speaking from experience. Although it's weird your liver hurt at those levels. Mine didn't hurt until I was in the 500's and high 180's alt/ast

  14. Quote Originally Posted by clint3612 View Post
    I actually had a weird instance. I only took Diesel Test Hardcore for 4 weeks, @ 4 tabs a day. In conjunction I took 4 pills of primaforce cissus, superpump, glucosomine, saw palmetto, fish oil, rogaine with azelaic acid (applied topically). I would only drink once or sometimes twice a week but I would drink hard sometimes. My ALT levels were 137 and AST were 59. My liver hurt a little bit. I went to the DR. He said "just get off the supplements". Well that wasn't enough! I took matters in my own hands. I started taking Liv 52 @ 2 pill--3 times a day. In 3 weeks I'm at 64 ALT and normal AST (25). My enzymes dropped over half! In 3 weeks I will take another blood panel to see if there is any progress. Now I'm taking Maximum Milk Thistle with the Liv 52. I also have some SAMe on hand as well. My questions are:
    1. Anybody hear about regular supplements causing liver damage. Of the products mentioned which one would or could stand out as the culprit?
    2. Can alcohol mix poorly with supps.??
    3. Would a topically applied supplement such as Sustain be easier on the liver than any type of orally adminstered supplement.
    4. I'm 34 and I need some hormone help from time to time, what would be the safest and most effective supp. that doesn't mess with your liver.
    5. Last question: Can you take Liv52, milk thistle, and SAMe at the same time?

    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Legendary


  15. Liver enzymes are also raised significantly after an intense workout as well.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    Alcohol, even if just hard once or twice a week can throw off your alt ast pretty easily. I'm speaking from experience. Although it's weird your liver hurt at those levels. Mine didn't hurt until I was in the 500's and high 180's alt/ast
    I mean it didn't hurt like hell or anything but i had a dull ache under my right rib cage. Have you had any other issues since your last high liver enzymes?

  17. This may seem like a dumb question, but at the expense of getting flamed, I will ask anyway. When your liver hurts, what does it feel like? I am not sure if I am asking the right question.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by BifWebster View Post
    Liver enzymes are also raised significantly after an intense workout as well.
    And which "specific" liver function enzymes are you referring to exactly? FAR TOO OFTEN are liver function results are skewed as to their actual clinical indication or significance. This is mainly due to the typical "broscience" of lab result interpretation, and not the actual medical significance or reality behind what is being physiologically demonstrated through these test results.

    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Legendary


  19. I'm sure everybody is different, but the two times I've had elevated enzymes, I've had just a slight slight ache or this isn't quite right feeling just below the right portion of your rib cage. It seems that you don't have really bad pain but an ache.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Trauma1 View Post
    And which "specific" liver function enzymes are you referring to exactly? FAR TOO OFTEN are liver function results skewed as to their actual indication or significance. This is mainly due to the typical "broscience" of lab result interpretation, and not the actual medical significance or reality behind what is being physiologically demonstrated through these test results.
    Please elaborate. You might be on to something.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by ABNRanger View Post
    This may seem like a dumb question, but at the expense of getting flamed, I will ask anyway. When your liver hurts, what does it feel like? I am not sure if I am asking the right question.
    That largely depends on the pathology behind it to begin with. Most people don't realize that your gallbladder and pancreas are also located in the right upper quadrant of you abdomen. Extensive diagnositc testing along with a physical exam corrolation needs to be completed to determine what the underlying cause, or differential diagnosis is.

    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Legendary


  22. Quote Originally Posted by clint3612 View Post
    Please elaborate. You might be on to something.
    I did a whole thread on understanding liver fuction testing and its clinical significance. I'll have to find it, and link you when i do. I'd be happy to help answer what questions i can as well.

    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Legendary


  23. Quote Originally Posted by Trauma1 View Post
    That largely depends on the pathology behind it to begin with. Most people don't realize that your gallbladder and pancreas are also located in the right upper quadrant of you abdomen. Extensive diagnositc testing along with a physical exam corrolation needs to be completed to determine what the underlying cause, or differential diagnosis is.
    Very true... I had one other elevated liver episode just over a year ago. I did a supplement cycle then with a couple of nights of hard drinking. Then i had a 103 ALT and 55 AST. After 3 weeks I was back in normal range. I had a CAT scan and all of my organs were considered normal. So, I don't know what the big clinical or diagnostic picture is????

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Trauma1 View Post
    I did a whole thread on understanding liver fuction testing and its clinical significance. I'll have to find it, and link you when i do. I'd be happy to help answer what questions i can as well.
    Cool, that would be great! Again, I'm not taking another drink for maybe a whole year. After I get my liver enzymes back wayyyy below normal (hopefully). I may flirt with some natural test boosters and compare liver values and see what the culprit really is??

  25. I'm curious as to what you consider "hard drinking" per say....


    Quote Originally Posted by Trauma1 View Post
    And which "specific" liver function enzymes are you referring to exactly? FAR TOO OFTEN are liver function results are skewed as to their actual clinical indication or significance. This is mainly due to the typical "broscience" of lab result interpretation, and not the actual medical significance or reality behind what is being physiologically demonstrated through these test results.
    This post bothers the **** out of me. I hate when people make a post just to call someone else out on their potential misconception and completely leave out any trace of the useful information that they do not seem to want to grace the rest of us with...

  26. Quote Originally Posted by clint3612 View Post
    Cool, that would be great! Again, I'm not taking another drink for maybe a whole year. After I get my liver enzymes back wayyyy below normal (hopefully). I may flirt with some natural test boosters and compare liver values and see what the culprit really is??
    Your testing results are most likely due to alcohol ingestion based on what you've said, but there is no way to be certain based on word of mouth alone what the potential cause was to begin with. To what significance you do drink, i don't know, but it will affect your liver function in a similar the manner that's displayed.

    Anything that's metabolized by the liver (or hepatically) will cause stress on the liver to varying degrees. Alcohol is one of the more common culprits overall, but many common medications such as tylenol (acetaminophen) or motrin (ibuprofen) also cause a degree of stress to metabolize.

    ALT is MUCH more significant than AST in terms of actual hepatic (liver) damage or cell death being demonstrated. Something that would be considered "clinically significant" would be an ALT 3-4x the median baseline normal level (or a minimum of an ALT in the 3-400's.), however even with that being said, other liver fuction tests (or diagnostic interventions such as ultrasound, ct scan, or ercp/endoscopy) need to be correlated with those results to determine the actual origin of concern. In other words, far too often people base conclusions on information that is either incomplete, or

    I've seen ALT levels over 3000 in instances of acute hepatits (which can have a multitude of actual causes ranging from a viral to chemical component)

    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Legendary


  27. Quote Originally Posted by ShiftyCapone View Post
    I'm curious as to what you consider "hard drinking" per say....




    This post bothers the **** out of me. I hate when people make a post just to call someone else out on their potential misconception and completely leave out any trace of the useful information that they do not seem to want to grace the rest of us with...
    Lol! - Misconception huh? So what clinical experience or knowledge do you have in medicine exactly?

    This is the internet, do you honestly think that people give an honest or truthful history behind their issue to begin with, let alone the numerous unknown variables that are often not disclosed? I think you need to look around more there noob and you'll find all the "information" i've posted that you're looking for.

    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Legendary


  28. Quote Originally Posted by Trauma1 View Post
    Lol! - Misconception huh? So what clinical experience or knowledge do you have in medicine exactly?

    This is the internet, do you honestly think that people give an honest or truthful history behind their issue to begin with, let alone the numerous unknown variables that are often not disclosed. I think you need to look around more there noob and you'll find all the "information" i've posted that you're looking for.
    Clearly you're lacking experience in reading and comprehension. I was referring to the fact that he mentioned something that you were referring to as being potentially incorrect. That would be a misconception on his part.

    And I was not directing that post only at you per say. It just bothers me when people come on here and say that someone is incorrect in their statement, but they offer little to no advice as far as a correction is concerned...

    I was simply trying to hint at the fact that I would be very interested to hear where he went wrong and I'm sure there are others out there that feel the same way. It's like you butted into a conversation to say "Nope, you're wrong" and then left. That's cool that he's wrong and all, I mean, these things do tend to happen. But please include some useful information. Thanks...

  29. Oh, and I really appreciate you jumping in and calling me a noob and further personal attacks. That was very well handled....especially from a company representative standpoint.
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