Weird liver scare.

[clint3612]

I actually had a weird instance. I only took Diesel Test Hardcore for 4 weeks, @ 4 tabs a day. In conjunction I took 4 pills of primaforce cissus, superpump, glucosomine, saw palmetto, fish oil, rogaine with azelaic acid (applied topically). I would only drink once or sometimes twice a week but I would drink hard sometimes. My ALT levels were 137 and AST were 59. My liver hurt a little bit. I went to the DR. He said "just get off the supplements". Well that wasn't enough! I took matters in my own hands. I started taking Liv 52 @ 2 pill--3 times a day. In 3 weeks I'm at 64 ALT and normal AST (25). My enzymes dropped over half! In 3 weeks I will take another blood panel to see if there is any progress. Now I'm taking Maximum Milk Thistle with the Liv 52. I also have some SAMe on hand as well. My questions are:
1. Anybody hear about regular supplements causing liver damage. Of the products mentioned which one would or could stand out as the culprit?
2. Can alcohol mix poorly with supps.??
3. Would a topically applied supplement such as Sustain be easier on the liver than any type of orally adminstered supplement.
4. I'm 34 and I need some hormone help from time to time, what would be the safest and most effective supp. that doesn't mess with your liver.
5. Last question: Can you take Liv52, milk thistle, and SAMe at the same time?

 

[Random181]

I really cannot see any of those supplements having any bad effects on the liver, if you drink once or twice a week sometimes hard then that would most likely be what was messing up your liver, I wouldnt worry about restarting the supps, just lay off the booze so much

 

[dsade]

Agreed - be more reasonable in your consumption.

I recommend Vodka and Pepto Bismol.

 

[clint3612]

Ya'll really think it's the alcohol consumption rather than the supplements??

 

[papapumpsd]

So, you're drinking alcohol (a known liver toxin) "hard" and you think some supplements are causing the elevated enzyme? Clever.

Just stop drinking so hard.

If you're going to try to pinpoint the cause of something, you don't change multiple factors at once. You would, for example, continue with you supplements but cut out all alcohol, then get re-tested. You wouldn't stop both supps and drinking simultaneously. Otherwise you won't know what really caused the issue in the first place (this should be painfully obvious).

 

[Mjolnir]

Yeah it is most likely just the alcohol. When you drink heavy is when you will feel more pain in your liver and your liver bloodwork will be higher, even if its just once a week. Doctors are normally very unfamiliar with supplements and will blame them first for anything. Not really a bad idea on their part since it is unknown to them plus he may just think that you are taking prohormones and that is why your liver is wack. But anyway taking Milk Thisthle, Liv 52, and SAMe together will not cause any reactions or problems. Now if you have taken PHs or roids in the past or if gallbladder issues run in the family you may want to try some liverlonger.

 

[clint3612]

So, you're drinking alcohol (a known liver toxin) "hard" and you think some supplements are causing the elevated enzyme? Clever.

Just stop drinking so hard.

If you're going to try to pinpoint the cause of something, you don't change multiple factors at once. You would, for example, continue with you supplements but cut out all alcohol, then get re-tested. You wouldn't stop both supps and drinking simultaneously. Otherwise you won't know what really caused the issue in the first place (this should be painfully obvious).

Even though you were condesending, you may have a point. I didn't think that once a week of hard drinking would knock my enzymes out of whack so much. The reason I quit everything, is the DR. told me to purge everything out of my system. So thats what I did.

 

[clint3612]

Another reason I was thinking it was the supplements. is because you don't hear about anybody having liver issues with alcohol on this board. I know drinking is hard but I thought as infrequent as i consumed (although hard) it wouldn't have lasting effects on my liver functions.

 

[Mjolnir]

You can die from drinking too much alcohol just once. Depending on the amount you have, your age, genetics, and what your liver has already been through so far in life, is how it will effect you at that current time. I doubt you have serious permanent damage done to your liver especially considering the fact that you already dropped your enzymes in half. So no real worry there.

 

[RedwolfWV]

Ya'll really think it's the alcohol consumption rather than the supplements??

There is no doubt in my mind.

 

[clint3612]

I think what I'm gonna do is stay off everything for awhile. I'll take the Liv52 and milk thistle and check my liver functions every 3 weeks for 3 months and do a average of my liver enzymes. If i consistently have average enzymes then I may start a DTH 3-4 week cycle, then test my enzyme levels and do a comparison. This will definitely tell me what the supplements are doing or not doing to my body. I will not drink another drink until maybe 2010 or so. Its not worth it these days!

 

[TTewell]

When was the test done? Even a day or 2 after a hard night of drinking, liver values can still be elevated, even if there is no actual damage.

 

[Jayhawkk]

Alcohol, even if just hard once or twice a week can throw off your alt ast pretty easily. I'm speaking from experience. Although it's weird your liver hurt at those levels. Mine didn't hurt until I was in the 500's and high 180's alt/ast

 

[Trauma1]

I actually had a weird instance. I only took Diesel Test Hardcore for 4 weeks, @ 4 tabs a day. In conjunction I took 4 pills of primaforce cissus, superpump, glucosomine, saw palmetto, fish oil, rogaine with azelaic acid (applied topically). I would only drink once or sometimes twice a week but I would drink hard sometimes. My ALT levels were 137 and AST were 59. My liver hurt a little bit. I went to the DR. He said "just get off the supplements". Well that wasn't enough! I took matters in my own hands. I started taking Liv 52 @ 2 pill--3 times a day. In 3 weeks I'm at 64 ALT and normal AST (25). My enzymes dropped over half! In 3 weeks I will take another blood panel to see if there is any progress. Now I'm taking Maximum Milk Thistle with the Liv 52. I also have some SAMe on hand as well. My questions are:
1. Anybody hear about regular supplements causing liver damage. Of the products mentioned which one would or could stand out as the culprit?
2. Can alcohol mix poorly with supps.??
3. Would a topically applied supplement such as Sustain be easier on the liver than any type of orally adminstered supplement.
4. I'm 34 and I need some hormone help from time to time, what would be the safest and most effective supp. that doesn't mess with your liver.
5. Last question: Can you take Liv52, milk thistle, and SAMe at the same time?

:frustrate

 

[BifWebster]

Liver enzymes are also raised significantly after an intense workout as well.

 

[clint3612]

Alcohol, even if just hard once or twice a week can throw off your alt ast pretty easily. I'm speaking from experience. Although it's weird your liver hurt at those levels. Mine didn't hurt until I was in the 500's and high 180's alt/ast

I mean it didn't hurt like hell or anything but i had a dull ache under my right rib cage. Have you had any other issues since your last high liver enzymes?

 

[ABNRanger]

This may seem like a dumb question, but at the expense of getting flamed, I will ask anyway. When your liver hurts, what does it feel like? I am not sure if I am asking the right question.

 

[Trauma1]

Liver enzymes are also raised significantly after an intense workout as well.

And which "specific" liver function enzymes are you referring to exactly? FAR TOO OFTEN are liver function results are skewed as to their actual clinical indication or significance. This is mainly due to the typical "broscience" of lab result interpretation, and not the actual medical significance or reality behind what is being physiologically demonstrated through these test results.

 

[clint3612]

I'm sure everybody is different, but the two times I've had elevated enzymes, I've had just a slight slight ache or this isn't quite right feeling just below the right portion of your rib cage. It seems that you don't have really bad pain but an ache.

 

[clint3612]

And which "specific" liver function enzymes are you referring to exactly? FAR TOO OFTEN are liver function results skewed as to their actual indication or significance. This is mainly due to the typical "broscience" of lab result interpretation, and not the actual medical significance or reality behind what is being physiologically demonstrated through these test results.

Please elaborate. You might be on to something.

 

[Trauma1]

This may seem like a dumb question, but at the expense of getting flamed, I will ask anyway. When your liver hurts, what does it feel like? I am not sure if I am asking the right question.

That largely depends on the pathology behind it to begin with. Most people don't realize that your gallbladder and pancreas are also located in the right upper quadrant of you abdomen. Extensive diagnositc testing along with a physical exam corrolation needs to be completed to determine what the underlying cause, or differential diagnosis is.

 

[Trauma1]

Please elaborate. You might be on to something.

I did a whole thread on understanding liver fuction testing and its clinical significance. I'll have to find it, and link you when i do. I'd be happy to help answer what questions i can as well.

 

[clint3612]

That largely depends on the pathology behind it to begin with. Most people don't realize that your gallbladder and pancreas are also located in the right upper quadrant of you abdomen. Extensive diagnositc testing along with a physical exam corrolation needs to be completed to determine what the underlying cause, or differential diagnosis is.

Very true... I had one other elevated liver episode just over a year ago. I did a supplement cycle then with a couple of nights of hard drinking. Then i had a 103 ALT and 55 AST. After 3 weeks I was back in normal range. I had a CAT scan and all of my organs were considered normal. So, I don't know what the big clinical or diagnostic picture is????

 

[clint3612]

I did a whole thread on understanding liver fuction testing and its clinical significance. I'll have to find it, and link you when i do. I'd be happy to help answer what questions i can as well.

Cool, that would be great! Again, I'm not taking another drink for maybe a whole year. After I get my liver enzymes back wayyyy below normal (hopefully). I may flirt with some natural test boosters and compare liver values and see what the culprit really is??

 

[ShiftyCapone]

I'm curious as to what you consider "hard drinking" per say....

And which "specific" liver function enzymes are you referring to exactly? FAR TOO OFTEN are liver function results are skewed as to their actual clinical indication or significance. This is mainly due to the typical "broscience" of lab result interpretation, and not the actual medical significance or reality behind what is being physiologically demonstrated through these test results.

This post bothers the **** out of me. I hate when people make a post just to call someone else out on their potential misconception and completely leave out any trace of the useful information that they do not seem to want to grace the rest of us with...

 

[Trauma1]

Cool, that would be great! Again, I'm not taking another drink for maybe a whole year. After I get my liver enzymes back wayyyy below normal (hopefully). I may flirt with some natural test boosters and compare liver values and see what the culprit really is??

Your testing results are most likely due to alcohol ingestion based on what you've said, but there is no way to be certain based on word of mouth alone what the potential cause was to begin with. To what significance you do drink, i don't know, but it will affect your liver function in a similar the manner that's displayed.

Anything that's metabolized by the liver (or hepatically) will cause stress on the liver to varying degrees. Alcohol is one of the more common culprits overall, but many common medications such as tylenol (acetaminophen) or motrin (ibuprofen) also cause a degree of stress to metabolize.

ALT is MUCH more significant than AST in terms of actual hepatic (liver) damage or cell death being demonstrated. Something that would be considered "clinically significant" would be an ALT 3-4x the median baseline normal level (or a minimum of an ALT in the 3-400's.), however even with that being said, other liver fuction tests (or diagnostic interventions such as ultrasound, ct scan, or ercp/endoscopy) need to be correlated with those results to determine the actual origin of concern. In other words, far too often people base conclusions on information that is either incomplete, or

I've seen ALT levels over 3000 in instances of acute hepatits (which can have a multitude of actual causes ranging from a viral to chemical component)

 

[Trauma1]

I'm curious as to what you consider "hard drinking" per say....




This post bothers the **** out of me. I hate when people make a post just to call someone else out on their potential misconception and completely leave out any trace of the useful information that they do not seem to want to grace the rest of us with...

Lol! - Misconception huh? So what clinical experience or knowledge do you have in medicine exactly?

This is the internet, do you honestly think that people give an honest or truthful history behind their issue to begin with, let alone the numerous unknown variables that are often not disclosed? I think you need to look around more there noob and you'll find all the "information" i've posted that you're looking for.

 

[Trauma1]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/97125-article-oral-anabolic.html

 

[ShiftyCapone]

Lol! - Misconception huh? So what clinical experience or knowledge do you have in medicine exactly?

This is the internet, do you honestly think that people give an honest or truthful history behind their issue to begin with, let alone the numerous unknown variables that are often not disclosed. I think you need to look around more there noob and you'll find all the "information" i've posted that you're looking for.

Clearly you're lacking experience in reading and comprehension. I was referring to the fact that he mentioned something that you were referring to as being potentially incorrect. That would be a misconception on his part.

And I was not directing that post only at you per say. It just bothers me when people come on here and say that someone is incorrect in their statement, but they offer little to no advice as far as a correction is concerned...

I was simply trying to hint at the fact that I would be very interested to hear where he went wrong and I'm sure there are others out there that feel the same way. It's like you butted into a conversation to say "Nope, you're wrong" and then left. That's cool that he's wrong and all, I mean, these things do tend to happen. But please include some useful information. Thanks...

 

[ShiftyCapone]

Oh, and I really appreciate you jumping in and calling me a noob and further personal attacks. That was very well handled....especially from a company representative standpoint.

 

[Trauma1]

Clearly you're lacking experience in reading and comprehension. I was referring to the fact that he mentioned something that you were referring to as being potentially incorrect. That would be a misconception on his part.

And I was not directing that post just at you per say. It just bothers me when people come on here and say that someone is incorrect in their statement, but they offer little to no advice as far as a correction is concerned...

I was simply trying to hint at the fact that I would be very interested to hear where he went wrong and I'm sure there are others out there that feel the same way. It's like you butted into a conversation to say "Nope, you're wrong" and then left. That's cool that he's wrong and all, I mean, these things do tend to happen. But please include some useful information. Thanks...

Wow......read my response again there einstein. What about my statement was unclear? Better yet, please point out where i said he was wrong? READ THE FIRST SENTENCE OF MY RESPONSE!

Liver enzymes are also raised significantly after an intense workout as well.

And which "specific" liver function enzymes are you referring to exactly? FAR TOO OFTEN are liver function results are skewed as to their actual clinical indication or significance. This is mainly due to the typical "broscience" of lab result interpretation, and not the actual medical significance or reality behind what is being physiologically demonstrated through these test results.

You're the one who clearly lacks "reading comprehension" of my very clearly implied statement. My god....

 

[Trauma1]

Oh, and I really appreciate you jumping in and calling me a noob and further personal attacks. That was very well handled....especially from a company representative standpoint.

Search.....it's your friend. at:

 

[JaredGalloway]

this thread is all too funny...oh and to the OP DTH is a NATURAL supplement...it will not hurt ur liver enzymes...cause if it did i would most likely be dead or seriously ill(i have an unusually high levels of bilirubin)...drinking is always the culprit...it messes much more up than just ur liver enzymes...

 

[ShiftyCapone]

Liver enzymes are also raised significantly after an intense workout as well.

And which "specific" liver function enzymes are you referring to exactly? FAR TOO OFTEN are liver function results are skewed as to their actual clinical indication or significance. This is mainly due to the typical "broscience" of lab result interpretation, and not the actual medical significance or reality behind what is being physiologically demonstrated through these test results.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but you're implying that a common "broscience" misconception exists? Therefore, you're saying that he COULD possibly be incorrect in his statement because he did not specify which particular liver function enzymes (or their respective test values) he was referring

So, I'm not sure what you're flipping out about guy. But I was just asking you to elaborate and include a little bit of useful information in your post. Because you're right, this is the internet and people post a bunch of random bullshit and it is up to us to sift through it to find the facts. By the sounds of it, you have done a lot of lab work in regards to liver function. That's great. Why not spread that knowledge on to others? Do you see what I mean when I say that your ORIGINAL post was a bit empty?

 

[Trauma1]

this thread is all too funny...oh and to the OP DTH is a NATURAL supplement...it will not hurt ur liver enzymes...cause if it did i would most likely be dead or seriously ill(i have an unusually high levels of bilirubin)...drinking is always the culprit...it messes much more up than just ur liver enzymes...

It is.

I love when people spout off B.S. in a response when they clearly haven't comprehended what they've just read (not in reference to you either)...:frustrate

 

[madds87]

Stop the drinking! Plus i understand beer makes the women look prettier but cmon man you deserve better! Plus i dont know how a simple natural test booster would hurt your liver. Maybe i have an iron liver, i dunno. But if its those little meager supplements that hurt yah i would just stick to protien. But considering the fact that its prob the booz i would have a beer on a special occasion. I meen very seldom. Dandelion root is good and so is the liv 52. the liv 52 is just don right expensive. I just stick with milk thistle(sp? look funny to me), I take about 2000 millig. I also take medicine so that why i take it regularly. milkT and dandeR are my too favorite. I also consider my liver's health i get my blood checked every 3 months sometimes more. SO this stuff does work. got it? Hope things go well, and hope your liver will start acting right!

 

[ShiftyCapone]

I love when people spout off B.S. in a response when they clearly haven't comprehended what they've just read (not in reference to you either)...:frustrate

Haha, well put....

I'm not exactly sure how my asking for some clarification or further explanation constitutes as B.S. but that's life. You just got pissed off because I quoted your post and said that you didn't leave any useful information in that particular post. You really should relax a bit more...

Oh, and thank you for posting this useful information, after... I'm looking forward to it. Good day chief...

 

[Trauma1]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but you're implying that a common "broscience" misconception exists? Therefore, you're saying that he COULD possibly be incorrect in his statement because he did not specify which particular liver function enzymes (or their respective test values) he was referring

Correct. And never did i say he was specifically "wrong" about anything he posted.

So, I'm not sure what you're flipping out about guy. But I was just asking you to elaborate and include a little bit of useful information in your post. Because you're right, this is the internet and people post a bunch of random bullshit and it is up to us to sift through it to find the facts. By the sounds of it, you have done a lot of lab work in regards to liver function. That's great. Why not spread that knowledge on to others? Do you see what I mean when I say that your ORIGINAL post was a bit empty?

I'm not flipping out about anything at all. It was tough to see you asking me to elaborate on anything based on your initial sarcastic posting, or is that what you typically do when requesting an educated response?

Yep, i've worked many years in a clinical setting (emergency nursing), so i'm fairly well versed in diagnostic lab test interpretation. However, this is the internet, so take it for what it's worth.

Lol, empty? I call that a subjective interpretation, so take it for whatever you perceive it as. If you'd like a detailed explanation, just ask me. I don't tolerate sarcasm well, especially after the day i've had today. I'm not hear to argue, so if you wish to continue an intelligent discourse, i'm game.







.

 

[Trauma1]

Haha, well put....

I'm not exactly sure how my asking for some clarification or further explanation constitutes as B.S. but that's life. You just got pissed off because I quoted your post and said that you didn't leave any useful information in that particular post. You really should relax a bit more...

Oh, and thank you for posting this useful information, after... I'm looking forward to it. Good day chief...

Lol! I'll surely take THAT for what it's worth......

:tool:

 

[LilPsychotic]

I've seen instances of elevated liver enzymes with creatine

 

[Jayhawkk]

Just jumping in to say it's "per se"

 

[Trauma1]

Just jumping in to say it's "per se"

:boobies:

 

[JaredGalloway]

:boobies:

Not to hijack the thread but where did u study...just wondering...

 

[Trauma1]

Not to hijack the thread but where did u study...just wondering...

Nursing? Uconn. Currently enrolled at USF to attain my MSN (ARNP - Advanced Registered Nurse Practitoner.)

 

[MedicineMan]

An AST to ALT ratio is a quick and dirty way of determining if enzyme levels are elevated from alcohol consumption. Generally 2:1 AST to ALT ratio is a good indicator of alcohol abuse. Its not a rule though. AST is expressed in liver and muscle and because alcohol is muscle toxic you can get elevations in AST from drinking. Your ALT was significantly higher than AST indicating like someone previously mentioned that this is more likely a liver specific problem. I dont think you can draw the conclusion that this came from the supplemens you were taking. I also dont feel that this elevation is only from drinking. You stated that your RUQ hurt just under your rib cage and in my experience patients with liver enzymes in your range dont have any pain unless there is something else going on such as gallbladder disease or pancreatitis.

 

[clint3612]

An AST to ALT ratio is a quick and dirty way of determining if enzyme levels are elevated from alcohol consumption. Generally 2:1 AST to ALT ratio is a good indicator of alcohol abuse. Its not a rule though. AST is expressed in liver and muscle and because alcohol is muscle toxic you can get elevations in AST from drinking. Your ALT was significantly higher than AST indicating like someone previously mentioned that this is more likely a liver specific problem. I dont think you can draw the conclusion that this came from the supplemens you were taking. I also dont feel that this elevation is only from drinking. You stated that your RUQ hurt just under your rib cage and in my experience patients with liver enzymes in your range dont have any pain unless there is something else going on such as gallbladder disease or pancreatitis.

So do enzymes fluctuate with absistence from chemicals and alcohol? I mean I've seen a downward progression since I stopped taking supps. or injesting alcohol. And I saw a increase when taking the above mentioned products. Furthermore, what type of pancreas or gall issues could this be? It seems that acute pancreatitis is pretty severe pain and I don't have anything near severe!

 

[JaredGalloway]

Nursing? Uconn. Currently enrolled at USF to attain my MSN (ARNP - Advanced Registered Nurse Practitoner.)

awesome....my sis is just about to finish that (graduated from vandy with double masters and double bachelors now about to finish Nurse Practitioner and Mid-Wifery)...i think she is about to finish that from vandy's graduate program but i dont remember...shes working as an intern now with 12 hours shifts on the cancer wing in nashville...i dont know too much about it just thought it was interesting that i knew someone with kinda the same thing going on...

 

[Trauma1]

awesome....my sis is just about to finish that (graduated from vandy with double masters and double bachelors now about to finish Nurse Practitioner and Mid-Wifery)...i think she is about to finish that from vandy's graduate program but i dont remember...shes working as an intern now with 12 hours shifts on the cancer wing in nashville...i dont know too much about it just thought it was interesting that i knew someone with kinda the same thing going on...

Great to hear! I wish her much success.