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    Quote Originally Posted by OrganicShadow

    Day to day for gains or cut no. At one time we thought you should never mix carbs and fats between meals either... Like cutting one and switching to the other after 2pm, also with the idea that you shouldn't have carbs at all after like 4. Then again, at one time we thought the earth was flat.

    I avoid mixing the two in high amounts/frequency because of the hormonal cascade that arises between insulin and cholesterol synthesis and all those other wonderful happenings of heart disease.

    -OS-Team App Nut.
    If Miss Q or yourself don't mind I'd like to see some info on the cascade of hormones that are related to carb and fat intake timing; in regards to heart disease...

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    I would be interested as well i always mix p,c,f, except pre and post
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrganicShadow View Post
    Day to day for gains or cut no. At one time we thought you should never mix carbs and fats between meals either... Like cutting one and switching to the other after 2pm, also with the idea that you shouldn't have carbs at all after like 4. Then again, at one time we thought the earth was flat.

    I avoid mixing the two in high amounts/frequency because of the hormonal cascade that arises between insulin and cholesterol synthesis and all those other wonderful happenings of heart disease.

    -OS-Team App Nut.

    I still think the earth is flat

    Right....I guess I meant mixing higher fatty foods w/ a lot of carbs and when I think of eating foods that might have a good bit of butter added in I would def try to be careful. VALDEZ- I obviously eat the 2 combined but try to be careful about it since I was a former fatty and as far as a report goes about it causing heart disease.....I had no idea about that??!!??

    Guess it's all in what works best individually....and maybe it is a myth....who knows??!!??
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    Diggin the new avi Q!! Is that recent??
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    Quote Originally Posted by gokix811 View Post
    Diggin the new avi Q!! Is that recent??
    I was wondering the same
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Q

    Your right, but I ate oatmeal at breakfast and I don't love the idea of mixing fats and carbs!!!

    Either all fat's and protein or carbs and lean protein!!!! Right??
    I'm sure there are studies supporting both but me mixing the two equals feeling like garbage unless I'm depleted and its a one time cheat meal if that's the case I still feel like crap but usually only for a short time.

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    Think I heard that too.
    Fats & protein.
    Carbs & protein.

    Myself I'm just trying to low carb it, cause almost everything I touch has at least some carbs in it...
    Just try to not go crazy w/processed carbs & eat a ton in 1 meal.
    On one hand I do eat "Muscle Sandwiches" which are carbs, protein, & fat... 13g of protein, 16g of fat, & 25g of carbs... :/
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    Agreed I think it's always individual I was just posting my experiences. Looking great in that new Avi keep kicking ass

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    Haha Aaron you are looking great in that new Avi as well bud lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bean5er
    Haha Aaron you are looking great in that new Avi as well bud lol.

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    Of course, what was mentioned is along the line of thinking I had upon my own research but this is what I've found in surmise:

    Insulin is an anabolic hormone in that it upregulates the synthesis of cholesterol. Now that's not necessarily a bad thing, sex hormones are made from cholesterol and post workout AMPK is more active to shuttle movement of cholesterol to new hormones and cell tissue components (insulin shuts down phosphorylation for those enzymes but, IMO - thats the only negligible circumstance where it isn't significant compared to the concentration of active cAMP.) When there's a large amount of building blocks available then insulin will stimulate high production of serum cholesterol through diet. This is where the potential of dietary cholesterol can raise totals in the blood. You can eat as many egg yolks as you like it doesn't matter (unless you're sensitive to AA) but add a bagel and some chocolate milk and it's not so pretty. The bile duct and liver control how much cholesterol is produced based on need and keep the system in check but dietary habits that frequent carb/fat intake simultaneously can cause high blood cholesterol - not total intake. For example: bea5er's refeed is a once awhile happening so the liver can act accordingly to keep his cholesterol at a balance but that guy getting his daily for his burger and a coke, between impending insulin resistance and high frequency high GI/fat intake, is in for it.

    Cholesterol: Synthesis, Metabolism, Regulation
    ^Basics on cholesterol. God resource.
    http://www.jlr.org/content/45/3/507.full.pdf
    ^Here's a thorough study
    Carbs and Cholesterol
    ^Bashes saturated fat but quick and effective outline on insulin/cholesterol
    High-Density Lipoprotein Function in Regulating Insulin Secretion: Possible Relevance to Metabolic Syndrome
    ^When insulin sensitivity decreases

    All in all most of the literature you'll find has to do with insulin resistance and hypercholesterolemia. My thought is the vast majority of us don't fit into this category although insulin sensitivity does dull with age naturally. All said and done my thought it that it's ok to do it - just not all the time or in super high volumes, and pick times of insulin sensitivity (after a period of fasting or exercise).
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrganicShadow
    Of course, what was mentioned is along the line of thinking I had upon my own research but this is what I've found in surmise:

    Insulin is an anabolic hormone in that it upregulates the synthesis of cholesterol. Now that's not necessarily a bad thing, sex hormones are made from cholesterol and post workout AMPK is more active to shuttle movement of cholesterol to new hormones and cell tissue components (insulin shuts down phosphorylation for those enzymes but, IMO - thats the only negligible circumstance where it isn't significant compared to the concentration of active cAMP.) When there's a large amount of building blocks available then insulin will stimulate high production of serum cholesterol through diet. This is where the potential of dietary cholesterol can raise totals in the blood. You can eat as many egg yolks as you like it doesn't matter (unless you're sensitive to AA) but add a bagel and some chocolate milk and it's not so pretty. The bile duct and liver control how much cholesterol is produced based on need and keep the system in check but dietary habits that frequent carb/fat intake simultaneously can cause high blood cholesterol - not total intake. For example: bea5er's refeed is a once awhile happening so the liver can act accordingly to keep his cholesterol at a balance but that guy getting his daily for his burger and a coke, between impending insulin resistance and high frequency high GI/fat intake, is in for it.

    Cholesterol: Synthesis, Metabolism, Regulation
    ^Basics on cholesterol. God resource.
    http://www.jlr.org/content/45/3/507.full.pdf
    ^Here's a thorough study
    Carbs and Cholesterol
    ^Bashes saturated fat but quick and effective outline on insulin/cholesterol
    High-Density Lipoprotein Function in Regulating Insulin Secretion: Possible Relevance to Metabolic Syndrome
    ^When insulin sensitivity decreases

    All in all most of the literature you'll find has to do with insulin resistance and hypercholesterolemia. My thought is the vast majority of us don't fit into this category although insulin sensitivity does dull with age naturally. All said and done my thought it that it's ok to do it - just not all the time or in super high volumes, and pick times of insulin sensitivity (after a period of fasting or exercise).
    I'm not even going to pretend WTF that first report said holy ****. You definitely have the upper hand in understanding that one. Differences in career education for sure : )

    However, (unless i missed something) my interpretation of the following 2 is somewhat different than yours. The second study listed "refined carbs" as the carb source and yes, refined carbs 90% of the time = bad. I am a huge advocate of avoiding simple carbs for sure.

    The last study didn't specify carb source so I don't really know what to make of it, but its definitely interesting to see the correlation of cholesterol and insulin sensitivity.

    As always, good read OS and thank you for throwing up the info. I think we can agree on when and when not to use carbs but in my opinion the no carbs and fats together mind set is totally over played.

    - Valdez
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    The hard part is most of these studies are tailored to simulate circumstances with diabetes mellitus or metabolic syndrome because that's how they get their grant money to conduct this study otherwise it has little clinical relevance to prevalent epidemic conditions hence the use of refined sugars or testing DM patients. It's hard to find studies on stuff like this using healthy individuals. So take it for what it's worth - like I said, moderation.

    The first image of the Kreb's cycle is a familiar cartoon but the other two I had to sit with for a bit and digest. The whole HMG-CoA thing is something knew I'm a geek and learning about in my free time.
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    I must be heading down heart disease city because I eat everything all the time and I don't time ****.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrganicShadow
    The hard part is most of these studies are tailored to simulate circumstances with diabetes mellitus or metabolic syndrome because that's how they get their grant money to conduct this study otherwise it has little clinical relevance to prevalent epidemic conditions hence the use of refined sugars or testing DM patients. It's hard to find studies on stuff like this using healthy individuals. So take it for what it's worth - like I said, moderation.

    The first image of the Kreb's cycle is a familiar cartoon but the other two I had to sit with for a bit and digest. The whole HMG-CoA thing is something knew I'm a geek and learning about in my free time.
    Not to mention the variables in human test subjects. Don't take what I said as me dismissing bud, you know me I'm just strong in my opinions as are you. If you come up on any new studies like that let me know I'll do the same, I'm always game for some debate : )

    Cholesterol is a tricky thing too, the studies are constantly coming up with new info. I've read a few research articles that say at this time the mechanism of either cholesterol - HDL or LDL are still not entirely understood and that there may not be a "bad" one...

    - Valdez
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    So you guys are recommending to split the macros and eat them how? Because after reading all this I am seriously reconsidering my meal plans lol...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    Not to mention the variables in human test subjects. Don't take what I said as me dismissing bud, you know me I'm just strong in my opinions as are you. If you come up on any new studies like that let me know I'll do the same, I'm always game for some debate : )

    Cholesterol is a tricky thing too, the studies are constantly coming up with new info. I've read a few research articles that say at this time the mechanism of either cholesterol - HDL or LDL are still not entirely understood and that there may not be a "bad" one...

    - Valdez
    No doubt. I didn't think it that way, it was good critiquing and the debates are how we learn. It is tricky because fact of the matter is we really still don't know! It's only been a few decades that we started interpreting lipid panels let alone fully understand the MOA of HDL/LDL/VLDL. And how often have you heard the term chylomicrons? WTF do they do?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJBeanPole View Post
    So you guys are recommending to split the macros and eat them how? Because after reading all this I am seriously reconsidering my meal plans lol...
    I'm proposing that frequent carb/fat meals aren't a good long term health move. I wouldn't freak out over it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrganicShadow View Post
    I'm proposing that frequent carb/fat meals aren't a good long term health move. I wouldn't freak out over it.
    Right on. Only bulking for two more months anyway so I won't be eating like this forever!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJBeanPole

    Right on. Only bulking for two more months anyway so I won't be eating like this forever!
    I may be wrong but I think OS was speaking from a health standpoint. I highly doubt composition would be affected much by carbs and fats at the same time, I think that's more of an old spool bodybuilder trick. And like he pointed out those studies were in unhealthy people. We hit the gym and try to stay in relatively good health so those results may or may not be a concern for us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gokix811 View Post
    Diggin the new avi Q!! Is that recent??
    Quote Originally Posted by Marms View Post
    I was wondering the same
    Why, yes it is!!


    Quote Originally Posted by bean5er View Post
    I'm sure there are studies supporting both but me mixing the two equals feeling like garbage unless I'm depleted and its a one time cheat meal if that's the case I still feel like crap but usually only for a short time.

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    I feel the same if mixing a lot of fats and carbs. Guess it just depends on the meal, for example- eating pizza alway's makes me feel like crap and coma like the next day, so it's best that I avoid it.


    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1 View Post
    Think I heard that too.
    Fats & protein.
    Carbs & protein.

    Myself I'm just trying to low carb it, cause almost everything I touch has at least some carbs in it...
    Just try to not go crazy w/processed carbs & eat a ton in 1 meal.
    On one hand I do eat "Muscle Sandwiches" which are carbs, protein, & fat... 13g of protein, 16g of fat, & 25g of carbs... :/

    Please share the ingrediants of your "Muscle Sandwich" ;0
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJBeanPole View Post
    I must be heading down heart disease city because I eat everything all the time and I don't time ****.

    Example) Your sausage fest weekend!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    I may be wrong but I think OS was speaking from a health standpoint. I highly doubt composition would be affected much by carbs and fats at the same time, I think that's more of an old spool bodybuilder trick. And like he pointed out those studies were in unhealthy people. We hit the gym and try to stay in relatively good health so those results may or may not be a concern for us.

    - Valdez

    Have not read the studies yet but I assume you are talking about combining healthy fats and carbs not crappy fats/carbs??
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    Miss Q looking JACKED in that avatar daaaaaaaamn girrrrrrrrl haha!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Q View Post
    Example) Your sausage fest weekend!!!
    Oh lord don't remind me. The food... the glorious GLORIOUS FOOD!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJBeanPole View Post
    Miss Q looking JACKED in that avatar daaaaaaaamn girrrrrrrrl haha!

    Thanks DJ!!! Funny, cause I've actually been feeling that way lately!!!! Woo Hoo! My old shirt's finally fit me, but are getting tighter in the shoulders and arms at the same time!!


    Quote Originally Posted by DJBeanPole View Post
    Oh lord don't remind me. The food... the glorious GLORIOUS FOOD!
    That list sounded gross and delicious all at the same time
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Q

    Example) Your sausage fest weekend!!!

    Have not read the studies yet but I assume you are talking about combining healthy fats and carbs not crappy fats/carbs??
    That's an excellent point. In the studies they use refined carbs. What would happen when combining complex carbs and healthy fats??? I eat healthy as it is (healthy fats and complex carbs) maybe that is the reason I've never had an issue with the combination.

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    Sunday* Day 41-

    Taken it easy today and will either hit legs later or cardio only depending on the time.
    Dosed one HyperT2 30 mins before my morning oatmeal.


    Here's a back pic taken this past June, before I started dieting. Weight around 160-165 lbs/ B/Fat who knows??!!??
    Name:  028.JPG
Views: 71
Size:  67.1 KB

    Here's a couple of back pics taken last week. Weight around 147 lbs B/Fat around 14-15% (if correct)?? Don't know wat's up w/the color on the 1st one..
    Name:  lecheek 012.JPG
Views: 69
Size:  97.5 KBName:  lecheek 013.JPG
Views: 74
Size:  86.4 KB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Q View Post
    Sunday* Day 41-

    Taken it easy today and will either hit legs later or cardio only depending on the time.
    Dosed one HyperT2 30 mins before my morning oatmeal.


    Here's a back pic taken this past June, before I started dieting. Weight around 160-165 lbs/ B/Fat who knows??!!??
    Name:  028.JPG
Views: 71
Size:  67.1 KB

    Here's a couple of back pics taken last week. Weight around 147 lbs B/Fat around 14-15% (if correct)??
    Name:  lecheek 012.JPG
Views: 69
Size:  97.5 KBName:  lecheek 013.JPG
Views: 74
Size:  86.4 KB
    Very nice work, chic!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Q View Post
    Sunday* Day 41-

    Taken it easy today and will either hit legs later or cardio only depending on the time.
    Dosed one HyperT2 30 mins before my morning oatmeal.


    Here's a back pic taken this past June, before I started dieting. Weight around 160-165 lbs/ B/Fat who knows??!!??
    Name:  028.JPG
Views: 71
Size:  67.1 KB

    Here's a couple of back pics taken last week. Weight around 147 lbs B/Fat around 14-15% (if correct)?? Don't know wat's up w/the color on the 1st one..
    Name:  lecheek 012.JPG
Views: 69
Size:  97.5 KBName:  lecheek 013.JPG
Views: 74
Size:  86.4 KB
    Damn Amy, may I say this was a successful run and also DAMN! Amazing looking Upper back ma'am! Lats/Shoulders/Guns everything! I am impressed!
    >SNS-Glycophase<
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    Great looking log. Results are looking great as well. I agree with Celorza, upper back and shoulders are looking amazing.
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