COMPOUND 20 SOLO Log - Clemenza

[Clemenza]

First I want to say thanks to Strategicmove and USPlabs for sending me a bottle of Compound 20. I was not asked to log this product, but I feel it is the right thing to do. This will be an objective and unbiased log. I do not feel obligated to sway my results just because this was given to me for free. My only obligation to USPlabs is to log it, and my obligation to the AM.com community is to give honest feedback.

I have both positive and negative experiences with USPlabs products.

Jack3d- Never cared for.
OEP- Good fat burner, but over stimmed for me.
Modern BCAA- Great product. Fruit punch extremely refreshing.
Anabolic Pump- One of my all time favorites.

I will be running Compound 20 solo for one full bottle (should last a month). I am currently finishing up a bottle of Alpha T2 (which tops all fat burners I’ve used). I should finish up Alpha T2 within the next few days, so the results should not overlap.


Stats:
27 y/o
5’11
195 lbs.
15.3% BF

Background:
Been weight training for over ten years. Played baseball until the end of college. Many bumps in the road due to injuries over the past 5 years. Noticed my greatest gains through college. Herniated two discs in my lower back (L4-L5/L5-S1) my senior year. Kept me out of the gym throughout most of 2007. Most miserable time of my life. Did everything… chiro, NSAID’s, 3 Epidural Injections, etc. Finally hooked up with a great Physical Therapist, my friend Mike Camp, who actually trains 202 Mr. O, Kevin English and writes monthly for M&F. Mike Camp was the only one who finally got my core strong and back back in order. Began training again in 2008. Faced minor setbacks over the years, as well as a sports hernia which I still have and deal with. I also herniated a disc at T3, which causes neck spasms and occasional pain down my arm. Once again, Mike continues to help me deal with this as well.

Had a great summer in 2011 got down to 180 / 8% BF. Started DC training this past winter, reinjured my upper and lower back. Now I’m back into the swing of things and have to just continue to keep my ego in check and avoid the heavy weights. I now have no choice but to do high rep, drop sets, super sets, pre exhaust type training to remain injury free.
I’m in the middle of searching for the right training routine. I’m at the point now where each muscle group 1x per week just isn’t cutting it. So I’ve been looking into each muscle group ever 5-6 days, or something like Layne Norton’s PHAT, just tweaked to avoid the heavy powerlifting. Unfortunately, on the days I feel ok to do deads and squats, they have to be at the end of my workout and slow and controlled with light weight. I miss the days of throwing 315 on a bar and deadlifting for reps without even warming up. Now my pre workout warm up lasts longer than my actual workout lol.
Also, I’ve been a member of BB.com forums since 2004. Been lurking around AM.com for years. Signed up Jan 2011 and started posting recently. This is the greatest forum I’ve come across. A lot of great ideas floating around and some very well informed individuals sharing their knowledge and experience. Not to mention the best supplement companies and their reps being a huge part of this community. I’m happy to say I’m a member.

Other Supplements:
Multi
Vitamin C (2-4g)
B Complex
Milk Thistle
COQ10
Resveratrol
ECGC
Fish Oil (3g EPA/DHA)
Probiotics
Selenium
Grape Seed Extract
ZMA (Homemade)
Acetyl L Carnitine
Glucosamine/Chondroiton/MSM
Turmeric/Bromelain


PES Alpha T2 (Few days remaining)

(Pre Workout)
Agmatine (1g Synthetic Supplements)
Acetyl L Carnitine (1g)
PLCAR (1g SNS)
Citrulline Malate (Primaforce 4g)
Taurine (Primaforce 1g)
Beta Alanine (2g)
(On Occasion: Huperzine A/Caffeine/Alpha GPC/Chocamine/Coffee)

(Intra Workout)
Modern BCAA (2 scoops)
Gatorade Powder (30g carbs)
Taurine (1g)
Beta Alanine (2g)

(Post Workout)
Creatine Magnesium Chelate (3 caps SNS)
50g Whey Protein (Dymatize Elite)
50g Carbs (Now Carbo Gain Malto/Gatorade Powder)


Dosing Compound 20:
2 caps w/Breakfast
2 caps pre-workout

Training:
As I mentioned, I’m currently in the process of changing my routine. My training will consist mainly of super sets, drop sets, high rep range, high volume, pre exaust before compound movements/low rep sets toward back end of workout. All to prevent injury.

Cardio:
I will continue with my current cardio routine consisting of:
-2-3 days HIIT
-3-4 days Low Intensity Bike/Stairmaster/Incline Walk (Burning 200-400 cal)

Diet:
I will be moving my diet slightly below maintenance (~3200 kcal) so I expect to lost weight regardless of Compound 20 supplementation. With the Compound 20 I’m looking more for cosmetic gains, along with decrease in BF%.

I don’t fully count calories, but aim for certain numbers.

I will be carb cycling with a Low/Med/High regimen.
Low:
400g Protein
100g Carbs
90g Fat
2810 kcals

Med:
300g Protein
250g Carbs
90g Fat
3010 kcals

High:
250g Protein
400g Carbs
70g Fat
3230 kcals

I’m a foodie and love to go out to eat, but will be limiting cheat meals to 1-2 a week. I take 200mg Chromium Polynicotate and 10mg Vanadyl Sulfate before and another during these meals.
Again, I will be aiming for these numbers. They will never be exact, but very close. I’ll also be tinkering with these numbers over the course of my cut.

Goals:
To continue my cut, retain muscle, increase glycogen in muscle, remain injury free. Strength gains will be secondary. And most importantly, see if Compound 20 works for me.


I’m pumped to finally start Compound 20. I would love to do the Carbonite stack, and add Erase Pro to this. But since I’ve never tried either, I want to run them separately to see what each can do. I’ll be running an Erase Pro / DAA log after I’m finished with this. I’m very in tune with my body and experienced with my training and diet. I will give this product a very fair review.

Also, I’m going to post starting pics in the coming days.

Thanks for your support guys! Any questions, feel free to ask.

 

[Clemenza]

Day 1:
Was excited all last night to get started on Compound 20. Before I went to bed I took the bottle out of the closet and left it on my kitchen counter so it was in plain sight this morning.
Opened the bottle and noticed a different smell to these capsules. Like a clean, minty smell. I liked it.
Took 2 caps with breakfast. Along with 1 Alpha T2 (which I will be writing a review on once I finish it up in the coming days), and a cup of coffee.
4:30 PM Lift: Back/Shoulders
I still couldn’t decide on a set new routine so I continued with the old one.
-Warmed up with Core/Rotator Cuff/Shoulder/Upper Back exercises.
I felt really good and loose today so I started somewhat heavy.

Back:
-2 sets weighted Pull Ups (35 lbs) – 8-6 Reps
-2 sets weighted Chin Ups (35 lbs) – 6-4 Reps
-Behind-Head Lat Pulldowns (Light) – 15x12x10 Drop Set-10
-Bent Over BB Row (Front/Reverse Grip) (135) 20x15x15x12

Shoulders:
-DB Press 90 – 8x6x6x4
-Reverse Cable Flies (Light) 15x15x12
-Upright Cable Rows (Light) 15x15x15
-DB Lat Raise (20 lbs) 15x15


Diet was on point today for a high carb day. My girlfriend made me 8 oz salmon and 1 cup brown rice for dinner. Ate it an hour after my PWO shake. Now I’m about throw down a casein shake and a cup of oats.

I like to backload carbs only when I lift later in the day. I enjoy keeping carbs low earlier in the day, and throwing them down the meals after my lift.

 

[rome32]

I'm in bro!!!

 

[fumoney]

Perfect !
I was looking for something like this.

Sub'd.

 

[ax1]

Subbed!

 

[breezy11]

Good luck with the log man! I'm thinking about using it again (solo) in a couple months. Interested to see how it goes for you.

 

[LiveToLift]

Definitely want to see the results from it solo! Don't see any o the usp haters subbing tho even tho this is what they wanted.....

 

[rome32]

Definitely want I see the results from it solo! Don't see any o the usp haters subbing tho even tho this is what they wanted..... Hmmm

They will soon. And they will claim results are not viable because science proves its not possible;p

 

[neddo]

Why carbs intra and post workout? And curious on why you'd continue vanadyl supplementation, as well as underdose your taurine intake?

You could also dose the MCC with your pre-bed dosings to help aid in rest / ZMA ****tail you have. *Nothing meant rude, simply interested.



Sorry to hear about your injuries dude, that's devastating to say the least. Glad you've fought back strong though. Objectively interested in this.


edit:

Definitely want to see the results from it solo! Don't see any o the usp haters subbing tho even tho this is what they wanted..... Hmmm

Dude, get off their dick. The log was started at 10pm during finals week, heaven forbid within the first FOUR HOURS we haven't sub'd lol. I may be a "usp hater," as you've surely deemed me, but I'm simply interested in anecdote at this point. I'd rather play devil's advocate than to be a parrot, however.

 

[LiveToLift]

Why carbs intra and post workout? And curious on why you'd continue vanadyl supplementation, as well as underdose your taurine intake?

You could also dose the MCC with your pre-bed dosings to help aid in rest / ZMA ****tail you have. *Nothing meant rude, simply interested.

Sorry to hear about your injuries dude, that's devastating to say the least. Glad you've fought back strong though. Objectively interested in this.

edit:

Dude, get off their dick. The log was started at 10pm during finals week, heaven forbid within the first FOUR HOURS we haven't sub'd lol. I may be a "usp hater," as you've surely deemed me, but I'm simply interested in anecdote at this point. I'd rather play devil's advocate than to be a parrot, however.

 

[Clemenza]

I'm in bro!!!

Thanks man. I know you said you may run C20 solo also. Look forward to us running this side by side.

 

[Clemenza]

Good luck with the log man! I'm thinking about using it again (solo) in a couple months. Interested to see how it goes for you.

Thanks breezy. Following your results with the Erase Pro/C20 stack I was so tempted to add EP to this, but like I mentioned I want to run them separately first time around.

 

[Clemenza]

Why carbs intra and post workout? And curious on why you'd continue vanadyl supplementation, as well as underdose your taurine intake?

You could also dose the MCC with your pre-bed dosings to help aid in rest / ZMA ****tail you have. *Nothing meant rude, simply interested.



Sorry to hear about your injuries dude, that's devastating to say the least. Glad you've fought back strong though. Objectively interested in this.

No problem, good questions.

I've always had success using carbs with BCAA's intra workout. I even remember reading some studies finding carbs/bcaa's > bcaa's alone.
Also always got good results with high gi carbs post workout. I know it's been debated to death, but it's always worked for me. Carbs and insulin around weight training I believe is the most important time. It definitely helps with endurance during the workout. I've even done this while cutting with great results. I'd just manipulate my carb timing throughout the day and keep them low gi.

Vanadyl sulfate only before and during my cheat meals, if I'm out to eat and having a few drinks. It's always helped keep my blood sugar low, kept bloat down, and help me wake up dry the next morning.

MCC, I may try at night. I'm already getting 250mg Magnesium Citrate before bed. Another 170g might be better off in the AM or PWO.

Thanks for the kind words neddo

 

[Whacked]

I sure see lots of USP lovers sub'd though!!

Whatdya say we all dont WRECK this thread with such annoying BS. The othr C20 thread was already full of it.

Thanks

Back OT: Good luck Clemenza!

Definitely want to see the results from it solo! Don't see any o the usp haters subbing tho even tho this is what they wanted.....

 

[wasme]

In .. curious to see how this goes solo... just ordered the Erase Pro/Compound stack..

 

[neddo]

No problem, good questions.

I've always had success using carbs with BCAA's intra workout. I even remember reading some studies finding carbs/bcaa's > bcaa's alone.
Also always got good results with high gi carbs post workout. I know it's been debated to death, but it's always worked for me. Carbs and insulin around weight training I believe is the most important time. It definitely helps with endurance during the workout. I've even done this while cutting with great results. I'd just manipulate my carb timing throughout the day and keep them low gi.

To each their own I have studies performed to argue otherwise; but you listen to your body and mold your diet and intake around it, and I can respect that.

Vanadyl sulfate only before and during my cheat meals, if I'm out to eat and having a few drinks. It's always helped keep my blood sugar low, kept bloat down, and help me wake up dry the next morning.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=5728391&page=1

I'd opt for Genomyx Slin sane or SLINTropin, personally. Possibly even MAN's new GDA.

I use SS before high carb meals UNLESS post-workout (as I do IF, so most of the time my biggest intake is post-lift and SS is largely a waste in this state) and every night before bed.

 

[Clemenza]

Day 2:

Off day today, so it was low carb day. My low carb day looked and will continue to look like this...

Upon Rising:
2 caps PES Alpha T2
1g ALCAR
200mg ALA
3 caps SNS MCC


Meal 1:
2 scoops Dymatize Elite Whey
8 oz. OJ
2 Slices Ezekial Bread
50g P / 60g C
(2 caps Compound 20)

Meal 2:
6 XL Eggs
42g P / 30g F

Meal 3:
2 scoops Whey
1/4 cup Almonds
50g P / 16g F

Meal 4:
10 oz. Grilled Chicken
1/4 cup Almonds
1 Cup Green Beans
60g P / 16g F
(1 cap PES Alpha T2)

Meal 5:
8 oz. Turkey Burger
1/2 Cup Brown Rice
50g P / 60g C / 10g F
(2 caps Compound 20)

Meal 6:
8 oz. Grilled Chicken
Salad
50g P

Meal 7:
2 Scoops ON Casein
2 Tbspn Almond Butter
40g P / 16g F

Totals: 342g P / 120g C / 88g F

Did 30 minutes on the eliptical today. Continuing to sweat like a mofo on Alpha T2. Have about 3 days left of it, then will write a review.

Arms tomorrow!

 

[Clemenza]

To each their own I have studies performed to argue otherwise; but you listen to your body and mold your diet and intake around it, and I can respect that.



http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=5728391&page=1

I'd opt for Genomyx Slin sane or SLINTropin, personally. Possibly even MAN's new GDA.

I use SS before high carb meals UNLESS post-workout (as I do IF, so most of the time my biggest intake is post-lift and SS is largely a waste in this state) and every night before bed.

I've gone through that thread a few times. There was a GDA thread on here recently and we found studies showing VS safe in dosages up to 100mg or 150mg a day. I'll only use 10-20mg with my cheat meals (once or twice a week). I have in the past gone up to 50mg a day for weeks at a time with no problems. I've even done over a hundred glucometer tests using VS on numerous different foods and those same foods without VS and noticed VS yielding remarkable results in keeping blood sugar levels down. I love it, not to mention it's dirt cheap.

Haven't gotten around to SlinSane yet. My favorite GDA, and actually one of my favorite all time supplements is Anabolic Pump. I respond so well to it. It's actually helped me increase muscle mass and lose fat at the same time. Sick recomp tool. You ever try it?

 

[Clemenza]

I should clarify, I use VS and Chrom Polynicotate with cheat meals because I find it to work best at disposing glucose, especially with high gi carbs.

Anabolic Pump I will use in the summer with low gi complex carbs. I find it does a great job filling up my muscles with glycogen, while preventing spillover, helping me lean out as well.

 

[neddo]

I've gone through that thread a few times. There was a GDA thread on here recently and we found studies showing VS safe in dosages up to 100mg or 150mg a day. I'll only use 10-20mg with my cheat meals (once or twice a week). I have in the past gone up to 50mg a day for weeks at a time with no problems. I've even done over a hundred glucometer tests using VS on numerous different foods and those same foods without VS and noticed VS yielding remarkable results in keeping blood sugar levels down. I love it, not to mention it's dirt cheap.

Haven't gotten around to SlinSane yet. My favorite GDA, and actually one of my favorite all time supplements is Anabolic Pump. I respond so well to it. It's actually helped me increase muscle mass and lose fat at the same time. Sick recomp tool. You ever try it?

If I had access to a glucometer I would love to test SS for the same reason you have VS. I haven't used/nor heard of Anabolic Pump. I'll look her up tomorrow while I "study for finals" / waste time I love SS for its Gymnema and Norvaline content, and will give your GDA a pubmed ninja time tomorrow as well. I'll send you a handful of SS, if you'd like to test them with your glucometer as well.

 

[Clemenza]

If I had access to a glucometer I would love to test SS for the same reason you have VS. I haven't used/nor heard of Anabolic Pump. I'll look her up tomorrow while I "study for finals" / waste time I love SS for its Gymnema and Norvaline content, and will give your GDA a pubmed ninja time tomorrow as well. I'll send you a handful of SS, if you'd like to test them with your glucometer as well.

Definitely recommend picking up a glucometer. They're pretty cheap, the test strips are what end up being expensive. But you can find them for a decent price too. There's a great thread stickied over at MD on GDA's. I suggest you check it out when you have time. SS does look solid. Anabolic Pump has always done me right. Great science behind it too in translocating GLUT4 in muscle, helping drive carbs toward muscle and away from fat. It contains a high Corosolic Acid % as well which is important.

 

[neddo]

Definitely recommend picking up a glucometer. They're pretty cheap, the test strips are what end up being expensive. But you can find them for a decent price too. There's a great thread stickied over at MD on GDA's. I suggest you check it out when you have time. SS does look solid. Anabolic Pump has always done me right. Great science behind it too in translocating GLUT4 in muscle, helping drive carbs toward muscle and away from fat. It contains a high Corosolic Acid % as well which is important.

I've heard from a reliable source that the Corsolic acid content in SS is lacking, so I'm definitely interested in this. Berberine + CA = winning product, USPLabs. I've also read that CA is claimed to induce adiponectin release, but couldn't substantiate it when doing research. I also have a study on hand noting no differences in normal rats' glucose response but solely on Type 2 DM. Always conflicting research in the world

SS = G. sylvestre + Corsolic acid + Norvaline

 

[LiveToLift]

You guys talking bout slinshot or slin sane?

 

[Clemenza]

I've heard from a reliable source that the Corsolic acid content in SS is lacking, so I'm definitely interested in this. Berberine + CA = winning product, USPLabs. I've also read that CA is claimed to induce adiponectin release, but couldn't substantiate it when doing research. I also have a study on hand noting no differences in normal rats' glucose response but solely on Type 2 DM. Always conflicting research in the world

SS = G. sylvestre + Corsolic acid + Norvaline

Yep. I'm going to try SS eventually, but that's why I opt for Anabolic Pump, because the the high CA %.

I've seen a lot of studies on gda's showing positive effects on people with type 2 DB and no effect on non DB subjects. However when I've tested my blood glucose with these gda's I notice reductions

 

[Clemenza]

Day 3:

Had a solid Bicep/Tricep workout today. Ran medium carbs today. Took 2 caps C20 with breakfast and 2 caps pre workout.

Still nothing to report. I don't expect to see anything from C20 for at least a week. But who knows.

Just finished up a bottle of Alpha T2 with EXCELLENT results! Felt it was worth reviewing...
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/200515-pes-alpha-t2.html

I'm about to post my starting pics for this Compound 20 log, which happen to be my after pics taken today for my Alpha T2 review.

 

[Clemenza]

Compound 20 Before Pics (5/3/12) (3 Days In):

My main goals this month with Compound 20 and continuing my cut is to continue losing the lower ab fat as well as the sides and really tone it up. As well as maintain and add muscle if possible. Also looking to bring up traps and delts as these have been weak points for me lately due to neck injury.

 

[fumoney]

Doing good so far. Just loading I think. A lot of detailed here. Keep it up man !

 

[LiveToLift]

Looking beast bro! After leaning up with c20 you will be sick as all hell man!

 

[breezy11]

Looking beast bro! After leaning up with c20 you will be sick as all hell man!

Agreed. You're at a good starting point (bf%) to really make an impact on appearance.

 

[nattydisaster]

Nice, pumped to see how C20 solo goes

 

[rome32]

Compound 20 Before Pics (5/3/12) (3 Days In):

<img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=57128"/><img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=57129"/><img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=57130"/><img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=57131"/><img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=57132"/><img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=57133"/><img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=57134"/>

My main goals this month with Compound 20 and continuing my cut is to continue losing the lower ab fat as well as the sides and really tone it up. As well as maintain and add muscle if possible. Also looking to bring up traps and delts as these have been weak points for me lately due to neck injury.

Do it bro!

 

[ludbg]

GL man

ive been on c20 for 1.5 months now and its great, recovery is much faster and i dont even need a preworkout. get an awesome pump with it.
when i started i was at 170lbs and 15% BF. on a 2300cal/day diet, a month in i was 174lbs and 14% bf.
i decided to cut and started a second cycle on a low carb diet 1800cal/day. bout 50/50 cals from fats and protein. 1 carb loadin day.
helped me shed so much water weight too and my vascularity is more visible. ive retained a lot more muscle than my last years cut.
2.5 weeks in, im now at 167lbs and 12.5%bf

 

[Whacked]

Strong 1st post.....here we go again (where's that emoticon that rolls his eyes)

Yo Clem, Looking solid buddy. Shred up and you'll look wicked! Good luck buddy

 

[ax1]

Strong 1st post.....here we go again (whee's that emoticon that rolls his eyes)

Yo Clem, Looking solid buddy. Shred up and you'll look wicked! Good luck buddy

Word...lol

 

[Clemenza]

Thank you guys for the support!! It definitely helps keep the motivation. Still got a good amount of tightening up to do until I'm happy. With my diet, cardio, intense training, Compound 20 this month, and Erase Pro/DAA for June/July (which I'm really pumped for), I should be good. If not, I'll be really disappointed with myself.

 

[Clemenza]

Day 4:

Woke up at 6:00 AM. My apartment building has a small but really nice gym on the top floor. So no need to hit the gym today, just went upstairs and did 30 minutes on the eliptical. Threw down 2 scoops of Modern BCAA Fruit Punch during cardio. Stuff tastes great!

Took the day off from lifting. Going to start a new routine next week, still just not 100% on what type. Any suggestions feel free to throw them at me.

Low carb day today. Ended the day at 120g carbs and 350g protein. Trying to get it up to 400g protein, but tough as hell.

 

[ax1]

Low carb day today. Ended the day at 120g carbs and 350g protein. Trying to get it up to 400g protein, but tough as hell.

Damn, 400 grams at 195? Thats a ton of protein.


If your cutting why you trying to eat so much?

 

[Clemenza]

Damn, 400 grams at 195? Thats a ton of protein.

If your cutting why you trying to eat so much?

Trying to keep calories slightly under maintenance. That way I can gauge how effective compound 20 is. also not in a position where I need to lose too much fat in a short period of time. I drop my protein on higher carb days. But you may be right, 2x per lb may be excessive.

 

[Whacked]

Sup Clem, with all due respect, I agree with Ax1

"Excess" protein not only converts to sugars (thereby negating some of your low carb activity), but it can be toxic, cause a lot of stress and inflammation in the body (again, at significantly excessive doses) along with other issues. The acidity alone is problematic IMHO.

I speak from experience. I used to be a disciple of the bro-logic high protein diet (~75% of my k/cal at one point).

I was determiend to get peeled and gain lean mass at the same time, etc

I ended up a chubby bloated unhealthy mess with kidney stones (the chronic acidicty was to blame IMO).

I'm approaching 220 these days and very lean and get in 175-200 grams of protein (excluding BCAAs)

Everyone is different; just giving you some things to chew on

Damn, 400 grams at 195? Thats a ton of protein.


If your cutting why you trying to eat so much?

 

[Clemenza]

Sup Clem, with all due respect, I agree with Ax1

"Excess" protein not only converts to sugars (thereby negating some of your low carb activity), but it can be toxic, cause a lot of stress and inflammation in the body (again, at significantly excessive doses) along with other issues. The acidity alone is problematic IMHO.

I speak from experience. I used to be a disciple of the bro-logic high protein diet (~75% of my k/cal at one point).

I was determiend to get peeled and gain lean mass at the same time, etc

I ended up a chubby bloated unhealthy mess with kidney stones (the chronic acidicty was to blame IMO).

I'm approaching 220 these days and very lean and get in 175-200 grams of protein (excluding BCAAs)

Everyone is different; just giving you some things to chew on

Whacked, I really appreciate the advice.

That's unreal! Never really knew about the acidity and inflammatory issue with high protein.

It's funny you say that though, because toward the end of two straight low carb/high protein days, I notice I become flatter (from the low carb), but also BLOATED! I'm guessing this is from the excess protein.

I am aware of protein converting to sugars and gluconeogenesis. I've just been afraid to go too low on calories. On low carb days I end up with around 100g carbs, and 350-400g protein. That's 1850-2000 kcal, which leaves me needing around 70g fat to bring it up to 2630 kcal. Didn't really want to get lower than that.

But do you recommend I up my carbs or my fat on those low days, if I'm going to drop protein down to around 200g?

 

[Whacked]

Clem

Some responses from MY lessons in life only. These may not pertain to you.

1) The bloat you are experiencing "could" simply be due to a simple digestive issue (lack of necessary enzymes/proteases to deal with such high volume protein intake). That's an easy fix w/the addition of digestive enzymes (and maybe some betain HCL-debateable) and perhaps some probiotics (more comprehensive/ancillary suppport)

That said, it could also be what I already mentioned as well (acidity/inflammation). Google acid/alkaline diets/lifestyles and you will find a plehtora of research to support my position on the negative cascade of effects from a chronically acidic (high MEAT) diet. Disclaimer: If you also eat a variety of very alkaline foods with each meal like most greens are, you might be able to better balance the acidic environment.

With respect to you going al the way down to 200 overnight - perhaps you should start at 250-275 and see how your body responds? Some do "ok" with higher levels (however, I am not convinced they arent causing other issues internally).

2) With respect to the macro's. That's more of a personal trial and error thingy that Im not sure anyone can advise for your unique situation and needs. Lowering carbs doesnt work for everyone and Im a low carb disciple who has fostered this lifestyle for 10_ years so Im prejudice based on my experiences. Also, macro needs (protein), is one thing I think the individual should assesss as well. Again, I used to eat liek you (thanks to all the wonderful "GURU" advice) and wrecked myself int he process. Live and learn.

Im in my 40's so an old fart now and only do about 2500 k/cal a day on average. Again, 200 grams of protein MAX (lots of BCAA's).

I train 6 days a week in the AM and 6 cardio sessions in the PM (I have a very sedentary desk job so the "cardio" doesnt really count per se as it would for the normal joe).

3) I concur with your sentiment/position regarding going too low in carbs. Two options IMO. Up the BCAA's (pre/peri/post training) as these are effective anticatabolic/muscle-sparing supps. Increase your healthy fats. Some days, I get 250 grams of fats in my diet and stay lean. It's a brain game though because we have been so brainwashed into believing fats make you fat. These days, I get a copious dose of coconut, almonds and macedemia nut oil in my diet. I actually feel "energized" (probably more so from the coconut/MCT's)

I hope some others chime in and offer other/alternative insight as I dont want to see you replicate my regimen as it may/may not not be ideal for you.

Good luck manggg

Whacked, I really appreciate the advice.

That's unreal! Never really knew about the acidity and inflammatory issue with high protein.

It's funny you say that though, because toward the end of two straight low carb/high protein days, I notice I become flatter (from the low carb), but also BLOATED! I'm guessing this is from the excess protein.

I am aware of protein converting to sugars and gluconeogenesis. I've just been afraid to go too low on calories. On low carb days I end up with around 100g carbs, and 350-400g protein. That's 1850-2000 kcal, which leaves me needing around 70g fat to bring it up to 2630 kcal. Didn't really want to get lower than that.

But do you recommend I up my carbs or my fat on those low days, if I'm going to drop protein down to around 200g?

 

[Clemenza]

Clem

Some responses from MY lessons in life only. These may not pertain to you.

1) The bloat you are experiencing "could" simply be due to a simple digestive issue (lack of necessary enzymes/proteases to deal with such high volume protein intake). That's an easy fix w/the addition of digestive enzymes (and maybe some betain HCL-debateable) and perhaps some probiotics (more comprehensive/ancillary suppport)

That said, it could also be what I already mentioned as well (acidity/inflammation). Google acid/alkaline diets/lifestyles and you will find a plehtora of research to support my position on the negative cascade of effects from a chronically acidic (high MEAT) diet. Disclaimer: If you also eat a variety of very alkaline foods with each meal like most greens are, you might be able to better balance the acidic environment.

With respect to you going al the way down to 200 overnight - perhaps you should start at 250-275 and see how your body responds? Some do "ok" with higher levels (however, I am not convinced they arent causing other issues internally).

2) With respect to the macro's. That's more of a personal trial and error thingy that Im not sure anyone can advise for your unique situation and needs. Lowering carbs doesnt work for everyone and Im a low carb disciple who has fostered this lifestyle for 10_ years so Im prejudice based on my experiences. Also, macro needs (protein), is one thing I think the individual should assesss as well. Again, I used to eat liek you (thanks to all the wonderful "GURU" advice) and wrecked myself int he process. Live and learn.

Im in my 40's so an old fart now and only do about 2500 k/cal a day on average. Again, 200 grams of protein MAX (lots of BCAA's).

I train 6 days a week in the AM and 6 cardio sessions in the PM (I have a very sedentary desk job so the "cardio" doesnt really count per se as it would for the normal joe).

3) I concur with your sentiment/position regarding going too low in carbs. Two options IMO. Up the BCAA's (pre/peri/post training) as these are effective anticatabolic/muscle-sparing supps. Increase your healthy fats. Some days, I get 250 grams of fats in my diet and stay lean. It's a brain game though because we have been so brainwashed into believing fats make you fat. These days, I get a copious dose of coconut, almonds and macedemia nut oil in my diet. I actually feel "energized" (probably more so from the coconut/MCT's)

I hope some others chime in and offer other/alternative insight as I dont want to see you replicate my regimen as it may/may not not be ideal for you.

Good luck manggg

Very interesting. Two years ago I did the Scivation Lean Mass diet, not sure if you're familiar with it. It was the most effective diet I've ever done. Effective in the sense that I dropped fat, retained muscle, my skin looked fantastic, and I had consistant energy.

The diet focused on a moderate protein (about 1g per pound) and much higher fat. Proteins coming mainly from whole food sources, fats coming from avacado, almonds, almond butter. High fiber. Two pieces of fruit and green beans/spinach/brocolli were the only carbs. As well as a re-feed every 4th night I believe, consisting of oats, honey, raisins and sweet potato. Plus high BCAA's. And the funny thing is I was never really "flat" because the refeed would hold me over for 3 days. And my muscles would suck the carbs right up.

Basically, I looked great and felt great. But it's SOOOOOO hard to follow. But I was consistant with it for a few months and it was amazing.
The idea behind the spinach and greens was to keep the an alkaline PH I believe.

I'm going to try and few different things, like slowly bringing my protein down. I currently use 10g BCAA during my workout. I will up it and include extras pre and post along with my whey.

Just picked up a huge bag of green beans from Costco.

Amazing you can maintain at a solid 210 lbs on 2500 kcals.

 

[neddo]

I didn't choose to advise on your diet as you seem set in your ways but I personally don't see a point in a TCD. Eat 1.4-1.8 g/kg protein daily, 1 g/kg ish fat, and the rest for your maintenance/deficit in carbs daily. Azotemia, I believe, is the term for acidic blood due to excessive protein intake. Realistically, anything over 1.2g/lbs is highly unnecessary according to repeated studies (notice kg vs lbs throughout this post) in terms of protein intake. Protein will AT BEST account for 10-12% of total energy expenditure for a day and that's during extreme cases (which yours may be).

Do a refeed once you're two weeks deep into a cut; however, you aren't necessarily cutting hard so I wouldn't even recommend one -- maybe once every second/third week at best and see how your body responds.

 

[sae2110]

I didn't choose to advise on your diet as you seem set in your ways but I personally don't see a point in a TCD. Eat 1.4-1.8 g/kg protein daily, 1 g/kg ish fat, and the rest for your maintenance/deficit in carbs daily. Azotemia, I believe, is the term for acidic blood due to excessive protein intake. Realistically, anything over 1.2g/lbs is highly unnecessary according to repeated studies (notice kg vs lbs throughout this post) in terms of protein intake. Protein will AT BEST account for 10-12% of total energy expenditure for a day and that's during extreme cases (which yours may be).

Do a refeed once you're two weeks deep into a cut; however, you aren't necessarily cutting hard so I wouldn't even recommend one -- maybe once every second/third week at best and see how your body responds.

+/- Correct on the azotemia, it is kidney insufficiency/failure in the face of high nitrogen rich compounds in the blood (not to be confused with rhabdomyolysis). You would have decreased and funky colored urine with it. I can see where ridiculous protein intake would cause this, but you would have to have a lot o digestive enzymes to break down all that meat so the byproducts would then wind up in the bloodstream. Just my.02. Otherwise this post is spot on Neddo, the 1.2gm/lbs is what I have read too

 

[Whacked]

Neddo and Sae: good stuff, thanks for sharing!

Clem: That diet sounds almost identical to what I run!!

You said you felt great on it. I think you answered your own questions

 

[neddo]

+/- Correct on the azotemia, it is kidney insufficiency/failure in the face of high nitrogen rich compounds in the blood (not to be confused with rhabdomyolysis). You would have decreased and funky colored urine with it. I can see where ridiculous protein intake would cause this, but you would have to have a lot o digestive enzymes to break down all that meat so the byproducts would then wind up in the bloodstream. Just my.02. Otherwise this post is spot on Neddo, the 1.2gm/lbs is what I have read too

I've heard the extreme circumstances encasing azotemia and the extreme rarity of it but figured it'd still be worth a mention.

 

[Clemenza]

Great insight guys. I've already started making some changes today. I'm going to be including more greens, lowering overall protein intake, and upping the BCAA's.

 

[Clemenza]

Day 5:

Did a high rep, low weight, short rest interval upper body lift today. I mentioned earlier I'm gonna shake my routine up this coming week. So just ending this week with a little blood flow. Will do a light lower body tomorrow.

Also did 30 minute walk on a 9 incline at 3.3 mph.

After all the good input I got from you guys, I decided to go lower on the protein and change a few things with the diet.

Here's exactly what I ate today:

Meal 1 (Pre workout): 8 oz. OJ / 25g Dymatize Elite (30g C / 25g P)
(2 Caps C20)

Intra Workout: 20g Carbs Gatorade powder w/BCAA (20g C)

Meal 2 (Post workout): 50g carb from Malto/Gatorade powder / 50g Dymatize Elite (50g C / 50g P)

Meal 3 (1 Hour Follow PWO meal): 1 Cup Oats w/Cinnamon / 5 Eggs (55g C / 35g P / 25g F)

Meal 4: 1/2 cup Brown Rice / 7 oz. Grilled Chicken (60g C / 40g P)
(2 Caps C20)

Meal 5: 1 cup Green Beans / 6 oz. Turkey Burger (35g P / 8g F)

Meal 6: 1 cup Green Beans / 1/2 cup Brown Rice / 7 oz. Grilled Chicken / 1/4 cup Almonds (60g C / 40g P / 16g F)

Totals: (275g C / 230g P / 49g F) = 2461 Cals.

Fat was low today. Usually have 1/4 cup almonds with at least 2-3 meals daily.

How do you guys feel about including fats with protein/carb meals? I've heard so much back and forth about this over the years. I've never had a problem combining carbs with fat. Interested in your opinions though.

 

[RecompMan]

To each their own I have studies performed to argue otherwise; but you listen to your body and mold your diet and intake around it, and I can respect that.



http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=5728391&page=1

I'd opt for Genomyx Slin sane or SLINTropin, personally. Possibly even MAN's new GDA.

I use SS before high carb meals UNLESS post-workout (as I do IF, so most of the time my biggest intake is post-lift and SS is largely a waste in this state) and every night before bed.

Not sure about this but SLINTropins write up for berberine looks stikingly similar to mine without citations and a few big words...

ill be following your log

 

[Whacked]

Tear it up mangg

PS: With the modifications to your diet, you WILL lose bodyfat so be sure to appropriately credit THIS as part of any recomp/fat reduction results when you give your summary on C-20

Great insight guys. I've already started making some changes today. I'm going to be including more greens, lowering overall protein intake, and upping the BCAA's.