Change in Post Cycle Recovery?

[PC1]

http://www.anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8374

Iron Addict was good enough to post this thread as written by DC, apparently elsewhere on the Internet. This is the most motivational and inspirational thread I've seen in quite awhile, thanks to you both. The proverbial kick in the pants I need

There was one quote in here by DC though that took me by surprise.....

Do I believe clomid and arimidex will work better at getting your endo test back to normal without any exogenous testosterone in the system? yes.... Do I believe that because there is 300-400mg (at least) of exogenous test in the system that clomid and arimidex will do nothing to regulate a persons endo test? absolutely not and I know better from the people I train and myself.

I take it on face value that DC is in fact a very seasoned competetive bodybuilder and rendering his honest opinion.

If what he is saying here about clomid and arimidex are true though, it also stands to reason that we should change our approach to post AS or PH cycle recovery.

Conventional (current) widsom and practice indicate we begin post cycle recovery upon the cessation of androgens, taking into account the type of androgen, method of delivery, ester, and so on.

But if DC is correct here in saying that anti-e's impact endogenous test production even in the presence of significant exogenous test supplementation, it also stands to reason that we should begin taking anti-e's perhaps several weeks PRIOR to cessation. Why not get our own system back up and running (or at least, moving in that direction) BEFORE exogenous test leaves our system?

I once asked Patrick Arnold about this as it relates to 1-test and 6-oxo, and would there be any benefit to taking it concurrently with 1-test to avoid or diminish endogenous shut down. His reply was to say that 1-test was way too suppressive, and that suppression was an unavoidable consequence with 1-test, although he did speculate it might be less for a 4-AD "only" cycle.

So........ we have a contradiction.

Thoughts?

Comments?

 

[ex_banana-eater]

http://www.anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8374

Iron Addict was good enough to post this thread as written by DC, apparently elsewhere on the Internet. This is the most motivational and inspirational thread I've seen in quite awhile, thanks to you both. The proverbial kick in the pants I need

There was one quote in here by DC though that took me by surprise.....

Do I believe clomid and arimidex will work better at getting your endo test back to normal without any exogenous testosterone in the system? yes.... Do I believe that because there is 300-400mg (at least) of exogenous test in the system that clomid and arimidex will do nothing to regulate a persons endo test? absolutely not and I know better from the people I train and myself.

I take it on face value that DC is in fact a very seasoned competetive bodybuilder and rendering his honest opinion.

If what he is saying here about clomid and arimidex are true though, it also stands to reason that we should change our approach to post AS or PH cycle recovery.

Conventional (current) widsom and practice indicate we begin post cycle recovery upon the cessation of androgens, taking into account the type of androgen, method of delivery, ester, and so on.

But if DC is correct here in saying that anti-e's impact endogenous test production even in the presence of significant exogenous test supplementation, it also stands to reason that we should begin taking anti-e's perhaps several weeks PRIOR to cessation. Why not get our own system back up and running (or at least, moving in that direction) BEFORE exogenous test leaves our system?

I once asked Patrick Arnold about this as it relates to 1-test and 6-oxo, and would there be any benefit to taking it concurrently with 1-test to avoid or diminish endogenous shut down. His reply was to say that 1-test was way too suppressive, and that suppression was an unavoidable consequence with 1-test, although he did speculate it might be less for a 4-AD "only" cycle.

So........ we have a contradiction.

Thoughts?

Comments?

DC is a good guy and all, but I don't see anything he posts ever backed by scientific evidence.

Anyways, as far as running anti-e's to get natural testosterone up on 300-400mg per week, no. You must understand what mechanism they work by, and this is by lowering estrogen and creating a negative feedback mechanism that senses lowered estrogen to increase luteinizing hormone.
If dogcrapps theory was correct, and low estrogen actually increased endogenous testosterone when supplementing with superphysiological levels, then people would have increased natural testosterone simply by taking a non-aromatising androgen cycle only. That does not happen, since superphysiological levels of androgens will inhibit luteinizing hormone production no matter what level of estrogen is present.

To mods: Sorry if this is out of line, but this question wasn't getting answered after 35 views so I thought I'd step up. I do not condone the use of steroids to anyone.

 

[PC1]

Ex-Bananna..........

Thanks. I don't have an in depth technical understanding of the HPTA.

What I understand from my reading here and from your post as well, is that post cycle, HPTA senses generally elevated estrogen levels that in turn delay an increase in production (or resumption) of LH. And LH is what we produce testosterone from.

But there must also be more to it then, if what you, others here and Patrick Arnold indicate is true? DC's comments aside, part of the sensory process must also be that production (or resumption) of LH does not occur in the presence of at least some level of androgens generally even in the face of low estrogen levels?

Thanks again,

 

[Doggcrapp]

banana eater: DC is a good guy and all, but I don't see anything he posts ever backed by scientific evidence.

Doggcrapp:: because theory always precedes science doesn't it. When I start seeing some studies geared toward making inhumanly large amounts of muscle mass possible on human beings Ill be the first to post it for you. There is science out there showing GH does jack, steroids dont work, HMB is incredible, high fats diets dont work, etc etc etc--If i believed everything science presented to me Id still be 185lbs eating from the food pyramid and taking in 150grams of protein a day wondering how the hell do i get to 300lbs. With that said heres how I answered the same question on another board (dont take my hostility that is cut and pasted as toward you--it was vented toward another guy who said I have nothing to offer of value in bodybuilding)

Doggcrapp: So if someone who has low endo testosterone who is getting exog HRT at 200mg a week takes clomid, nolvadex and arimidex and hcg--it does absolutely nothing huh? No signals are being sent that could possibly help in regulation huh? I say bullshit!!! Prove it to me! And I dont want to hear about the MINTO studies--we know super supplements inhibit the HPTA and do it quickly but the Minto studies didnt use an antiestrogen or HCG protocol did it? Ive trained enough people now and have conducted the best online lab experiment ever to myself over the last year and a half. Ive trained mostly natural guys, some small term juicers and also guys who were using almost year round. Well guess what--ive seen or heard the lab reports from about 12-14 of these guys now. Unlike people who are chronically on cycle (and theres alot-many who even convince themselves that they arent) the enhanced people i train lab tests almost always come back in normal ranges. When i say "almost always" I mean i might have someone who was inhibited and didnt get his hpta back in check before I started training him. So HPTA signals are being sent even with 150 to 300mg of exog test in the body unlike people who do 16 week cycles and get off and they lose 20 of the 24 lbs they gained, are terribly depressed and the myriad of all other low testosterone symptoms for up to 2 months afterward. I see some others have some similiar theories as I do "L REA" etc and I laugh when I see people like on this board who are so bold, educated and "above it all" in their thinking--get made to look foolish. It pisses me off honestly--everyone was so against DC training at first--"it wont work forever" "it wont work at all etc etc" and now everyone has jumped on the bandwagon because the pictures are now all over the place and theres so many people who have gained 20-50lbs in this last year. The same was said about my different nutrition methods and now I see many using Olive oil and carb cuttoffs later in the day. People said the same thing about the extreme stretching--"its dangerous, youll tear something" and now people left and right are doing it. Well I train about 75% natural guys and 25% enhanced guys--Do you see anyone on the various boards saying "doggcrapp screwed me up"---? No because I am keeping them regulated HPTA wise --year round--as best as I can--so the problems that people have to cope with getting off arent so dramatically excruciating. People keep saying I advise "year round" cycling. When the **** have I ever said that? I dont advise any cycling thats someones personal decision. The only thing I advise is if your choice is to be enhanced then you need to do a cruise period somewhere between week 4 and 8 so you can keep yourself regulated. If that means someone doing 6 weeks and a 2 week cruise and then 6 weeks again and a 2 week cruise and thats it for the year--then thats fine. If its for someone who does longterm cycling like alot of pros and top amateurs do then I feel thats the best way also. Again I dont advise someone to be enhanced, thats their choice--I just ask them if they have had problems in the past keeping muscle on them when getting off--along with colds flu's, lethargy, loss of appetite, loss of sex drive, joint pain--then give my method a try. Second of all to clarify a cruise is basically this

CLOMID:
DAY ONE 6 TABS
DAY TWO 5 TABS
DAY THREE 4 TABS
DAY FOUR 3 TABS
DAY FIVE THROUGH DAY FOURTEEN 2 TABS A DAY

ARIMIDEX: .50MG TO 1MG WITH 1MG BEING BETTER EITHER EVERY OTHER DAY OR EVERY DAY FOR THE LENGTH OF THE CRUISING

NOLVADEX: 20MG A DAY FOR THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF THE CRUISING

A TESTOST LIKE PROP USED AT 50-100MG EVERY OTHER DAY (THE BEST WAY IS TO START AT 100 AND SLOWLY WEAN DOWN THRU THE CRUISING PERIOD TO 50 EVERY OTHER DAY)

OR IF HCG IS AVAILABLE TO YOU YOU WOULD START AT 100MG EOD OF prop TESTOST AND WEAN DOWN TO 50MG BY DAY 7-ROUGHLY 100 THEN 75 AND THEN 50MG FOR THAT FIRST WEEK----AT THAT POINT YOU WOULD USE HCG AT 1000 TO 1500 IUS EVERY DAY FOR THE REST OF THE CRUISE (ANOTHER 7 TO 14 DAYS) (and yes i know the timing of hcg to clomid but in this concept this is the way to go)

And for you people who still think pros and top ams are going off and on--when is the last time you have seen a pro or top AM look smooth small and out of shape?????? Twenty guest posings, 15 appearances, magazine shoots and two contests a year (with each at least 12 week preps)--YOU TELL ME WHEN THE HELL THEY ARE GETTING OFF! Lets use someone like Gunther--ok he competed in the olympia in the fall and then roughly a month and a half later he won the GNC show--he was photographed almost every month since that time continually the last half year--guest posings--the Kevin Levrone race--Flex magazine shoots and is 330 and hard continually--well its almost July and Olympia prep starts up right now--so ask yourself when has Gunther been off in the last year? When will he be getting off? Ive said repeatedly during the Cycles on Pennies thread---will my methods get the hpta completely back in check? Hell no it wont but IMO its alot better sending signals to the HPTA at shortened pertinent times then blast juice all year long with no care for your axis at all. Your saying any amount of exog test in the body renders arimidex clomid HCG and nolvadex completely useless? Why do doctors use some or all of those with HRT therapies or gels? Why do people use HCG mid cycle? How many lifters (75% at least) think they are off cycle but still have exogenous compounds floating around in their bloodstream due to the steroid being hydrolized slowly in scar tissue or fat or their miscalculations on duration of said steroid. Those same lifters are using clomid hcg and nolvadex as soon as their cycles end and have done so for years with success--so i dont think very small amounts of testost in the body render ancillary meds useless. I singled you out because I saw you on this board at least 3 times in past posts saying the only usefull thing that comes out of my mouth is about stretching---your entitled to your opinion and Im giving you my opinion.

So one thing you might want to think about banana eater--Out of the million admitted users of anabolics in the United States who used a clomid Hcg (and maybe nolvadex) protocol to come off of the sauce successfully---every single one of them was completely off with no trace of steroids in their bloodstream at all? Every single one of them? According to you any minute trace of exog steroid renders all accessory compounds (hcg, arimidex, clomid, nolvadex) completly inert? Many people use cypionate, sustonon, laurabolin and other like compounds--do you see those people waiting the 2-4 weeks to start clomid and hcg therapy because those compounds hydrolize so slowly in the system? No they start their accessory therapy maybe a couple days after their last shot and many are no worse for the wear. I have some "year round" trainees of an elite level that have to run for long periods of time to keep up with the Joneses--I repeatedly hear "my god I feel so much better mentally and physically doing things this way" from these people---Ill put positive feedback of 198 out of 200 bodybuilders above what 2 scientists who disect a labrat might come up with. And hell again if I listened to enough rat studies I might even start to believe Myozap protein and Myostatin inhibitors are actually doubling muscle mass in supplement buyers physiques

 

[PC1]

DC...........

Thank you for replying, I've enjoyed reading your posts and appreciate the depth of practical experience you bring to discussions here.

Question if I could please:

ALthough I haven't had it tested recently, I'm fairly convinced my normal endo test levels are on the lower end (for a 43 year old guy), and I have concerns generally about post cycle recovery.

Putting aside the cruising cycle, and assuming a more standard 8-12 week cycle, If I'm going to use Nolva (possibly in conjunction with HCG) as my post cycle anti-e, do you feel I would be better off not waiting until the very conclusion of a cycle to start taking it? For example, rather than running Nolva for 4 weeks immediately post cycle, is there benefit to running it for say, 2 weeks prior to the conclusion of a cycle plus 4 weeks post cycle? Or something along that line, in order to begin the rebound process earlier on?

Thank you.

 

[Doggcrapp]

pc::Question if I could please:
ALthough I haven't had it tested recently, I'm fairly convinced my normal endo test levels are on the lower end (for a 43 year old guy), and I have concerns generally about post cycle recovery.
Putting aside the cruising cycle, and assuming a more standard 8-12 week cycle,

Doggcrapp:: right there im going to stop you---I wouldnt do that for the myriad of reasons previously stated. I have a 56 year old masters national competitor I train whose test levels are low. He is on HRT therapy and his own therapy (LOL) He blasts for 7 weeks and then cruises for 2 weeks using nolvadex, arimidex, clomid and 25-50mg of test prop eod and then back to blasting again. that is the way I feel you should do it.

PC:If I'm going to use Nolva (possibly in conjunction with HCG) as my post cycle anti-e, do you feel I would be better off not waiting until the very conclusion of a cycle to start taking it? For example, rather than running Nolva for 4 weeks immediately post cycle, is there benefit to running it for say, 2 weeks prior to the conclusion of a cycle plus 4 weeks post cycle? Or something along that line, in order to begin the rebound process earlier on?

Doggcrapp: I think the most important thing in any cycling application is normalizing yourself as quickly as possible so I wouldnt skip out on recovery if I was you--Id use all four compounds as they act via different pathways to do one thing (get your hpta axis back in check) arimidex nolv clom and hcg. (Well hcg is kind of different in that aspect but anyway) I would do the clom and hcg for two weeks upon cessation of cycle along with the arim and nolv--then I would continue on with the arim and nolv until you decide to get back ON. You would probaly use arimidex during blasting anyway so whether you decide to use nolv early or at post cycle is up to you. That low of estrogen levels with both those compounds could hamper any gains you would of made in the last 2 weeks of your cycle--while those two used together during cruising and offcycle are going to do nothing but get your T levels back up and keep bodyfat off in a time where your not going to gain much muscle anyway---sorry for the quick answers--kind of in a rush

 

[db682]

Very informative thread gentlemen. Keep the knowledge coming. Im always willing to learn more. Good Questions PC and good answers DC.

db

 

[jminis]

Nolva won't bring back T levels? Hmm. I understand it doesn't do it as well as clomid but last time I check there was about a 5% or so difference in both's ability to raise nat. T levels. Other comments? Later J

 

[PC1]

Jminis..........

I have no question that using all 4 compounds for recovery is the superior way to go. But at the conclusion of my last PH cycle, a fairly heavy 1-test 4AD transdermal, I only used Nolva. It clearly worked for me.

Not that a 310 lb bench press is any huge weight for many guys here, but it is for me. I lost very little strength post cycle, and I attribute that to the efficacy of Nolva, and good training and diet advice obtained here on AM

 

[jminis]

PC1 I agree, all four would be best but $ wise not really. I used Nolv post cycle and it did a great job in getting the boys functioning again. I know DC said he was in a rush when typing it so leave it up to us with a little more time to pick it apart line by line. Atleast it shows I'm reading everything later J

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Jminis..........

I have no question that using all 4 compounds for recovery is the superior way to go.

Which 4 compunds? HCG, Nolva, Clomid and Dex?

 

[PC1]

Bobo,

Yes, that's what DC is espousing above. And I trust he's recommending that on his "cruising" type of cycle as they function through differing, or mostly differing pathways.

While I have no reason to doubt the combination is better, I know that Nolva alone worked well for me. I make this point because I've read a fair amount of debate on which is better, Clomid or Nolva. I've even heard some guys saying Nolva ISN'T effective post cycle AT ALL, with studies supporting the allegation. Other studies in vivo support that it is.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind though, that Nolva alone worked for me.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Nolva works better for post recovery as its both anti-estrogenic in both the hypothalamus and pituitary, while Clomid is weaker at the pituitary. As far as using all 4, Swale over at CEM also recommends HCG shots during a long term cycle. Grnated all of these are theory since none of its been proven but since he works specifically with HRT and patients who abused steroids in a clinical setting, I tend to take his word.

 

[jminis]

Bobo my thoughts exactly. Everything I've read has showed Nolva to be superior and from personal experience I agree. When you say Swale recomomend HCG shots during a cycle when does he mean. The whole time or cruising or what. And what are your thoughts and or experience with post cycle and HCG? Later J

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I think it depends on the dosage and cycle length but from what I remember he recommended using it throughout the whole cycle. I could be wrong as its been a while since I've read it. I have never used it as I've never needed to even after a very prolonged cycle. Nolva, reduced volume, and clean calories has always worked fine for me.

Just do a search over at CEM under Swale and you will find a number of posts about recovery. PM him and ask him to share his thoguhts here. He might stop by.

 

[jminis]

Sounds good Bobo. I might hit him up and see if he'll stop by but I'd def be interested in reading some of his articles. I always thought of HCG of doing more harm then good but that's just me. I understand everyone is different so I guess whatever floats your boat. Thanks for the feedback, Have a good one, J

 

[Doggcrapp]

I dont remember saying anywhere in my post that Nolvadex didnt work--lol. But you guys are suggesting taking the easy way or skirting funds when it comes to the HPTA (which is the most important factor of retaining muscle mass which everyone seems to totally forget about). Its like saying what will get you muscularly larger Steroids+GH+Insulin+Igf-1 or just steroids by themself. Obviously its the first option. Well Nolvadex by itself is not going to regulate the HPTA better than nolv arim clom and hcg used together. You guys are talking like clom arim nolv are extremely expensive. 50ml/50mg of liquid clom for research is what 50 bucks? From *** its even cheaper. Nolv and arim are around the same price structure. It amazes me when I see people think in a way "ok how can i get as big as possible and spend all this money for my on cycle" and then they get off cycle with nil endo test and muscle start falling off of them like dead skin. People should start thinking in a context of "how can I keep as much muscle on my body optimally when I come off" and you do that by putting as much effort into normalizing yourself as quickly as possible with all means possible

 

[jminis]

DC I just reread the part and your right you never said that. In the sentence I replaced a "but" with a "to" in my head. You said "do nothing but get T levels back up", I read it as "do nothing to get T levels back up." Ooops Either way my bad. So at the end of a say 20 week cycle what kind of HCG regimen would you suggest for the first two weeks?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I dont remember saying anywhere in my post that Nolvadex didnt work--lol. But you guys are suggesting taking the easy way or skirting funds when it comes to the HPTA (which is the most important factor of retaining muscle mass which everyone seems to totally forget about). Its like saying what will get you muscularly larger Steroids+GH+Insulin+Igf-1 or just steroids by themself. Obviously its the first option. Well Nolvadex by itself is not going to regulate the HPTA better than nolv arim clom and hcg used together. You guys are talking like clom arim nolv are extremely expensive. 50ml/50mg of liquid clom for research is what 50 bucks? From SBC its even cheaper. Nolv and arim are around the same price structure. It amazes me when I see people think in a way "ok how can i get as big as possible and spend all this money for my on cycle" and then they get off cycle with nil endo test and muscle start falling off of them like dead skin. People should start thinking in a context of "how can I keep as much muscle on my body optimally when I come off" and you do that by putting as much effort into normalizing yourself as quickly as possible with all means possible

I'm suggesting the easy way out? And where do you come to this conclusion? Frankly I don't think Dex is needed considereing a possible estrogen rebound. Nolva, Clomid and HCG would be just fine and seems to work for many clinical patients. If I remember correctly the use of all these compunds, especially Dex, would have free Test at a high level and SHBG at a very low level when use has stopped. This would also have a negative impact on recovery. THis is the main reason why some people do not recommend using inhibitors during recovery. Its not been proven at its just a theory (Nandi's theory) but it does make sense. Here was Swale's response to it.

"I'm jumping into this post a little late, but I'd like to offer a few observations:
1. As far as your theory, Nandi, it sure is an interesting thought. However, you are assuming that estrogen was controlled throughout with an anti-aromatase, right (or E levels would be elevated, and therefore SHBG, already)?
2. I am not partial to studies conducted on those who suffer organic hypogonadism, organic hypopituitarism, prepubertal (or pubertal) boys, or women. I don't believe we can accurately extrapolate to HRT or AAS applications for normal adult males from them. We must similarly be VERY careful when trying to employ lessons learned from studies conducted at physiological hormone levels. The absence of feedback within the hormonal milieu at AAS concentrations dismisses much of what we may glean as we struggle over such paucity of evidence.
3. I read a lot of talk here about Free Testosterone, but in the capillary beds the concentration of testosterone presented approximates the sum of the Free (unbound) Testosterone AND that loosely bound to albumin (by definition, the "Bioavailable Testosterone"). This increases the activity of the available testosterone at the AR to the point where Free Testosterone becomes almost a moot point. We also must remember that, within physiological concentrations (where feedback is intact), changes in SHBG concentrations do not alter Free Testosterone levels.
4. A point that is being missed regarding use of aromatase inhibitors post cycle is that they will drive E levels to sub-physiological levels. Indeed, that is what happened in all studies where they were shown to induce increases in LH production. E levels that are too low further damage the Lipid Profile, thus extending plaque deposition within the cardiovascular system.
5. I worry about using zinc preparations where more than 50 or 100 mg is taken per day for extended periods of time. I'm not convinced there are any benefits--and in fact there may be detriment--to supplementation of zinc in non-deficient healthy subjects.

In the meantime, I'll have nothing to do with AI's post cycle. That is to say, VERY MUCH post cycle. The same is true, IMPO, of HCG: use it regularly throughout and moreso at the end of the cycle (if need be), but "not much" (technical jargon) post-cyle."


http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5396&perpage=15&highlight=nolvadex&pagenumber=1

Something to think about from someone who does it for a living.