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    Quote Originally Posted by NeedMassNow View Post
    Has anybody tried EpioTren by Intense Nutraceuticals. It has the following blend:
    19-Norandrosta-4, 9-diene-3,17-dione and
    2a, 3a-epithio-17a-methyl-5a-androsta-17b-ol.

    I recognize the Epi, does anybody recognize the first Nomenclature? couldn't find it on the 1st page.

    NMN
    The first one is finigex. Try using the search button or google next time. It's not hard to find info on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TerribleTowel View Post
    The first one is finigex. Try using the search button or google next time. It's not hard to
    find info on.
    Is it really? Interesting lets see..after googling and searching the first time (then reading your comment were you infer that I didn't search to begin with, and doing it again) this is what I found.

    Finigenix Magnum
    Innovators: PharmagenX
    Nomenclature: Estra-4, 9-diene-3, 17-dione
    Dosages: 50-75mg
    Side effects: aggrevation of gynecomastia. This is a progestin. Expect tren-like sides.
    Reputation: This is a prohormone to dienolone (similar to M-diene). Decent for recomp and increases in strength.

    So Estra-4, 9-diene-3, 17-dione = 19-Norandrosta-4, 9-diene-3,17-dione?

    People use to make the WRONG assumption about Promagnum-25 and Halodrol 50, they assumed they were the same because they have a nomenclature that is almost IDENTICAL yet they are derivatives to of steroids. I'm not a chemist, but would you educate us and care to explain how a Estra-4, 9-diene-3, 17-dione = 19-Norandrosta-4, 9-diene-3,17-dione?

    NMN
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeedMassNow View Post
    Is it really? Interesting lets see..after googling and searching the first time (then reading your comment were you infer that I didn't search to begin with, and doing it again) this is what I found.

    Finigenix Magnum
    Innovators: PharmagenX
    Nomenclature: Estra-4, 9-diene-3, 17-dione
    Dosages: 50-75mg
    Side effects: aggrevation of gynecomastia. This is a progestin. Expect tren-like sides.
    Reputation: This is a prohormone to dienolone (similar to M-diene). Decent for recomp and increases in strength.

    So Estra-4, 9-diene-3, 17-dione = 19-Norandrosta-4, 9-diene-3,17-dione?

    People use to make the WRONG assumption about Promagnum-25 and Halodrol 50, they assumed they were the same because they have a nomenclature that is almost IDENTICAL yet they are derivatives to of steroids. I'm not a chemist, but would you educate us and care to explain how a Estra-4, 9-diene-3, 17-dione = 19-Norandrosta-4, 9-diene-3,17-dione?

    NMN
    They are the same thing. It's an 18 carbon structure (C19 is missing) with a double bond at 4 and 9, and a ketone at 3 and 17.


    People often confuse Promagnon and Halodrol because they didn't notice that progmagnon didn't have a 1-ene.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeedMassNow View Post
    So Estra-4, 9-diene-3, 17-dione = 19-Norandrosta-4, 9-diene-3,17-dione?

    People use to make the WRONG assumption about Promagnum-25 and Halodrol 50, they assumed they were the same because they have a nomenclature that is almost IDENTICAL yet they are derivatives to of steroids. I'm not a chemist, but would you educate us and care to explain how a Estra-4, 9-diene-3, 17-dione = 19-Norandrosta-4, 9-diene-3,17-dione?

    NMN
    Yes actually, Estra-4, 9-diene-3, 17-dione and 19-Norandrosta-4, 9-diene-3,17-dione are exactly the same thing. That's one of the problems nowadays. There is so many ways to write the same thing. A company just uses a different name for the same active to make it appear that they have created something new and innovative.

    Also it's been proven that Estra-4, 9-diene-3, 17-dione (or 19-Norandrosta-4, 9-diene-3,17-dione) doesn't actually convert to Tren. It's missing a double bond that the body cannot add. It is still active and still converts, but not to tren. PA proved this a while back.
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    great post (superdrol was my favorite)
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    I'm currently stacking halodrol-50 with orastan-A. What do you guys think of throwing some 11-oxo in there for the second half of the cycle? Just wondering.
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    what is 1-ad by ams considered
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew732 View Post
    what is 1-ad by ams considered
    Supposed to be 1-DHEA. Should convert to 1-Test in 2 steps as opposed to 1 like the original 1-AD. 1-DHEA can convert to both 1-Androstenedione & 1-Androstenediol, which then both convert to 1-Test with different efficacy.
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    what's a good stack with the havoc/epi?
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    stack With epi =#1 ,#2 would be O.T.or rather it's diol version


    Quote Originally Posted by ej215584 View Post
    what's a good stack with the havoc/epi?
    What I'll try to explain in simple terms is EPI is not a pro or a conversion 1st pass compound. It is a steroid with a novel design.With a anabolic Q rating of 1100 and androgenic of 92,nice ratio not to mention it's a DHT derivative dry hard results.
    A 4-chloro-17a-methyl-androst-1,4 dien-3-17-diol...the diol
    is the only difference then Oral turinabol...you see OT has a 17b-ol at it's end, the difference is a diol means that on the "A" ring at the 3 position there is a hydroxyl-group (HO) instead of an (O), and a double bond in the 1 and 4 position ,however
    the first pass conversion thru the liver yields a 80% turnover
    which is damn good compared to all the others Ive dsected molecurley .So what ever they call this one...I think something like Halo da da da something or another it will give you close to the same results as O.T. these 2 are the only ones worth purchasing since they are AAS's
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    what about 1-testosterone profile?
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    According to my personal experience h-drol IS NOT oral turinabol, nor does it feel like it in anyway. h-drol for me was WAY more androgenic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlong View Post
    What I'll try to explain in simple terms is EPI is not a pro or a conversion 1st pass compound. It is a steroid with a novel design.With a anabolic Q rating of 1100 and androgenic of 92,nice ratio not to mention it's a DHT derivative dry hard results.
    A 4-chloro-17a-methyl-androst-1,4 dien-3-17-diol...the diol
    is the only difference then Oral turinabol...you see OT has a 17b-ol at it's end, the difference is a diol means that on the "A" ring at the 3 position there is a hydroxyl-group (HO) instead of an (O), and a double bond in the 1 and 4 position ,however
    the first pass conversion thru the liver yields a 80% turnover
    which is damn good compared to all the others Ive dsected molecurley .So what ever they call this one...I think something like Halo da da da something or another it will give you close to the same results as O.T. these 2 are the only ones worth purchasing since they are AAS's
    Only 2 worth purchasing? Based on? Halo is a prohormone in reality. Some call it a prosteroid, but this is a generic term coined up by the supplement industry. It still has to undergo conversion to OT, unless you consider its preconversion activity.

    Since all 3,17-diols (& diones) attach directly to the androgen receptor before converting, they are a bit more andorgenic than their parent, and a little less anabolic. Like Halodrol is more androgenic than OT, and less anabolic. 4-AD (diol) is more andorgenic than test and less anabolic, & so on.

    Out of curiousity where did you come up with an 80% conversion rate for Halo? Generally speaking diones convert at roughly 5.61% in vivo since they're processed through 17HSD. Diols use 3HSD and convert more efficiently at 15.76% in vivo. Even though these hormones all have different levels of their own activity pre-conversion, this wouldn't effect their conversion rates to the parent compound.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevinjd_2008 View Post
    what about 1-testosterone profile?
    Check below. I don't yet have the new Ergo/AMS 1-Dhea listed but the original actual 1-Test versions are, methyl and non.

    OTC Hormone Chart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziquor View Post
    Only 2 worth purchasing? Based on? Halo is a prohormone in reality. Some call it a prosteroid, but this is a generic term coined up by the supplement industry. It still has to undergo conversion to OT, unless you consider its preconversion activity.

    Since all 3,17-diols (& diones) attach directly to the androgen receptor before converting, they are a bit more andorgenic than their parent, and a little less anabolic. Like Halodrol is more androgenic than OT, and less anabolic. 4-AD (diol) is more andorgenic than test and less anabolic, & so on.

    Out of curiousity where did you come up with an 80% conversion rate for Halo? Generally speaking diones convert at roughly 5.61% in vivo since they're processed through 17HSD. Diols use 3HSD and convert more efficiently at 15.76% in vivo. Even though these hormones all have different levels of their own activity pre-conversion, this wouldn't effect their conversion rates to the parent compound.
    The info I used is what was discussed briefly in steran molecule ph applications used in the supplement industry to yield anabolic properties ,however not truly of a native origin of common steran applications , but DIOL OT has a protection from 3hsd& 5a RED. via double bond A ring@ 1,4 and 4 chloro protects this one from most convertion/degradation..it is not reduced to a lesser metabolite, but there is a 20% loss,in the liver ,up the dose 20%. All the others I and colleges have scrutinized don't do much at all speaking only of the still legal ones, exception if still available would be Methylmasteron, 1-T was designed for injection (cypionate version), having a terrible BV rating ORALLy you'ld
    have to take 300-400 mg ED for a little activity.
    I hope this helps with your future purchases
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlong View Post
    The info I used is what was discussed briefly in steran molecule ph applications used in the supplement industry to yield anabolic properties ,however not truly of a native origin of common steran applications , but DIOL OT has a protection from 3hsd& 5a RED. via double bond A ring@ 1,4 and 4 chloro protects this one from most convertion/degradation..it is not reduced to a lesser metabolite, but there is a 20% loss,in the liver ,up the dose 20%. All the others I and colleges have scrutinized don't do much at all speaking only of the still legal ones, exception if still available would be Methylmasteron, 1-T was designed for injection (cypionate version), having a terrible BV rating ORALLy you'ld
    have to take 300-400 mg ED for a little activity.
    I hope this helps with your future purchases

    Do you have any links to these articles? Interesting info. But dosing Halodrol in the real world would put its conversion nowhere near 80%. Most who used it feel it exerts great effects at 100mg-125mg (which would be 80-100mg of OT at your #'s). I know someone who's currently running Halodrol now, and found his sweet spot at 225mg. With your 80% figure this would have him dosing 180mg of Turinabol/day which would be absurdly high.
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    Thumbs up


    Quote Originally Posted by shlong View Post
    What I'll try to explain in simple terms is EPI is not a pro or a conversion 1st pass compound. It is a steroid with a novel design.With a anabolic Q rating of 1100 and androgenic of 92,nice ratio not to mention it's a DHT derivative dry hard results.
    A 4-chloro-17a-methyl-androst-1,4 dien-3-17-diol...the diol
    is the only difference then Oral turinabol...you see OT has a 17b-ol at it's end, the difference is a diol means that on the "A" ring at the 3 position there is a hydroxyl-group (HO) instead of an (O), and a double bond in the 1 and 4 position ,however
    the first pass conversion thru the liver yields a 80% turnover
    which is damn good compared to all the others Ive dsected molecurley .So what ever they call this one...I think something like Halo da da da something or another it will give you close to the same results as O.T. these 2 are the only ones worth purchasing since they are AAS's
    Quote Originally Posted by shlong View Post
    The info I used is what was discussed briefly in steran molecule ph applications used in the supplement industry to yield anabolic properties ,however not truly of a native origin of common steran applications , but DIOL OT has a protection from 3hsd& 5a RED. via double bond A ring@ 1,4 and 4 chloro protects this one from most convertion/degradation..it is not reduced to a lesser metabolite, but there is a 20% loss,in the liver ,up the dose 20%. All the others I and colleges have scrutinized don't do much at all speaking only of the still legal ones, exception if still available would be Methylmasteron, 1-T was designed for injection (cypionate version), having a terrible BV rating ORALLy you'ld
    have to take 300-400 mg ED for a little activity.
    I hope this helps with your future purchases
    Interesting, thanks for the info!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziquor View Post
    Do you have any links to these articles? Interesting info. But dosing Halodrol in the real world would put its conversion nowhere near 80%. Most who used it feel it exerts great effects at 100mg-125mg (which would be 80-100mg of OT at your #'s). I know someone who's currently running Halodrol now, and found his sweet spot at 225mg. With your 80% figure this would have him dosing 180mg of Turinabol/day which would be absurdly high.
    OT is not a strong aas to begin with ,50 androgenic and slightly
    over 100 anabolic. the common dosage would be in the 70- 140mg
    range anyway since it has a very low hepatic load and is considered
    a weaker compound it was dispensed at 7- 14 tabs a day (10mg)
    it's not a anavar or D-bol by no means.4-chloro-dihydromethyltestosterone
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlong View Post
    OT is not a strong aas to begin with ,50 androgenic and slightly
    over 100 anabolic. the common dosage would be in the 70- 140mg
    range anyway since it has a very low hepatic load and is considered
    a weaker compound it was dispensed at 7- 14 tabs a day (10mg)
    it's not a anavar or D-bol by no means.4-chloro-dihydromethyltestosterone
    I agree it's a milder methyl, but 140mg? Wow I've never seen anyone dose over 100mg, and that was in an extreme in vivo testing with rats. I assume your not in the US and by ,50 I assume you mean 0.5? I've seen OT's androgenic # listed anywhere from ~0 to 8.
  21. Never enough
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    I can't recall seeing anyone dosing OT over 60mg
    This space for rent

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    1, 4 AD Bold 200 + Epistane stacked together. run bold 200 weeks 1-8, and epistane weeks 5-8
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    im currently back in lifting mode after a 5 year break (high school)
    football lol , any way i lost alot of mass and since i havent been in a gym for a while i thought i take a short cut , the pro-hormone way which is stupid once u hear my stack , i should just go with the real stuff but unfortunately i dont have any reliable sources ,


    stack
    20mg of sd
    20mg of pp
    10 mg of fini
    (btw this is ridiculous on ur liver and i strongly dont recommend this stack for endomorphs .... )


    i realized i have a problem eating as well is this gonna be a problem with the stack im taking ??
    im seriously itching to get jakked so far ive been on this stack for 8 days and vasculars are serious , pumps look crazy and ill but with out eating as much as i should i feel like its a waste ??
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    Quote Originally Posted by AssBreaker500 View Post
    im currently back in lifting mode after a 5 year break (high school)
    football lol , any way i lost alot of mass and since i havent been in a gym for a while i thought i take a short cut , the pro-hormone way which is stupid once u hear my stack , i should just go with the real stuff but unfortunately i dont have any reliable sources ,


    stack
    20mg of sd
    20mg of pp
    10 mg of fini
    (btw this is ridiculous on ur liver and i strongly dont recommend this stack for endomorphs .... )


    i realized i have a problem eating as well is this gonna be a problem with the stack im taking ??
    im seriously itching to get jakked so far ive been on this stack for 8 days and vasculars are serious , pumps look crazy and ill but with out eating as much as i should i feel like its a waste ??
    Eat more. AAS won't give you **** if you don't eat enough anyhow, except a smaller wallet. Just eat more, period.
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    eat eat eat eat!!! lucky for me, my mom's making arroz y pollo every other night, so i'm getting a steady supply of protein and carbs. . . gotta love chicken, rice and beans. . . yum
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziquor View Post
    Eat more. AAS won't give you **** if you don't eat enough anyhow, except a smaller wallet. Just eat more, period.
    wait, beyond a smaller wallet it could also give you gyno. you left that out....

    If you are worried about eating enough to gain the weight, don't forget that you also will need to eat more after gaining 10lbs of muscle, and your daily protein need will be higher, so your long term eating expenses go up as well....
    This space for rent

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    Compound - H-drol
    Side effect (putting that mildly) Diverticulitis
    Not fun at all.
    Moral: No more of any of these "mild" compounds, ever.
    Good luck.
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    I'm amazed ziqour didn't lose all his rep points while I was gone.
    Truly fascinating.

    You look small for someone who's done all you claim to have done and such an expert.....Did you buy a bow flex?
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    RG, you really think H-Drol caused this?
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    I really do, I had suspicions, and now my googling shows a definite connection.
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    eMedicine - Diverticular Disease : Article by A Antoine Kazzi
    High fat and beef diets also cause diverticular disease, probably for the .... use of steroids, immunocompromised patients, and right-sided diverticulitis ...
    www.emedicine.com/emerg/TOPIC152.HTM - 121k - Cached - Similar pages
    Delayed diagnosis of steroid-induced colon diverticulum perforation
    Delayed diagnosis of steroid-induced colon diverticulum perforation ... substance and fibroblasts and cause alterations in structural protein synthesis, ...
    www.nzma.org.nz/journal/116-1183/631/ - 22k - Cached - Similar pages
    ScienceDirect - The Lancet : Oral steroids as a cause of ...
    Oral steroids as a cause of diverticulum perforation. DrAndreas T Kouyialis MDa, Corresponding Author Contact Information , E-mail The Corresponding Author ...
    linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0140673606679294 - Similar pages
    Acute diverticulitis in heart- and lung transplant patients
    scribes our experience with acute diverticulitis and its .... Steroids cause a. nonspecific antiinflammatory response by blocking. IL-1. production that, in ...
    http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...2001.tb00003.x - Similar pages
    Oral steroids as a cause of diverticulum perforati...[Lancet. 2006 ...
    PubMed is a service of the US National Library of Medicine that includes over 16 million citations from MEDLINE and other life science journals for ...
    www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16399158 - Similar pages
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    Good luck to all of you. You might feel great now, but you keep playing with the bull and you'll get....................
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoidGracie View Post
    I really do, I had suspicions, and now my googling shows a definite connection.
    I am very sorry for your diagnosis.

    I don't mean to be insensitive but diverticulitis can be congenital, is very common and not to mention has hundreds of other predisposing factors besides your use of oral steroids.

    You are drawing a conclusion based on a very casual coincidence rather than causation.

    If I google well enough and long enough I will find that I am already dead and have not had the sense to stop breathing.

    Again, I am sorry for your condition, and wish you well.
  34. Never enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by B5150 View Post
    I will find that I am already dead and have not had the sense to stop breathing.
    sort of like Keith Richards?
    This space for rent

    Phenadrol Log http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...-hell-did.html - AMAZING fat loss results so far
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoidGracie View Post
    Good luck to all of you. You might feel great now, but you keep playing with the bull and you'll get....................
    RoidG, sorry to hear of your issues as well. I understand the point that you are trying to make. My thoughts are that these are all new compounds. WE are the "clinical trials" so to speak, knowhattamean? Anyone who doesn't truly realize this has it twisted.

    ...and if your beef with Ziquor is the mention of H-Drol being mild, I would have to second that rating. If you view all logs as "trials" as I mentioned earlier, you must categorize the compound by how the majority reacts. In that case I say that H-Drol is mild even though some users (like you) may have adverse "side effects".
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    I feel fine now. At a bare minimum, I'm convinced it aggravated a possible pre-disposition, however, I'm confident I wouldn't have had the attack had I not been on cycle. It happened almost literally at the end of cycle, probably about day 32. At least I am smart enough never to mess with these compounds again, or any supp for that matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoidGracie View Post
    I feel fine now. At a bare minimum, I'm convinced it aggravated a possible pre-disposition, however, I'm confident I wouldn't have had the attack had I not been on cycle. It happened almost literally at the end of cycle, probably about day 32. At least I am smart enough never to mess with these compounds again, or any supp for that matter.
    You're right RoidG, building muscle is great but not at the cost of your health. Glad you're better.
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    I think most likely, you can in general get away with more when you are younger. I'd really like to see where everyone is 10 years from now, those who are doing cycle after cycle of these designer orals. My guess is, a few won't be here (among the living) at all.

    Yes, quite dumb for me having the muscle and strength I have from working out naturally. It was an experiment and I've learned my lesson. And these companies will keep making their money, from dummies like I was.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoidGracie View Post
    I'm amazed ziqour didn't lose all his rep points while I was gone.
    Truly fascinating.

    You look small for someone who's done all you claim to have done and such an expert.....Did you buy a bow flex?

    Interesting, but I've never claimed to have ran many anabolics at all unless you're confused with someone else. In fact in the past few years all I've 'ran' was an H-Drol cycle.

    Sorry to hear of your health issues, I hope only the best outcome.
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    Sometimes making a compound methylated can change it's AA properties. Any of you chemical nomenclature guys know if methyl stenbolone differs significantly from stenbolone in terms of it's anabolic/androgenic profile?
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