Sorry Tonew's questions seem a little suspicious. I'm kinda paranoid all the time lol. I mean honestly its kinda based on how you want to go about it. Havoc is an anti-estrogen (anyone correct me if I'm off base lol) and 11-oxo is an cortisol blocker, so its two completely different things. Also, most people go for (its more effective for me if I do it in this fashion) cutting and bulking. One phase for adding mass, one for losing fat. But you're kinda openning a can of worms, depends on age, lifting experience, weight, bf%, all kinds of things. And no offense but you're questions sound really suspicious. Any other guys on this forum can refute me if I'm way off base.

Again, I am sorry. I'm not sure what are the wrong questions to ask?
I just listed the two products because that is what I have read about in the threads. Well at least what I can make out of them....I am lookinn to bulk and cut yes you are right. I am looking to add size. Without water.
I really want to know if I can order this without wondering if I am breaking any laws?? I am not affiliated with any law enforcement at all. But I really am trying to do this right? I have purchased a long time ago at GNC AD-1 and liked it then I could not get it any longer. I know it was banned or something??? So What would you recomend I get and can I do it without worries??

Regardless of what you go with, the general consensus is that you can't bulk and cut at the sametime. That is, if you are bulking, keep it clean, but bulk and expect to put some fat on. When cutting, you go superclean, try to rid yourself of fat through a calorie defecit, but expect to lose some muscle. The point being that when you bulk, to put on more muscle than you will lose whilst cutting. It takes a long time, and proper planning combined with understanding your body to get it right. Any product worth it's salt simply makes these goals easier to attain.

I understand what you are saying. I have used many products in the past. Mostly from Muscletech. Then I used some prohormones from GNC..AD-1...etc but this was years ago. I am looking to get back into it and am looking in the store and trying to do some research on what supplements I should take. I have the normal supplements. But looking for something that will give me something extra like AD-1 did.
I have been out of it for several years like I said and not sure what all the banned stuff is. I have been reading the posts about the supplements that people are taking. I am simply looking to bulk then cut. Yes, I understand you can not do both at the same time but I also do not want to gain unwanted water. I want to stay hard.

With all this said, What would anyone recomend? Also I want to make sure what I am ordering is legal in my state. IL. I am not part of any thing other than trying to get information? I guess if everyone does not want to answer my question,,,,,I should take that as a hint?? But I really want to make some big gains like in the past???
Any help????

Okay, just to clear this, Muscletech is widely hated. They are over-priced, and most of their products arent anything more than some ****tail of very low doses that you could make on your own for a fraction of the price. And the first post in this forum shows a list of wet and dry compounds that can be taken.

I guess I'm not going to get any answers??? All I asked was is this stuff still Legal? I read that it has not been baned yet but this was a post fro 9-07. Not sure if anythin has changed?

I do not care if Muscletech is hated. This is something I used years ago. I am not looking for anything but help. If you do not want to help that's fine but i'm not looking for an argument. Just some help in getting big. Havok seems to be the talk and I am just looking for some help. Should I stack up before it is banned? Is it banned? Just simple questions.
Thanks

Originally Posted by Tonew

I guess I'm not going to get any answers??? All I asked was is this stuff still Legal? I read that it has not been baned yet but this was a post fro 9-07. Not sure if anythin has changed?

I do not care if Muscletech is hated. This is something I used years ago. I am not looking for anything but help. If you do not want to help that's fine but i'm not looking for an argument. Just some help in getting big. Havok seems to be the talk and I am just looking for some help. Should I stack up before it is banned? Is it banned? Just simple questions.
Thanks

pretty sure its not banned. its a good product. why don't you start researching havoc now and figure out if its right for you, then start a thread outlining a proposed cycle and go from there. not saying that you are, but asking for people to do the work for you will get you nowhere.

Originally Posted by Tonew

I guess I'm not going to get any answers??? All I asked was is this stuff still Legal? I read that it has not been baned yet but this was a post fro 9-07. Not sure if anythin has changed?

I do not care if Muscletech is hated. This is something I used years ago. I am not looking for anything but help. If you do not want to help that's fine but i'm not looking for an argument. Just some help in getting big. Havok seems to be the talk and I am just looking for some help. Should I stack up before it is banned? Is it banned? Just simple questions.
Thanks

Tonew..... Seriously, no one means you any disrespect... people aren't answering your questions because they are very easily answered by using the search function located towards the upper-right side of every page in the forum. If everytime someone asked a question which the answer could be easily found, this board would be filled with the same Q&A in many, many, many threads. Do yourself a BIG favor and do some reasearch and read read read.



Welcome to AM, by the way

And if you're wondering if something is banned, if you can buy it from a supplement store, most of the time its still legal. If a law is passed banning it, most times they can sell off whats left that they have. And I'm sorry if I seem like I'm disrespecting you, I certainly don't mean to. Search around for the big names at the top of this list, and you'll see a lot for sale. If its a big company like bodybuilding.com, sbmuscle.com, nutraplanet, or any other big supp companies, its not illegal (yet). Also, there is a thread here somewhere about people stocking up, me being one of them. Check it out on the search function.

Thank everyone for their help. I will continue to read up and do my own research. I know the questions that I asked are not just a simple yes-no answer. So, I am sorry if I was short with anyone. Guess I just want to get going!
Thanks again! Any suggestions would be great!

BTW, 1-AD is banned. It was one of the first to go. I have read alot of good things about Epi and Havoc, but due to popularity the board sponsors have not had an easy time keeping it stocked. As far as I am aware, those two are still legal. I think the key thing to do is look at the popular compounds, and if they are hormonal in any way, treat them with the same respect (PCT, liver support, and dosing protocol) as you would an oral steroid.

OK, so I just got 2 bottles of CEL's P-Plex and M-Drol... I know they are both liver toxic and wanted to gather some opinions on running them both together. I've run Havoc once previously, and Andro (a few years ago).

Is it beneficial to run wet/dry compounds like the Phera and Superdrol clones together like that or would it maybe be safer to just run them seperately with PCT in between?

Any help in planning this/these cycles would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to PM me if that would be easier. Thanks!

Running a Superdrol clone and Phera-Plex clone simultaneously would not be advised by very many, if any on THIS board. The problem that would arrise is that too much of each product would be taken.

Have some done it, yes. Does the potential to hazardous consequences increase, definately.

And since you already knew this, my question to you is, are you just hoping for someone to tell you it's a good idea and your results will be great?

GO FOR IT! Let us know how it goes and if your body starts shutting down, you will be able to tell tell the doc why.

If you do opt for it, take less of each, preferrably less of the Superdrolish compound as it seems to affect the body more harshly in most. And, you better have all proper ancillaries in hand and may as well start taking liver (and kidney support) ASAP. (Is Cycle Support still out there?) If you choose to do it, you could take 10 mg of superdrol and 10-20mg of PP ED.

Running them back to back is not a great idea because methylated compounds should not be used for extended periods of use, i.e. more than 4-5 weeks. it usually takes a week or two to fully feel the effects. Stopping after 2 weeks to start another is pointless, just run one.

Maybe some others have better feedback

^Thanks for the info D_town... Actually, I was more looking for someone to tell me along the lines of what you said; that it's not a good idea. I ordered a couple of both, so I think I'm going to run them separately (spaced out with months in between)...

I'm actually thinking of pulsing b/c I'm a bit worried about gyno, but haven't decided yet. I'm kinda wanting to do more research about dosing, etc before I start either. Any suggestions on dosing for either P-Plex or M-Drol on either a Pulse or straight 3-4 week cycle?

And ya I got Cycle Support coming with them for shiz and I'm gonna try Torem this time b/c of the less toxic property (compared to Tamox which I used after Havoc).

Originally Posted by D_town

Running a Superdrol clone and Phera-Plex clone simultaneously would not be advised by very many, if any on THIS board. The problem that would arrise is that too much of each product would be taken.

Have some done it, yes. Does the potential to hazardous consequences increase, definately.

And since you already knew this, my question to you is, are you just hoping for someone to tell you it's a good idea and your results will be great?

GO FOR IT! Let us know how it goes and if your body starts shutting down, you will be able to tell tell the doc why.

If you do opt for it, take less of each, preferrably less of the Superdrolish compound as it seems to affect the body more harshly in most. And, you better have all proper ancillaries in hand and may as well start taking liver (and kidney support) ASAP. (Is Cycle Support still out there?) If you choose to do it, you could take 10 mg of superdrol and 10-20mg of PP ED.

Running them back to back is not a great idea because methylated compounds should not be used for extended periods of use, i.e. more than 4-5 weeks. it usually takes a week or two to fully feel the effects. Stopping after 2 weeks to start another is pointless, just run one.

Maybe some others have better feedback

i have a question since u were telling dabulls guy that he better have liver and kidney support, what would that be, i mean when i have taken regular juice like d-bol or decca etc. io just always tooke HCG or nolvadex, is there something more i should have taken or do u have to take different stuff when u are using the designer roids

Originally Posted by koman

i have a question since u were telling dabulls guy that he better have liver and kidney support, what would that be, i mean when i have taken regular juice like d-bol or decca etc. io just always tooke HCG or nolvadex, is there something more i should have taken or do u have to take different stuff when u are using the designer roids

Here ya go, broham http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/a...-servings.html

Originally Posted by Leggo my Ego

Here ya go, broham http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/a...-servings.html

good looking out, now i thought i was supposed to take this after my cycle but i was reading some reviews and guys are taking it during so how should i use this and should i use this with or instead of hcg or nolvadex,

Originally Posted by koman

good looking out, now i thought i was supposed to take this after my cycle but i was reading some reviews and guys are taking it during so how should i use this and should i use this with or instead of hcg or nolvadex,

Use the Cycle Support during cycle and through Post cycle therapy. I would use the HCG during cycle and The nolva post cycle.

Cycle support does nothing to restore your down-regulated HTPA, it is just protedtive of liver, blood pressure, cholesterol, kidneys, etc.

Koman, I think you might be confusing Cycle Support with POST Cycle Support. POST Cycle Support is what people who aren't able to or aren't comfortable with obtaining a SERM are using. PCS is being used in place of a SERM and some are also using it as a stand-alone product as a test booster. Cycle Support is usually used at least two weeks before cycle, while on cycle, and then through post cycle therapy.

Originally Posted by Cycle Support

Anabolic Innovation's Cycle Support

It has been long known that anabolic steroids and, in more cases, oral anabolic steroids has a profound effect on general health. This often time takes a toll on your body cycle after cycle if it is not taken care of. Anabolic Innovations set out to solve this problem, but in a way that everyone could not only afford but could also appreciate, with effective dosages and a give-it-all-you-got mentality.

With the onset of new designer steroids such as Superdrol and Halodrol, people are having larger and larger problems to deal with that range from a decreasing lipid profile to heightened blood pressure. Although these new drugs are great, they often take such a toll on your body that they must be severely limited in use until certain bodily profiles are improved. Often sifting through the forums proves tedious in that supplement after supplement must be bought in order to improve these various profiles, often costing you as much as $80 to recover fully from a cycle that only cost you $80 in the first place.

The ingredients in Anabolic Innovations Cycle Support have been carefully reviewed and backed up by countless studies (which will be added to the bottom of this writeup). Instead of putting in only basic ingredients we have taken it to the next level and gone above and beyond what is added by most supplement companies offering only minor protection/support and put in large doses and special ingredients that other companies don't offer. The best part about Anabolic Innovation's Cycle Support? It will cost you as little as $1 per day with effective dosages.

Originally Posted by POST Cycle Support

You have made great gains during your cycle and now you want to retain as many of those gains as possible. You also want to get your body back up and running on its own as quickly and efficiently as possible. The answer is: POST CYCLE SUPPORT by Anabolic Innovations!

Originally Posted by stxnas

Koman, I think you might be confusing Cycle Support with POST Cycle Support. POST Cycle Support is what people who aren't able to or aren't comfortable with obtaining a SERM are using. PCS is being used in place of a SERM and some are also using it as a stand-alone product as a test booster. Cycle Support is usually used at least two weeks before cycle, while on cycle, and then through post cycle therapy.

Oh, yes... Post cycle Support. Another solid recommendation.

Originally Posted by stxnas

Koman, I think you might be confusing Cycle Support with POST Cycle Support. POST Cycle Support is what people who aren't able to or aren't comfortable with obtaining a SERM are using. PCS is being used in place of a SERM and some are also using it as a stand-alone product as a test booster. Cycle Support is usually used at least two weeks before cycle, while on cycle, and then through post cycle therapy.

pardon the ignorance what is SERM, also has anyone here tried Lowtiyel, it is a testorone creme or has anyone had any experiences with the creme, i want to thank everyone for their help and education

Originally Posted by koman

pardon the ignorance what is SERM, also has anyone here tried Lowtiyel, it is a testorone creme or has anyone had any experiences with the creme, i want to thank everyone for their help and education

SERM= Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator
tamoxifen (nolva)
clomiphene
toremifene
raloxifen

Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERMs) are a class of medication that acts on the estrogen receptor. A characteristic that distinguishes these substances from pure receptor agonists and antagonists is that their action is different in various tissues, thereby granting the possibility to selectively inhibit or stimulate estrogen-like action in various tissues.
Some SERMs may be good replacements for hormone replacement therapy (HRT), which recent studies have called into question, although the above agents still have an unacceptably high risk of thrombosis and other side-effects to allow for widespread use.
SERMs are also commonly used during PCT or Post Cycle Therapy after the use of anabolic steroids. Bodybuilders who take testosterone supplements will often experience testicular shutdown and gynecomastia, also known as man-boobs, after a steroid cycle, because the body will attempt to balance estrogen with increased testosterone levels. This increase in estrogen can produce gynecomastia, so body builders will usually cycle a SERM after a steroid cycle to ensure that their body is not flooded with excess estrogen and to restore testicular production.

And as far as the test cream goes, its probably a mexican version of Androgel which is a weak topical 1% testosterone preparation that would require 5-10 times the package recommendation (practically bathing in the sh*t) to get your desired results... I would just opt for some cyp or Sustenon 250 instead... unless I am mistaken about the product in question

Originally Posted by Leggo my Ego

SERM= Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator
tamoxifen (nolva)
clomiphene
toremifene
raloxifen

Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERMs) are a class of medication that acts on the estrogen receptor. A characteristic that distinguishes these substances from pure receptor agonists and antagonists is that their action is different in various tissues, thereby granting the possibility to selectively inhibit or stimulate estrogen-like action in various tissues.
Some SERMs may be good replacements for hormone replacement therapy (HRT), which recent studies have called into question, although the above agents still have an unacceptably high risk of thrombosis and other side-effects to allow for widespread use.
SERMs are also commonly used during post cycle therapy or Post Cycle Therapy after the use of anabolic steroids. Bodybuilders who take testosterone supplements will often experience testicular shutdown and gynecomastia, also known as man-boobs, after a steroid cycle, because the body will attempt to balance estrogen with increased testosterone levels. This increase in estrogen can produce gynecomastia, so body builders will usually cycle a SERM after a steroid cycle to ensure that their body is not flooded with excess estrogen and to restore testicular production.

And as far as the test cream goes, its probably a mexican version of Androgel which is a weak topical 1% testosterone preparation that would require 5-10 times the package recommendation (practically bathing in the sh*t) to get your desired results... I would just opt for some cyp or Sustenon 250 instead... unless I am mistaken about the product in question

So in your opinion what is better cycle support or Serm, i have always referred to Serms as stuff to make my nuts drop, i.e. hcg or nolvadex, i notice hcg isnto on your serms list.
Lowtiyel is made in italy but sold in mexico, it comes in little packages and it containss 50mg of test, it says that 10% is absorbed by the body, so i wonder what happens to the other 90%, thanks for all your help so far

Originally Posted by koman

So in your opinion what is better cycle support or Serm, i have always referred to Serms as stuff to make my nuts drop, i.e. hcg or nolvadex, i notice hcg isnto on your serms list.
Lowtiyel is made in italy but sold in mexico, it comes in little packages and it containss 50mg of test, it says that 10% is absorbed by the body, so i wonder what happens to the other 90%, thanks for all your help so far

Well both are essential really. One is not a stand-in for the other. HCG isnt a SERM but definately is effective at optimizing natural test production and many feel is best utilized on-cycle.

Lowtiyel sounds decent

Originally Posted by Leggo my Ego

Well both are essential really. One is not a stand-in for the other. HCG isnt a SERM but definately is effective at optimizing natural test production and many feel is best utilized on-cycle.

Lowtiyel sounds decent

so if use hcg or serm while on cycle what should i use post cycle and for how long, once again thank u

Originally Posted by koman

so if use hcg or serm while on cycle what should i use post cycle and for how long, once again thank u

I would use like this:

during cycle: cycle support, hcg
post cycle: cycle support, serm

Spend some time reading here http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/

Why would one need to combine a research serm with PCS, I would think one or the other is sufficient, with a heavy lean towards the serm being the preferred stand alone product. I thought the main gist of PCS was to replace the potential dangerous and illegal research chems for people doing a mild cycle.

He said Cycle Support, not POST Cycle Support. Two separate products...yes, it's confusing.

In the future there will be a product called Stoked that will be the same as PCS...this will greatly help avoid any of the current confusion

(Check the sig to save on your next purchase of ANY Anabolic Innovations products @ Nutraplanet!!!)

Originally Posted by stxnas

He said Cycle Support, not POST Cycle Support. Two separate products...yes, it's confusing.

In the future there will be a product called Stoked that will be the same as PCS...this will greatly help avoid any of the current confusion

(Check the sig to save on your next purchase of ANY Anabolic Innovations products @ Nutraplanet!!!)

u are right i am confused i have been lifting and on and off the juice for about 20yrs and never heard of this cycle or post cyle support, i always just took nolvadex or hcg. how should i take or what amount of cylce support and or post cycle should i take. And if i had to take one or the other meaning serm and cycle support or hcg or post cycle which should i take if i had to

I know they are two different products, somehow the first time I read it I went right past the ":" colon, and saw post cycle....I know, I use PCS, as my serm.
Cheers