Originally Posted by koman

i have been cycling on and off for about 20 yrs, have tried just about everything there is, but i just joined this site and after reading of all these designer roids that i have never heard of, how long has most of this stuff been around, and where would i purchase it because right now i just go to Tijuana, since i live in san diego where i get the normal decca, winny, sustenon 250ect. thank u

A simple google search will come up with much of the products, some can be difficult to locate if discontinued, and our sponsors definately have some of the products listed.

Welcome to AM.

I am new to this site and was reading some of the threads, i feel like i woke up and am in a different world, i have always used steriods and had incredible, incredible gains and now i come to this site and i read about prohormones, what is that? and 17 methyl bol and m1p and the list is just endless. Are these supplements or what is all this stuff. Is it just the sponsers of this site pushing their product? I mean i have tried so many things from creatine and VO2 and HMB, etc. all this stuff that was supposedly great and i never ever got close to the results i got when i was on the juice.

So my question to all u that are knowlegeable with these products is how comparable are they to being on the juice, maybe they arent as effective but have less side effects i dont know. What would be the most effective stack to take for strength, , muscle gain and at the same time staying relatively cut, i know what i would take if i was on the juice.
thank u for your time and hpefully u can educate me ,

Originally Posted by koman

I am new to this site and was reading some of the threads, i feel like i woke up and am in a different world, i have always used steriods and had incredible, incredible gains and now i come to this site and i read about prohormones, what is that? and 17 methyl bol and m1p and the list is just endless. Are these supplements or what is all this stuff. Is it just the sponsers of this site pushing their product? I mean i have tried so many things from creatine and VO2 and HMB, etc. all this stuff that was supposedly great and i never ever got close to the results i got when i was on the juice.

So my question to all u that are knowlegeable with these products is how comparable are they to being on the juice, maybe they arent as effective but have less side effects i dont know. What would be the most effective stack to take for strength, , muscle gain and at the same time staying relatively cut, i know what i would take if i was on the juice.
thank u for your time and hpefully u can educate me ,

As reiterated all over the board... The compounds that you inquire about are technically and chemically steroids, very few 'pro-hormones' are left on the market. They are different formulations upon and modifications of things that you have probably already had experience with. Many of the products are methylated, so as to compare to 'juice,' one should not and cannot really compare to an injectable steroid, but maybe other orals. There were readily available oil based and transdermal versions of prohormones in past years, but those are gone as well. : (

As compared to HMB, CLA, ZMA, and many others, there is no viable comparisons in terms of strength and muscle aggregation. Creatine suits many well in terms of assistance or aid in a workout program, but by and large is not closely comparable in the fact that you change your lifestyle/ habits (such as eating habits and workout routine) based on a compound you ingest.

All the information in this thread and for the most part on this board is factual and from real world results, no merely marketing hype to sell a product. This board offers ideology to techniques, such as 'pulsing' that if you are unfamiliar with you should read up on; then form your own thoughts regarding if it is something you would want to try.

Is it true that many of the sponsors of AM produce the weightlifting supplements, yes. As do countless other companies. But, the companies of AM are reputable as stated by thousands and you can compare the results of others who take the same product. Many of our sponsors run tests on their products to display their integrity to our world of physical fitness.

Other companies, Nutraplanet being key, is an online retailer that sells various products by various companies at great prices. I have about 10 of their wonderful T-Shirts.


But to answer your question about what you should take. LOL
What's my fee?

Take 11-oxo and Havoc or Epistane (or one of the other clones) for 4-6 weeks or pulse.

Originally Posted by D_town

As reiterated all over the board... The compounds that you inquire about are technically and chemically steroids, very few 'pro-hormones' are left on the market. They are different formulations upon and modifications of things that you have probably already had experience with. Many of the products are methylated, so as to compare to 'juice,' one should not and cannot really compare to an injectable steroid, but maybe other orals. There were readily available oil based and transdermal versions of prohormones in past years, but those are gone as well. : (

As compared to HMB, CLA, ZMA, and many others, there is no viable comparisons in terms of strength and muscle aggregation. Creatine suits many well in terms of assistance or aid in a workout program, but by and large is not closely comparable in the fact that you change your lifestyle/ habits (such as eating habits and workout routine) based on a compound you ingest.

All the information in this thread and for the most part on this board is factual and from real world results, no merely marketing hype to sell a product. This board offers ideology to techniques, such as 'pulsing' that if you are unfamiliar with you should read up on; then form your own thoughts regarding if it is something you would want to try.

Is it true that many of the sponsors of AM produce the weightlifting supplements, yes. As do countless other companies. But, the companies of AM are reputable as stated by thousands and you can compare the results of others who take the same product. Many of our sponsors run tests on their products to display their integrity to our world of physical fitness.

Other companies, Nutraplanet being key, is an online retailer that sells various products by various companies at great prices. I have about 10 of their wonderful T-Shirts.


But to answer your question about what you should take. LOL
What's my fee?

Take 11-oxo and Havoc or Epistane (or one of the other clones) for 4-6 weeks or pulse.

good post!

one other thing, these 'designer' steroids DO require PCT's!!

Well thank u for your time and information, there is nothing worse than to be misinformed or uneducated and harming yourself. So what is the difference between the regular steriods i have taken, and these newer desiger products, they both seem to have side effects? and i looked up pulsing and i got everything from planetary pulsing to arterial pulsing, is there a link u can direct me to.

I have always thought that bodybuilders are like a brotherhood and should share their knowledge and experiences like is being done here, what results should i expect with the stack u recommended, thank u very much for you time and education . Also i keep reading superdrol, gives good results are the side effects not worth it, kind of like Anadrol 50, which is very good but is very toxic on the liver

Originally Posted by koman

Well thank u for your time and information, there is nothing worse than to be misinformed or uneducated and harming yourself. So what is the difference between the regular steriods i have taken, and these newer desiger products, they both seem to have side effects? and i looked up pulsing and i got everything from planetary pulsing to arterial pulsing, is there a link u can direct me to.

I have always thought that bodybuilders are like a brotherhood and should share their knowledge and experiences like is being done here, what results should i expect with the stack u recommended, thank u very much for you time and education . Also i keep reading superdrol, gives good results are the side effects not worth it, kind of like Anadrol 50, which is very good but is very toxic on the liver

this is the pulsing thread, it has a ton of good info...
How to "pulse" orals

superdrol is good, although you're right, it is liver toxic and does a number on your lipids as well. i experienced a 15lb gain in lbm my first cycle, which was only from 3 weeks of being on. of course those were first cycle gains but i have experienced at least 6-8 lbs lbm each cycle since.

havoc and epistane are the same compound from different manufacturers. these compounds are a bit milder than superdrol. they have both been run and logged quite a lot on this board and the majority of users experience significant increases in strength and size. this one and superdrol both are very popular compounds to pulse btw.

Originally Posted by sfearl1

this is the pulsing thread, it has a ton of good info...
How to "pulse" orals

superdrol is good, although you're right, it is liver toxic and does a number on your lipids as well. i experienced a 15lb gain in lbm my first cycle, which was only from 3 weeks of being on. of course those were first cycle gains but i have experienced at least 6-8 lbs lbm each cycle since.

havoc and epistane are the same compound from different manufacturers. these compounds are a bit milder than superdrol. they have both been run and logged quite a lot on this board and the majority of users experience significant increases in strength and size. this one and superdrol both are very popular compounds to pulse btw.

Well thank u for all your information, i was reading the steriods forum and read u were on your 12th week of test cypionate, so my question is i am a professional wrestler and had a hip replacement and had some other complications so i was away from the gym for a year and had a bunch of medicines that made me gain weiight so now that i am back, i didnt want to get back into anything toxic like anadrol 50, i think 20 yrs of jucing there comes a time when u gotta look into milder things, especially since i already have a foundation and experience.

I was going to stack equapoise wth test cyp and some decca, 2 weeks on 2 weeks off, no orals, but then i read about all these other things on here, these designer roids, so my question to u since u have used both. Do u use both, one over the other, help for someone who is kind of confused, i dont want to waste my time, if staying on the juice is going to give me better results, but if i can get similar results with less side effects then i will use the designer roids, thank u

Originally Posted by koman

Well thank u for all your information, i was reading the steriods forum and read u were on your 12th week of test cypionate, so my question is i am a professional wrestler and had a hip replacement and had some other complications so i was away from the gym for a year and had a bunch of medicines that made me gain weiight so now that i am back, i didnt want to get back into anything toxic like anadrol 50, i think 20 yrs of jucing there comes a time when u gotta look into milder things, especially since i already have a foundation and experience.

I was going to stack equapoise wth test cyp and some decca, 2 weeks on 2 weeks off, no orals, but then i read about all these other things on here, these designer roids, so my question to u since u have used both. Do u use both, one over the other, help for someone who is kind of confused, i dont want to waste my time, if staying on the juice is going to give me better results, but if i can get similar results with less side effects then i will use the designer roids, thank u

Hey koman,
The majority of the effective designers are methylated and therefore will be the same toxicity wise as if you are taking Anadrol or dbol. I think that if you are wanting to cycle effectively and safely with little or no toxicity, the cycle that you mentioned with test, EQ and Deca would be the way to go. I'm curious however, why you would go 2 weeks on and two weeks off though?? Test cyp and deca are longer lasting esters and cycling this way wouldn't mitigate HTPA shut down. If it were me, I would run 500-600mg test cyp, 400-600mg deca 15 weeks and pulse an effective designer such as Superdrol or Epistane/Havoc on your Workout days for weeks 1-8... Just my $.02 Welcome to AM, by the way.

Originally Posted by koman

Well thank u for all your information, i was reading the steriods forum and read u were on your 12th week of test cypionate, so my question is i am a professional wrestler and had a hip replacement and had some other complications so i was away from the gym for a year and had a bunch of medicines that made me gain weiight so now that i am back, i didnt want to get back into anything toxic like anadrol 50, i think 20 yrs of jucing there comes a time when u gotta look into milder things, especially since i already have a foundation and experience.

I was going to stack equapoise wth test cyp and some decca, 2 weeks on 2 weeks off, no orals, but then i read about all these other things on here, these designer roids, so my question to u since u have used both. Do u use both, one over the other, help for someone who is kind of confused, i dont want to waste my time, if staying on the juice is going to give me better results, but if i can get similar results with less side effects then i will use the designer roids, thank u

well this is my first injectable cycle i'm on right now and have never experienced these types of gains with the oral designer cycles i have ran in the past. but, i think you hit the nail right on the head when you asked if you can get similar results with less side effects. you already know that everything that gives good results is going to have some sort of sides. with that said, i would go with a 5-6 week havoc or epistane (same thing) cycle or a longer pulse cycle if thats what you decide to do. after this test cycle, i am definitely a bigger fan of the longer steady gains rather than the quick sudden 10-15lb gain in a couple weeks so a pulse would be good imo. you could easily get 10-15 lbs out of a longer pulse and it sounds like you've been natural for a little while so you should respond quite well. run some test with a pulse and you'd have great gains with little sides.

I don't think 11-OXO binds to the corticosteroid receptor, it simply blocks the 11HSD1R enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol.

Originally Posted by Leggo my Ego

Hey koman,
The majority of the effective designers are methylated and therefore will be the same toxicity wise as if you are taking Anadrol or dbol. I think that if you are wanting to cycle effectively and safely with little or no toxicity, the cycle that you mentioned with test, EQ and Deca would be the way to go. I'm curious however, why you would go 2 weeks on and two weeks off though?? Test cyp and deca are longer lasting esters and cycling this way wouldn't mitigate HTPA shut down. If it were me, I would run 500-600mg test cyp, 400-600mg deca 15 weeks and pulse an effective designer such as Superdrol or Epistane/Havoc on your Workout days for weeks 1-8... Just my $.02 Welcome to AM, by the way.

Well i have never done two weeks on and two weeks off, but i have a couple of friends in my business who do it like that and look great, and its almost similar to the "pulsing" method i was just introduced to, in that u dont need to have so much **** in u all the time, spread it out a little and u can use it longer with good results and very little side effects, so thats why i was going to try it. 2 questions better to use superdrol or epistane/havoc, i know the latter are milder, but which gives better results? And what post cycle therapy would be good after using these products, thank u for your time

Originally Posted by sfearl1

well this is my first injectable cycle i'm on right now and have never experienced these types of gains with the oral designer cycles i have ran in the past. but, i think you hit the nail right on the head when you asked if you can get similar results with less side effects. you already know that everything that gives good results is going to have some sort of sides. with that said, i would go with a 5-6 week havoc or epistane (same thing) cycle or a longer pulse cycle if thats what you decide to do. after this test cycle, i am definitely a bigger fan of the longer steady gains rather than the quick sudden 10-15lb gain in a couple weeks so a pulse would be good imo. you could easily get 10-15 lbs out of a longer pulse and it sounds like you've been natural for a little while so you should respond quite well. run some test with a pulse and you'd have great gains with little sides.

thank u for all the information, this is a great site, very informative, i wish this would have been around when i first started on the gas, would have saved me a lot of experimenting

Originally Posted by machinehead

I don't think 11-OXO binds to the corticosteroid receptor, it simply blocks the 11HSD1R enzyme that converts cortisone to cortisol.

Yeah. I don't know what I was thinking about when I had typed that up. Fixed that one.

Originally Posted by Leggo my Ego

Hey koman,
The majority of the effective designers are methylated and therefore will be the same toxicity wise as if you are taking Anadrol or dbol. I think that if you are wanting to cycle effectively and safely with little or no toxicity, the cycle that you mentioned with test, EQ and Deca would be the way to go. I'm curious however, why you would go 2 weeks on and two weeks off though?? Test cyp and deca are longer lasting esters and cycling this way wouldn't mitigate HTPA shut down. If it were me, I would run 500-600mg test cyp, 400-600mg deca 15 weeks and pulse an effective designer such as Superdrol or Epistane/Havoc on your Workout days for weeks 1-8... Just my $.02 Welcome to AM, by the way.

Any methyl will have a significant liver toxicity as the methylation makes the steroid unable to form a ketone at 17. The amount of damage it does is correlated slightly by androgenic ratio; therefore, there's a signficant difference between the amount of damage done by dbol versus anadrol.

Originally Posted by koman

Well i have never done two weeks on and two weeks off, but i have a couple of friends in my business who do it like that and look great, and its almost similar to the "pulsing" method i was just introduced to, in that u dont need to have so much **** in u all the time, spread it out a little and u can use it longer with good results and very little side effects, so thats why i was going to try it. 2 questions better to use superdrol or epistane/havoc, i know the latter are milder, but which gives better results? And what post cycle therapy would be good after using these products, thank u for your time

I've seen some old protocols for 2ON, 4OFF, repeat, repeat. However, there were more fast acting less toxic legal options out there when this was popular. I'm not sure your choices for this strategy run any deeper than superdrol clones. And, the gains would likely be disappointing for someone who already has experience with gear IMO.

Originally Posted by celc5

I've seen some old protocols for 2ON, 4OFF, repeat, repeat. However, there were more fast acting less toxic legal options out there when this was popular. I'm not sure your choices for this strategy run any deeper than superdrol clones. And, the gains would likely be disappointing for someone who already has experience with gear IMO.

So i think my question would be if u get better gains using gear why would someone use stuff like superdrol because according to what i have been told it also can be toxic on the liver, is it because its legal. Also i want to take a testosterone creme from mexico called lowtiyel, anybody had an experience with it. Probably one of the few things i have never tried but i have heard test cremes are good

Originally Posted by koman

So i think my question would be if u get better gains using gear why would someone use stuff like superdrol because according to what i have been told it also can be toxic on the liver, is it because its legal. Also i want to take a testosterone creme from mexico called lowtiyel, anybody had an experience with it. Probably one of the few things i have never tried but i have heard test cremes are good

superdrol gives extremely good results man. i would say its definitely right there with dbol. not as 'wet' of a compound, its actually rather dry. but the strength and mass increases are definitely up there.

Originally Posted by koman

I am new to this site and was reading some of the threads, i feel like i woke up and am in a different world, i have always used steriods and had incredible, incredible gains and now i come to this site and i read about prohormones, what is that? and 17 methyl bol and m1p and the list is just endless. Are these supplements or what is all this stuff. Is it just the sponsers of this site pushing their product? I mean i have tried so many things from creatine and VO2 and HMB, etc. all this stuff that was supposedly great and i never ever got close to the results i got when i was on the juice.

So my question to all u that are knowlegeable with these products is how comparable are they to being on the juice, maybe they arent as effective but have less side effects i dont know. What would be the most effective stack to take for strength, , muscle gain and at the same time staying relatively cut, i know what i would take if i was on the juice.
thank u for your time and hpefully u can educate me ,

Dude, your post sounds like you are a Federal agent or something. You have been cycling on and off for 20 years and never heard of PH's. You are comparing creatine to roids? I do not want to welcome you by bashing but if you are not a Fed, then you spend way too much time reading the NY Times.

I hope I didn't come off sounding like a **** but you can never be too paranoid these days. If you are legit, then welcome to the forum.

Originally Posted by Redeemer

Dude, your post sounds like you are a Federal agent or something. You have been cycling on and off for 20 years and never heard of PH's. You are comparing creatine to roids? I do not want to welcome you by bashing but if you are not a Fed, then you spend way too much time reading the NY Times.

first off, i never compared creatine to juice, if u look at my first post, i said i have tried all these things like VO2 and HMB and creatine that was supposedly so good and never had any results like when i was on the juice, so i was wondering if that was the case with these designer roids. Yeah and i have been cycling on and off mostly on for 20 years and never heard of pro hormones and superdrol and all this other stuff. Im old school, anadrol, dbol, test, sustenon, primobolin, hgh and insulin, etc. So now if someone is trying to get informed on something he has never heard about he is a fed, pretty nice. The industry i am in which is pro wrestling, no one else has heard of this stuff and i would say 85 percent of the guys are on the juice.

Originally Posted by sfearl1

superdrol gives extremely good results man. i would say its definitely right there with dbol. not as 'wet' of a compound, its actually rather dry. but the strength and mass increases are definitely up there.

another term i have never heard of wet and dry, does wet mean water retention. So which would be more toxic or have more side effects dbol or superdrol, sorry so many questions i am aboloutely clueless to all this new stuff.

Koman, don't tase me bro; your first post made me uneasy. Anyways, I can't speak for dbol but I know Superdrol is tricky. The side effects reported range from none, to nasty ad life threatening. Everyone seems to report pretty good gains though. One thing you might want to search on is PCT. Post cycle therapy is similar in some cased for PS, and PH as it is for steroids. Superdrol is afterall a steroid. Anyways, in the PCT threads, people discuss what they are running as well as the ancilaries and results. It should be a good place to start.

Originally Posted by koman

another term i have never heard of wet and dry, does wet mean water retention. So which would be more toxic or have more side effects dbol or superdrol, sorry so many questions i am aboloutely clueless to all this new stuff.

correct. i've run both and dbol had me a little boated up and puffy while superdrol had me tight and hard. so yeah, wet compounds are associated with water retention and dry compounds the opposite. as far as sides, hmmmmmm.. superdrol has me irritable and cranky the whole time i'm on it. also very lethargic. i didnt experience any hairloss or gyno with it whatsoever though. dbol had me itching my nips around day 10 or 11 and it also had me feeling a little lethargic and cranky on it despite some peoples claims to it putting them in a good mood. but i only got lethargic and cranky on dbol at high doses (60-80mg). it would be hard to say which is more toxic without blood tests but i've heard superdrol is. i've only gone as high as 30mg on it.

Originally Posted by sfearl1

correct. i've run both and dbol had me a little boated up and puffy while superdrol had me tight and hard. so yeah, wet compounds are associated with water retention and dry compounds the opposite. as far as sides, hmmmmmm.. superdrol has me irritable and cranky the whole time i'm on it. also very lethargic. i didnt experience any hairloss or gyno with it whatsoever though. dbol had me itching my nips around day 10 or 11 and it also had me feeling a little lethargic and cranky on it despite some peoples claims to it putting them in a good mood. but i only got lethargic and cranky on dbol at high doses (60-80mg). it would be hard to say which is more toxic without blood tests but i've heard superdrol is. i've only gone as high as 30mg on it.

Just shows how different everyone is because i had a lot of energy while on dbol, anyways well my next question would be which one did u think worked better between the two, gave u better results.

Originally Posted by koman

Just shows how different everyone is because i had a lot of energy while on dbol, anyways well my next question would be which one did u think worked better between the two, gave u better results.

right now its superdrol but thats because i've ran it 3 times and had positive results each time. i have only used dbol once, and although i liked it, it didnt impress me like i thought it would. but i will definitely use it again and give it another chance on a bulk.

it seemed like the strength increase might come on a little quicker and greater with dbol but not by much.

Ok, I am new to this and have a few questions???
What pro hormones are legal to order?
What should I take if I want to cut fat and add size?
I have read about Havoc and 11 OXO. Would this be a good start?
They are out of stock ov Havoc...Where can I order? I searched and some of the packaging is different?
Thanks, and this has been very informatioinal. I hope to learn more!

......

Originally Posted by Brian5225

......

?????

I know I am new but am I missing something?
Did I ask poor questions?
Sorry if I did. Just looking for some information.