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  1. Recovering AXoholic
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    Quote Originally Posted by riskarb View Post
    Havoc has had some spectroscopy issues

    I was under the impression Havoc tested fine and Epi was spurious?
    Nope, actually the other way around. Havoc gave bad test results, which had people biting their nails and skeptical about epistane.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    You bastard! How could you?! just kidding. I put it together to help the noobs, the more ther merrier.

    What's DA? I'm not a member there....yet.
    Wouldn't sweat joining DA. Its just an average small forum. Most of the vets have left DA.


    BTW bro, great post ---- thanks so much for taking the time. Def. sticky material.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    Nope, actually the other way around. Havoc gave bad test results, which had people biting their nails and skeptical about epistane.
    You're just a little off here sinner...I don't think a final conclusive statement could be made about either.

    Both have been accused of having problems, whether it be purity, molecular weight or the actual compound or compounds in the pill.

    But lets not make another thread about this...hahaha
    •   
       

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    Quote Originally Posted by PumpingIron View Post
    You're just a little off here sinner...I don't think a final conclusive statement could be made about either.

    Both have been accused of having problems, whether it be purity, molecular weight or the actual compound or compounds in the pill.

    But lets not make another thread about this...hahaha
    Lord knows we don't need another one of those threads. I was aware of Havoc's issues, but I also tried to stay away from those drama threads, so I must've missed epi's problems. I editted my post (to make it a little more general).
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    Great thread man. This will save some time researching!! props!
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    Quote Originally Posted by PumpingIron View Post
    You gotta fix a few things...

    AX was not the innovator for PP, it was either ALRI or DS (I forget)...

    Prostan is not the prosteroid of winny, it is the unmethylated version of it.

    For fini, look up diplomats logs, he was obsessed with that stuff.

    You're missing a few others as well, M1T, Andro, NorAndro, 1-Test, 1AD, 4AD, Promagnon25, Oxyguno, Furaguno...

    ..I'm probably forgetting some.


    Good post though, guess someone was bored.
    I loved this!! I wanted to do this, but you beat me to it ,.. and I still must spread my love around before giving you any more

    I thought I should note , Progmag-25 is a ph to Methyl-Test. Althought it LOOKS like H-50.
    It also appears (from some of the more recent logs) that users can expect about the same results ... you know, since it ,. um IS eventually methyl test :P

    It might be helpgull to identify the progestins specificly in addition to it may or may not kill libedo)..
    those would be finni, MaxLMG, TRN, and propadrol (,--me thinks)
    anyways, GREAT post!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by xtraflossy View Post
    I loved this!! I wanted to do this, but you beat me to it ,.. and I still must spread my love around before giving you any more

    I thought I should note , Progmag-25 is a ph to Methyl-Test. Althought it LOOKS like H-50.
    It also appears (from some of the more recent logs) that users can expect about the same results ... you know, since it ,. um IS eventually methyl test :P

    It might be helpgull to identify the progestins specificly in addition to it may or may not kill libedo)..
    those would be finni, MaxLMG, TRN, and propadrol (,--me thinks)
    anyways, GREAT post!!
    Yeah promag and H-50 are different. Even Oxyguno has a very similar nomenclature, but they're all completely different compounds. I was not aware that Promag converted to methyltest Also note that this doesn't necessarily mean that all (or even a majority) of it will eventually become methyltest.

    I made sure to identify the progestins (except propadrol as I'm not 100% if the shoes fit), and added your mention of pro-mag's converting to mtest.
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    I'm on 100mg of promag now...and the results are more similar to what I've heard from H-50...lean dry gains with little sides and some recomp and vascularity.
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    promagnon has 1 ingridient difference that H-50 but im not sure what effect that ingredient change does. Hemadrol is according to the lisred ingredients, exactly the same as H-50. Again, good post. I like and appreciate everyones comments, input. keep it up guys!! Learn mor every day here.
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    sorry about the spelling, not a big multi tasker here
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfbb View Post
    I'm on 100mg of promag now...and the results are more similar to what I've heard from H-50...lean dry gains with little sides and some recomp and vascularity.

    I think you're confusing methyltest with M1T. And yeah, promag and H50 yield pretty similar results (but from people who've tried them both, they seem to prefer H50).
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    Quote Originally Posted by xtraflossy View Post
    I thought I should note , Progmag-25 is a ph to Methyl-Test.
    Don't forget the 4-chloro on Promag. It's target hormone is actaully 4-chloro-17b-hydroxy-17a-methyl-androst-4-ene-3-one (4-chloro-methyltestosterone - much drier, I believe). I guess you could call it "methylclostebol."

    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner
    I've taken this into account, and have started writing up a list of popular stacks...

    Methoxy-TRN/Pheraplex
    That was one of my favorites. Best strength gains! This was with the originals, ALRI M-TRN & DS Phera-Plex.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    I think you're confusing methyltest with M1T. And yeah, promag and H50 yield pretty similar results (but from people who've tried them both, they seem to prefer H50).
    nah- Im pretty sure it converts to methyltest (not confising w/ m1t). and dry, modest gains,.. strength are consistant with it. I'll look around, I try and find where it was BK, or someone explaining it (back when H-50 was really big)


    And I know I posted something from pubmed about 13-gonnadiene, and the process in which it was created (as an isomer) from the parent progestin.
    lol- damn,,. , might take me a few for both.
    I also could just be off my rocker
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    Quote Originally Posted by xtraflossy View Post
    nah- Im pretty sure it converts to methyltest (not confising w/ m1t). and dry, modest gains,.. strength are consistant with it. I'll look around, I try and find where it was BK, or someone explaining it (back when H-50 was really big)
    Bump to my previous post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xtraflossy View Post
    nah- Im pretty sure it converts to methyltest (not confising w/ m1t).
    I was talking about mfbb confusing the two. As I recall M1T wasn't dry. Let me know what you find with on propadrol and Promag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mass69
    That was one of my favorites. Best strength gains! This was with the originals, ALRI M-TRN & DS Phera-Plex.
    I really enjoyed this stack as well. I ran it last fall with just moderate dosages of M-TRN for a 3 weeker and had great results.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockma
    promagnon has 1 ingridient difference that H-50 but im not sure what effect that ingredient change does. Hemadrol is according to the lisred ingredients, exactly the same as H-50. Again, good post. I like and appreciate everyones comments, input. keep it up guys!! Learn mor every day here.
    promagnon has a different active. Though the compounds are similar in structure, rest assured that means nothing in terms of functionality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bearmeat View Post
    Apparently it is NOT the exact same thing. Bruce Kneller and Bill Llewellyn both have said it is not the same chemically (you can decide whether you can take their word for it). You can compare the two actives yourself.

    ProMagnon-25: 4-chloro-17a-methyl-androst-4-ene-3,17b-diol


    Halodrol-50: 4-chloro-17a-methyl-androst-1,4-diene-3,17b-diol

    Bill on BB.com: If that chemical name is correct, it is not the same thing as Halodrol. This lacks a 1-ene. It is a precursor to 4-chloromethyltestosterone (a methylated derrivative of Clostebol/Megagrisevit Mono) instead.

    Bruce on BB.com: The PPL product is the 4-halogenated precursor to 4-chloro-methyltestosterone while the GN product is the 4-halogenated precursor to Oral Turinabol.
    This is the first thing I came accross close to what I was refering about (to the p-25)


    Bodybuilding.com - Big Cat - In Depth Megagrisevit Mono Profile!
    Megagrisevit Mono

    NOTICE: This information is for entertainment purposes ONLY!

    Full profiles on each individual steroid are here.



    Pharmaceutical Name: clostebol (as acetate)
    Chemical structure: 4-chloro-androst-4-en-3-one,17b-ol
    Molecular weight of base: 322.8741
    Molecular weight of ester: 60.0524 (acetic acid, 2 carbons)




    Effective dose: 20-50 mg/day
    Average Street-price: $5-7 for a vial of megagrisevit mono (1.5 ml)
    Available Doses: 15 mg tabs or 10 mg/1.5 ml injections




    Characteristics:

    Steranabol is no longer made and cannot be found under this name anywhere. If you do find it under that name, consider it a fake. Steranabol is confusing as well, because Farmitalia still makes steranabol Depot and steranabol Ritardo, but both of those are forms of the nandrolone derivative oxabolone cypionate (see profile on Steranabol). The active ingredient, clostebol acetate is still found in the German product Megagrisevit Mono however, but since that's a little long to pronounce, its either referred to as steranabol or by its pharmaceutical name, clostebol.

    Structurally, clostebol is simply testosterone with an added chloro group at the 4-position. In itself quite ingenious. I mean you see all sorts of structural alterations to prevent a steroid from interacting with enzymes, but none as simple as this. By putting a structural alterations right on top of the 4-position, it cannot be 5-alpha reduced to dihydrotestosterone, thereby limiting a more androgenic form in androgen specific tissue like scalp, prostate and skin. And so of course, avoiding all problems associated with DHT formation like extreme cases of acne and serious hair loss. But it also prevent aromatization, so no estrogen is formed. That limits fat gain, bloat and the risk of breast growth in men (gyno). Needless to say of course that eliminating the stronger androgenic and all of the estrogenic components, this steroid is nowhere near as potent as its parent, testosterone. But you have to admit the beauty of it. Why use testosterone if you are only going to stack it with fortunes worth of arimidex and finasteride to block estrogen and DHT, if you can just take clostebol and be done with it? I mean if you are going to screw around and mess up the strongest anabolic, do us all a favour and just use this stuff. If you really can't take the side-effects and still want to use a steroid. Although I must say I loathe such people. Either you take it like man and accept the risk, go for the gains and get from it what you can, or you can't tolerate the risk, and then you should just stay away from all steroids. Period. I hate those "I want it all and don't want to pay for it" type of people.
    .....................
    Ok,.. so a little contradiction here,.. but like I said, I could be wrong :P
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    How about I say it is a methylated derivative of clostebol?
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    Sorry for the clutter,.. THIS is what I was looking for...

    Wow Gaspari. - Bodybuilding.com Forums post #27
    Uhm...no.


    Pro Magnon 25 by PPL is 25mg per cap of this -

    4-chloro-17a-methyl-androst-4-ene-3,17b-diol


    Halodrol-50 by GN is 50mg per tab of this -

    4-chloro-17a-methyl-androst-1,4-diene-3,17b-diol


    This is like comparing test to dbol. The PPL product is the 4-halogenated precursor to 4-chloro-methyltestosterone while the GN product is the 4-halogenated precursor to Oral Turinabol.

    You are comparing apples and oranges here.

    I know the owners of both PPL and GN personally. Both people are great guys and very honest but both are separate companies that have nothing to do with each other.

    Both products are quite effective in their own way but they will cause substantially different types of effects. The PPL product is more androgenic than the GN product. The GN product is has a higher A:A ratio. Neither will aromatize to estrogen due to the 4-halogen. Both probably have intrinsic active properties before conversion to the "active hormone" being 3,17b-diols (despite not having the requisite 3-ketone to bind to the AR optimally).

    Both are very good products but they are absolutely NOT the same compound and anyone telling you differently is lying to defraud you or just can't read and made an honest mistake.

    I hope this clears things up.


    BK
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    I made sure to identify the progestins (except propadrol as I'm not 100% if the shoes fit), and added your mention of pro-mag's converting to mtest.
    Well, here's the discussion I had when Propadrol came out. I posted part of the study, and I'll post the first part here, and include the link to it. (lol- I am in NO way a smart man, so again, I could have been talking out my arse yet again :P)

    Exploring:New anabolic: MAX LMG --> Propadrol

    Exploring:New anabolic: MAX LMG --> Propadrol
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I found this while looking for information on that propadrol chem that looks like LMG, but claims that it is not..

    Gona-4,9(10)-dienes and process of producing the same
    Document Type and Number: United States Patent 4167517
    Link to this Page: Gona-4,9(10)-dienes and process of producing the same - Patent 4167517

    Abstract: New gona-4,9(10)-dienes of formula I ##STR1## where R is alkyl of 1 to 3 carbon atoms and X is Cl, Br, F, N.sub.3, SCN, CN, OH, OR'(R'=alkyl), NH.sub.2, a substituted amino group or a heterocyclic compound including nitrogen in the ring.
    The compounds have valuable biological properties, especially hormonal and antihormonal effects, and can be used to advantage in pharmaceutical preparations for the treatment of endocrinopathies and for reproduction control in human beings and livestock.

    The invention also embraces a process for making the compounds by converting
    3-methyoxy-13.beta.-R-gona-2,5(10)-diene-17.beta.-spiro-1',2'-o xiranes.

    first to 17beta-hydroxy-17alpha.-CH.sub.2 X-13. beta.-R-gon-5(10)-en-3-one,

    then to the:

    17.beta.-hydroxy-17.alpha.-CH.sub.2 X-13.beta.-R-gona-4,9(10)-diene-3-ones of formula I.


    Max LMG is 13-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-2,5(10)-diene-17-one
    Propadrol is 12-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-diene
    Im not a chemist, but it looks like (either in nomenclature or design) for LMG they added an Ethyl??? - hell,.. maybe swapped the placement of the methoxy too.


    maybe someone can chime in on IF this above artical has anything to do with anything...
    I think where I am tring to go with this is:
    Propadrol is to Max LMG what Pheraplex is to Ergomax

    That propadrol could be a metabolite (altered or not) of Max LMG ~ the one responsable for the majority of the anabolic activity

    Propadrol Supplement Facts
    Serving Size: 1 Caps
    Servings per container: 40
    Amount Per Serving
    6-17 dihydroxyetiocholone-3-ol proponate
    12-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-diene 15mg
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    This is an AWESOME thread! Great info!

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    How about I say it is a methylated derivative of clostebol?
    Hey! I already named the target hormone, "methylclostebol."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mass_69 View Post
    Hey! I already named the target hormone, "methylclostebol."
    lol- I see you did. My bad- I kept one window open, while searching in another one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfearl1 View Post
    i'm thinking about running a m-trn/m-zol/superdrol soon. it would like like this

    trn-1234
    zol-3456
    superdrol-456 10/10/10

    what dosages do you guys think should be run on the trn and zol?? i've seen low low dosages and very high as well so i'm not too sure because i've never run trn or zol. pc t will be torm, hdx2, massfx, retain, and probably some fenu. i also have some activate but that might be overkill.
    I have a few suggestions here, and if anyone disagrees, please feel free to correct me.

    1st, I think you'd do best to start with the Superdrol, then transition into the TRN, and I'd personally run Zol throughout, or maybe pick it up from week 3 on. Also, Piston Pump suggested I drop TRN 1 week before ending Zol, back when I ran the two and i think it was good advice. So that cycle would look more like this:

    superdrol (10/10/10) wks. 1-3
    TRN* (4/4/4) wks. 3-5
    Zol (at say, 100/150/150/150/150/150) wks. 1-6

    *If you stay at 4mg you should be ok with the sides, but at 6mg, almost universally speaking, people experience pretty bad sides.

    Hope this helps.
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    Great Thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThisGuy02 View Post
    I have a few suggestions here, and if anyone disagrees, please feel free to correct me.

    1st, I think you'd do best to start with the Superdrol, then transition into the TRN, and I'd personally run Zol throughout, or maybe pick it up from week 3 on. Also, Piston Pump suggested I drop TRN 1 week before ending Zol, back when I ran the two and i think it was good advice. So that cycle would look more like this:

    superdrol (10/10/10) wks. 1-3
    TRN* (4/4/4) wks. 3-5
    Zol (at say, 100/150/150/150/150/150) wks. 1-6

    *If you stay at 4mg you should be ok with the sides, but at 6mg, almost universally speaking, people experience pretty bad sides.

    Hope this helps.
    What is the reason behind why you would you drop trn 1 week

    before ending the zol?? Also, do you think this would have me

    more shutdown running the s d before the trn? I obviously want

    to run a cutting cycle but I want to keep and even add some

    mass if at all possible. My diet is 110% on the spot so that is

    not a problem. I have alot of supps stocked up right now. I

    have havoc(2), trn(2), s d(21 caps), and zol(1) & I have some

    transdermal 4ad on the way. I wanted to cut up a bit, thats

    why i'm saving my havoc. i would like to use that for something

    else as a bulker (maybe 4ad or even 3ad). any other

    suggestions?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfearl1 View Post
    What is the reason behind why you would you drop trn 1 week

    before ending the zol?? Also, do you think this would have me

    more shutdown running the s d before the trn? I obviously want

    to run a cutting cycle but I want to keep and even add some

    mass if at all possible. My diet is 110% on the spot so that is

    not a problem. I have alot of supps stocked up right now. I

    have havoc(2), trn(2), s d(21 caps), and zol(1) & I have some

    transdermal 4ad on the way. I wanted to cut up a bit, thats

    why i'm saving my havoc. i would like to use that for something

    else as a bulker (maybe 4ad or even 3ad). any other

    suggestions?
    To be honest, I donít recall exactly why, but it had something to do with rebounding off the suppression caused by TRN, and not going directly into PCT (probably so it clears your system first). I searched his posts, but canít find the one. Sorry about that.

    Insofar as shutdown, Iíd be concerned with shutdown either way you run those 2 in one cycle, but if your goal is mainly to cut, it only makes sense to go with sd first, then harden and define with the trn/zol. I donít really think one way or the other makes a difference in terms of shutdown, though. And, I canít stress this enough, but for the love of God, keep the dose of the TRN at 4mg. I ran it that way last time, and using proper pct experienced no shutdown.

    By the way, are you sold on doing it with these products exactly? I just started a cutting cycle today that is somewhat similar to yours, but Iím using Hemadrol instead of sd, because, as it states at the beginning of this very thread, Hemadrol (an H-50 clone) is reputedly very mild on sides with low incidence of shutdown, etc. Just something to consider.
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    U r the sheet!! great stuff! im a new guy to prohormones and this helped me aot!! thanks man! sticky icky icky !!
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    ahhh freak! way to make me waste my last 20 min of my life reading over this peice of shiiiiii.

    LOL NO Sinner this is absolutely great brotha! Awesome that you did this for all the guys just comin in to it.... too bad i allready had all that scribed in my iron lock box of a brain lol.

    very very very ill see if i can rep
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    Great posting! Should be a sticky.

    The only thing that I personally take issue with is using SD as a cutter. During the cycle that I ran, the hypoglycemic effects (which you note) were so pronounced I can't see how I could eat few enough calories to cut. Maybe thats more specific to me as in some threads users had mentioned the appetite supression effect. But worth mentioning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by precious_roy View Post
    Great posting! Should be a sticky.

    The only thing that I personally take issue with is using superdrol as a cutter. During the cycle that I ran, the hypoglycemic effects (which you note) were so pronounced I can't see how I could eat few enough calories to cut. Maybe thats more specific to me as in some threads users had mentioned the appetite supression effect. But worth mentioning.
    you could still get the same effects of a cut only you have to recreate your diet to suit your supplements, it has very high glycogen storing abilities therefore adding extra carbs during a cut WONT be detrimental since they will be stored in the muscles as glycogen and not as fat. just cant run your traditional cut diet but still VERY good for a cut if you know how to work it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poopypants View Post
    you could still get the same effects of a cut only you have to recreate your diet to suit your supplements, it has very high glycogen storing abilities therefore adding extra carbs during a cut WONT be detrimental since they will be stored in the muscles as glycogen and not as fat. just cant run your traditional cut diet but still VERY good for a cut if you know how to work it.
    Correct. Superdrol's diuretic and nutrient partitioning effects are superb, and works great for that dryness and fullness you want at the end of a cut. In my current cutting log, I am planning to start a superdrol cycle 2 weeks before game day to take advantage of these effects.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poopypants View Post
    you could still get the same effects of a cut only you have to recreate your diet to suit your supplements, it has very high glycogen storing abilities therefore adding extra carbs during a cut WONT be detrimental since they will be stored in the muscles as glycogen and not as fat. just cant run your traditional cut diet but still VERY good for a cut if you know how to work it.
    i have been on a "cut" for about a month now. my diet is perfect right now. obviously i'm going to eat a buttload more on cycle. so your saying just up my carb intake accordingly for the duration of my cycle?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfearl1 View Post
    i have been on a "cut" for about a month now. my diet is perfect right now. obviously i'm going to eat a buttload more on cycle. so your saying just up my carb intake accordingly for the duration of my cycle?
    i would do it slow, like 50-100 grams a day when needed (if you start feeling hypoglycemic) otherwise once you start "feelin" it, usualy a week and a half in, try 50g increases every couple days to make sure you dont put on excess weight but it wont be likely and you will see MUCH more in the strength department by doing so from the added glycogen retention. if you think your puttin on some chub cut back 50g and see if that solves it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poopypants View Post
    i would do it slow, like 50-100 grams a day when needed (if you start feeling hypoglycemic) otherwise once you start "feelin" it, usualy a week and a half in, try 50g increases every couple days to make sure you dont put on excess weight but it wont be likely and you will see MUCH more in the strength department by doing so from the added glycogen retention. if you think your puttin on some chub cut back 50g and see if that solves it.
    i haven't mentioned this on here but i actually have been getting hypoglycemic every once in awhile since i quit taking ap? i guess i might start a new thread and ask if anyone else has experienced that. kinda weird. i'm sure my diet has alot to do with it as well though.
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    Pheraplex is a progestin??? I was unaware of that. Not doubting you but I don't recall ever reading that anywhere. Certainly doesn't feel or act like a progestin.

    Great thread by the way!! Reps for ya
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    great thread! I was looking for one of these a while ago but to no avail. This will be a great beginner read, esp if we keep updating with our experience and the newest stuff out!

    reps to you thesinner!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leggo my Ego View Post
    Pheraplex is a progestin??? I was unaware of that. Not doubting you but I don't recall ever reading that anywhere. Certainly doesn't feel or act like a progestin.

    Great thread by the way!! Reps for ya
    I'm fairly certain it's not a progestin, although it might have a very low affinity to bind to the progesterone receptors. From what I understand ALL orals have at least a slight affinitity of this nature, but that doesn't make them progestins. The 2-ene products are DMT/Madol (aka desoxymethyltestosterone). Max LMG was a progestin though.
    RcB Since 09-06-2011 20:55 EST, Post 49
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    wait what...DS didn't originate Pheraplex...wasn't that AX?

    cause I know Designer Supplements never had a Phera supplement
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    Ergomax was the original and I believe was actually an ALRI product. Can't remember if ALRI actually sold it under their label or if they just licensed it out to DS (and llater to AX).

    PP was the "updated cleaner version". FWIR, this was due in part to the isomers used and if you go back you will see people ask about 2-ene and 3-ene ratios when asking about clones.
    RcB Since 09-06-2011 20:55 EST, Post 49
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    Quote Originally Posted by stxnas View Post
    Ergomax was the original and I believe was actually an ALRI product. Can't remember if ALRI actually sold it under their label or if they just licensed it out to DS (and llater to AX).

    PP was the "updated cleaner version". FWIR, this was due in part to the isomers used and if you go back you will see people ask about 2-ene and 3-ene ratios when asking about clones.
    It was ALRI. After they discontinued sales, they repackaged what they had for export under the label "Dominator." The write-up on the "dominator" bottle makes it sound like the product is a sexual aid.
  

  
 

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