Epistane testing results

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    RPN, and my representatives, have said VERY little during this whole situation - for good reason. RPN did no such thing as prove anything about anything...we were simply making a product that is what it claims to be on the label and selling it. Look at who was attacked first, and by whom, and how the eventual testing results ended up..then you make your decision based on that.

    Once again, I will let my attorneys discuss the matters of tort violations, unfair business practices, and libelous remarks. Those parties that contacted distributors with false and misleading information in attempts to discredit my company will have plenty of opportunity and a nice, oath-sworn chance to explain themselves.

    And now, I will go back to shutting up and letting fools speak when they should have never spoken in the first place.

    oh i know, RPN has been the quietest in this whole debacle, and maybe "representatives" was the wrong word, i meant it as in "people who seems to be speaking on behalf of" or "people who seem to have an inside link to the company"

    yes, RPN has been the most professional about this, and IBE did "strike first" but judging by the messageboard talk, Epistane is being trashed by people way more than Havoc is.

    and now ill admit, it is justified due to these tests and this mysterious compound, but these results were just posted, and the bad mouthing has been going on for 2-3 weeks now, usually when you talk bad about a product (speaking of people on messageboards) you have evidence or some kind of lincling first, and then you make your claims, not the other way around, which is how this happened.

    and i have no "side" in this, im just saying in terms of people who have came out attacking IBE and their product, vs the people attacking RPN and Havoc, IBE has alot more people that seem to hate them in this, and the people speaking on behalf of IBE to these people who are bad mouthing them, seems to be reasonable, intelligent, and non-flammatory in their responses, as opposed to the ones accusing them of said things.

    again, it is no fault of either company, im just talking about the events on the internet that have transpired in the last few weeks, whether or not actual reps from companies were involved, there was alot of hate for companies, and that spilled over to hate for individuals representing said companies, when it really shouldnt have.


  2. Oh please poor Dr.D. The way people apologize for him because of his vocal profession of his christianity is just amazing. The fact of the matter is that:

    (1) epistane does not meet label claims as to the amount of the claimed active ingredient. claim 10mg actual amount of active is 3.2mg. Way underdosed

    (2) Epistane is not what it claims to be.

    How can you defend a company that lies to you and then hides behind its religion. IBE and Dr.D have committed a serious criminal offense if they knowingly did this. It is one thing to take a risk ingesting a substance if you know what you are ingesting. It is a crime to tell the consumer you are getting one thing and giving you another.

    I do not care if it works or not, you do not know what this substance is, there is no way to justify this disgusting behavior. What is wrong with you people. It is almost like you are eager to be scammed and have your health placed at risk.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Minus83 View Post
    from a business stand point, neither company should have said anything in the first place and just held out their hands for consumers money.
    it doesnt bother you that these products might not contain what they say they do? and in the incorrect doses?

    i wholeheartedly disagree. it would be a very dangerous situation if consumers did not care what these companies are selling their customers.

    yes, the products deliver similiar results, yes that is good.

    at least one of these products doesnt contain what it says it does. it is a trust issue. do you really trust a company that lies about it product label with preparing a safe and effective substance for you?

    i do not. quality is extremely important, as is trust in this market. repuation is everything.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by jomi822 View Post
    it doesnt bother you that these products might not contain what they say they do? and in the incorrect doses?

    i wholeheartedly disagree. it would be a very dangerous situation if consumers did not care what these companies are selling their customers.

    yes, the products deliver similiar results, yes that is good.

    at least one of these products doesnt contain what it says it does. it is a trust issue. do you really trust a company that lies about it product label with preparing a safe and effective substance for you?

    i do not. quality is extremely important, as is trust in this market. repuation is everything.
    I agree, as a consumer I have no personal stake in either company so it makes no difference to me. Personally I just want the truth about the products I'm using or may use in future. So far it seems like the truth hasn't come out but we're getting close. I've been following these threads since the beginning and while I've supported IBE with my purchases in the past, all I've seen thus far is unprofessional behavior and evasion when confronted with anything. Obviously both products "work" based on everything I've seen from logs, but thats not the issue here. I also do agree that some people went overboard with attacking IBE elsewhere, but again that is not the issue.

    and now that the test results are out in the open, Dr. D bails? Guess who the burden of proof is on now?

  5. Quote Originally Posted by cavefish View Post
    and now that the test results are out in the open, Dr. D bails? Guess who the burden of proof is on now?
    He bailed because people were attacking him PERSONALLY! maybe if you actually read the thread you would see that they were attacking his religion! THAT ISN'T COOL ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!

    if you guys are gonna "debate" (not that i would even come close to saying it is one) then do it correctly and without PERSONAL ATTACKS!

    RPN (dsade) has behaved reputably thus far and Dr. D has behaved reputably thus far! looks to me like "others" have not.................

  6. Quote Originally Posted by macedaddy View Post
    He bailed because people were attacking him PERSONALLY! maybe if you actually read the thread you would see that they were attacking his religion! THAT ISN'T COOL ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!

    if you guys are gonna "debate" (not that i would even come close to saying it is one) then do it correctly and without PERSONAL ATTACKS!

    RPN (dsade) has behaved reputably thus far and Dr. D has behaved reputably thus far! looks to me like "others" have not.................


    guys the whole point of this thread was to talk about the companies in general. The minute everyone starts making personal attacks and statements about religion it crosses the line. There is no place for it on the board!
    I applaud RPN for the mature way they have delt with this entire soap opera, and Dr. D for keeping his wits about himself while being personally attacked. I too like to get out the truth, but i think a public forum is not the place for it.
    best of luck to both sides,
    john

  7. I would like to know if these Compounds are different, as while havoC did give me results, i got no gyno reduCtion. If the IBE is diff then the rpn i would be intrested in trying their produCt. I'm not sidin with either Company as both prooduCts are yeilding results, but if they are really two diff Compounds i would like to give epi a try. Has anyone used both as i said i tried havoC and it yeilded appreCiable results, unfortunatley gyno reduCtion was not one of them

  8. Quote Originally Posted by macedaddy View Post
    He bailed because people were attacking him PERSONALLY! maybe if you actually read the thread you would see that they were attacking his religion! THAT ISN'T COOL ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!
    So what? If IBE doesn't clear up this mess, they are done. You figure they'd be able to overlook the loud mouthed Australopithecus among us in order to stay in business.

    That somebody hurt Dr. D's feelings is not my concern. That IBE defrauded me is. I don't care how sacrilegious the conduct of a few board members is, IBE is obligated to tell us what we've actually been putting in our bodies.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by john123131 View Post


    guys the whole point of this thread was to talk about the companies in general. The minute everyone starts making personal attacks and statements about religion it crosses the line. There is no place for it on the board!
    I applaud RPN for the mature way they have delt with this entire soap opera, and Dr. D for keeping his wits about himself while being personally attacked. I too like to get out the truth, but i think a public forum is not the place for it.
    best of luck to both sides,
    john


    i would rep you if i could! but i have spent too many reps in the last 24 hours! SORRY!


  10. Quote Originally Posted by Nabeshin View Post
    So what? If IBE doesn't clear up this mess, they are done. You figure they'd be able to overlook the loud mouthed Australopithecus among us in order to stay in business.

    That somebody hurt Dr. D's feelings is not my concern. That IBE defrauded me is. I don't care how sacrilegious the conduct of a few board members is, IBE is obligated to tell us what we've actually been putting in our bodies.

    EXACTLY!!!
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  11. I'm still confused. Lets just say that there are two suppliers in china producing this stuff. One of them gets it right, one gets it wrong. Well without a reference standard, how are we to know which it is? We can't test it, since we don't even know what the properties of a the real compound are.

    There is no way that the MW is actually 288 without degradation, since that is the same as testosterone and this is a methylated compound. Maybe the base weighs that, but I can't see how the complete compound would.

    From what I have read people seem to get gyno reduction far more with Epistane than with Havoc.

    As far as I am concerned this test means nothing really. As stated before we can't obtain a sample that we KNOW is 100% pure, so how can we guess which is right? As far as well all know neither is the real compound. The results are there though, like it or not this stuff is doing something. Blood tests have revealed no one is in real danger from using these either. Maybe we should be happy about that. Everyone *****s that we should know whats in it, you don't know whats in most of the stuff you consume on a daily basis. You can read the label, but you never know is some how there was some cross contamination. Bet that salmonella wasn't on the label for your peanut butter last month. Same goes with the "real" stuff. You have to go on word of mouth and blind faith. You don't like not knowing exactly what is in everything you consume, you better move to the woods and hunt for all your food from here on out. That or believe what 100's of people have posted about a compound working, maybe they're all shills though? Paranoid much?

    Finally, how can anyone really trust PA in this matter? Hes a cool guy and all, but seriously, doesn't anyone remember why he was banned from this VERY board? He's had a bone to pick with IBE for years, hes feeding off the paranoia that has ensued.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by aspire210 View Post
    I'm still confused. Lets just say that there are two suppliers in china producing this stuff. One of them gets it right, one gets it wrong. Well without a reference standard, how are we to know which it is?
    The same way you can calculate the expected MW of dihydrogen monoxide without having any on hand.

    I'm amazed at all the IBE apologia. Forget everything except for the numbers --- the numbers are all that matter. Epistane should have a measured MW of 288, and it doesn't. IBE needs to explain why.

    All other points are moot until that is resolved.

  13. aspire, I Couldn't agree more with what you just said

    It Could even be a positive thing if these are two diff produCts

    maybe we have two exCellent Compounds floatin around,

    I like to beleive the best in people and neither of these Companies have rubbed me the wrong way, atleast from a personal standpoint

  14. Exactly why should epistane measured at a MW of 288? Maybe I'm lost but since we can't obtain a pure, real sample how do we know this? I also don't get how a methylated steroid could weigh that little.

  15. I don't believe all the, "who cares what's in it - it works" talk!

    Might I remind the jury that the question is not whether it *works* or not, but rather what is in the capsules is what is stated on the label. I don't like liars, cheats, or thieves... aka dishonest people. So, if I buy a product, I EXPECT it to contain what it says in black and white on the side of the bottle.

    Edit: It's bad enough if it was just an oversight or lack of QC, but MUCH worse if they were intentionally misleading.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by ShakesAllDay View Post
    I don't believe all the, "who cares what's in it - it works" talk!

    Might I remind the jury that the question is not whether it *works* or not, but rather what is in the capsules is what is stated on the label. I don't like liars, cheats, or thieves... aka dishonest people. So, if I buy a product, I EXPECT it to contain what it says in black and white on the side of the bottle.
    Well how do we know who is to blame? If we can't get a pure sample then how can we even test the raws? I doubt anyone intentionally mislead here, its more likely a plant in china said they could make the stuff but didn't do a great job.

    Also, I would bet that if you tested every product, supplement or otherwise, that it wouldn't contain exactly what was listed on the label. Do you go to your grocery store and complain about this? Or do you go "hmm that was some good chicken" and go on with your life? I mean, do you even know whats in the meats you eat? If you think us juicers are endocrine experiments, then you should take a good long look at the hormone therapy used on live stock. Do you enjoy all that estrogen that's in that chicken breast?

  17. Personally i would like to see the effeCts(blood Chem) on the human body of one produCt vs the other, i dont Care what it was intended to be or even if the real Compound in the bottle is "extraCt of a dirty hooker". If the Compound is safe and works that is all i Care about and that is how i would like to make my ChoiCe

    I like to leave matters of semantiCs to lawyers and politiCans

  18. Quote Originally Posted by aspire210 View Post
    Exactly why should epistane measured at a MW of 288? Maybe I'm lost but since we can't obtain a pure, real sample how do we know this? I also don't get how a methylated steroid could weigh that little.
    To quote PA (who, regardless of how you like him, knows his chem):

    yes the results for havoc show that the stuff contains a compuond that has a MW of 288. 288 is the correct MW for the methylepistanol (it desulfurizes in the injection port to give 288)

    This was posted earlier in this thread. And in case anybody here doesn't know, you can calculate what the raw MW should be just by the chemical structure alone.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by evan View Post
    aspire, I Couldn't agree more with what you just said

    It Could even be a positive thing if these are two diff produCts

    maybe we have two exCellent Compounds floatin around,

    I like to beleive the best in people and neither of these Companies have rubbed me the wrong way, atleast from a personal standpoint
    How is it a positive thing when a company is defrauding people, and lying about what they are putting in their product. Customers purchased this product believing that it was one substance and recieved another (God knows what) type of substance. It does not matter if it is effective or not, this is a matter of ethics.

    So what if somebody attacked PhatDaddy (I will never refer to him as a doctor because he is not) or his religion. He lied and deceived people for his own benefit and hides behind religion. That is not a way a christian is supposed to behave, I question the christianinty of any man who devotes his life to selling gray markjet steroids and research chemicals as well, I seriously doubt jesus would approve of this. He does not even have the guts to confront people on his own IBE forum. This is not a personal attack this is the truth. Prepare for lawsuits IBE.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Nabeshin View Post
    To quote PA (who, regardless of how you like him, knows his chem):

    yes the results for havoc show that the stuff contains a compuond that has a MW of 288. 288 is the correct MW for the methylepistanol (it desulfurizes in the injection port to give 288)

    This was posted earlier in this thread. And in case anybody here doesn't know, you can calculate what the raw MW should be just by the chemical structure alone.
    As I stated earlier, PA is a bad person to trust in this case. He was banned for accusing IBE of selling bad products and was proven wrong. He has had a problem with IBE for years. In the original thread on BB.com, he popped in and stirred up trouble as well.

    Please go ahead and lay out the math for the MW calculation for epistane then take into account the desulforization that will occur and produce a new MW. Unless you can do this yourself you are full of it. At least I'm not claiming to be able to do something I'm not. I know how to calculate SIMPLE MW's as well, but i couldn't do it with a steroid like this.

    Also, how are we so sure that nothing else occurs, I mean, that is a pretty big difference. Epistane having been desulforized could induce other chemical changes as well. Did he learn this will testing Havoc or is it just a theory? Neither is legitimate since we don't know exactly what is in Havoc either and theory's are just that, theorys.

    For the record, I don't really like IBE personally, but just because I don't like them, doesn't make them guilty.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by whitedevil74 View Post
    How is it a positive thing when a company is defrauding people, and lying about what they are putting in their product. Customers purchased this product believing that it was one substance and recieved another (God knows what) type of substance. It does not matter if it is effective or not, this is a matter of ethics.

    So what if somebody attacked PhatDaddy (I will never refer to him as a doctor because he is not) or his religion. He lied and deceived people for his own benefit and hides behind religion. That is not a way a christian is supposed to behave, I question the christianinty of any man who devotes his life to selling gray markjet steroids and research chemicals as well, I seriously doubt jesus would approve of this. He does not even have the guts to confront people on his own IBE forum. This is not a personal attack this is the truth. Prepare for lawsuits IBE.
    What happened to lack of personal attacks? Religion has no place in a discussion of steroid structure.

    Yes, you are right, Jesus hates steroids. We are all going to burn in hell for tasting the sweet nectar of testosterone.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by aspire210 View Post
    Please go ahead and lay out the math for the MW calculation for epistane then take into account the desulforization that will occur and produce a new MW. Unless you can do this yourself you are full of it. At least I'm not claiming to be able to do something I'm not.
    It is of absolutely zero consequence that you don't trust PA, as far as I'm concerned. In fact, it matters almost as little as your opinion of me. He's come up with a figure that a lot of respectable folk have accepted, and IBE has got nothing in return.

    The burden of proof has been met. The burden of rejoinder is now on IBE's shoulders.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by evan View Post
    Personally i would like to see the effeCts(blood Chem) on the human body of one produCt vs the other, i dont Care what it was intended to be or even if the real Compound in the bottle is "extraCt of a dirty hooker". If the Compound is safe and works that is all i Care about and that is how i would like to make my ChoiCe

    I like to leave matters of semantiCs to lawyers and politiCans
    What is wrong with you?

  24. Quote Originally Posted by 1Fast400 View Post
    PA tested your product and came out with a MW of 270. He tested the other two products, which are to contain the exact same ingredient and came up with 288. I test your product and come up with 270. Now, if PA tested the three products all the same way and came up with 2 different results (288 being the explainable number), why is yours coming up 270 (which has no logical explanation)?
    No, 270 has a logical explanation. The epithio group could easily leave and that would take the overall MW to around 270 depending on whether or not it took one or two protons with it.

    I'll ask my professor tomorrow if it is likely to do so.

    I actually don't know how 288 is explainable, to tell you the truth. That would be the number he would get if he removed an S-H from the total MW, and not the -OH. -OH almost always falls off during GC/MS as H2O (-18), which yields 270 M+ (molecular ion).

    I don't know why PA would say otherwise, honestly.

    Well, I'll take it to my professor tomorrow (Ph.D Ochem) or Friday. But, I know FOR A FACT that alcohol would come off as water (-16 for the O and -2 for the two protons).

  25. Quote Originally Posted by macedaddy View Post
    He bailed because people were attacking him PERSONALLY! maybe if you actually read the thread you would see that they were attacking his religion! THAT ISN'T COOL ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!

    if you guys are gonna "debate" (not that i would even come close to saying it is one) then do it correctly and without PERSONAL ATTACKS!

    RPN (dsade) has behaved reputably thus far and Dr. D has behaved reputably thus far! looks to me like "others" have not.................
    Right, for whats its worth I don't agree with personal attacks and his religious preferances are none of my business or anyone elses. They should also play no role in how he does business. However Dr. D chose to give that clown a voice by responding to his post then running rather than choosing to ignore it and promoting an open dialog about the test results. I was very much interested in what he had to say about this now I don't know if he'll come back or not.

    As an excuse for exiting this thread, it stinks.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by Nabeshin View Post
    The same way you can calculate the expected MW of dihydrogen monoxide without having any on hand.

    I'm amazed at all the IBE apologia. Forget everything except for the numbers --- the numbers are all that matter. Epistane should have a measured MW of 288, and it doesn't. IBE needs to explain why.

    All other points are moot until that is resolved.
    You're rusty on your ochem, my friend

    MW of epistane is 321.

    At the 17th Carbon, oriented axially, there is an alcohol functional group -OH. During mass spectroscopy the -OH pretty much always leaves and takes a proton with it. That's -18 AMU from the total MW of 321. That would be the first thing to go, period.

    That leaves 303 AMU remaining.

    Sulfur, located directly underneath Oxygen on the periodic table (and therefore possessing very similar chemical and physical properties) is also likely to leave (as evidenced by PA's numbers himself, 288 being 321 - 33.) Epistane has an epithio group at 2a,3a. This means that carbons 2 and 3 are bonded to a single sulfur equitorially.

    Sulfur has an MW of about 32 and it would strip a proton as well, making the total MW removed 33 AMU.

    303 - 33 = 270 AMU for the M+.

    To recap,
    Epistane contains two functional groups that would likely leave under GC/MS conditions. On is an epithio group and the other is an alcohol. When the alcohol leaves, it takes a proton with it making the total MW loss from the parent molecule 18 AMU. The epithio group would strip a proton with it as well, that takes another 33 away.

    So, methyl-epithiostanol = 321. - SH, -H2O = 270.

    An M+ of 288 makes little sense. He would have had to leave the -OH functional group on to get that weight, and -OH leaving and stripping a proton (coming off as H2O) is pretty much a given- I guess its "possible" for it to stay on, just very improbably from what I know.
    Last edited by kwyckemynd00; 04-11-2007 at 10:30 PM.

  27. I have a feeling that whether this discussion remains open or gets locked right now - that we're all going to be in the same place no matter how many pages this discussion goes on.

    Save time and make your decision right now.

    Either continue to buy from IBE. Or don't.

    But don't waste any more time on this discussion. It will not go anywhere.

    Mark my words.. Remember page 3 and refer back to here next year when on the anniversary of the "lab results" thread comes upon us - still going on...

  28. Quote Originally Posted by Nabeshin View Post
    It is of absolutely zero consequence that you don't trust PA, as far as I'm concerned. In fact, it matters almost as little as your opinion of me. He's come up with a figure that a lot of respectable folk have accepted, and IBE has got nothing in return.

    The burden of proof has been met. The burden of rejoinder is now on IBE's shoulders.
    IBE has offered a rebuttal, you refused to accept it. Go back to BB.com and worship PA, since you seem to follow him with blind faith. Remember, hes not allowed over here because he is a drama queen sometimes. Very intelligent as well, but a drama queen none the less.

    I just think its ironic that you can follow one man with blind faith, but will chastise others for doing the same. That and you pretend to know something about the chemistry of all this, but drop a nice cop-out when you are called on it. Good luck on your quest to rid the world of all that which is IBE. I'm going back to my real life for a while, maybe even go workout, but who does that on a bodybuilding forum anyway?

  29. Ones morals are there own, and need not be shared with any other individual, for that is their inherent nature.



    If i buy a product and i yeild positive and safe results, that is what matters to ME.

    All i want to know is if whatever is in epi(ibe) is workin better then whatever is in HavoC for the purpose of gyno reduCtion, even from if only an anneCdotal standpoint

    I will ask my question elsewhere as i am not one to engage in arguments, and this thread is going in a direCtion that is no longer of my intrest

    I will leave on a positive note sayin i hope this is resolved pleasantly and this whole situation was a big mistake as i do respeCt both Companies as well as every member on this board

    btw,
    aspire where did you find that avatar?

  30. Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00 View Post
    You're rusty on your ochem, my friend

    MW of epistane is 321.

    At the 17th Carbon, oriented axially, there is an alcohol functional group -OH. During mass spectroscopy the -OH pretty much always leaves and takes a proton with it. That's -18 AMU from the total MW of 321. That would be the first thing to go, period.

    That leaves 303 AMU remaining.

    Sulfur, located directly underneath Oxygen on the periodic table (and therefore possessing very similar chemical and physical properties) is also likely to leave (as evidenced by PA's numbers himself, 288 being 321 - 33.) Epistane has an epithio group at 2a,3a. This means that carbons 2 and 3 are bonded to a single sulfur equitorially.

    Sulfur has an MW of about 32 and it would strip a proton as well, making the total MW removed 33 AMU.

    303 - 33 = 270 AMU.

    To recap,
    Epistane contains two functional groups that would likely leave under GC/MS conditions. On is an epithio group and the other is an alcohol. When the alcohol leaves, it takes a proton with it making the total MW loss from the parent molecule 18 AMU. The epithio group would strip a proton with it as well, that takes another 33 away.

    So, methyl-epithiostanol = 321. - SH, -H2O = 270.

    Dr.D is right on this one. I'm actually a bit appauled that PA would lie about it. An M+ of 288 makes absolutely no sense. He would have had to leave the -OH functional group on to get that weight, and -OH leaving and stripping a proton (coming off as H2O) is pretty much a given.
    thank you

    now take a bow.
  

  
 

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