Attack the information, not the person. This will not keep getting repeated. I'm here looking for information just like the rest of you and I also want clear cut answers but attacking someone's religion or anything else for that matter besides their statements gets us nowhere.
Bobo has equipped all mods with the ban stick. Keep this discussion civil ladies and gentlemen.
So, results are posted. And, now, with 44 members viewing the thread, both the OP (1Fast) and the defendant (Dr. D) skip town.
anyway, regarding all of this stuff, why would IBE say things about Havoc being impure, when their stuff was?
it doesnt make sense, there is no way they would be dumb enough to think noone would test it.
the arguing back and forth over the last couple weeks has resulted in alot of "prove it is!" and "no, you prove it isnt!" which doesnt get anybody anywhere.
and these tests dont really prove anything do they?
i mean, if the product is somehow less potent or less effective than the company says, and people are still making great gains from it, and even getting some other benefits (gyno reduction) there must be some good things about it.
i dont know, the controversy kind of makes me want to buy Epistane (my cart at a site has 2 bottles of Havoc in it im waiting to order, but that may change) i dont know which is "better" "more pure" or "contains magical unicorns" but the logs dont lie (logs...on here, not toilet logs) and people are enjoying using both Havoc and Epistane, so something must be good about both.
I haven't gone anywhere. I love my PDA . I'm listening to a boring meeting anyway . So Dr D just left instead of explaining how a MW of 270 makes that active epistane. All because someone made a god reference.
Wow, I just realized how retarded I am.
Seeing posts like this make me want to bash my head against a wall.and these tests dont really prove anything do they?
Yes, obviously both havoc and epistane work.
that being said, i want to know what substance i am ingesting, and i trust the label on a product to tell me what that is.
This is my understanding of the situation.
1. no one has a standard to go by (major problem)
2. 1fast claims the substances orginal MW is over 288 and becomes 288 due to the testing process
3. Dr D claims that the substance degrades to 270 in this testing process (if i recall correctly, feel free to correct me dr. d.)
is it possible the same substance can degrade to both 288 and 270 respectively? or that different testing pocesses can degrade the product to either one of these values?
D. if you are reading this, humor us and explain the situation one more time.
the fact of the matter is that we now have a test saying epistane has under half the dose it says it does per capsule.
if this is incorrect, wouldnt it be beneficial for IBE to post results of its own?
Everyone I have spoken to, that I trust with a chemisty background can't justify this compound having a MW of 270. There is a VERY logical explanation for how it ends up at 288, which both havoc and SFR's product did. That is why I asked very clearly to D:is it possible the same substance can degrade to both 288 and 270 respectively? or that different testing pocesses can degrade the product to either one of these values?
How can your product have a MW of 270 and be the correct active?
Just looking at the amount of members reading this thread. I don't think it would be wise for parties of either side of this issue to just get up and leave.
If anyone from either side decided to do that, it would be more of an admission of guilt by the entire company. Atleast that is how a normal consumer would comprehend it. And as your average consumer...I have to say
THANK YOU MIKE!!!
kinda makes you wonder...however it does do what it says it does, so I wonder what it could be....
Anyone know of a substance with a 270 mw that could cause these effects?
and many may see Dr. D leaving from religious attacks as a "cop out" but alot of people take their religion very seriously (not me, but i know alot of people who do), and if you see this one instance and him saying hes leaving, yeah, it looks like a copout, but with recent events and people bashing him, id say it was more of a straw that broke the camels back type of deal for him.
furthermore (saying that makes me seem smart) i dont see how RPN (or representatives there of) proving that Epistane has half the claimed ammount of actives in it is good for Havoc, from the logs i have been reading, both seem to be on par with results, so basically you are proving that an "impure" product with half the actives in comparison to Havoc, is just as good?
from a business stand point, neither company should have said anything in the first place and just held out their hands for consumers money.
i get youre trying to help (hopefully) but these threads over the past few days havent had civil arguments in them, it has been more bashing of a member, and constant prodding for answers.
again, i would really hate to see Dr. D's PM box.
give him some time, he will most likely come back and speak about this some more, hopefully before the thread reaches 30 pages and gets locked.
RPN hasn't made any claims about epistane from what I have seen. I apologize if I am wrong
Once again, I will let my attorneys discuss the matters of tort violations, unfair business practices, and libelous remarks. Those parties that contacted distributors with false and misleading information in attempts to discredit my company will have plenty of opportunity and a nice, oath-sworn chance to explain themselves.
And now, I will go back to shutting up and letting fools speak when they should have never spoken in the first place.
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nobody seems to be wondering WHY DO PEOPLE STILL GET GAINS AND HAVE GREAT SUCCESS WITH GYNO REDUCTION!? if its not what it claims to be then what the hell else out there can reduce gyno and deliver great strength gains?
OK, I see quite a few problems with this test.
1.) Why even bother to test it when you have no standard. You say the standard is 288? Have you shown us some documentation showing that the peak ion for this compound is 288?
2.) D's previous explanation of the fragmentation in the GC/MS is legit taking into account that the actual weight of the compound is much higher that 270 peak.
3.) This could all be solved if a company was hired to synthesize epi in house then develop a standard for the RT as well Mass Spec.
4.) All this bickering is pointless. your comparing one test to someone else's word about what it should be. Id personally like to see the GC/MS data for havoc rather than take someones word for it.
Can we see the tests on havoc and SFR's product??