Epistane testing results

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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahright View Post
    As an observation: The user reports of reduced or eliminated gyno after using Epistane really cannot be ignored. There are so many of them spread across different boards from experienced users who have credibility in their various online communities. I don't understand the science of these test results enough to contribute anything meaningful about what they say about Epistane....but SOMETHING unusually positive comes from this product. Precisely as predicted by the structure of the compound.

    I'll leave it for others mor eknowledgeable to debate the test results.
    I agree. I myself wonder what these tests mean, but I can't help but acknowledge what Epistane has done for me in terms of gyno reduction.

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    Attack the information, not the person. This will not keep getting repeated. I'm here looking for information just like the rest of you and I also want clear cut answers but attacking someone's religion or anything else for that matter besides their statements gets us nowhere.
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    Bobo has equipped all mods with the ban stick. Keep this discussion civil ladies and gentlemen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    Attack the information, not the person. This will not keep getting repeated. I'm here looking for information just like the rest of you and I also want clear cut answers but attacking someone's religion or anything else for that matter besides their statements gets us nowhere.
    I was attacked at another board. Jacob you suck, I hate you, but your products work so I was like okay.
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    So, results are posted. And, now, with 44 members viewing the thread, both the OP (1Fast) and the defendant (Dr. D) skip town.

    Great.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShakesAllDay View Post
    So, results are posted. And, now, with 44 members viewing the thread, both the OP (1Fast) and the defendant (Dr. D) skip town.

    Great.
    D had a reason though, this isnt the first thread he has been personally attacked in, even only counting the last week hes had a rough time, and i would really hate to see what his PM box looks like.

    anyway, regarding all of this stuff, why would IBE say things about Havoc being impure, when their stuff was?

    it doesnt make sense, there is no way they would be dumb enough to think noone would test it.

    the arguing back and forth over the last couple weeks has resulted in alot of "prove it is!" and "no, you prove it isnt!" which doesnt get anybody anywhere.

    and these tests dont really prove anything do they?

    i mean, if the product is somehow less potent or less effective than the company says, and people are still making great gains from it, and even getting some other benefits (gyno reduction) there must be some good things about it.

    i dont know, the controversy kind of makes me want to buy Epistane (my cart at a site has 2 bottles of Havoc in it im waiting to order, but that may change) i dont know which is "better" "more pure" or "contains magical unicorns" but the logs dont lie (logs...on here, not toilet logs) and people are enjoying using both Havoc and Epistane, so something must be good about both.
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    I haven't gone anywhere. I love my PDA . I'm listening to a boring meeting anyway . So Dr D just left instead of explaining how a MW of 270 makes that active epistane. All because someone made a god reference.
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    Wow, I just realized how retarded I am.
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    and these tests dont really prove anything do they?
    Seeing posts like this make me want to bash my head against a wall.
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    Yes, obviously both havoc and epistane work.

    that being said, i want to know what substance i am ingesting, and i trust the label on a product to tell me what that is.


    This is my understanding of the situation.

    1. no one has a standard to go by (major problem)
    2. 1fast claims the substances orginal MW is over 288 and becomes 288 due to the testing process
    3. Dr D claims that the substance degrades to 270 in this testing process (if i recall correctly, feel free to correct me dr. d.)

    is it possible the same substance can degrade to both 288 and 270 respectively? or that different testing pocesses can degrade the product to either one of these values?

    D. if you are reading this, humor us and explain the situation one more time.

    the fact of the matter is that we now have a test saying epistane has under half the dose it says it does per capsule.

    if this is incorrect, wouldnt it be beneficial for IBE to post results of its own?
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    is it possible the same substance can degrade to both 288 and 270 respectively? or that different testing pocesses can degrade the product to either one of these values?
    Everyone I have spoken to, that I trust with a chemisty background can't justify this compound having a MW of 270. There is a VERY logical explanation for how it ends up at 288, which both havoc and SFR's product did. That is why I asked very clearly to D:

    How can your product have a MW of 270 and be the correct active?
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    Just looking at the amount of members reading this thread. I don't think it would be wise for parties of either side of this issue to just get up and leave.

    If anyone from either side decided to do that, it would be more of an admission of guilt by the entire company. Atleast that is how a normal consumer would comprehend it. And as your average consumer...I have to say

    THANK YOU MIKE!!!
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    kinda makes you wonder...however it does do what it says it does, so I wonder what it could be....
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    Anyone know of a substance with a 270 mw that could cause these effects?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Fast400 View Post
    Seeing posts like this make me want to bash my head against a wall.
    but it doesnt really prove anything, it disproves their claims to what it is, but it doesnt prove what is in it.

    and many may see Dr. D leaving from religious attacks as a "cop out" but alot of people take their religion very seriously (not me, but i know alot of people who do), and if you see this one instance and him saying hes leaving, yeah, it looks like a copout, but with recent events and people bashing him, id say it was more of a straw that broke the camels back type of deal for him.

    furthermore (saying that makes me seem smart) i dont see how RPN (or representatives there of) proving that Epistane has half the claimed ammount of actives in it is good for Havoc, from the logs i have been reading, both seem to be on par with results, so basically you are proving that an "impure" product with half the actives in comparison to Havoc, is just as good?

    from a business stand point, neither company should have said anything in the first place and just held out their hands for consumers money.

    i get youre trying to help (hopefully) but these threads over the past few days havent had civil arguments in them, it has been more bashing of a member, and constant prodding for answers.

    again, i would really hate to see Dr. D's PM box.

    give him some time, he will most likely come back and speak about this some more, hopefully before the thread reaches 30 pages and gets locked.
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    RPN hasn't made any claims about epistane from what I have seen. I apologize if I am wrong
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minus83 View Post
    but it doesnt really prove anything, it disproves their claims to what it is, but it doesnt prove what is in it.

    and many may see Dr. D leaving from religious attacks as a "cop out" but alot of people take their religion very seriously (not me, but i know alot of people who do), and if you see this one instance and him saying hes leaving, yeah, it looks like a copout, but with recent events and people bashing him, id say it was more of a straw that broke the camels back type of deal for him.

    furthermore (saying that makes me seem smart) i dont see how RPN (or representatives there of) proving that Epistane has half the claimed ammount of actives in it is good for Havoc, from the logs i have been reading, both seem to be on par with results, so basically you are proving that an "impure" product with half the actives in comparison to Havoc, is just as good?

    from a business stand point, neither company should have said anything in the first place and just held out their hands for consumers money.

    i get youre trying to help (hopefully) but these threads over the past few days havent had civil arguments in them, it has been more bashing of a member, and constant prodding for answers.

    again, i would really hate to see Dr. D's PM box.

    give him some time, he will most likely come back and speak about this some more, hopefully before the thread reaches 30 pages and gets locked.
    RPN, and my representatives, have said VERY little during this whole situation - for good reason. RPN did no such thing as prove anything about anything...we were simply making a product that is what it claims to be on the label and selling it. Look at who was attacked first, and by whom, and how the eventual testing results ended up..then you make your decision based on that.

    Once again, I will let my attorneys discuss the matters of tort violations, unfair business practices, and libelous remarks. Those parties that contacted distributors with false and misleading information in attempts to discredit my company will have plenty of opportunity and a nice, oath-sworn chance to explain themselves.

    And now, I will go back to shutting up and letting fools speak when they should have never spoken in the first place.
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    nobody seems to be wondering WHY DO PEOPLE STILL GET GAINS AND HAVE GREAT SUCCESS WITH GYNO REDUCTION!? if its not what it claims to be then what the hell else out there can reduce gyno and deliver great strength gains?
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    OK, I see quite a few problems with this test.

    1.) Why even bother to test it when you have no standard. You say the standard is 288? Have you shown us some documentation showing that the peak ion for this compound is 288?

    2.) D's previous explanation of the fragmentation in the GC/MS is legit taking into account that the actual weight of the compound is much higher that 270 peak.

    3.) This could all be solved if a company was hired to synthesize epi in house then develop a standard for the RT as well Mass Spec.

    4.) All this bickering is pointless. your comparing one test to someone else's word about what it should be. Id personally like to see the GC/MS data for havoc rather than take someones word for it.


    Can we see the tests on havoc and SFR's product??
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist2234 View Post
    OK, I see quite a few problems with this test.

    1.) Why even bother to test it when you have no standard. You say the standard is 288? Have you shown us some documentation showing that the peak ion for this compound is 288?

    2.) D's previous explanation of the fragmentation in the GC/MS is legit taking into account that the actual weight of the compound is much higher that 270 peak.

    3.) This could all be solved if a company was hired to synthesize epi in house then develop a standard for the RT as well Mass Spec.

    4.) All this bickering is pointless. your comparing one test to someone else's word about what it should be. Id personally like to see the GC/MS data for havoc rather than take someones word for it.


    Can we see the tests on havoc and SFR's product??
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    RPN, and my representatives, have said VERY little during this whole situation - for good reason. RPN did no such thing as prove anything about anything...we were simply making a product that is what it claims to be on the label and selling it. Look at who was attacked first, and by whom, and how the eventual testing results ended up..then you make your decision based on that.

    Once again, I will let my attorneys discuss the matters of tort violations, unfair business practices, and libelous remarks. Those parties that contacted distributors with false and misleading information in attempts to discredit my company will have plenty of opportunity and a nice, oath-sworn chance to explain themselves.

    And now, I will go back to shutting up and letting fools speak when they should have never spoken in the first place.

    oh i know, RPN has been the quietest in this whole debacle, and maybe "representatives" was the wrong word, i meant it as in "people who seems to be speaking on behalf of" or "people who seem to have an inside link to the company"

    yes, RPN has been the most professional about this, and IBE did "strike first" but judging by the messageboard talk, Epistane is being trashed by people way more than Havoc is.

    and now ill admit, it is justified due to these tests and this mysterious compound, but these results were just posted, and the bad mouthing has been going on for 2-3 weeks now, usually when you talk bad about a product (speaking of people on messageboards) you have evidence or some kind of lincling first, and then you make your claims, not the other way around, which is how this happened.

    and i have no "side" in this, im just saying in terms of people who have came out attacking IBE and their product, vs the people attacking RPN and Havoc, IBE has alot more people that seem to hate them in this, and the people speaking on behalf of IBE to these people who are bad mouthing them, seems to be reasonable, intelligent, and non-flammatory in their responses, as opposed to the ones accusing them of said things.

    again, it is no fault of either company, im just talking about the events on the internet that have transpired in the last few weeks, whether or not actual reps from companies were involved, there was alot of hate for companies, and that spilled over to hate for individuals representing said companies, when it really shouldnt have.
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    Oh please poor Dr.D. The way people apologize for him because of his vocal profession of his christianity is just amazing. The fact of the matter is that:

    (1) epistane does not meet label claims as to the amount of the claimed active ingredient. claim 10mg actual amount of active is 3.2mg. Way underdosed

    (2) Epistane is not what it claims to be.

    How can you defend a company that lies to you and then hides behind its religion. IBE and Dr.D have committed a serious criminal offense if they knowingly did this. It is one thing to take a risk ingesting a substance if you know what you are ingesting. It is a crime to tell the consumer you are getting one thing and giving you another.

    I do not care if it works or not, you do not know what this substance is, there is no way to justify this disgusting behavior. What is wrong with you people. It is almost like you are eager to be scammed and have your health placed at risk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minus83 View Post
    from a business stand point, neither company should have said anything in the first place and just held out their hands for consumers money.
    it doesnt bother you that these products might not contain what they say they do? and in the incorrect doses?

    i wholeheartedly disagree. it would be a very dangerous situation if consumers did not care what these companies are selling their customers.

    yes, the products deliver similiar results, yes that is good.

    at least one of these products doesnt contain what it says it does. it is a trust issue. do you really trust a company that lies about it product label with preparing a safe and effective substance for you?

    i do not. quality is extremely important, as is trust in this market. repuation is everything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomi822 View Post
    it doesnt bother you that these products might not contain what they say they do? and in the incorrect doses?

    i wholeheartedly disagree. it would be a very dangerous situation if consumers did not care what these companies are selling their customers.

    yes, the products deliver similiar results, yes that is good.

    at least one of these products doesnt contain what it says it does. it is a trust issue. do you really trust a company that lies about it product label with preparing a safe and effective substance for you?

    i do not. quality is extremely important, as is trust in this market. repuation is everything.
    I agree, as a consumer I have no personal stake in either company so it makes no difference to me. Personally I just want the truth about the products I'm using or may use in future. So far it seems like the truth hasn't come out but we're getting close. I've been following these threads since the beginning and while I've supported IBE with my purchases in the past, all I've seen thus far is unprofessional behavior and evasion when confronted with anything. Obviously both products "work" based on everything I've seen from logs, but thats not the issue here. I also do agree that some people went overboard with attacking IBE elsewhere, but again that is not the issue.

    and now that the test results are out in the open, Dr. D bails? Guess who the burden of proof is on now?
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    Quote Originally Posted by cavefish View Post
    and now that the test results are out in the open, Dr. D bails? Guess who the burden of proof is on now?
    He bailed because people were attacking him PERSONALLY! maybe if you actually read the thread you would see that they were attacking his religion! THAT ISN'T COOL ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!

    if you guys are gonna "debate" (not that i would even come close to saying it is one) then do it correctly and without PERSONAL ATTACKS!

    RPN (dsade) has behaved reputably thus far and Dr. D has behaved reputably thus far! looks to me like "others" have not.................
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    Quote Originally Posted by macedaddy View Post
    He bailed because people were attacking him PERSONALLY! maybe if you actually read the thread you would see that they were attacking his religion! THAT ISN'T COOL ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!

    if you guys are gonna "debate" (not that i would even come close to saying it is one) then do it correctly and without PERSONAL ATTACKS!

    RPN (dsade) has behaved reputably thus far and Dr. D has behaved reputably thus far! looks to me like "others" have not.................


    guys the whole point of this thread was to talk about the companies in general. The minute everyone starts making personal attacks and statements about religion it crosses the line. There is no place for it on the board!
    I applaud RPN for the mature way they have delt with this entire soap opera, and Dr. D for keeping his wits about himself while being personally attacked. I too like to get out the truth, but i think a public forum is not the place for it.
    best of luck to both sides,
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    I would like to know if these Compounds are different, as while havoC did give me results, i got no gyno reduCtion. If the IBE is diff then the rpn i would be intrested in trying their produCt. I'm not sidin with either Company as both prooduCts are yeilding results, but if they are really two diff Compounds i would like to give epi a try. Has anyone used both as i said i tried havoC and it yeilded appreCiable results, unfortunatley gyno reduCtion was not one of them
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    Quote Originally Posted by macedaddy View Post
    He bailed because people were attacking him PERSONALLY! maybe if you actually read the thread you would see that they were attacking his religion! THAT ISN'T COOL ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!
    So what? If IBE doesn't clear up this mess, they are done. You figure they'd be able to overlook the loud mouthed Australopithecus among us in order to stay in business.

    That somebody hurt Dr. D's feelings is not my concern. That IBE defrauded me is. I don't care how sacrilegious the conduct of a few board members is, IBE is obligated to tell us what we've actually been putting in our bodies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by john123131 View Post


    guys the whole point of this thread was to talk about the companies in general. The minute everyone starts making personal attacks and statements about religion it crosses the line. There is no place for it on the board!
    I applaud RPN for the mature way they have delt with this entire soap opera, and Dr. D for keeping his wits about himself while being personally attacked. I too like to get out the truth, but i think a public forum is not the place for it.
    best of luck to both sides,
    john


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nabeshin View Post
    So what? If IBE doesn't clear up this mess, they are done. You figure they'd be able to overlook the loud mouthed Australopithecus among us in order to stay in business.

    That somebody hurt Dr. D's feelings is not my concern. That IBE defrauded me is. I don't care how sacrilegious the conduct of a few board members is, IBE is obligated to tell us what we've actually been putting in our bodies.

    EXACTLY!!!
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    I'm still confused. Lets just say that there are two suppliers in china producing this stuff. One of them gets it right, one gets it wrong. Well without a reference standard, how are we to know which it is? We can't test it, since we don't even know what the properties of a the real compound are.

    There is no way that the MW is actually 288 without degradation, since that is the same as testosterone and this is a methylated compound. Maybe the base weighs that, but I can't see how the complete compound would.

    From what I have read people seem to get gyno reduction far more with Epistane than with Havoc.

    As far as I am concerned this test means nothing really. As stated before we can't obtain a sample that we KNOW is 100% pure, so how can we guess which is right? As far as well all know neither is the real compound. The results are there though, like it or not this stuff is doing something. Blood tests have revealed no one is in real danger from using these either. Maybe we should be happy about that. Everyone *****s that we should know whats in it, you don't know whats in most of the stuff you consume on a daily basis. You can read the label, but you never know is some how there was some cross contamination. Bet that salmonella wasn't on the label for your peanut butter last month. Same goes with the "real" stuff. You have to go on word of mouth and blind faith. You don't like not knowing exactly what is in everything you consume, you better move to the woods and hunt for all your food from here on out. That or believe what 100's of people have posted about a compound working, maybe they're all shills though? Paranoid much?

    Finally, how can anyone really trust PA in this matter? Hes a cool guy and all, but seriously, doesn't anyone remember why he was banned from this VERY board? He's had a bone to pick with IBE for years, hes feeding off the paranoia that has ensued.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aspire210 View Post
    I'm still confused. Lets just say that there are two suppliers in china producing this stuff. One of them gets it right, one gets it wrong. Well without a reference standard, how are we to know which it is?
    The same way you can calculate the expected MW of dihydrogen monoxide without having any on hand.

    I'm amazed at all the IBE apologia. Forget everything except for the numbers --- the numbers are all that matter. Epistane should have a measured MW of 288, and it doesn't. IBE needs to explain why.

    All other points are moot until that is resolved.
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    aspire, I Couldn't agree more with what you just said

    It Could even be a positive thing if these are two diff produCts

    maybe we have two exCellent Compounds floatin around,

    I like to beleive the best in people and neither of these Companies have rubbed me the wrong way, atleast from a personal standpoint
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    Exactly why should epistane measured at a MW of 288? Maybe I'm lost but since we can't obtain a pure, real sample how do we know this? I also don't get how a methylated steroid could weigh that little.
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    I don't believe all the, "who cares what's in it - it works" talk!

    Might I remind the jury that the question is not whether it *works* or not, but rather what is in the capsules is what is stated on the label. I don't like liars, cheats, or thieves... aka dishonest people. So, if I buy a product, I EXPECT it to contain what it says in black and white on the side of the bottle.

    Edit: It's bad enough if it was just an oversight or lack of QC, but MUCH worse if they were intentionally misleading.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShakesAllDay View Post
    I don't believe all the, "who cares what's in it - it works" talk!

    Might I remind the jury that the question is not whether it *works* or not, but rather what is in the capsules is what is stated on the label. I don't like liars, cheats, or thieves... aka dishonest people. So, if I buy a product, I EXPECT it to contain what it says in black and white on the side of the bottle.
    Well how do we know who is to blame? If we can't get a pure sample then how can we even test the raws? I doubt anyone intentionally mislead here, its more likely a plant in china said they could make the stuff but didn't do a great job.

    Also, I would bet that if you tested every product, supplement or otherwise, that it wouldn't contain exactly what was listed on the label. Do you go to your grocery store and complain about this? Or do you go "hmm that was some good chicken" and go on with your life? I mean, do you even know whats in the meats you eat? If you think us juicers are endocrine experiments, then you should take a good long look at the hormone therapy used on live stock. Do you enjoy all that estrogen that's in that chicken breast?
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    Personally i would like to see the effeCts(blood Chem) on the human body of one produCt vs the other, i dont Care what it was intended to be or even if the real Compound in the bottle is "extraCt of a dirty hooker". If the Compound is safe and works that is all i Care about and that is how i would like to make my ChoiCe

    I like to leave matters of semantiCs to lawyers and politiCans
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    Quote Originally Posted by aspire210 View Post
    Exactly why should epistane measured at a MW of 288? Maybe I'm lost but since we can't obtain a pure, real sample how do we know this? I also don't get how a methylated steroid could weigh that little.
    To quote PA (who, regardless of how you like him, knows his chem):

    yes the results for havoc show that the stuff contains a compuond that has a MW of 288. 288 is the correct MW for the methylepistanol (it desulfurizes in the injection port to give 288)

    This was posted earlier in this thread. And in case anybody here doesn't know, you can calculate what the raw MW should be just by the chemical structure alone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by evan View Post
    aspire, I Couldn't agree more with what you just said

    It Could even be a positive thing if these are two diff produCts

    maybe we have two exCellent Compounds floatin around,

    I like to beleive the best in people and neither of these Companies have rubbed me the wrong way, atleast from a personal standpoint
    How is it a positive thing when a company is defrauding people, and lying about what they are putting in their product. Customers purchased this product believing that it was one substance and recieved another (God knows what) type of substance. It does not matter if it is effective or not, this is a matter of ethics.

    So what if somebody attacked PhatDaddy (I will never refer to him as a doctor because he is not) or his religion. He lied and deceived people for his own benefit and hides behind religion. That is not a way a christian is supposed to behave, I question the christianinty of any man who devotes his life to selling gray markjet steroids and research chemicals as well, I seriously doubt jesus would approve of this. He does not even have the guts to confront people on his own IBE forum. This is not a personal attack this is the truth. Prepare for lawsuits IBE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nabeshin View Post
    To quote PA (who, regardless of how you like him, knows his chem):

    yes the results for havoc show that the stuff contains a compuond that has a MW of 288. 288 is the correct MW for the methylepistanol (it desulfurizes in the injection port to give 288)

    This was posted earlier in this thread. And in case anybody here doesn't know, you can calculate what the raw MW should be just by the chemical structure alone.
    As I stated earlier, PA is a bad person to trust in this case. He was banned for accusing IBE of selling bad products and was proven wrong. He has had a problem with IBE for years. In the original thread on BB.com, he popped in and stirred up trouble as well.

    Please go ahead and lay out the math for the MW calculation for epistane then take into account the desulforization that will occur and produce a new MW. Unless you can do this yourself you are full of it. At least I'm not claiming to be able to do something I'm not. I know how to calculate SIMPLE MW's as well, but i couldn't do it with a steroid like this.

    Also, how are we so sure that nothing else occurs, I mean, that is a pretty big difference. Epistane having been desulforized could induce other chemical changes as well. Did he learn this will testing Havoc or is it just a theory? Neither is legitimate since we don't know exactly what is in Havoc either and theory's are just that, theorys.

    For the record, I don't really like IBE personally, but just because I don't like them, doesn't make them guilty.
  

  
 

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