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Prohormones FAQ

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    Prohormone FAQ
    By pogue
    pogue22@ziplip.com
    Revision 1.3 - 6/12/03

    Special thanks to Tkarrde & roobear - as requested to be posted @ AM by Kitchen Chemist

    Included here are some of the most common questions asked about prohormones. This has been compiled into information based on some scientific studies, but mostly from user feedback after years of success using prohormones. Please keep in mind that this document might have some errors and you will need to do much more reading before you decide whether or not use prohormones.

    1. What are prohormones?

    Prohormones are synthetically manufactured compounds which convert to anabolic hormones via enzymes in the liver; hormone precursors. They are commonly abbreviated as PHs.

    2. What are they used for?

    Prohormones are used by athletes looking to increase size, strength, endurance, reduce recovery time or add lean body mass. They are most often used for increasing muscle mass or reducing bodyfat levels. Life extension groups are also increasingly using prohormones as a means of hormone replacement therapy, as an alternative to prescription drug use.

    3. Do they have side effects?

    Yes. Prohormones can have the same side effects as anabolic steroids, and are dependant upon the user as to which side effects one might experience. Some side effects are acne, hair loss, breast tissue enlargement, and prostate swelling. The potential for these side effects does exist, but it can be reduced if one uses proper precautionary measures (see below). Generally, if a person is genetically predisposed to a side effect it will occur (i.e.: if someone has a history of male pattern baldness in the family, it could be assumed that this could be a side effect experienced if certain prohormones are used)

    4. Which prohormones convert to which compounds?

    Here is a list
    4 androstenediol (4AD or 4diol) converts to testosterone
    19 nor-4-androstenediol (Nordiol or nordiol) converts to nortestosterone or nandrolone
    1 androstenediol (1AD) converts to 1-testosterone (dihydroboldenone)
    1,4 androstenedione and 1,4 androstenediol (1,4andro or Boldione) converts to boldenone and slightly converts to estrogen (the diol version does not convert to estrogen)
    5 alpha androstenediol (5AA) converts to DHT
    3 beta androstenediol (3 beta) converts to DHT
    3 alpha androstenediol (3 alpha) converts to DHT
    4 hydroxy androstenedione converts to 4 hydroxy testosterone which is an aromatize inhibitor (blocks formation of estrogen)
    7-KETO-DHEA does not convert to any active anabolic compounds
    1-testosterone (1-test) is already an active compound and does not need to undergo conversion

    Compounds you want to avoid.
    5 androstenediol (5AD or 5diol) converts to testosterone at a very low rate and is an estrogen agonist
    4 androstenedione (andro) converts to testosterone and estrone (estrogen)
    19 nor-4-androstenedione (norandro) converts to nortestosterone and estrogen
    DHEA converts to androstenedione and can be converted to all other hormones
    Pregnenolone converts to progesterone and can be converted to all other hormones

    5. How do prohormones work?

    Basically, when they are administered into the system, they are broken down in the liver and converted to their target hormone via certain enzymes. There have been a number of quotes describing how much of the hormone is converted, but there is no definitive answer as to how much of the prohormone is converted into its target active. Once a certain amount is created, the enzymes used for conversion become saturated and no more can be converted. This is true with all the compounds, except for 1-testosterone which really isn’t a prohormone.

    6. What do the target hormones do?

    Each hormone works in different ways once it is converted, but essentially it attaches to an androgen receptor in the cells of your body. This in turn increases nitrogen retention and protein synthesis, meaning that your body is in a constant anabolic state (assuming you are continuously supplying your body with the hormone). Here is a brief description of each hormone and what it does.

    Testosterone is the primary male hormone responsible for development of the sex organs and muscle growth. Testosterone is both anabolic and androgenic—anabolic meaning it causes muscle growth and androgenic meaning that it causes development of secondary sex characteristics. Testosterone converts to both DHT and estrogen in its parent form. Testosterone is often the primary hormone used on a cycle of steroids. It is a mass builder, and will often help with unwanted androgenic side effects of other steroids. Although conversion to estrogen can cause many unwanted side effects on its own, testosterone should generally be the base to any cycle.

    Nandrolone is an anabolic hormone, with not as much androgenic potential. It attaches to the androgen receptor with greater affinity than testosterone, but can cause a loss of libido and generally stays active in the system much longer than does testosterone. This is the “safest” choice for users who want to avoid most common side effects.

    DHT (dihydrotestosterone) is the primary androgenic hormone in the body. It is responsible for increases in strength, as well as most of the unwanted side effects common with steroids. DHT is converted from testosterone via the 5 alpha reductase enzyme. DHT receptors are high in the scale, skin and prostate; high DTH levels are the most common cause of prostate swelling, acne, and male pattern baldness.

    Boldenone is a veterinary hormone, which is commercially sold as Equipoise. Equipoise is known as an alternative to nandrolone when using steroids. It provides an increase in appetite, with some fat burning potential. Boldenone converts to estrogen at about half the rate of testosterone. Those who are looking to avoid some of the stronger androgenic side effects also commonly use it. 1-testosterone is the 5 alpha reduced version of Boldenone.

    7. How do I take prohormones?

    There are three common routes of administration for prohormones. These are usually based on their efficacy (i.e. how much is absorbed). Since the liver and stomach lining breaks down prohormones rather efficiently, taking them orally is the poorest route of administration. Most users prefer transdermal (topical) administration. When taken this way, you apply it to your skin and it will continue being absorbed over a period of 12 hours or so. Cyclodextrins or sublingual methods are also commonly used, which is where the prohormones are dissolved under the tongue. This also has a high level of absorption and works well. There are also some products on the market which are sold as “intraoral” or “intranasal”. These are meant to be sprayed into the nostril prior to your workout, and are generally only meant as preworkout boosts, not for a cycle of prohormones.

    Some manufactures have started selling prohormones in oral form with an ester attached. This, in theory, will allow it to be slowly absorbed for many hours similar to the other methods, but to my knowledge, there have been no studies demonstrating that this method increases bioavailability.

    8. What is a cycle? What does stacking mean?

    A cycle is generally used to describe a length of time and common dosage when taking prohormones. Stacking means taking more than one prohormone at a time to increase gains or reduce side effects. Common cycle lengths are 2 weeks, 4 weeks, 6 weeks, and 8 weeks. I recommend 4 week cycles, which seem to give the most gains with fewer sides. I would not recommend going beyond 8 weeks.

    Common stacks are 4AD and Nordiol, 1AD and 4AD, 1-test and 4AD, etc. You will notice most everything is stacked with 4AD. This is because testosterone gives you a bit more leverage, providing good gains and overall anabolism, with reduced androgenic side effects. Each of the prohormones can be taken alone, or taken together. The choice is yours and should be made from reading this text, and all the user feedback from this board and others. Research, research, research!

    9. What is post cycle therapy?

    Post cycle therapy is a tried and true method of helping to solidify your gains by raising natural testosterone levels and lowering estrogen levels once your cycle is over. When you add external hormones to your body, your own natural production becomes suppressed. Your body attempts to compensate your endocrine system by stabilizing the other hormones, which results in an increase in estrogen. Once you quit supplying your body with external hormones, your natural testosterone will be low and estrogen will be high. Therefore, anti-estrogens are taken to halt the manufacture of estrogen in the body. This will result in higher testosterone levels, hence making it easier to keep your gains. Post cycle therapy should begin the next day after the prohormones have stopped being taken. Common post cycle therapy drugs are listed below with dosages:

    6OXO
    6oxo is an aromatize inhibitor sold by Ergopharm. It is the best over the counter anti-estrogen available for post cycle use.
    Week 1 – 600mg daily in two divided doses, morning and night
    Week 2-3 – 400mg daily
    Week 4 – 300mg daily

    Formasin/Formastat/Aromazap
    Note: 4 hydroxy androstenedione acts as a weak androgen and can cause further suppression of natural testosterone, but can be used post cycle.
    Dosages should be 250mg a day for the first two weeks, followed by anywhere from 50-250mg a day for the next two.

    Clomid
    Clomid is a prescription fertility drug, but is highly available and highly effective at blocking estrogen and increasing LH output.
    Day 1 – 300mg
    Day 2-11 100mg
    Day 11-21 50mg
    OR
    150mg daily for 2 weeks
    100mg daily for 2 weeks

    Nolvadex
    Nolvadex is also a prescription, which is highly available and blocks estrogen at the receptor.
    Week 1-2 – 40mg daily
    Week 2-4 – 20mg daily

    There are other prescription anti-estrogens available, but these two will be fine unless side effects arise, so we won’t discuss the other options in this FAQ.

    Other common post cycle favorites including high doses of flax oil, ZMA, tribulus and an ECA stack coupled with reduced training volume and increased calories (500 or so above maintenance). But, it is very important to use an anti-estrogen for post cycle. I would never recommend not using one unless the cycle length is 2 weeks or less.

    10. What dosages should I use?

    Dosages are different for the different routes of administration and for the different hormones taken. Here is a basic outline of each prohormone along with general cycles used, based on user feedback. For your first cycle, I recommend sticking to a lighter dosing schedule for 2-4 weeks. Note: This is a general guideline. Dosages for any cycle can be higher or lower, and some products may incorporate one or more of these compounds so that the below amount might not be able to be achieved. This is just a basic outline and is far from completely accurate.

    1AD

    1AD is by far the most popular prohormone. It is considered to be the most effective taken orally, and has resounding user feedback. It is best stacked with 4AD to reduce side effects, the most common of which include lethargy and reduced libido. 1AD should not be used transdermally, and could be used sublingually, although there are few products with this delivery system used. 1AD is commonly stacked with 4AD and shouldn’t be stacked with nordiol, or the DHT precursors.

    4-6 week cycles are best taken at anywhere from 300-900mg daily. Take in divided doses throughout the day to keep blood levels elevated.

    4AD

    4AD is the next best. It is almost always used with other hormones due also to its resounding user feedback and adding large amounts of mass from increases in testosterone and estrogen. 4AD can be taken orally, transdermally, or sublingually.
    2-6 week cycles are generally used. 4AD can be stacked with just about anything.

    Oral:
    300-1500mg daily. Oral is probably the worst way to take this, but if you are simply looking to reduce sides of 1AD, etc – it works. Take in divided doses to ensure elevated blood levels.

    Transdermal:
    400-600mg daily with two applications in morning at night.

    Sublingual:
    Probably 15-50mg at a time, 3 times or more daily in divided doses.

    Nordiol

    Nordiol is the best prohormone for use by people who want to avoid the common androgenic sides associated with the other hormones. Can be taken orally, transdermally or sublingually. 2-4 week cycles recommended. Heavily suppressive, despite what literature says. Nordiol is commonly stacked with 4ad for mass, or 1,4andro for cutting or users wanting reduced sides effects.

    Oral:
    500-800mg daily in divided doses

    Transdermal:
    500-800mg daily in split doses morning and night

    Sublingual:
    15-50mg in divided doses

    1,4andro

    1,4andro is renowned for causing appetite stimulation. It’s low in estrogenic sides and good for cutting or bulking. Some people claim that transdermal administration works well, but the feedback I’ve seen has been poor. Oral seems to be the route of administration, and the dione version appears to work better than the diol. 1,4andro can be stacked with just about anything. Taking 1,4andro for less than 4 weeks is generally a waste because it takes quite a while for the effects to kick in.

    Oral:
    300-600mg daily in divided doses.

    Transdermal:
    N/A



    Sublingual:
    N/A

    1-testosterone

    1-test is the active form of 1AD and is best taken transdermally or sublingually, although oral products suspended in oil with an ether attached also have very good feedback. 1-test is best stacked with 4AD for mass or 1,4andro for cutting.

    Oral:
    150-300mg when taken in ethergel product in divided doses

    Transdermal:
    200-500mg daily or more in split doses

    Sublingual:
    Not sure


    5AA/3 beta/3 alpha

    These all convert to DHT at different rates and have slightly different properties. I’m a little hazy on all of them, except that 5 alpha can compete with estrogen for receptor activity when converted to DHT. Some people have used 5AA in an oral product as a preworkout boost, while others have used 3 alpha for a “hardening” agent.

    Thanks to roobear for the below info on DHT precursors

    3-Alpha/Beta
    3-alpha/beta will illicit exactly the same anabolic/androgenic responses, differing only in their conversion rates - 3-alpha 43% / 3-beta 9% respectively. The bioavailability of 3-alpha/beta is purported to be relatively low (by Bill himself) and thus would serve well to be administered transdermally. These compounds are best used in conjunction with other compounds, preferably of an anabolic nature (ie Nordiol, 1,4 Andro and 4-AD) - inducing drastic increases in strength, vascularity and muscle hardness.

    3-Alpha
    Oral:
    100-300mg (lower dosage being more of a "stacking" quantity)

    Transdermal:
    50-150mg (lower dosage being more of a "stacking" quantity)

    3-Beta
    Oral:
    Outdated - use 3-alpha

    Transdermal:
    200-500mg(lower dosage being more of a "stacking" quantity)
    7-Keto-DHEA

    This is slightly out of the scope of this FAQ, but is generally used for cutting. This has been shown to increase thyroid output and lower cortisol levels, without converting to target hormones. Used for cutting stacked with other thermogenic compounds for 4-6 weeks.

    Oral:
    200mg in two divided doses

    Transdermal:
    100mg daily

    11. Are prohormones legal?

    Yes, currently they are legal in the US and some other countries. Please visit www.usfa.biz and write your politicians to ensure they stay that way. Prohormones are not tested for in job drug tests, but they are probably banned and can potentially show up on a drug test for athletics. Check your local laws for specific information.

    12. Who should use prohormones?

    Mature adults above the age of 21 looking for increases in lean muscle mass or decreases in bodyfat levels. Most veterans will advise using prohormones after several years of training, to ensure you have a good feel for proper diet, nutrition and supplementation. Using prohormones under the age of 18 is a very bad idea; it can result in the closure of growth plates, thus resulting in permanently stunted growth; it can also result in potentially serious endocrine system problems. Those with potential for or already enlarged prostate or those susceptible to male pattern baldness should not use prohormones; nor should prohormones be used by people with heart conditions, who currently have gynocomastia, or have liver or kidney problems. If you have any doubts, see a doctor before using these compounds.

    13. Can I take prohormones along with steroids?

    This is a hotly debated subject. Yes, you can – but why? If you have access to steroids, why would you bother with prohormones? Anabolic steroids are already hormones in their current form and require no conversion – hence, they are more powerful, albeit illegal.
    The only compound I would say that you could take with any other steroid would be
    1-testosterone, which would be an equivalent of Primobolan or Equipose. The only other thing I can think of would be taking 4AD with Fina to reduce side effects. There is more information about this on boards like Anabolicminds or Animal’s board.

    14. How can I avoid some of the potential side effects associated with prohormones?

    There are certain ancillary compounds available to treat potential side effects of prohormones. Below is a list I compiled which is pretty basic and should help clarify some of the issues of side effects.

    Prostate Issues

    The prostate is an organ at the neck of the bladder where it joins the urethra. It is responsible for controlling urination and ejaculation. Common symptoms of prostate problems are frequent or difficult urination, dribbling when urinating, erection difficulty, and pain in that general area. Either a rise in estrogen or DHT levels from increased testosterone, etc., probably causes this. If you have ongoing prostate issues, it’s best not to use prohormones, though potentially the use of nordiol might be acceptable.

    Herbal treatments:
    Saw Palmetto Extract – Usual dosage is 160mg several times daily
    Beta sisterol or plant phytosterols – 300mg several times daily
    Flax seed oil – anywhere from 5-20 tblspoons daily

    Prescription Treatments:
    Proscar/Propecia – blocks the conversion of testosterone to DHT. Ineffective with DHT derived hormones (1-test, 1ad, 5aa, etc)
    Spironolactone – an anti androgen. Best not used for this, but used topically (more below)

    Acne

    Acne is very common on prohormone cycles, and can range from mild to moderate. It will go away once post cycle treatment concludes, or within a few weeks of cession of the product. The best way to treat acne is with the soaps available at your local grocery store or pharmacy. Just pick up some Neutrogena or whatever and scrub your face twice a day or use the body wash.

    Hair Loss

    Hair loss is caused by increased levels of DHT. Since DHT receptors are heavy on the top of the scalp, some people will notice a lot of shedding or a receding hairline on some cycles. There are various treatments for this; the most common is topical Spironolactone available from Nizoralman or Dr. Lee. The 2% will work as a preventative measure, while the 5% will attempt to help grow some hair back. There are also other methods, such as azelaic acid or Nizoral shampoo, but they are not proven to be effective as spiro is.
    If you are concerned you are losing your hair and are currently taking something to help prevent it, prohormones are probably not the best idea. If still interested in using prohormones, Nordiol might be the best option available to you.

    Gyno

    Gynocomastia, or development of the breast tissue, is sometimes common among aromatizing (converting to estrogen) prohormones. The first symptoms are puffy and itchy or swollen nipples. If you start to notice this while on a cycle, you need to start taking Nolvadex immediately. Formasin/Aromazap/Formastat might work, but 6oxo is not going to help this in most cases, so Nolvadex should ALWAYS be on hand for this situation. It is highly available, not very expensive, and not illegal to posses, so there is no reason not to have it. Don’t wait and order some when you start to get the first signs of gyno, because Nolvadex needs to be taken as soon as symptoms of gyno appear. Start taking 40mg a day until the symptoms subside, and you may want to continue to take 10mg the rest of your cycle as precaution.

    Liver/Kidney

    Prohormones have to pass through your liver in order to convert, no matter what the route of administration, so higher levels of liver enzymes in the blood is common during a cycle. Many steroid users take Milk Thistle and ALA at high doses to combat this, and if you are concerned it would be a good idea to take one or both of these to help that. Problems with kidneys have not been an issue to my knowledge, but steroid users will often also take cranberry juice extract to help with that.

    Depression

    Some people report mild or moderate depression, especially post cycle when using 6oxo. This can be cured with prescription drugs such as Zoloft, Prozac, Paxil, etc. It can also be fought with herbal supplements such as St Johns Wort, 5-HTP or Sam-E. If you go with the herbal route, St Johns Wort should be 300mg 2-3 times daily, 5-HTP at 100mg several times daily, or 100-200mg of Sam-E once daily. You can combine all three if depression is extreme, otherwise my pick would be St. Johns Wort.

    Testicular Atrophy

    Many users report testicular shrinkage during a cycle. The testes will come back to full size once you start post cycle. If they do not, then it’s recommended you take Clomid and possibly even HCG to help restore them.

    Sleeplessness

    Some people report having trouble falling asleep or staying asleep on a cycle. My recommendation is to take 1mg to 3mg of melatonin 30 minutes before bed time. Some other options are Valerian root, GABA, Tylenol PM or Kava Kava (potentially stressful on the liver).

    15. What kind of training should I use when using prohormones?

    Everyone has their own opinion on this, and you should use whatever works for use. Most people put an emphasis on higher volume while using prohormones, and you can add more isolation sets and workout more frequently due to increased recovery time. But don’t overtrain. Just because you’re using prohormones doesn’t mean you need to train daily or twice daily. Also, doing cardio on prohormones is fine. I recommend 2-3 times weekly of 20 minutes, if at all.

    16. How should I eat when on prohormones?

    Try and eat 1-2g of protein per pound of body weight. Try and eat 500-1000 calories above maintenance, or more if bulking. Generally, standard nutrition guidelines should be followed. If cutting, try and eat 10-12 calories per pound of bodyweight, while keeping protein high.

    17. Should I take any other supplements while using prohormones?

    Take whatever you normally take. If you take creatine, it’s fine to continue taking it while using prohormones. Some people prefer to save it for post cycle to help retain some of the water weight. Otherwise, the usual stuff like a multivitamin, a good protein powder and flax seed oil should be standard issue for any athlete.

    18. What are some good manufacturers of prohormone products?

    My personal picks would be Molecular Nutrition, Ergopharm, Avant Labs, BDC Nutrition, San, Syntrax or 1 fast 400. These are stand up companies that generally pump out quality products.

    19. Can I make my own prohormone transdermal/oral/sublingual?

    Yes, there are several companies that offer prohormone powders in bulk such as Kilosports, Beyond a Century and 1 fast 400. You can buy powders from them and make your own capsules, cyclodextrins or transdermals easily. Visit Anabolicminds or Avant Labs message boards for a wealth of how-to information.

    20. Can I inject prohormones?

    This is out of the scope of this FAQ, but yes you can. The results have been mixed, there have been some questions of products purity used in injectables, and there is a question of whether or not using them for this purpose is legal.

    21. Is there anything I should know about transdermal delivery?

    Transdermals should be applied twelve hours apart. It is a good idea to apply them after showering and to rotate application spots daily. Apply lotion to application spots not in use. This is a good way to avoid a rash from the topical, which is a common side effect reported by users. Some prefer to scrub themselves with a luffa or sponge before applying them to remove the first layer of dead skin cells for optimal delivery. It is also a good idea to wear latex gloves when applying, and wash your hands when you are finished to avoid getting the solution into your eyes or other sensitive areas. Keep in mind that high amounts of sweating or getting the area wet too soon after application will wash it off, so it might have to be reapplied if this occurs.

    22. Is there anything I should know about oral/liquid delivery?

    There are many products on the market with liquid delivery systems. You will need to drink these, and most of them taste badly. Just try and get them down as quickly as possible, or mix with another flavored liquid to help the taste. Also keep in mind that liquid and oral delivery methods are generally less effective. Even if the product is esterfied, it is still a good idea to take it several times daily in small divided doses to ensure saturated blood levels at all times.

    23. Is there anything I should know about sublingual delivery?

    Try and let the product dissolve under your tongue and do not eat or drink anything for around 10-20 minutes after you take the product. As with orals, you will need to take it several times daily to maintain blood levels.

    24. Which prohormones are best used in a bulking cycle and what kind of gains can I expect?

    Most people prefer the combination of 1-test and 4ad. This is a tried and true stack combination and most people seem to gain the best from it. Adding 1,4andro is also common to increase appetite and may help gains. How much one will gain off a cycle depends on your diet and training but gaining 10lbs in 4 weeks is quite common.

    25. Which prohormones are best for a cutting cycle?

    Most commonly, people will use non-aromatizing hormones such as 1-test or DHT precursors to act as an anti-catabolic and increase hardness. However, low doses of 4ad may help, and adding 1,4andro can also be beneficial.

    26. Is it okay to drink alcohol while taking prohormones?

    No, it is a really poor idea to drink while doing bodybuilding/weight lifting in general, but taking them while using prohormones is even worse. Taking large amounts of prohormones, especially orally, can cause increased liver stress. When you add alcohol into the equation it is a potential for disaster. If you have to drink, try to do it moderately and take milk thistle and/or ALA to help combat potential problems. Although, it would be best to avoid it completely.

    27. Are there any other good documents I can read about prohormones or related topics?

    Yes, there are several, but they are slightly dated.

    Prohormones

    4AD Information and conversion rates by Patrick Arnold

    Prohormone breakdown by Big Cat

    Post Cycle Therapy

    Understanding Post Cycle “T” Recovery by William Llewellyn

    Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation by William Llewellyn

    Coming Off a Cycle by Marcus Haidam

    If you have any other good links, please let me know and I will add them.

    28. Can I overdose on prohormones?

    Possibly, if you are taking over a gram to two grams a day orally then it could cause some liver strain or stomach discomfort – it will also probably increase the side effects of the hormone. You should never go over 2 grams daily for prohormones, you will not see anymore gains, the side effects will probably be unbearable and most likely the enzymes will be saturated for them to be effective.

    29. I can’t grow! Should I use prohormones?

    No. Anyone should be able to grow naturally without the use of prohormones; prohormones merely speed up the process. If you can’t grow naturally, please post your diet, training and supplement routine for review. Most likely, you are making some errors—so please try and correct these basic issues before you resort to using prohormones. They are not magic and will not work without proper diet and training.

    30. Can women use prohormones?

    Yes, they can – but the doses shouldn’t be as high as using it for men. Using less androgenic hormones like Nordiol or 1,4andro is recommended above the others and no anti-estrogen is needed post cycle. I would recommend using nordiol at 300mg daily or 1,4andro 300mg daily for 2-4 weeks and tapering off the dosages slowly towards the end and possibly using tribulus extract post cycle.

    31. When's the best time to take oral prohormones and should I take them with food?

    You want to take them in divided doses through the day, the standard is 3 doses 3 times daily. Taking them with food is optional, but if you take them with a high fat meal they can help absorption. Also keep hydrated (you should be doing this anyway) so as to avoid a burning sensation when urinating, as experienced with some prohormones. Most prefer to take them preworkout to give them a little extra boost.

    32. Can I be drug tested for prohormones?

    Since prohormones convert into active anabolic compounds, it is the concern of some that they will be tested for in a drug test. The answer is almost always no, they will not show up in a drug test. Drug testing for anabolic steroids is very expensive and has to be asked for specifically. So, unless you are on probation for steroid use, or are a professional athlete, you will not be tested for prohormones/steroids. Also, since most prohormones have very short half lives, they will clear out of your system within a matter of days. General drug tests only test for opiates, ampetamines, cocaine and marijuana. However, if you are planning to join the military, or a sports organization that bans the use of these substances, it would be in your best interest to avoid them.
    Last edited by pogue; 12-29-2003 at 03:04 AM. Reason: Updated email address

  2. Advanced Member
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    Excellent info pogue, thanks for posting it bro!
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    Nice post bro!
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    Originally posted by Draven
    Nice post bro!
     

    Indeed!  I was thinking of another board this would be great on if Pogue didn't mind?

     

     
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    PM him and ask him to post it, that's what i did and once it was finished he posted it over here right away.
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    Originally posted by Kitchen Chemist
    PM him and ask him to post it, that's what i did and once it was finished he posted it over here right away.
    That's what I did. Only I copied it for him. I'm impatient.
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    I can post it whereever. Since I have the original copy, I can keep all the tags the same so it looks nice and purdy.
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    Stickied. The more noobs we get to PH's, the more this will be extremely handy, thanks man Man we have alot of stickies now, damn!
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    Prohormones FAQ: Update


    Prohormones FAQ: Update
    By pogue
    pogue22@ziplip.com
    12/26/03

    The data contained in this update has been compiled mostly from user feedback along with some data present in compounds that have been released to the public in the past, or information from the pharmacutical companies that created these compounds. It is always a good idea to have a full physical before using these substances, along with having blood work done to check for liver/kidney anamolies.

    New Compounds

    Methyl 1-Test

    Methyl 1-Test is 1-testosterone with an alteration to the molecule that allows it to pass through the liver more freely without degredation. When a compound is methylated it changes the physical structure of the compound and it tends to act differently in the body. In the case of methyl 1-test, it seems to be a much stronger anabolic without particularly androgenic sides. Methyl 1-test is being sold in 5mg and 10mg tablets, as well as in powder and solutions. It seems to differ from other methylated compounds such as Winstrol and Dianabol in that it is more stronger mg per mg without very much conversion to DHT. The typical dosing pattern seems to be 5-10mg once daily. Those above 200lbs or experienced steroid/prohormone users might see benefits in 20mg ore more, however the side effects seem to be harsher the more you use. Some of the more common side effects reported are lethargy, decreased appetite, very painful pumps as well as high blood pressure.

    Methyl 1-test is a very powerful compound and is not recommended for beginners. This is clearly a drug and should be thought of as such. The only reason this compound is legal is due to the fact that it was never scheduled as a steroid since it was never manufactured, although its chemical structure is very similar to oral Primobolan. Users of methyl 1-test should be on the lookout for increased liver values, high blood pressure, extreme lethargy and pumps, as well as decreased appetite. Methyl 1-test should definintely be stacked with 4AD to help counteract some of these sides and give you the benefits of testosterone supplementation. Users should get blood work done before and after cycles of this compound.

    A cycle of methyl 1-test should not last any longer than 6 weeks. However, most users seem to prefer the 2 weeks on/2 weeks off pattern.

    Estra-4,9-diene-3,17-dione (Finagenx)

    This is a relatively new compound on the market. The manufacturer claims that this is a precursor to the powerful steroid trenbolone, however this does not seem to be the case. It does appear to convert to a steroid hormone, but it is not tren. It is a dione so you will have some conversion to estrogen even before it converts to its parent hormone. It is unknown what the anabolic/androgenic ratio of its parent hormone is, how it acts in the body, or if it can aromatize or not. This is a very expensive compound for the amount of gains users are reporting. The dosing seems to be very high, although I am not sure of the dosing pattern at this point. I would personally avoid this product. It is too expensive, with very little feedback.

    A methylated version of this compound should be out soon and sounds promising.

    Hydroxy Testosterone

    This testosterone has come on the market recently in the form of transdermals and powder. It is actually nothing like its parent other than the name. It is very mild in terms of anabolic and androgenic potential and would be relatively weak on its own. However, this compound has some very interesting attributes that make it very different from all the other steroids on the market. With the 4 hydroxl position on the molecule, it has the added benefit of not converting to estrogen or DHT. This would make it very similar to the compound Clostebol and ideal for cutting when used on its own. It also has the very interesting attribute of being a mild aromatize inhibitor and 5AR inhibitor (which prevents conversion of testosterone to DHT). One of its metabolites is Formastane (4 hydroxy androstenedione) which is also an aromatize inhibitor. It has also been claimed that this compound will stimulate LH output, which would be great for bridging inbetween cycles and obviously not cause any form of supression. However, I have not seen any data to confirm this.

    This compound appears to be very weak on its own. With the high price per gram for the powder, it would be a poor choice to use on its own. It does stack well with any other compounds, and like everything else would be optimally used with 4AD where it would impart very lean gains with virtually no sides. Since this is such a new compound, I really have no idea on what the dosing pattern would be. I would expect to see a methylated version of this on the market soon. As with all other steroids, this would be a very poor oral compound. It would probably be best used transdermally. Making it into an injectable seems to be very troublesome, as it is not very oil soluble without an ester.

    Hydroxy Nandrolone

    This compound is the same as a steroid known as Oxabolone which has been off the market for years. It has the attributes of being quite anabolic and not very androgenic. It cannot make the conversion to DHN, which is a relatively weak on its own anyway. It has also been speculated that this steroid acts as an aromatize inhibitor, like Hydroxy Testosterone, but I have seen no evidence for this either.

    Most information on this steroid seems to be speculation. Since it is a nandrolone derivative, it might have progesteronal activity. Also, since there is so little feedback on this compound it is hard to say. It would probably be similar to the popular steroid Deca, albeit weaker. It might make a closer match to trenbolone in activity, but there is little evidence to suggest that at this point. With the other compounds, any information on dosage is speculation at this point. A methylated compound known as 17aa 4OHN is soon to be replaced. I have heard claims that this should be similar to Anavar at an even lower dosage. However, this has not been released yet, so we will have to wait and see. As with all methylated compounds, one would want to take similar precautions when using these types of oral based steroids.

    Hydroxy Nandrolone is illegal in California and Nevada, but not federally schedulled.

    Methyl 5AA

    Another methylated version of an older prohormone, methyl 5AA should be a similar match to Proviron or Masteron. This compound will make a conversion to Methyl-DHT in the liver through the 3bHSD enzyme. It should be very well suited as a preworkout stimulant, as well as reducing the effects of estrogen and SHBG on a cycle. Since DHT acts as an aromatize inhibitor, it can help reduce circulating estrogen on a cycle in leu of typical anti-estrogens such as Nolvadex or 6OXO. Oral DHT has also been shown to bind to SHBG, allowing for more of other more powerful androgens to attach to the receptor, allowing for an overall more anabolic effect.

    One problem with DHT and its precursors is the fact that they are deactivated in skeletal muscle through the 3 alrha HD enzyme to prohormones like 5AA and 3 alpha. This seems to happen when an abundance of androgens exist, and is why DHT, even more potent than testosterone, does not make for a great muscle builder. Another concern for its users is the strong androgenic effets of DHT. This would obviously be a concern with individuals with potential prostate issues or androgenic alopecia. However, since this prohormone is making a conversion in the liver, instead of high 5AR saturated areas like the scalp and prostate, it would probably not have as many negative side effects as even typical 4AD/testosterone would.

    The dosage seems to be in the low range. Anywhere from 5-30mg anytime of day would work. It sounds like it would be particularly beneficial preworkout, where it would impart some of the positive benefits on neural activity, giving the user added aggression, energy and strength to have a better workout. As with all methylated compounds, similar precaution should be taken of not running the compound for more than 6 weeks and having blood work done to ensure the liver is in proper working function.

    Methyl 1,4diol

    Here we have a methylated version of the boldenone precursor, 1,4diol. In this version, the methylated version of the diol prohormone has been used instead of the dione. This will allow the hormone only direct conversion to its parent hormone, methylboldenone (Methandrostenolone) better known as Dianabol. Since this is a direct precursor to Dianabol, I would expect the same effects of it such as bloating, water retention and the high possibily of gyno. This is due to the fact that boldenone can aromatize into estrogen, here we would have a more powerful methylated estrogen, Methyl-estradiol. This would obviously be a very good mass builder, imparting gains in size and strength in a very short peroid of time. Obviously, quite a bit of it will be water though. Just as you would run Dianabol, you would want to stack it around 4AD/testosterone. You would want to have a good anti-estrogen on hand such as Nolvadex or Arimidex.

    Dosage for this compound has not been determined yet, but should probably be in the same range we've seen the other methylated prohormones. Again, you would not want to use this for more than 6 weeks and have blood work done once the cycle is completed.

    Methyl 4AD

    As if you didn't see this one coming, we now have a methylated version of our favorite prohormone, 4AD. The problem with this hormone, is it will directly convert to methyltestosterone, which is a very poor compound. Methyltestosterone will aromatize to methyl-estradiol and convert to methyl-DHT. The sides of these would obviously be much harsher than using its non methylated counterpart. The only positive effect I could see from methyl-4AD would be if it had instrinsic anabolic activity before conversion, which we have no idea about. The other good use for this would be as a preworkout boost, where we would have the added aggression and CNS stimulating effects of 4AD. Just using it preworkout would allow us to get the benefits, without the negatives, along with relatively no HPTA shutdown.

    Dosage for this compound has not been determined yet, but should probably be in the same range we've seen the other methylated prohormones. I have seen dosages recommended for 5-30mg daily. Again, you would not want to use this for more than 6 weeks and have blood work done once the cycle is completed.

    Products Not Yet on the Market

    I have added a few products I would expect to see out soon. Some of these may never come to light, but most probably will. So I decided to through them in anyway.

    Methyl Nordiol

    This compound should be fairly similar to the unpopular steroid Nilevar. Being a direct precursor to methyl-nandrolone, we would see increases in methyl-estradiol and methyl-DHN. Giving us a weak anabolic with more sides than we would expect from this weaker hormone. I would also expect there to be progestonal activity with this. So, although this seems to be another poor compound, it might have some good use in women or as a preworkout booster.

    Methyl Hydroxy Testosterone

    I would expect this to be similar to 17aa 4OHN. It will probably be very similar to Oral Turnibol where as it won't convert to estrogen or DHT, it will impart gains on strength and hardness, rather than mass gains.

    A Word About Methylated Compounds

    I feel we are now at the pinnacle of prohormone development. We now have prohormones/steroids that are methylated for almost complete bioavaibility. This is obviously a dream come true for individuals looking for true legal alternatives to illegal steroids. However, we need to realize that these are drugs in the true sense of the word. These can be very dangerous if misused or abused. It is imparitive that people think of these as drugs instead of typical OTC supplements that you can take lightly and not be concerned about possibly bodily harm.

    It is very easy to rationalize the fact that hepatoxicity doesn't happen, or that it happens in very minute amounts, but when we look at studies dealing with oral steroids we only have ones that we have seen on the market for years. With methyl 1-test and others, we have no idea if they are as hepatoxic as Halotestin or as mild as Proviron. It is always a good idea to get blood work done before and after a cycle to ensure that your liver is in proper health and you do not have underlying conditions that could be slowly killing you. Please be safe, and respect that these are powerful chemicals with potential to cause great gains as well as harm your body.

    A Word About Liver Protectants

    A lot of people have been using liver protectant supplements such as Silymarin and NAC to help protect their liver from damage when using methylated compounds. However, I feel that this is a bad idea. When you use compounds that increase gluthione levels in the liver, it will increase the breakdown of oral drugs, making them less effective. Although increasing liver enzymes is good for your liver, it is bad for any drugs you want to take and allow them to pass through your liver unabated. A better idea would be to use liver protectant supplements before and after a cycle to help your liver rebuild its enzymes after they have been damaged by methylated compounds.

    I have no idea if using liver protectants on a cycle will inhibit gains in any significant degree, but it could. Keep that in mind when planning your cycle.
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    In response to when you said: "[1ad] shouldn’t be stacked with nordiol, or the DHT precursors."
    I read Big Cats Prohormone section, in which he recommends this stack (as well as many others). I was just wondering what your thoughts are on this?



    Week 1-2 900 mg of 1AD with 300 mg of Nor-diol
    Week 3-4 600 mg of 1AD with 600 mg of Nor-diol
    Week 5-6 600 mg of 1AD with 300 mg of Nor-diol


    Take half the Nor-diol after breakfast and half after dinner, take 1AD spread over 3 even daily doses.

    This is a tad more expensive. Ok, a lot more expensive. But this epitomizes a great stack. It's commonly believed that drugs with the effect of 1AD should be stacked with a non-androgen. And the most potent non-androgen is Nor-diol. It's a bit of a combination between a ski-slope and a teeter stack that should give great results for the small amount of time you are on it. Normally I would recommend the use of 19Nor so there is no over saturation of the 3-beta enzyme that could compromise the conversion of the 1AD. But with the cost of 1AD I sincerely doubt that anyone can afford to take enough (or would want to) to saturate the enzymes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy_magix
    In response to when you said: "[1ad] shouldn’t be stacked with nordiol, or the DHT precursors."
    I read Big Cats Prohormone section, in which he recommends this stack (as well as many others). I was just wondering what your thoughts are on this?



    Week 1-2 900 mg of 1AD with 300 mg of Nor-diol
    Week 3-4 600 mg of 1AD with 600 mg of Nor-diol
    Week 5-6 600 mg of 1AD with 300 mg of Nor-diol


    Take half the Nor-diol after breakfast and half after dinner, take 1AD spread over 3 even daily doses.

    This is a tad more expensive. Ok, a lot more expensive. But this epitomizes a great stack. It's commonly believed that drugs with the effect of 1AD should be stacked with a non-androgen. And the most potent non-androgen is Nor-diol. It's a bit of a combination between a ski-slope and a teeter stack that should give great results for the small amount of time you are on it. Normally I would recommend the use of 19Nor so there is no over saturation of the 3-beta enzyme that could compromise the conversion of the 1AD. But with the cost of 1AD I sincerely doubt that anyone can afford to take enough (or would want to) to saturate the enzymes.
    While Big Cat's PH articles are good references they are a couple years old which is very old in respect to how rapid the pace of PH development has been. Additionally, if you snoop around Big Cat's articles you'll find that Big Cat himself took this 1-Ad/Nordiol stack, was very lethargic, and got into a motor cycle accident which he blames on the lethargy (might be a stretch).

    ~Todd
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    so what in your opinion is the best prohormone and dosage to use, given the advancement in science since that article?
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    good info, will save a lot of questions in the future
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    i have a question thats been on my mind for a long time.

    when reading big cats' PH atricles (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catproh.htm) i came across something that i didn't really know or understand...

    under the question "when do i take them?" he states this: "- Take plenty of ice-cold showers to shock the system."

    what would taking cold showers have to do with PHs? any benifits?
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    Nice post, Very informational read.
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    Bumping For Newbies


    Just thought I would bump this for the Newbies that weren't around when PH/PS first hit the market. Seems a lot of newbies just play "follow the leader" and don't really have the background information they should before using any type of anabolic...
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    THANKS so much for this!
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    bump for sub list... sorry.
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    This takes me back to the good days.
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    stickiness
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    this WAS a sticky... but most of this isnt deemed applicable any more since its in regards to now banned compounds and i dont think AM wants to generally be associated with this kind of thing, at least not enough to bring it to the forefront, all i can figure is thats why all the transderm and homebrew and like forums were removed.... but i thnk most of these can still be found via the search feature... thats how i dug this one up.
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    subbed for future reference
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    Updated Banned List


    I've been searching, but can't seem to find a comprehensive post on what is banned and what is not?

    Help anyone?
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    I'm having a hard time picking which prohormone to run, im a beginner, what would be great for bulking gaining mass ?
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    Good thread here.
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    Excellent thread. Rep.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone
    Good thread here.
    I second that
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone
    Just thought I would bump this for the Newbies that weren't around when PH/PS first hit the market. Seems a lot of newbies just play "follow the leader" and don't really have the background information they should before using any type of anabolic...
    You bumped this in 07 too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1 View Post
    You bumped this in 07 too.

    Yeah. It is a good thread with some great basic information. I don't know though, there seems to be a guy that really doesn't like me bumping threads that are old.
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    it's a nice bump, i just glanced over the info, but it looks to be good.

    man, if I had even known about pro hormones back then, man if i did......
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Yeah. It is a good thread with some great basic information. I don't know though, there seems to be a guy that really doesn't like me bumping threads that are old.
    Great basic information on what? These products do not even exist anymore.

    Maybe you can bump an thread on the topic of how to hunt kill for our own food sources like they did back before we became an industrialized society.

    Relevance.
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    Here's an old one you can bump:

    First test thread...
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Great basic information on what? These products do not even exist anymore.

    Maybe you can bump an thread on the topic of how to hunt kill for our own food sources like they did back before we became an industrialized society.

    Relevance.
    It does have some basic information about pro-hormones in general. I find, for myself anyway that it helps to understand the history or foundation of a subject to more clearly understand present day technologies. Say you're learning about auto mechanics, it helps to know the history and discuss how a basic internal combustion engine works. In learning about that, the discussion of the Ford Model-T may come up. Even though its an old car that isn't produced anymore it is still important and relevant to the discussion. Learning about old pro-hormone products will definitely help you better understand the products of today.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone

    It does have some basic information about pro-hormones in general. I find, for myself anyway that it helps to understand the history or foundation of a subject to more clearly understand present day technologies. Say you're learning about auto mechanics, it helps to know the history and discuss how a basic internal combustion engine works. In learning about that, the discussion of the Ford Model-T may come up. Even though its an old car that isn't produced anymore it is still important and relevant to the discussion. Learning about old pro-hormone products will definitely help you better understand the products of today.
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    I am surprised this got no response.
    It is the very first post and thread on the board. It's historical if not hysterical.

    "Talk to ya!"

    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Here's an old one you can bump:

    First test thread...
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    I am surprised this got no response.
    It is the very first post and thread on the board. It's historical if not hysterical.

    "Talk to ya!"
    did he get banned for homebrew talk?
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn
    I am surprised this got no response.
    It is the very first post and thread on the board. It's historical if not hysterical.

    "Talk to ya!"
    It's a closed thread. ^
    Re-open it & I'll bump it.
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    OP was original owner. This was a homebrew board years ago. The new ownership has cultivated an entirely new community and board for the better. But those were the days.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    OP was original owner. This was a homebrew board years ago. The new ownership has cultivated an entirely new community and board for the better. But those were the days.
    I figured Manbeast (who's join date pre-dates everybody elses join date for some reason) banned him....since he was here before the board was even created. I believe Manbeast was on the comet that crashed into this site, creating it many eons ago.
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