Anyone ever suffered serious liver damage?

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  1. Is there any shred of evidence that liver supps (besides tudca) do anything at all...i mean I've never seen a liver blood panel look "good" after a methyl cycle. I'm thinking that the only way to be"safe" is use of tudca or dropping doses back down to sane dosing patterns that many have seem to abandoned "cause I got liv 52 bro, it's ayruvedic, and studied"


  2. Quote Originally Posted by mikeg313 View Post
    Yes I was. It was my second and last sd cycle. The first one went well so six months later I ran the second and that happened. Sometimes you're lucky sometimes you're not.
    Thats crazy that it was the same compound. I ran Ultra stacked w Trenazone a few months back and had ZERO issues. Best cycle ever, This time, Ultra solo does me in. Go figure.
    "If you weren't there for my struggle, don't expect to be there for my success."
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  3. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by GodofWine View Post
    Is there any shred of evidence that liver supps (besides tudca) do anything at all...i mean I've never seen a liver blood panel look "good" after a methyl cycle. I'm thinking that the only way to be"safe" is use of tudca or dropping doses back down to sane dosing patterns that many have seem to abandoned "cause I got liv 52 bro, it's ayruvedic, and studied"
    They do exist.

    Up to 50mg/d with only 800mg NAC and 600mg ALA.

    You should pay more concern to lipids IMHO.
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  4. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    You should pay more concern to lipids IMHO.
    I am going to have a thread on this up shortly.. not sure how much of an increased risk actually come from androgen use despite the changes in lipid profiles. Seems to be fairly unclear what these changes truly represent
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  5. Quote Originally Posted by mikeg313

    Yes I was. It was my second and last sd cycle. The first one went well so six months later I ran the second and that happened. Sometimes you're lucky sometimes you're not.
    Fuk. I'm gearing up for a suprdrol cycle. U hear so many mixed reveiws about this...kinda makes me think about backing down and staying natty. I remember when u posted about ur heart attack hope all is good now g
    Stress is #1 killing. Above all else
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  6. TUDCA
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  7. Quote Originally Posted by murk01

    Fuk. I'm gearing up for a suprdrol cycle. U hear so many mixed reveiws about this...kinda makes me think about backing down and staying natty. I remember when u posted about ur heart attack hope all is good now g
    Stress is #1 killing. Above all else
    Doing better now. I'm not a fan of orals but if I didn't have that experience then I'd most likely still run them. Just be careful as you can and take all the precautions. Risks are there but so are rewards. It's just luck sometimes what ya get but I'd say the odds are in your favor just not %100

  8. No, never suffered serious liver damage. I'm not a dumbass.
  9. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    I am going to have a thread on this up shortly.. not sure how much of an increased risk actually come from androgen use despite the changes in lipid profiles. Seems to be fairly unclear what these changes truly represent
    IMHO any adverse liver function that may take place in some will do so with Tylenol, Rx, alcohol, excercise and a host of other variables, that for the verty most part, once the substance is removed, usually return to healthy baseline values rather rapidly. The liver is quite resilient in that capacilty. Using precautionary protective anti-oxidant supplements tends to be effective as those liver values clearly display.

    On the otherhand the precautionary measures taken by most tend not to be as protective to lipids. In regard to lipids I would be more concerned because there can tend to be a greater delay in return to healthy normal range of lipid values, if at all, in some users. IMHO lipids produce greater risk to overall health.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    I'm not a dumbass.
    Not sure if srs? Haha just kidding, but I am sure you have looked into the matter do you have any other thoughts on oral aas and liver damage?

  11. Can someone explain to me about lipids? Or link me, also don't know what TUDCA is, I'm about to start first cycle (helladrol) which is supposed to be mild but I do have concerns about liver damage. Also though I rarely drink alcohol anymore, maybe one or two drinks every month or two.
    "Lifting and Game of Thrones share the same calendar, there's only two seasons: cutting and bulking. And guess what? Winter's comin' so it's time to bulk up!"
    -Dom Mazzetti

  12. Quote Originally Posted by SuperPro
    Can someone explain to me about lipids? Or link me, also don't know what TUDCA is, I'm about to start first cycle (helladrol) which is supposed to be mild but I do have concerns about liver damage. Also though I rarely drink alcohol anymore, maybe one or two drinks every month or two.
    There's some threads around this board on TUDCA.
    Hardcore Purus Labs {Rep}
    Lift the fücking weight from the floor, or leave it on the ground. The thoughts are supposed to be daunting. The pain is meant to be tormenting.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1

    There's some threads around this board on TUDCA.
    Yeah I'm going through some but so far only finding stuff about how to dose it or how it compares to other things.
    "Lifting and Game of Thrones share the same calendar, there's only two seasons: cutting and bulking. And guess what? Winter's comin' so it's time to bulk up!"
    -Dom Mazzetti

  14. Maybe someone can chime in for me, but all I'm running is my cycle and TUDCA, & baby chewable aspirin, I actually put a hold on Organ Shield (which has NAC, Milk Thistle) cause I think I was getting more head aches from Organ Shield.

    So TUDCA is effective enough by itself correct?
    Hardcore Purus Labs {Rep}
    Lift the fücking weight from the floor, or leave it on the ground. The thoughts are supposed to be daunting. The pain is meant to be tormenting.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by SuperPro View Post
    Can someone explain to me about lipids? Or link me, also don't know what TUDCA is, I'm about to start first cycle (helladrol) which is supposed to be mild but I do have concerns about liver damage. Also though I rarely drink alcohol anymore, maybe one or two drinks every month or two.
    lipids is cholesterol levels. Most orals drop your hdl significantly while raising your LDL. long term leads to arterial stiffening, plaque, etc

  16. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    IMHO any adverse liver function that may take place in some will do so with Tylenol, Rx, alcohol, excercise and a host of other variables, that for the verty most part, once the substance is removed, usually return to healthy baseline values rather rapidly. The liver is quite resilient in that capacilty. Using precautionary protective anti-oxidant supplements tends to be effective as those liver values clearly display.
    I agree completely but overall I think the hepatotoxicity from oral steroids have been exaggerated as simply using AST/ALT ratios (which is what most use to gauge) can be misleading

    Anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity: is it overstated?


    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    On the otherhand the precautionary measures taken by most tend not to be as protective to lipids. In regard to lipids I would be more concerned because there can tend to be a greater delay in return to healthy normal range of lipid values, if at all, in some users. IMHO lipids produce greater risk to overall health.
    There is no doubt that androgens have a significant effect on our lipids however these androgen induced declines in HDL does not automatically have to be assumed to be proatherogenic but instead may be the result of accelerated reverse cholesterol transport and not necessarily equal an increased CVD risk.

    Androgens increase the activity of hepatic triglyceride lipase (HTGL) (PMID:4033402) and it is believed that HTGL activity is pretty protective against CVD risk (PMID:7853704) which then ask the question, does the reduced amount of HDL particles one experiences as a result from androgen use actually lead to an increased CVD risk considering the protective activity of some of the HDL fractions are not reduced?
    PESCIENCE.COM

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  17. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh

    I agree completely but overall I think the hepatotoxicity from oral steroids have been exaggerated as simply using AST/ALT ratios (which is what most use to gauge) can be misleading

    Anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity: is it overstated?

    There is no doubt that androgens have a significant effect on our lipids however these androgen induced declines in HDL does not automatically have to be assumed to be proatherogenic but instead may be the result of accelerated reverse cholesterol transport and not necessarily equal an increased CVD risk.

    Androgens increase the activity of hepatic triglyceride lipase (HTGL) (PMID:4033402) and it is believed that HTGL activity is pretty protective against CVD risk (PMID:7853704) which then ask the question, does the reduced amount of HDL particles one experiences as a result from androgen use actually lead to an increased CVD risk considering the protective activity of some of the HDL fractions are not reduced?
    I need to know what this means in laymans terms, am I too concerned with HDL reduction

  18. Quote Originally Posted by jaydollars View Post
    I need to know what this means in laymans terms, am I too concerned with HDL reduction
    No you arent, the take away wasnt to suggest that we should make light of HDL reductions as they are definitely negatively correlated with CVD and HDL does have a protective effect, rather that the implication this androgen induced reduction has isnt as clear as it seems.
    PESCIENCE.COM

    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

  19. Quote Originally Posted by SPS View Post
    but I am sure you have looked into the matter do you have any other thoughts on oral aas and liver damage?
    I have looked into it.

    I think a lot of factors will come into play here, with the biggest one being genetics.

    people dont generally tend to live healthy lifestyles, then they want to go and use steroids, add in genetic factors, and you could have a problem.

    I dont really have any other thoughts on the subject.

  20. Any ideas on how to keep HDL up while on cycle?

  21. Quote Originally Posted by jaydollars View Post
    Any ideas on how to keep HDL up while on cycle?
    fish oil helps, looks like ursolic acid helps too.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1
    Maybe someone can chime in for me, but all I'm running is my cycle and TUDCA, & baby chewable aspirin, I actually put a hold on Organ Shield (which has NAC, Milk Thistle) cause I think I was getting more head aches from Organ Shield.

    So TUDCA is effective enough by itself correct?
    Bump for response....
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    Lift the fücking weight from the floor, or leave it on the ground. The thoughts are supposed to be daunting. The pain is meant to be tormenting.

  23. I guess one way to think about it would be comparing it to drinking liquor. Some people drink stupid high amounts of liquor, some people take stupid amounts of oral AAS/PH. If someone drinks liquor till they black out each day for 8 weeks then I'd be willing to wager they have an increased risk of liver damage over your average Joe. Same thing with methyls, your risk is going to increase the higher the dose and length.

    That being said I've probably read as many threads advocating for the safety of oral AAS/PH lately as I have threads saying that they are extremely bad for you. I'm not saying there is no degree of risk, but I think that it's probably lower than some people believe. Just look at the number of people taking oral AAS/PH compared to the number who have had liver problems. I know a few users in RL who have had no problems as of yet, and I know there are a few or more on these boards as well.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by mikeg313

    with a stupid stripper that used to date a buddy. She was hot as **** but horrible in bed and called me daddy oh daddy the whole time. I remember thinking this sucks and had to think about fuking my gf to bust a nut.
    A hot sexy stripper f.ucks you, calling you daddy oh daddy.
    I feel your pain.That must've been horrible for you.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1

    Bump for response....
    I have seen only limited blood work on TUDCA, but it keeps liver enzymes way down, never saw anything as effective

  26. Quote Originally Posted by jaydollars

    I have seen only limited blood work on TUDCA, but it keeps liver enzymes way down, never saw anything as effective
    Thx.
    Hardcore Purus Labs {Rep}
    Lift the fücking weight from the floor, or leave it on the ground. The thoughts are supposed to be daunting. The pain is meant to be tormenting.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by jiggero View Post
    A hot sexy stripper f.ucks you, calling you daddy oh daddy.
    I feel your pain.That must've been horrible for you.
    Lmfao

    Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk 2
  28. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperPro View Post
    I guess one way to think about it would be comparing it to drinking liquor. Some people drink stupid high amounts of liquor, some people take stupid amounts of oral AAS/PH. If someone drinks liquor till they black out each day for 8 weeks then I'd be willing to wager they have an increased risk of liver damage over your average Joe. Same thing with methyls, your risk is going to increase the higher the dose and length.

    That being said I've probably read as many threads advocating for the safety of oral AAS/PH lately as I have threads saying that they are extremely bad for you. I'm not saying there is no degree of risk, but I think that it's probably lower than some people believe. Just look at the number of people taking oral AAS/PH compared to the number who have had liver problems. I know a few users in RL who have had no problems as of yet, and I know there are a few or more on these boards as well.
    That is because everything your read on the internet is true!

  29. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn
    That is because everything your read on the internet is true!
    True dat homez
    "Lifting and Game of Thrones share the same calendar, there's only two seasons: cutting and bulking. And guess what? Winter's comin' so it's time to bulk up!"
    -Dom Mazzetti

  30. Still no proof that these so called support supplements can actually prevent damage to your liver caused by oral anabolic steroids. Just because someone has gone through a cycle with cycle support while taking a harsh oral steroid and their liver blood test results came out fine doesn't prove that the "cycle support" was/is the reason that the liver showed minimal damage or impact from the steroid. That same person may just react that way to that particular steroid. So even if he/she hadn't taken the cycle support product the results would have or could have been the same. The only way to prove it would be to have the same person take the same steroid without the cycle support. Still though there are so many variables that can effect your liver so it is almost impossible to prove.
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